Electric guitars turned down in the mix

Not sure if there is a thread for this one already or if it is a common problem.

Last Sunday was another one of those Sundays where electric guitars were barely heard through the mains. There were two of us on guitar that Sunday and both couldn't be heard apparently.

We had a guest P&W band a few months ago with their own guitar player and he was coming through the mix perfectly that day. I'm starting to think it's my playing is the reason for me being turned down.

Anyone else experiencing this?

common problem ... although after I recorded a few Sundays (from the pews) and let our leader listen to it, it seems to be getting a lot better. i suppose that he had a chat with the sound personnel about it. i doubt it's the playing, some sound guys at church don't like the sound of electric guitars. one of our sound guy even admitted that he's afraid that somebody from the congregation might complain about him if the guitars are "loud"

I also highly doubt it is your playing. Most likely a sound man issue.

It's pretty common, it seems.

I'm usually in the mix, but the sound is entirely different from what I get back through the Aviom. Plus, there's one tech who sets gating and compression to the point it sounds like "boink, boink, boink" in the mains. I'm pretty sure he learned everything he knows about sound from YouTube. And when it does sound all right, and the next week it doesn't, and I ask, what settings did you have everything at last week, there's a blank look. Maddening.

The electric guitar is the instrument most often perceived as offensive on the church stage. An EG with OD on at 90dB "sounds" way louder than a grand piano at 90dB, to people over 60. :-) So, as above, I'd guess sound men are a little scared to bring them up in the mix.

One thing that could be done is to associate the live mix with the recording; suggest the sound men have in mind a target of getting the mix to sound like the released MP3. If it's a guitar-driven song, then the guitar better be driving Sunday morning.

It's so tough - most of these problems have more to do with people's feelings than with solving the problem.

I guess I feel somewhat better that other people are experiencing the same thing.

It's funny how the WL tells you to "go nuts" with the electric guitar on some parts but you aren't even heard. It's so bad I could be playing in a totally different key and it wouldn't matter except to the people on stage.

So many people think the music is for THEM, they don't get it. Who are you playing for, yourself, the congregation, or God? We want to sound our best, but clarify your motives before you open a can of worms....Then, talk to the WL, its only gonna change if you can get them to see your point of view. Talk to the sound guys, ask them why. Is it because of people complaining? Then they need to go to a traditional service, not a Praise and Worship service. Sound guy may need to understand that.

I'm curious if the same attitude would apply is a lead singer's Mic was turned down. It only seems to happen with guitars.

FWIW...

A lot of times, sound technicians are excellent with the technology and sound boards. But they do not get trained in the musicality of sound. They need to know if a song's main instrument is electric guitar, acoustic guitar, keyboard, flute, etc.

Unfortunately, the WL is often in the top of the mix regardless of what instrument they play.

I guess I'm pretty fortunate to have landed on a team in which the main sound guy is a great guitar player and the WL is a humble vocalist. I hear myself great in the monitor and the house sound is nicely balanced.

My church has a rotation for everybody, so I usually play with a tech that turns up my guitar really loud (sometimes I don't even bother with Avioms when he mixes). That usually makes the keys guys frustrated because it drowns them out. He's one of the lesser experienced sound guys but his mixes are getting better.

Then there are weeks when I have barely heard other players in the mix when other techs are running sound. So it usually comes down to who's mixing on any given Sunday that determines how good the band will sound in the house mix.

When harmonies were introduced to plain chant people objected, nothing changes, electric guitars are of the devil in some peoples minds just as harmony was. It's all to do with association, electric guitars have an image problem with some people because they associate them with the less salubrious sections of the music industry and that makes them think that they are toooooo loud or toooooo intrusive. Other instruments may have the same decibel output or even more but they have a more acceptable image. Pianos are good because Beethoven played one. Organs are good because Bach played one. Electric guitars are bad because Keef plays one.
Solution is simple, learn a bit of classical, or semiclassical music, something that sounds Bachish or Handelish; turn down the gain and reverb; turn up the middle tone and get a nice mellow sound. Wait for the appropriate time before or after a service and gently play it. Warm up time before a service is good. People will suddenly realise that an electric guitar can play "proper" music. Works every time, try it.

I often joke about this, but it rings true a LOT of the time.

Sound guys turn up the lead singer, drums and bass. Then everyone else is shut down.

All of our Sunday 1st service is video'd and put on the web. I always watch what was put up as I don't know from my aviom what the mix is in the house. I've spent hours and hours with a second electric player where we split a lead. He takes the first distorted, fat part and I pickup on the tele twangy part. In our practice, it's perfect. In the mix, the sound guy can't deal with that and we end up with one electric up and the other off. I gotta think that for the sound guy, it's a bit embarassing at the end of the service when the "wrong" guitar is turned down and has the lead to intro the song, the solo and the outro. I've watched the vids and this happens a LOT.

Where it's interesting is when the WL is singing and doing the background rythem while I'm holding down all the "real" guitar parts. I'm still the one turned down because....well....I'm not the WL.

In the end, I just do my best and am VERY sure that my tone and range are waaaaay out of the way of the acoustic and any other guitarist. Being anywhere similar is a sure way for the sound guy to take you out of the mix.

I always had the suspicion that my Tele was not in the house mix (I could tell it was not in the monitors). I always just tilted my amp toward me so I could hear it, since I definitely wouldn't be hearing it from the monitors.

My suspicion was confirmed when I had to run sound one week and found my channel turned almost all the way down in the monitors and the mix. Another time I made a recording from out in front and the Tele was no where to be found in the mix.

The bandleader's son is the soundguy, and her husband is the bass player. She plays piano and sings. All I can hear are piano, bass, and group leader vocals.

Last week one of our other guitarist set up the sound and the mix, and I could actually hear my guitar out of the monitors louder than it was coming from my amp. Soundguy showed up right before the service and put everything back the way it was, though.:roll:

Our soundman doesnt like modern electric guitar so he dials me out. I went to using a direct box from the line out from my amp but we sound check with the direct box set with 2db pad so when a solo or intro requires some punch I switch to a zero db pad and bingo, a perfect boost. The soundman is monitoring the radio mix via headphones and doesnt pay any attention to FOH mix when we are live LOL.

Well Guys I have done P&W for 18 years.My older days I played my Boogies with effects and as they called it "GRUNGY' sound.It was always up and down with the electric guitar.
That was a great band but ended up splitting the church over music personalities.I came back in the past few years with a 5E3 deluxe I built and just play clean.I try to sneak in little melody fills and keep the vol just right.I have had so many older people come up after and tell me how much they love my playing.A lot of times those comments kept me from packing it in.So I guess the moral is get a nice tone with a fenderish circuit and dont be too loud that seems to be a place you wont find too much criticism.Things have been fine now for years.And I never hear that word GRUNGY sounding {distortion}

Well Guys I have done P&W for 18 years.My older days I played my Boogies with effects and as they called it "GRUNGY' sound.It was always up and down with the electric guitar.
That was a great band but ended up splitting the church over music personalities.I came back in the past few years with a 5E3 deluxe I built and just play clean.I try to sneak in little melody fills and keep the vol just right.I have had so many older people come up after and tell me how much they love my playing.A lot of times those comments kept me from packing it in.So I guess the moral is get a nice tone with a fenderish circuit and dont be too loud that seems to be a place you wont find too much criticism.Things have been fine now for years.And I never hear that word GRUNGY sounding {distortion}

I usually have my Hot Rod Deluxe, pedals and either my tele or strat when I play. I guess I'm half way to sounding "Fenderish". All I need is to dial in some good tone. :)

Well Guys I have done P&W for 18 years.My older days I played my Boogies with effects and as they called it "GRUNGY' sound.It was always up and down with the electric guitar.
That was a great band but ended up splitting the church over music personalities.I came back in the past few years with a 5E3 deluxe I built and just play clean.I try to sneak in little melody fills and keep the vol just right.I have had so many older people come up after and tell me how much they love my playing.A lot of times those comments kept me from packing it in.So I guess the moral is get a nice tone with a fenderish circuit and dont be too loud that seems to be a place you wont find too much criticism.Things have been fine now for years.And I never hear that word GRUNGY sounding {distortion}

Hmmm... that works for you. That's great. But I can't imagine having zero distortion. We do tons of songs that call for it.

Basically a Worship Pastor (and/or elders) decide who they are trying to reach. Anyone has to know that you can't be pleasing to everyone.

I also think this is true (to put it very (maybe too) simply, in terms of volume):
- If someone in the church thinks it's too loud/energetic, they will complain.
- If someone in the church thinks it's too quiet/lame, they will stop coming.

No one ever complains "please turn it up". If that's their position, they just assume that's the way it is, and there's no way to convince the church to change. But the other camp (the "too louders") feel that they can indeed change things by speaking up. Strange dynamic.

It seems there are a lot of folks commenting on a sound man's aversion to the electric guitar for whatever reason. This is definitely a problem. If I found this to be the case, I would ask him/her about it. If I didn't receive a reasonable response, I would tell whoever is in charge of my issue. If it doesn't get fixed then, well...now it's either play guitar for yourself and God or quit as my options.
Funny thing, in our church during traditional worship, the organist blasts our pipe organ which I find just as if not more irritating than a loud guitar and I'm 62 years old.

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Funny thing, in our church during traditional worship, the organist blasts our pipe organ which I find just as if not more irritating than a loud guitar and I'm 62 years old.

Same here. Our organ is way louder than the praise band could ever dream of being.

Same here. Our organ is way louder than the praise band could ever dream of being.

this. there, now I feel better.

I can totally identify with the idea of the soundguy turning down the electric guitars because they don't like or understand the sound and the role within the music. I've been turned down in the past because my guitar 'sounded like it was distorting'!

We've got a good mix now with a PA team run by one of our lead guitarists. For most of the music we play, the lead guitar should be very clearly heard and the acoustic should be a supporting rhythm instrument that just blends into the overall mix when everyone is playing. Too often it seems like church soundguys (possibly in fear of the congregation) turn the acoustic right up and the electric down because acoustics are less controversial!

(I say this as someone who plays both acoustic and electric, and would want the electric louder than me when I'm playing acoustic.)

Link below pertaining to today's church audio.

http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/forecast-future-church-audio

It is stated in the article "The current state of church audio is not good." It hits the nail on the head, imo.

Makki,

If it was your playing that was turning your down you shouldn't be on the team :) talk to your band leader, I'm fighting this with my sound guys right now.

They mix the piano too far forward and the vocals too hot... It's a pretty common problem in the church. But communication is the key.

Link below pertaining to today's church audio.

http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/forecast-future-church-audio

It is stated in the article "The current state of church audio is not good." It hits the nail on the head, imo.

Thanks for this. I will share with a few other people who I know are experiencing the same issue.

Makki,

If it was your playing that was turning your down you shouldn't be on the team :) talk to your band leader, I'm fighting this with my sound guys right now.

They mix the piano too far forward and the vocals too hot... It's a pretty common problem in the church. But communication is the key.

Yup. Usually keys (piano and synth) and vocals are what fill the mix in the mains and on stage. Sometimes even the clarinet is louder than me.

I'll just keep soldiering on but I'll also try to figure out a way of bringing up the subject with leadership. I'm still new to the team and they may not take my input on the matter right away. Plus I don't want it to sound like the egotistical guitar player who does nothing but complain.

Yeah, the piano and the vocals. The truth is they may way it that way and you are just filling in the sound subtlety.

It may also be that the sound guys need a talking to :)

Not sure if there is a thread for this one already or if it is a common problem.

Last Sunday was another one of those Sundays where electric guitars were barely heard through the mains. There were two of us on guitar that Sunday and both couldn't be heard apparently.

We had a guest P&W band a few months ago with their own guitar player and he was coming through the mix perfectly that day. I'm starting to think it's my playing is the reason for me being turned down.

Anyone else experiencing this?

I go through this every sunday.

This past sunday I was the only instrument and they still wouldn't turn me up until I made a stink.
But it doesn't matter anymore...I know that I don't matter to anyone.

I'm curious if the same attitude would apply is a lead singer's Mic was turned down. It only seems to happen with guitars.

#TRUTH!!!!

Same here. Our organ is way louder than the praise band could ever dream of being.

Same thing in my church.
The vocals can barely be heard over the keyboards.
Guitar is almost non-existent in the recordings.

Link below pertaining to today's church audio.

http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/forecast-future-church-audio

It is stated in the article "The current state of church audio is not good." It hits the nail on the head, imo.

Great and accurate article!
I guess it shut me up too. Those fixes will never happen in my church...everything is volunteer. And I won't get any better as a "Musician" because I only practice by myself to Contemporary Christian music that has tabs (no tabs or chords for gospel music) or at rehearsal where I'm pretty much ignored and left to figure things out on my own.

It's a downward spiral.
Man I need a better church if I'm gonna keep playing. I need to get out of COGIC so bad...

i love our sound guy, hes pretty good


i dont mind so much if im low in the mix. after all on that stage it is not about me, im merely there to lead others into worship

Great and accurate article!
I guess it shut me up too. Those fixes will never happen in my church...everything is volunteer. And I won't get any better as a "Musician" because I only practice by myself to Contemporary Christian music that has tabs (no tabs or chords for gospel music) or at rehearsal where I'm pretty much ignored and left to figure things out on my own.

It's a downward spiral.
Man I need a better church if I'm gonna keep playing. I need to get out of COGIC so bad...

I've felt the same way a few times so I can relate. It's almost as if it doesn't matter if I was playing or not.

A church I used to go to was somewhat better. The sound was kinda hit or miss but I was playing with a bunch of guys who shared the same musical interests as me. Our church broke up so we all went our separate ways.

The last Sunday I played, I missed them even more.

i dont mind so much if im low in the mix. after all on that stage it is not about me, im merely there to lead others into worship

maybe it's just me, but I don't quite get this. so if others don't hear what you're doing, how is that leading them into worship. you might as well drop the props and raise up your hands.

Same thing in my church.
The vocals can barely be heard over the keyboards.
Guitar is almost non-existent in the recordings.

Something to consider is that when they mixed the sound your guitar was loud enough from stage volume...

But for you guys who feel unwanted, I feel for you, and encourage you to be humbly honest with the worship pastor.

Link below pertaining to today's church audio.

http://www.behindthemixer.com/content/forecast-future-church-audio

It is stated in the article "The current state of church audio is not good." It hits the nail on the head, imo.

Yeah, that nailed it! How do we share that info with the sound guy?

I've felt the same way a few times so I can relate. It's almost as if it doesn't matter if I was playing or not.

A church I used to go to was somewhat better. The sound was kinda hit or miss but I was playing with a bunch of guys who shared the same musical interests as me. Our church broke up so we all went our separate ways.

The last Sunday I played, I missed them even more.

Oh man, that's horrible.
If it were me, I would find all those guys and start a band.

maybe it's just me, but I don't quite get this. so if others don't hear what you're doing, how is that leading them into worship. you might as well drop the props and raise up your hands.

EXACTLY!!
I've never understood the whole "It's not about you" frame of mind.
If I'm playing an instrument shouldn't I be heard?
If I'm not going to be heard, shouldn't I sit down?

What's the point of being a musician when you don't make any "AUDIBLE" music!?!?

maybe it's just me, but I don't quite get this. so if others don't hear what you're doing, how is that leading them into worship. you might as well drop the props and raise up your hands.

I've come close to suggesting they get a cardboard cutout of a guitar player and put it up on stage. The sound would be the same.

maybe it's just me, but I don't quite get this. so if others don't hear what you're doing, how is that leading them into worship. you might as well drop the props and raise up your hands.

sorry if i wasnt clear, i can understand the upset when not heard at all, in that situation something definitely needs to change, maybe talk to senior non musical leadership about it

I feel like there are three general situations represented here.

1. Those who are the victims of sound men... Their band leaders want them heard but the sound guys (for many possible reasons) don't. This is the situation i'm in, both as a band leader and as an electric player when i'm not leading the band. This is where good, honest and open communication comes in. Be honest, have dialogue, and maybe don't do it during sound check before service.

2. The guys who's church wants an electric guitar player, but it's not the emphasis... Most of the music I listen to is guitar driven, but that doesn't mean the music your church band does is. A lot of churches are piano driven, many others have acoustic folk in their roots. The is where the "it's not about you" or "are you here to serve?" comes into play. Maybe you're not up in the mix because you're wanted in the mix to fill in the sound, but the music isn't the music you're used to.

3. Then there's the 3rd group, those who aren't wanted... I feel for you guys. I'm not sure how you got in the church band, you may not be sure yourself, but you're there and you feel like you might as well not be. That sucks, that really sucks.

Should you leave your church over it? Maybe and No.

No because a church should be a family. I still come to christmas dinner even though my mom insists on playing that terrible Josh Groban christmas album. (Haven't you ever heard of Bing Crosby, Nat King Cole, or even Amy Grant? :) ) No because maybe God doesn't want you to serve (for now) in music at church and maybe you're supposed to teach kids in the sunday school or help mix the soundboard. Church should be a family and if you leave so quickly over this you weren't part of the family to begin with.

Maybe is that you find that the form and expression of your church don't mesh with yours. Maybe that's part of the problem in the band experience for you. You come from a Pentecostal background and you're serving/playing a baptist church, or you only play Classic Rock, John Fogerty style leads and the church you're at is looking for something more along the lines of John Tesh.

just some thoughts.

Great insight Snowwizard!

I saw a good church band last week. The guitarist had a 335, an amp with 2 12's, a mic in front of each speaker...couldn't hear a lick. Of course they had 2 keyboards, 5 string bass, a couple horns and a small choir. He looked like he was playing a lot of lead, but low in the mix. I guess you have to get on the sound person's good side!

One additional comment. The guitar player(s) can sometimes be guilty of not knowing how to contribute to a given song just like a drummer. My guitar amp is set is fairly loud on stage and probably through the sound board, but I also "tame" my parts to fit the song. We are lucky to have a sound man who knows us and knows music. I never worry about whether I can be heard out front because he knows what to do with the guitars.