Worship Pastor wants no amps on platform

I've been playing in my church praise band for nine years. We play on Sunday mornings with a drummer miked behind a plexi screen, a synthesizer, a keyboard for piano tones, a bass, an acoustic, and me on electric. Also, there are eight singers on mikes, and around twenty or so unmiked choir members. Everything runs to a FOH mixer where our sound guy does his best to please thirty-plus people on platform with the monitor mix. I am currently playing through my fender G-DEC 30 lll. I use the line out to a DI box, then to FOH. It's small enough that I can put it on an amp stand and point it right at my head like a hotspot monitor. That way I don't have to turn it up too much to hear myself. Not the ideal setup, but I was making it work.
After several years of talking about it, my WL decided to go to the silent stage concept last fall, meaning no amps, take what you can get through the aforementioned monitor mix.
Back then, he was all set to buy in ear monitor sets for the musicians, but then he talked to another local WL who had them, but didn't like them, so he backed out.
At my WL's request, I am tethered to my amp by a pair of headphones(inserting the headphones kills the speaker). I put one over my left ear to hear my guitar and leave the right one off so I can hear everything else. This is not good.
I love the Lord. I feel I am called to play in church. I know it's not about me. Having said all that, I am so frustrated by this setup I am thinking of quitting the praise band and serving on the grass cutting crew.
I have spoken at length with my WL numerous times about this. He doesn't want amps on stage because they drown out the monitor mix and the singers can't hear. Period
Maybe I just needed to vent, but still, I would appreciate any advice.

The singers have to be able to hear. The guitar player has to have an acceptable sound to be able to play at his highest level. Sometimes the twain cannot meet with amps on stage. We just went back to amps but we were direct to the board out of our pedal boards for a long time. The key is in-ear monitors for everybody. I think your WL should get a second and third opinion. In my last church, Shure came in and did a sound reinforcement seminar and educated us on IEMs. I believe it's the way to go in church because of the notoriously bad acoustics and the notoriously inexperienced sound techs. If you can't go for that, what if you put your amp between you and the singers and aimed it at your head like you were doing? It should help them be able to hear better.

I think there should be some leeway. It's not like you are running a Marshall fullstack. Maybe use a Fender Vibro Champ?

You hit a hot button here. I feel for you. We've got IEMs, but the "technicians" running the board get my signal back to the Aviom too hot about 80% of the time, and I'm being charitable, so the sound of my guitar is like a 1960s transistor radio with a broken speaker. Might as well not have a monitor at all.

I've seriously thought about getting a Y-out of the monitor feed, taking that, and the signal from my POD into my own 2-channel mixer, and using that simply to give me a monitor mix that I can control. That's my next step, though I've started doing Sunday breakfast crew once every other month to get a break - I too am tempted sometimes to just do only that.

I really believe that IEMs can solve 99% of problems, but they come with their own set of technical learnings and challenges. Some people just will never figure it out, it seems.

Check out a Rolls PM351 DI box... it's got inputs with individual headphone volume controls for your instrument and the main mix, and the price isn't too bad (about $80):

http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

Check out a Rolls PM351 DI box... it's got inputs with individual headphone volume controls for your instrument and the main mix, and the price isn't too bad (about $80):

http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

I used something like this in the studio recently. It worked great! Had five volume knobs, the way it was configured one was a master volume, one was vocals, one was rhythm guitar, one was the bass, and one was my instrument. I heard the tone, mix, etc however the engineer had it set on the board, but I had complete control over the volume of each instrument and the vocals I heard in my headphones so I could mix it to my needs. This is what I am looking at for when I (occasionally and by my own choice) use my POD at church. Hang in there brother, keep praying and playing!

I think there should be some leeway. It's not like you are running a Marshall fullstack. Maybe use a Fender Vibro Champ?

The G DEC Is about the same size. It's about no sound being generated on stage except the monitors.

Check out a Rolls PM351 DI box... it's got inputs with individual headphone volume controls for your instrument and the main mix, and the price isn't too bad (about $80):

http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

This looks great! Thanks!

I'm taking a break right now because of similar frustrations. This zero stage volume business is a bunch of nonsense for a live band. If volume us that much of an issue, perhaps backing tracks should be considered instead of a band.

I believe that we're supposed to do the best that we can when we serve and for that to happen musicians NEED to be able to hear what they're playing, this goes for everyone! Not being able to hear would be like driving to drive with a blindfold!

I've had many such conversations about the level of my amp etc but I still can't hear very well, to the point when everyone’s playing I can't even hear when I'm playing the wrong chord/note!

Without IEMs (which we don't have and I think would probably solve most of the problems) I've had to make a couple adjustments to the placement of my amp which has helped. What I do now is that I stand as far away from my amp as possible with the amp facing the side and I tend to stand in front of the stage (so the amp is elevated) which isn't much of a problem for us as when there's a full band on there's always a couple people that don't fit on anyway, normally WL and singers!

When I used to use combos I had an amp stand which also helped a huge amount!

Try and find a compromise and only if you really can’t then quit but make sure that you make it clear that it’s simply because you’re unable to play at your best and therefore give back to the Lord your best without being able to hear yourself play!

In the light of IEM's, the problems the other church probably had was poor earbuds. I've used IEM's at the church I play at, and if you don't have them in right, it can sound bad. You will always sacrifice sound quality moving to IEM's. Unless you spend good money on custom made ones to fit your ears. If you don't, it can feel like your blasting sound at yourself with your fingers in you ears. That is the only issue I have had with them, but that could be solved with 2-3 hundred dollar custom ear buds, :smile:. Or wear straight up headphones, though for the singers that would look really strange.
You could do only IEM's for the band members, and give the singers actual monitors, that can work great. I would say IEM's are the way to go, but do a hybrid system. Your stage volume will greatly decrease, which can be great!

I usually play in our youth service (as i am a youth), and we have amps on stage, and monitors, :grin: 100 db bliss! I've been asked to turn up once or twice, I know, sounds crazy.

I would give the WL what he asked for, take my amp off the stage, put it in my car, and not come back. The entire idea of "no sound" being generated on stage is stupid from the get-go. Music IS sound. You can't make music if you don't make sound. "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord".

If all you want is digital algorithms and electrons moving through wires, right up until the point it hits the mains speakers, just play recordings.

However this turns out, do not use that monitor setup (headphones half on/half off). That will damage your hearing.

Your WL talked to another WL who didn't like in-ears, so he backed out? Did he talk to another guitarist who uses your setup? In-ears are being used everywhere now - especially in churches. No, they are not as fun as wedges, but if he wants a silent stage, removing the guitar amp is only 10% of the problem if he's running wedges for 30 people.

Did you discuss the option of having more than one monitor channel? Do the tech people understand the board well enough that you're confident they can't run another channel for you?

You've talked this all out, I'm sure, so under the circumstances, I'd say you'd have to quit the band. He's making it very hard for you to stay, and if it's important you stay, he'll compromise.

You sound like you have a servant's heart - way to go. You already know it's not about you. But your hearing health isn't worth being able to play guitar on Sunday. If you present it that way, he'll understand you have to quit.

I absolutely HATE, LOATHE, ABHOR, and every other word you can muster, this form of playing...

That said, its not my show, its the Worship Leader's show, and as long as he calls the shots (and the check don't bounce) I do as he says.

Besides, the gig is NOT about what you, I, or any other musician wants - the gig is a supporting feature of the message. I have to kick myself in the butt sometimes to remind myself of this, but that is why we are all there...or it should be.

That makes all the headaches, heartaches, and such much easier to deal with - for me anyway -- remember the ultimate reason why we are all there.

All depends upon whether the WL has the belief that he/she is part of a team serving God or is a little god whose word is law. If the former then they should be able to discuss the problem and come up with a solution, if the latter then they need a swift kick up the rear. Musicians have to hear what they are playing irrespective of what they instrument is. There are hundreds of solutions to hearing what you are playing and most involve a bit of compromise on everyones part. I have never liked the idea of a "clean" stage free of all amps as it seems to be a denial that amps are a component of an electric instrument just as much as the strings are. If the objection is purely visual - then stick them behind a curtain. Our music Director, we don't have a WL. understands that I need to vary adjustments of my amp to suit particular songs and knows that it is my responsibility as the musician playing the instrument to do that, not the responsibility of the mixer operator. Therefore my amp has to be near me and where I can hear it, so it is. In the same way that the piano player has to have the lid of the piano open sometimes so has to have the freedom to do that even though it might be visually objectionable. We are not there to suit the whims of anyone person, leader or not, but to produce music that glorifies God, so what we have on stage and how we use it is all aimed to that.

At my WL's request, I am tethered to my amp by a pair of headphones(inserting the headphones kills the speaker). I put one over my left ear to hear my guitar and leave the right one off so I can hear everything else. This is not good.
I love the Lord. I feel I am called to play in church. I know it's not about me. Having said all that, I am so frustrated by this setup I am thinking of quitting the praise band and serving on the grass cutting crew.
I have spoken at length with my WL numerous times about this. He doesn't want amps on stage because they drown out the monitor mix and the singers can't hear. Period
Maybe I just needed to vent, but still, I would appreciate any advice.

You know, normally I would say hang in there and just remember why we do what we do, but you are right to be frustrated and concerned in this case. The worship leader absolutely has to provide in-ears or a monitor mix that allows you to hear what you are playing to accomplish what he wants to do. It has already been said, but can't be repeated enough. The way that you are being asked to play now is a recipe for hearing damage. It may simply be that your worship leader hasn’t taken the time to educate himself sufficiently to know that it is potentially dangerous. By all means, inform him. In this case, I you have grounds to object and refuse to play under those circumstances.

If he is willing to go with proper In-ears, by all means give it a try. Our church made the transition a few years back. While as a guitarist, I do miss the sound of my amp directly behind me, I have adjusted to the sound of my guitar in the monitors and can’t overstate how great it is to get just the right mix with in-ears

I would give the WL what he asked for, take my amp off the stage, put it in my car, and not come back. The entire idea of "no sound" being generated on stage is stupid from the get-go. Music IS sound. You can't make music if you don't make sound. "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord".

If all you want is digital algorithms and electrons moving through wires, right up until the point it hits the mains speakers, just play recordings.

This is why we have our amps on stage in order for me to get a proper sound I need to turn up I was thinking of placing a speaker in an Isolation box to get more tone.

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You definitely need to go to some sort of iem set up ( look at behringer if price is a concern) if uou want to go to a silent set up.

985,

I'm going to come at this as a church's music director. If it were me I would love the communication from you on what you are thinking, just not on Sunday. :) email, call? Coffee. Tell him where you are at, what you are getting from him and talk out a solution.

30 people on stage? Wow! Too many IMHO but wow :)

Stage volume is "the constant battle"

Part of the problem is the sound guys... A lot of them are big hearted servants, but they just don't have the production skill to mix for a large venue.

Part of is is band leaders like me, having too many players and not enough monitors.

Part of the problems is this idea that church's need to mix like a recording (plexi shields, etc) instead of a live venue.

985, here's an idea... There has to be a way to have your headphones in as a monitor the way a lot of drummers do.

Rent a plexi, dime it, leave it outside

Rent a plexi, dime it, leave it outside

Haha best answer yet,... :P

Shure 535 IEMs . . . an Eden WTDI . . . and as a bassist, I need to hear and feel the bass. If the Pastor or WL won't let me use an amp on stage . . . they can find another bassist . . . sorry, it's not a God thing, it's a matter of "if you want me to play, I pick the equipment I need to get the job done." Once playing, then it becomes a God thing!

Rent a plexi, dime it, leave it outside

+1

I did 7 years in a full pentecostal PW group, 4 services/week, countless outreach and choir events.. If you are using a small amp, you are not the problem,unless you are not telling the truth and are playing real loud. If the singers can't hear because of you then the platform is not set up correctly for the large group and/or the sound guy is not doing his job. PERIOD.

You may want to consider placing your amp on the floor facing you, like a monitor, tilted back, if you are not already doing this. It will be no louder than a monitor...

Worship platforms with multiple singers is very difficult and if the monitors/monitor mix is not correct it will fail.

I actually suspect something else is going on...if you can barely hear your guitar then I doubt anyone else can either...what do your PW band mates say, you are too loud or no big deal because that's the pudding right there...If they say you are too loud then you are, if they say you are not..then you are not.

Also consider that the WL may not want to see an amp brand name on the platform..just a thought , although a GDEC 30 is pretty small and conservative.

There is more politics on a PW team than there is in DC.

Also consider that some sound folks, especially in Church,feel they are the cream of the crop and perhaps told the WL that you don't need an amp. Once a sound guy gets full control of the platform it's very difficult to take any back.

This is going to sound really really awful, some, not all, some folks involved in Church have zero experience outside Church so when they are on the platform it's almost like filling a long life dream...they are finally in a band, or finally running a board..etc...they are on stage performing...couple that with being in charge ..well....

good luck....I didn't survive the politics....it just took years for me to come to my senses...but I did learn a ton of music and had a great time with a few of the other team members.

If his church is anything like mine, I'm sure the guitar isn't the source of the problem. Most places don't even turn the guitar up enough to be heard let alone be louder than anyone else.

:rolleyes:

I would point the suspicious finger at the keyboard or whatever instrument his church considers an actual "Instrument"....because 90% of the time, it's not the guitar that is considered the main instrument at ANY given church.

You guys can come play in my band any time :)

I would point the suspicious finger at the keyboard or whatever instrument his church considers an actual "Instrument"....because 90% of the time, it's not the guitar that is considered the main instrument at ANY given church.

This ^^^

At the church I attend and play at, we have the amps in a room right behind the stage mic'd. So we have em'' cranked and on stage you can't hear em'! We run avion's it whatever those are called. I use shure 425s. A lot of the others have Westone's.

The bass runs direct through any given sound programs for the tone. The bassist does have a choice - not solely up to the sound guy. The bass also has a Butt Kicker attached to his chair so he can feel without the half stack.

I had a problem with true tone until I went to the shures. What I heard wasn't what was actually going into the house. That changed once I got the duals.

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This can be extremely frustrating. I have a hunch we are headed for this unfortunate area as well.

I would give the WL what he asked for, take my amp off the stage, put it in my car, and not come back. The entire idea of "no sound" being generated on stage is stupid from the get-go. Music IS sound. You can't make music if you don't make sound. "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord".

If all you want is digital algorithms and electrons moving through wires, right up until the point it hits the mains speakers, just play recordings.

Perfect.

Another perspective:

If you are a hired gun, you do what the people signing the checks say until you can get a better gig. If you are doing this because of your love for the Lord, then you do have the option to offer praise in a manner more suited to your (anyone's) personal choices. If there are unacceptable conditions to the manner of your employment/volunteer status, then simply don't do it.

Life is too short for hard feelings while in the midst of leading worship (which anyone on the stage is doing, whether you think you are or not!) Without a clear head and a clear heart, you just can't do that with the focus required of the position. When it becomes a burden... people in the congregation can see it, or worse - feel it.

Go where you are needed, go where you are wanted, serve how you best can fill a need. If that means adjusting, then so be it. I've yet to encounter any religion that teaches the messengers are more important than the message.

I like the idea of pointing the amp up at you, like a monitor. I also think amps on the platform look cool and the people in the congregation like seeing the equipment...or maybe it's just me! In Ear Monitors are a hassle, especially if you don't have a full time and dedicated sound man, and you have to setup earlier to get everything adjusted. We just plug into our amps, have (finally) monitors for the 5 singers, a sound man who just does adjustments on the vocals and lead guitar....and we let it rip. It's a fairly quick setup. Also use electronic drums that sound unbelievably good through the drum amp! It helps that the drummer is excellent.

I feel for people who have these kinds of conflicts. Last practice our lead guitar player told me in a nice way that my guitar (rhythm) was too loud and he couldn't hear his soloing.
So, I turned it way down and then he said he couldn't hear me at all now. I just smiled and said that it was probably better that way. Everyone laughed and I turned my amp back up to a "reasonable' level.

I feel for people who have these kinds of conflicts. Last practice our lead guitar player told me in a nice way that my guitar (rhythm) was too loud and he couldn't hear his soloing.
So, I turned it way down and then he said he couldn't hear me at all now. I just smiled and said that it was probably better that way. Everyone laughed and I turned my amp back up to a "reasonable' level.

Your thing sounds like a frequency issue

I wonder if this is a perception issue?

For years churches had 1 piano, or 1 organ and a congregation full of singers.

Now churches Assume they need a FULL BAND to go with their congregation full of singers - except they assume everything should be the same volume as the last 100 years.

They should have adds that say:
"Come see our BIG AWESOME rockbands of God - that don't rock." :roll:

I did 7 years in a full pentecostal PW group, 4 services/week, countless outreach and choir events.. If you are using a small amp, you are not the problem,unless you are not telling the truth and are playing real loud. If the singers can't hear because of you then the platform is not set up correctly for the large group and/or the sound guy is not doing his job. PERIOD.

You may want to consider placing your amp on the floor facing you, like a monitor, tilted back, if you are not already doing this. It will be no louder than a monitor...

Worship platforms with multiple singers is very difficult and if the monitors/monitor mix is not correct it will fail.

I actually suspect something else is going on...if you can barely hear your guitar then I doubt anyone else can either...what do your PW band mates say, you are too loud or no big deal because that's the pudding right there...If they say you are too loud then you are, if they say you are not..then you are not.

Also consider that the WL may not want to see an amp brand name on the platform..just a thought , although a GDEC 30 is pretty small and conservative.

There is more politics on a PW team than there is in DC.

Also consider that some sound folks, especially in Church,feel they are the cream of the crop and perhaps told the WL that you don't need an amp. Once a sound guy gets full control of the platform it's very difficult to take any back.

This is going to sound really really awful, some, not all, some folks involved in Church have zero experience outside Church so when they are on the platform it's almost like filling a long life dream...they are finally in a band, or finally running a board..etc...they are on stage performing...couple that with being in charge ..well....

good luck....I didn't survive the politics....it just took years for me to come to my senses...but I did learn a ton of music and had a great time with a few of the other team members.

This is a very accurate analysis, having seen and experienced it myself at other churches, especially where a lot of the worship team members are younger. There's so much limited experience with genuine live venue Sound Reinforcement with the majority being with digital sound on computers in bedrooms or small studios. I use little Peavey transtube Rage or Blazer 158 amps cranked halfway at my church, but we have experienced live sound people on our team. Maybe a Roland Micro Cube or something comparable to serve almost like a hotspot? Highly unlikely it would bother any singers, especially if it's aimed right at you only.

Not worth risking your hearing just because WL wants a certain "look" without providing proper monitoring. Had my own share of those kinds of foolish decisions and the Lord guided me to my current church, which is wonnderful.

I wonder how LOUD the music is going to be in Heaven?

"I think i'm gonna need a bigger AMP!" :grin:

I wonder if this is a perception issue?

For years churches had 1 piano, or 1 organ and a congregation full of singers.

Now churches Assume they need a FULL BAND to go with their congregation full of singers - except they assume everything should be the same volume as the last 100 years.

They should have adds that say:
"Come see our BIG AWESOME rockbands of God - that don't rock." :roll:

Perception is defiantly part of it. I lead with an electric instead of an acoustic last week and that was hard for some people who have an idea of "church music"

Thirty people on the platform, all trying to hear themselves amplified and each other . . no wonder no one is having any fun. Just put everyone behind a big plexi and play acoustically - think of it as a modern take on an orchestra pit:grin: Seriously, if it gets this hard I have to wonder where the joy in worship could be.

Why do worship pastors say "no amps on stage" when the real goal is stage volume? Shouldn't they say something like "nothing more than 80db hitting the front row"?

Why do worship pastors say "no amps on stage" when the real goal is stage volume? Shouldn't they say something like "nothing more than 80db hitting the front row"?

In the OP the issue was that they were going to In-Ears but never did. In other situations the issue may be competition. The lead guitar amp is turned up to compete with the keyboard amp who is competing with the rhythm guitar who is competing with the background vocals monitor, etc

You hit a hot button here. I feel for you. We've got IEMs, but the "technicians" running the board get my signal back to the Aviom too hot about 80% of the time, and I'm being charitable, so the sound of my guitar is like a 1960s transistor radio with a broken speaker. Might as well not have a monitor at all.

I've seriously thought about getting a Y-out of the monitor feed, taking that, and the signal from my POD into my own 2-channel mixer, and using that simply to give me a monitor mix that I can control. That's my next step, though I've started doing Sunday breakfast crew once every other month to get a break - I too am tempted sometimes to just do only that.

I really believe that IEMs can solve 99% of problems, but they come with their own set of technical learnings and challenges. Some people just will never figure it out, it seems.
Late to the party, but do you happen to know how they are feeding the Aviom system from the console? It shouldn't do that.

We just went silent stage at my home congregation. The problem for years was that the grand piano we had in the church just overwhelmed evereything, and we didn't really have a setup for silent stage. Our praise services outgrew the main sanctuary, and we had to move to our multipurpose gym.

I have to say that after a really steep learning curve, we seem to be doing OK with individual mixers (in our case, Hearback), and silent stage. PODs for the electrics, DI for the acoustic, Sansamp rack unit for the bass, and a keyboard in lieu of the grand. We've had electronic drums for a while. Singers still have a couple of floor wedges, but otherwise, it is a pretty silent stage.

Have to say we have killer speakers, with a huge subwoofer, that allows great lower bass and drum frequencies through, so the congregation seems to like the setup. I'm getting custom molded IEM, with quad drivers, and that should make my job on bass or guitar easier.

It doesn't have to be all bad, but the transition is indeed painful.

Scooteraz,

Can I ask why? I get the piano over powering but in going silent you went digital drums and POD which both limit you and sound less than great. I just dont get it

:sad: I have read several of your humble opinions. Now it seems that bug is starting to hit our stage. I join to help out a couple of years ago with a POD and head phones. I told the sound guy I needed a monitor wedge to hear my processed guitar tone. He told me to turn up my head phones he did not want more noise on the stage. I proceeded to get rid of my POD for a Mesa Boogie MARK V Combo. Slapped on some side fins like you see on Fenders to tilt back(Like monitor wedge). Needless to say he was not amused. I tucked my self deep in the corner right side of the drums. Tilted back facing me and the the back curtain. Worked like a charm.. I had the volume & FEEL of an amp. Everyone seem to forget amps have feeling too.. I came from a 4x12 1/2 stack. You feel the air move. WIRELINE you are 100% correct. Problem is I'm not being paid to play. If I was I would play my acoustic on a stool...:smile: Anyway now they want me out front with the singers:shock: Problem now.. They don't like my amp:sad: So WL said we need to get all the noise off the stage at some point. I told him I tried that I was not allow ed a monitor wedge so I spent $2,300. on a monitor for myself. There is also a 2nd guitar & bass player with amps. I don't think they are going to budge either. Sound s like if give up our amps we will never get them back. Wish us well!

A scissor stand you can set your amp on right at ear level beside you can work. Mic it or run direct from it(or a from a processor) to the board if the tone is acceptable that way. It isn't the best for you since it is so close, but will do in a pinch. It doesn't disturb the other members other than maybe the ones right beside you hearing out the back or front of the amp.

ATR1, sounds like a nice setup. They can adjust to you!

I built a room off stage for my amp. It works great with an Aviom. Can't believe I just said that.....

We have little to no stage volume, and I think our FOH mix is as good as its ever been.


149191

I built a room off stage for my amp. It works great with an Aviom. Can't believe I just said that.....

We have little to no stage volume, and I think our FOH mix is as good as its ever been.


149191

The Worship Pastor just built one for us also. I love it. I crank it up, and no one complains - on stage or off. And yes, it does sound awesome in the Avioms.

Last week I finally tried an experiment. I put my speaker back stage (we have doors to close off the back stage area from the main sanctuary) and mic'd it. This left the stage volume completely manageable, I still get my amp sound cranked (but thru the monitors now) and the house sound is much better because the sound actually gets mixed for quality sound rather than mixing around the stage volume. It worked well, much better than I had expected. I do bring my own mic though, an E906.

The biggest advantage is I can use my "real" amp (the Mesa Mini Rec) instead of the power soaked Vox practice amp. So my tone is waaaayyyy better and gets cranked up a bit more than I could if the speaker were on stage! I modded the Vox (AD30VT-XL) by adding a Blue Dog speaker and a switching jack. If nothing is plugged in then the Vox amp uses the speaker. great grab-n-go for Tuesday rehearsal. If I plug in the Mesa then the Mesa uses the speaker and the Vox becomes just anouther extension speaker cab. But it also means I automatically have a backup amp in an emergency.

I place my cranked amp (Blues Jr) off stage behind closed doors and mic it with an sm57. We have no budget for Avioms so we use Rolls boxes. I get one monitor feed to hear everything else and use a Y adapter to feed the mic signal to the board and another feed to the Rolls. Then I mix them in the box. It works really well.

I'm going to start using my Orange MT in services. Headphone jack to a Di box to a splitter with a headphone out for me.

Brother you can try this,,I run our mix board ,and its very hard to please all,run your guitar through the mixer,and you may have to change you position on stage,but you can headphone off the mixer and hear everything,band,vocals chior,I hope this will help or at least give you some incentive to stay I know it is hard on you,but a bad day playing guitar beats a good day cuttn grass,ps you can in line any pedal here,and tweek the effects through the mix,give it a try,God Bless

My playing wouldn't be as good without an amp. Gotta have that tone that only and amp can give you.

Scooteraz,

Can I ask why? I get the piano over powering but in going silent you went digital drums and POD which both limit you and sound less than great. I just dont get it

Well, if it is not too late a response...

We outgrew our sanctuary, and had to move to the .... You guessed it....gym. No longer is there a grand piano, and the out was we could better control the parishioner experience via the soundboard. And it works.

To be honest, I prefer playing through an amp. But I have to admit that the experience of having really good IEMs (I bought 1964 Ears), isn't so bad. Yeah, I still think a real amp sounds better to me, but it is about the congregation's experience, and they really can't tell. And a big part of me says that if I were as talented as says, Lincoln Brewster, I could make a POD sound really good. That is, the limit on my sound is not the POD, it is me.

Lincoln Brewster plays a very limited style of music.:)

What next: are they going to start telling singers to sing quieter? Put plexi-glass infront of them?

Eventually they'll be telling the congregation to SHUT UP so that the P.A. system can mix the room properly and blend it all in to one glorious over processed mess.

Just get your heart right and make a FREAKIN' noise for God. Churches are getting pathetic. Some churches would be happy to just have a good musician or two. :shock:

I seriously want to start a punk rock church where people can be as loud and excited about Worshiping and preaching God as possible. Who's with me?

Ok, this thread started in MAY, maybe time to give it a rest.

But before I leave, I'm going to get something off my chest. I don't think the people who make these decisions (e.g., no amps on stage) do so because they are evil, or hate guitarists, or even misguided/stupid. I believe they do it because they feel the sound will be "better" as measured by whatever criteria they are working with. It could be congregational feedback, input from the pastor, or others who may have more control over their position (and paycheck) than the volunteer electric guitarist; or they could have some assumptions about sound quality based on what they saw at another church, a seminar, read online, who knows. Not saying they are right, but taking it as some kind of affront suggests you may be coming from the wrong place.

My point is, deal with it, and learn from it, or move on quietly if you can't. Don't disparage others who seem to make it work, and possibly make it work well. (I don't hear Lincoln Brewster making comments about people that use amps, for Pete's sake!)

I'll admit that for myself it's a continuing struggle, but the fact is I can now make it work, problems and all. Consequently, I'm a better guitarist, more versatile, and more able to contribute than if I packed up in a huff. I suspect that's been the plan all along, and not some scheme to keep me from soloing over the rest of the team.

I believe I'm done here.

Lincoln Brewster may play through a POD or similar, but he's got it plugged into his amps. At least at the live shows I've seen him. That may be different than what he does as a WL in a church service setting. Either way, doesn't matter, he makes it work.

Lincoln Brewster may play through a POD or similar, but he's got it plugged into his amps. At least at the live shows I've seen him. That may be different than what he does as a WL in a church service setting. Either way, doesn't matter, he makes it work.

At least a few years ago when he was using The POD XT Live, he said that the amp was for stage only, none of the amp sound was in the FOH signal.

I saw Lincoln a year ago and it was one of the worst sounding shows and guitar tones i've heard in years. That is quite an achievement. :shock:

But as long as he is happy. That is what counts.

I think churches that want quieter bands: should just get quieter bands. Ditch the 20 piece drum kit and the 10 other musicians onstage and just go Casio keyboard and maracas. Why are so many churches just frustrating themselves?

I know this sounds really negative, but I just enjoy the philosophy of church music. I'm just thinking out loud. I wonder if God left this information out of the Bible because he enjoys watching us flounder for perfection? I agree with him.:wink:

What LB does or doesn't do is besides the point.

Goldie is right that churches who want quieter bands often don't take the right steps to get there.

There are two big issues.

1. Are we mixing a live venue or a studio?

2. Is our band set up for the music church wants?

But we get side tracked with things like amps on stage and think that's the real issue

jb12string - I have this same problem at times that still_fiddlin commented on. My signal in the IEM's is so hot at times that it's distorting. It looked like you possibly had some suggestions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by still_fiddlin View Post
You hit a hot button here. I feel for you. We've got IEMs, but the "technicians" running the board get my signal back to the Aviom too hot about 80% of the time, and I'm being charitable, so the sound of my guitar is like a 1960s transistor radio with a broken speaker. Might as well not have a monitor at all.

I've seriously thought about getting a Y-out of the monitor feed, taking that, and the signal from my POD into my own 2-channel mixer, and using that simply to give me a monitor mix that I can control. That's my next step, though I've started doing Sunday breakfast crew once every other month to get a break - I too am tempted sometimes to just do only that.

I really believe that IEMs can solve 99% of problems, but they come with their own set of technical learnings and challenges. Some people just will never figure it out, it seems.
Late to the party, but do you happen to know how they are feeding the Aviom system from the console? It shouldn't do that.

We don't run live amps or drums on the platform. We have modelers for the guitars and bass and a set of roland V-drums for the drummer. A lot of making it work is in the set up. First, we ran everything into the sound board and got our sound set out of the mains (what the congregation will hear). Then we dialed in monitor mixes for everyone. Being a relatively small platform, most people just get themselves and maybe some vocals through their monitor. The key concept in keeping the volume down on the platform was that in having the mains done first, we were able to hear everything through them. Then the monitors were just a matter of bringing in a little bit of your instrument to be able to better identify yourself in the mix... and it doesn't take as much as you might think. We tested the levels on the platform by playing a song and then pulling the monitors completely down to see how it affected the FOH levels. The difference was basically unperceivable, maybe a very slight drop in mids, but no change to the overall volume.

Before going this route, there was a time when the stage volume was so hot that the monitors were basically carrying the house and the mains were just about off! This has been a huge improvement. :cool: Like anything else, if it's set up and done wrong, nobody will like it. But if it's done correctly, it really works well and is very satisfying. All IMHO, YMMV. :)

jb12string - I have this same problem at times that still_fiddlin commented on. My signal in the IEM's is so hot at times that it's distorting. It looked like you possibly had some suggestions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by still_fiddlin View Post
You hit a hot button here. I feel for you. We've got IEMs, but the "technicians" running the board get my signal back to the Aviom too hot about 80% of the time, and I'm being charitable, so the sound of my guitar is like a 1960s transistor radio with a broken speaker. Might as well not have a monitor at all.

I've seriously thought about getting a Y-out of the monitor feed, taking that, and the signal from my POD into my own 2-channel mixer, and using that simply to give me a monitor mix that I can control. That's my next step, though I've started doing Sunday breakfast crew once every other month to get a break - I too am tempted sometimes to just do only that.

I really believe that IEMs can solve 99% of problems, but they come with their own set of technical learnings and challenges. Some people just will never figure it out, it seems.
Late to the party, but do you happen to know how they are feeding the Aviom system from the console? It shouldn't do that.

I've had to use IEM on a few occassions and it's been a real bummer every time. My biggest complaint with them is that you absolutely need to have a really good sound person at the board who knows what they are doing or else you end up with a hot mess every time. Unfortunatley, a lot of sound people at churches are volunteers who simply know how to push buttons and twist knobs with little consideration for those playing. Nothing like having a sound tech who likes to boost people up by using the trim dial, thus blowing up the monitor mix in the process, as opposed to just bumping up the channel fader that runs to the mains a bit. There's a lot that can be done with technology, but if it's not in the grasp of the people that are there to run it, my opinion is that it's best to leave it alone then.

I seriously want to start a punk rock church where people can be as loud and excited about Worshiping and preaching God as possible. Who's with me?I may not know much about punk rock, but I can rock for God as loud and as enthusiastically as the next guy! I'm in! :cool:

I seriously want to start a punk rock church where people can be as loud and excited about Worshiping and preaching God as possible. Who's with me?

We actually have a punk rock church here in Dallas :mrgreen:

At my WL's request, I am tethered to my amp by a pair of headphones(inserting the headphones kills the speaker). I put one over my left ear to hear my guitar and leave the right one off so I can hear everything else. This is not good.
I love the Lord. I feel I am called to play in church. I know it's not about me. Having said all that, I am so frustrated by this setup I am thinking of quitting the praise band and serving on the grass cutting crew.
I have spoken at length with my WL numerous times about this. He doesn't want amps on stage because they drown out the monitor mix and the singers can't hear. Period
Maybe I just needed to vent, but still, I would appreciate any advice.

First off you need to talk to that Worship leader as he is putting your hearing at serious risk!!! The absolute most dangerious way to try and play for your hearing is doing what he is asking you to do. No matter what you have to do including taking the step to walk away from the band STOP the practice of running one ear piece! There are many musicians today who can not hear it thunder due to doing this in the studio simply DO NOT DO THIS!!
You might want to have your Worship leader take a look at this site. http://www.hearnet.com/index.shtml
I can't stress how incredibly dangerous to your hearing the practice to have one ear open and the other running a monitor is!!

There are ways to make a REAL amp work on stage in any setting. if the Church is not willing to work with me in this I don't need to be playing in that band and there is no room for negotiation in this. I simply will NOT use a modeler on stage ever period. I spent many many hours programming and thousands of $$ on modelers and was miserable as a player.
I now can play most any worship gig with nothing but a guitar and amp ( although I do normally run a minimal board with delay Chorus Reverb a compressor and a wah) but will not play without using a real amp.
This is from a setting last week where the volume levels were so low in the room that you could easily speak normally and be heard during the service.
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On the other hand I also regularly play Black Pentecostal meetings where the levels are up around 120 db or better using the exact same amp ( 25 watt Zinky Blue velvet).
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I am able to easily get great tones in both settings and work with the leadership.
This whole argument is silly and any worship leader that is so anal to not allow me to run a rig I am comfortable on stage is NOT someone that I am willing to work with and for!! If they want it that quiet on stage get a CD player and run canned stuff!
FYI I work with quite a number of different teams gig in Worship settings 3 to 5 nights a week and have to regularly turn down gigs just because I can't fit um in. Been doing the Worship thing for 17 years now pretty exclusively.

Having said everything we've discussed: some rooms are so small that the best thing is just to use a keyboard and acoustic guitar. I don't think God will mind.:cool:

Wow.. I'm really late to the party but I really wanted to have my two cents on this one too! :)

I am a guitarist / MD / worship leader / monitors guy in one of our teams at my church, so I see things from a few different angles.

First and foremost, its our responsibility to honour our leaders. If my leaders say "no electric guitars this month"...well, I go learn how to mix monitors. If the pastor says its too loud, its actually kinda irrelevant if I think it is loud or not. The best thing I can do for the service and congregation is not bark my opinion at someone else, but honour and support the direction my leaders are going.

Secondly, its a team effort. If the guy behind the desk mixing the band comes and tells me to turn down, he isn't doing so cause he thinks i'm a jerk, he is doing so cause what he is hearing is inappropriate for him to be able to get a good mix. I need to trust him and that he is going to have the best interest of the congregation at heart. If I feel that he's being a grinch and just hates electric guitars, well then perhaps its a good opportunity for me to come alongside him, build relationship, go out for a coffee some time, and start digging into what makes him tick when it comes to his mixing etc. Ask him why he doesn't have any guitars in the mix. It might just turn out to be the fact that all the electric players have woeful guitar tone that translate to mud in the PA system.

Thirdly, in ears are a good thing if done properly. But if you are going to do it, it needs to be taken seriously by all involved, even if that means investing in good quality drivers out of our own pockets. At my church, many of the team member invest in UE4 or UE7 ears. DO they have to, no. But they take their position on the team seriously enough to see the value in it. If your operators are doing something wrong that is causing your mix to distort, perhaps make some time to come in and spend some time with them and take a look some time. You may find there may be something in the system setup wrong that they aren't aware of. If you feel that their skill is lacking to give you the mix you want, go and learn how to mix in ears / monitors so that way you can be in a position where you can train other volunteers on how you like them to be mixed! Everyone is a winner that way. Also, the notion that amps "HAVE" to be on stage is kinda limited. I have been using Radial SGI's to run amps quite a distance away from stage and the only monitoring I have is in my ears. I love the fact I can dime my amp to its sweet spot and it sings. I also love the fact that someone in the front row gets to hear a mix of what is happening on stage, and not a guitarist competing with a drummer who is competing with a vocalist. Don't get me wrong, I like being next to my amp, but to have the idea that its a "pre-requisite" for us to be able to lead worship effectively......

Anyway, I could go on but I think I'll leave it there. Don't want to flog a dead horse any more than it has been.

-Bless you guys! Please be encouraged to remember that first and foremost our worship isn't about our guitars or our volume. In fact, a congregation doesn't need us muso's to be able to worship at all. But its pretty special that we get to be a part of leading the church in that way.

-Rob

Ok. We have an electric guitar, an acoustic, keyboards, flute, drums and everyone plays through the board except me (electric). We listen on the stage through five monitors. Two on stands, two on the floor and one behind us on the wall. No one has ever complained about my amp being too loud. It's a DRRI and it's microphoned to the P.A. Our Pastor could care less what we have on stage (the sanctuary) as long as we lead the congregation in Worship and play reasonably well. I guess we're lucky. I want to hear my amp and it's my "monitor"
Incidentally, we only play one, maybe two "performance" songs and trust me it ain't Lincoln Brewster-type stuff.

[QUOTE=Ascension;4628099]There are ways to make a REAL amp work on stage in any setting. if the Church is not willing to work with me in this I don't need to be playing in that band and there is no room for negotiation in this. I simply will NOT use a modeler on stage ever period. I spent many many hours programming and thousands of $$ on modelers and was miserable as a player.
I now can play most any worship gig with nothing but a guitar and amp ( although I do normally run a minimal board with delay Chorus Reverb a compressor and a wah) but will not play without using a real amp.

........

Agreed. Learning how to play with an amp at all volume levels is a basic skill for those of us who learned to play in the "pre-Edge" era of worship music. If having an amp on stage is just a matter of "how it looks" then there are probably other issues in the church.

wow. Kind of makes me glad to play at my church. I used to play with an amp. The leader understood that part of getting a good guitar tone is the amp. He just asked that we deferred to the sound guy if the amp got too loud.

I eventually switched to a tech 21 california. It's not perfect, but it's really good. Get's the sounds I need without lugging an amp around and makes everyone on stage super happy.

Some of the guys in our band still use amps. Totally cool. It's the lesson that we all learn as kids: you gotta learn to play nicely in the sandbox. Everyone looks after everyone else. No one is less important.

Hi guys

Interesting hearing all your stories.

In the ten years I've been with my church, we have moved from playing thru an amp onstage with line out to mixer, to modeler+DI boxes, to now an amp backstage that's mic-ed up and fed back to the musician through Aviom IEM system. The Aviom works well cos it gives each musician n singer the ability to mix his/her own blend of sound (in stereo no less), with a common understanding with the audio crew to leave unchanged our gain/trim levels throughout the set.

And yes, there has been some episodes of audio crew vs musician vs singers over the years. Some have left cos of these, unable to reconcile n work together. Sigh.

Granted, there are probably some leaders who have frustrated a musician or two with their over simplistic or rigid approach to problem solving. My suggestion: give feedback, help them understand what a good amp means to us. Negotiate.

Sound issues aside.

IMHO, I think God is seeking worshippers (and not just worship ie. music/song/dance/etc), John 4:23.

Perhaps it's the unity of heart that's described in passages like Ps 133 and 1 Cor 13 that should undergird, no, lend meaning to all we sing n play.

If the band is using avioms, then the amp offstage is a compelling solution. More and more churches doing this. Just gotta make sure you have a strong signal back to the amp. Need to have a good buffer.

I've been quite happy with the switch to a POD HD500. Given all the sounds I try to cover there's no way I could do all that with just an amp and a couple of pedals. You're basically a cover band and you have to include a lot of styles. I'll usually craft a patch for each song and save it, then I have it ready for the next time we do that song. Yes, I'd prefer an amp, a cord, a guitar, 2 fingers and.....well, you know. But that's not our reality. The curious thing to me is after all this "clean stage look" and "low volume onstage" and "camera angle this and that" and moving the orchestra from the blended services to the floor, we have decided to put a wide-screen TV smack in the middle of the stage for the contemporary service. This is for the pastor to use as a prop for his "points." Previously that was all on the 2 screens to either side of the platform, hung high on the walls where all can see. (The sanctuary was once a basketball court for the church school which no longer exists so you can imagine how wide the front of the church is, stage on one side rather than at the "endcourt" and not nearly as deep.)

So now I stand there, dwarfed by this gi-normous TV and it blocks my line of sight to the other side of the stage. Drums are in a booth all the way to one side and it's hard enough to make eye contact as it is, piano is all the way to the other side and in some video shots we appear to be one man and a guitar singing alone in the middle. And this monstrosity is on wheels. It ROLLS! But we can't have it to one side and roll it out during the "meet and greet." Plenty of room and time to do that. No, it has to sit there the whole time like a drive-in movie screen. I'm just smacking my head over this one.:confused:

I'm taking a break right now because of similar frustrations. This zero stage volume business is a bunch of nonsense for a live band. If volume us that much of an issue, perhaps backing tracks should be considered instead of a band.

Yep and if a worship leader is that anal on the no amp on stage issue I'm off the team no negotiation no discussion.
I can see issues where the team is playing SO LOUD it's killing the main mix or even killing the congregation. That also is amateurish and if it's the case most of the time you have ego issues in a team.
I can also see running a iso booth or running your cab off stage and miced but forcing a guitar player to play with a modeler is like forcing the pastor to preach with a bottom level radio shack mic!
A solid team can run REAL gear at sane levels anywhere you set them up and sound good without killing a crowd.

This is how I feel...

Ascension comment: "A solid team can run REAL gear at sane levels anywhere you set them up and sound good without killing a crowd."

Still waiting for a church that doesn't need a special volume of music to be happy- just to worship and make a joyful noise...