Guitarist guitar problem, what to do??

So I live in Nashville, and I'm in a hard rock/psychedelic rock/surf/twang/whatever band, and everything is going great!! We just submitted our new album to iTunes, we've been playing some gigs, and most of all, we're having fun! One problem.....

My co-guitarist in the band has a beautiful epiphone sheriton, sunburst, awesome sound...but the damn thing never stays in tune!!! Now granted, he has a fairly aggressive style, and uses 11's or 12's, and he's had it to the shop soooo many times and no matter what, the intonation is always out....I don't know if it's him, or the guitar, but recently I finished a 70's mustang rebuild, and he's taken a liking to the guitar, and it seems to hold MUCH better tune in his hands. Crappy thing is, I'd love to have this guitar as a solid backup to my #1, but at this point I'd almost rather let him use my mustang all the time if it means less time with my thumb up my ass waiting for him to tune....is there an appropriate way to approach him and tell him that he has a bum-ass guitar (or PROBLEMATIC if you will, and a problem that has been getting worse for a long while), and he should start looking for something more reliable? He's a touchy guy sometimes, and this is his #1, so I don't want to start some dumb drama over it if it happens to be his hot button or something....or should I just suck it up, let him use the mustang and go build something new? Haha. Any and all input appreciated!

Edit: he also has an ibanez something he uses as a backup but the tone is horrible and his tuners are crap...I'd prefer he used the tune-crap epi over the ibanez any day...

Let him play your guitar for a while.
Let him get used to BEING IN TUNE.

After a while, if your lucky, he will seek other instruments that also stay in tune.

It will bring your stage show up a notch as well. More time playing the show with fewer momentum breaks.

~ ST

Let him play your guitar for a while.
Let him get used to BEING IN TUNE.

After a while, if your lucky, he will seek other instruments that also stay in tune.

It will bring your stage show up a notch as well. More time playing the show with fewer momentum breaks.

~ ST

That's kinda what Im hoping will happen, hopefully he takes the bait!! He's pretty thick headed though so who the hell knows...haha.

Rule # 1 ... a guitarist needs to have decent gear (minimum is an in-tune guitar of any type) if planning to play for others ...

Don't pu$$y-foot around the subject for too long. Don't wait for him to "take the hint". Come right out and say it, in the the most polite and tactful way possible: Dude, you need a guitar that stays in tune. And no, you can't use mine indefinitely. If you're getting bored waiting for him to tune up all the time, just try to imagine how bored your audience will be.

I'm in a cover band that can't seem to get out of the basement, so for now, I just put up with the other guitarist's crappy gear.. but you guys have recorded and are doing some gigging - it's time for him to step up to a big boy guitar.

Man, if a guitar with 11's and 12's on it can't stay in tune, there is something wrong. It's always touchy offering constructive criticism. I'd wait until he's playing your guitar and has a good night, and then compliment the heck out of his sound. Then, mention, "you know, I think part of how great you're sounding is that you're playing more in tune with that guitar." Get the gears turning in his head with compliments....

If the two of you are good friends I could understand the attraction to playing in a band with him. But if he's not a good friend, and as you have said he's "thick headed" and a "touchy guy" and he's not noticing his intonation problems, I wouldn't be happy with him as a co-guitarist. There are lots of great players in your area, I'm sure you could hook a nice guitar player that enjoys playing in tune (especially if you are playing out regularly). Good luck!

Those Sheraton IIs often have these kinds of tuning problems - I wonder if changing out the tuners would do the trick.

Let him play your guitar for a while.
Let him get used to BEING IN TUNE.

After a while, if your lucky, he will seek other instruments that also stay in tune.

It will bring your stage show up a notch as well. More time playing the show with fewer momentum breaks.

~ ST

Given your description of your bandmate, I'd be surprised if it played out this way. I could see your clear ownership of your project axe becoming a little blurry, shall we say...

Are you the only one in the band who views his tuning issue as a problem? Don't get me wrong, I'm with those, like you, who feel it's his responsibility to have a pro quality, dependable axe if he's in a serious, working band. And not yours to provide it.

If others in the band feel the same as you, no problem, time for a band pow-wow. However, if no one else shares your view and you think the guy can't handle a frank discussion about it, then....?? I guess you could offer to sell him your project for cost + PIA factor. Best of luck.

Try some locking tuners and a little graphite nut lubricant, a pretty inexpensive fix.

I'm with Dave. The nut could very well be the problem. The tuners, the bridge. What part of town are you in? We'll just take a look at it.

I'm with the rest. Look at the nut,the relief. On that note (no pun) is the guitar set up for 11's or 12's? Or was it set up for 9s and he put 11 or 12 on it. Or if he is that aggressive he needs something more stout to bang on.

Try some locking tuners and a little graphite nut lubricant, a pretty inexpensive fix.

You know, on further thought, I'm going to look into this a bit more....the nut in general might be the problem, it's stock and I'm sure was never meant to handle the beefy 12s he puts on...its been set up for 12's as well, but I don't know if anyone has ever touched his nut (pun definitely intended) and tuners are also original, so there's a great chance those could be slipping too....I'm going to take his guitar home after next practice and look into some of these issues...if not, I'm really looking to build a new tele, so selling to him may be an option, I'm not totally opposed to it, at least I know where it's going to, right??

I'm with Dave. The nut could very well be the problem. The tuners, the bridge. What part of town are you in? We'll just take a look at it.

Hey man, I just saw this post, I live out off Stewart's ferry, I-40 area towards hermitage/donelson. That would be amazing, it's been to a few shops around here, including the one that does great work for me, but it continues to be a problem...anything anyone could do to save it would be great!

The bigger and more ominous question is: why isn't this bugging the crap out of him?

The bigger and more ominous question is: why isn't this bugging the crap out of him?

I think he's trying as hard as he can not to let it bother him, but I know it does....I just think he likes this guitar THAT much....

In Nashville, you have some of the best luthiers around, get with your bandmate, and together take it to one of those respected guys and have them take a look at it. Yes, it might cost a couple bucks, but could be well worth it.

I've never heard too many problems with those Epi Sheraton's before, it can only be about two things...the nut or the tuners. A good luthier can spot it and have a fix in no time.

I think he's trying as hard as he can not to let it bother him, but I know it does....I just think he likes this guitar THAT much....

In that case you may just need to go with him and help him do what he already knows he needs to do. I like JV Granger's place in Sparta. It is a great shop and a fun field trip. You could take him there and drop of the EPI. They will do a great job, but it will take about a month for them to get to it. In the meantime let him borrow your guitar.

Tuning keys are hardly ever the problem. Nuts frequently are.

Tuning keys are hardly ever the problem. Nuts frequently are.

Agreed.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the nut is in the wrong place and needs to be compensated. Not many luthiers recognize, or do that kind of work.

Agreed.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the nut is in the wrong place and needs to be compensated. Not many luthiers recognize, or do that kind of work.

So it's starting to sound already like the nut is the culprit.....I'm going to go with him to the shop, and hopefully we can get this ironed out, I'd love for him to keep using it, but not if it means sacrificing the sound of the band and our professionalism for it....

as an aside, every gigging guitarist needs to carry two guitars with him to gigs...the #1 and a backup. I've never gone to a gig with just one guitar. You just never know what can happen.

Good luck in your future, sounds like you're on the right path.

I did 20+ years on the road with one guitar so not sure why it's needed. If you want to go for it. I'd be more likely to carry a spare amp.

Marc, if George is still over at Shiloh he would probably be the closest. I sent my number so let me know if I can help.

marc13, before you go see a luthier, check to see if the nuts on the tuners are tight. I received a brand new Gretsch guitar a few years ago that had loose tuner nuts and, well... you can guess that it wouldn't stay in tune for more than 30 seconds until I located the problem.

There is no tuning fix for the Epi more than likely. My guess- It's not the nut, or the hardware. It's a combination of a cheap guitar and an agressive player.

Epi necks are not the most stable. Especially the semi hollows. My experience, if you hit a chord, and really manhandle the neck agressively you'll get almost a whammy bar effect, and it will wreck the tuning frequently and easily.

My biggest beef with every offshore semi hollow I have ever played is the "rubber neck" factor. I'm dealing with it right now with the other guitarist in my original project. He has a dot, and an Ibanez Artcore. He has this exact same problem with both of them. I got him to switch them out. he is now using his wife's Am. Std. tele and things are much more solid. Not perfect, but much more solid. He has a tendency to lean down on the neck hard, or pull it hard backward while he's singing. He also has a very agressive left hand "vibrato".

My guitars are set up beyond perfectly. The nut are perfect, the hardware is quality, and I can play a full night with any of them, including HUGE bends, with very few if any tuning issues. He can knock one of my guitars out of tune in one song. And he only plays rhythm. I can play his tele for a song with no issues. I can play one of his chinese semis for one song, and if I'm careful and watch what I'm doing, have almost no issue.

You put an Epi semi hollow in the hands of a really agressive neck handler, and you will always have tuning issues. No matter what you do to the guitar.

You know, Jake brings up a duh kind of point. Does he have this problem with every guitar? If someone else plays his guitar is it in tune? I've been out of teaching for so long I tend to forget about guys with gorilla technique. Death-grip players never play in tune.

YMMV but in general I find that FOR ME guitars with bolt on maple necks stay more in tune than those with set mahogany necks. I play with a relatively light touch also. I'll leave it to the builders and experts to speculate or explain why this is.

CL ad. Trade his Sheraton for a Japanese reissue

There is no tuning fix for the Epi more than likely. My guess- It's not the nut, or the hardware. It's a combination of a cheap guitar and an agressive player.

Epi necks are not the most stable. Especially the semi hollows. My experience, if you hit a chord, and really manhandle the neck agressively you'll get almost a whammy bar effect, and it will wreck the tuning frequently and easily.

My biggest beef with every offshore semi hollow I have ever played is the "rubber neck" factor. I'm dealing with it right now with the other guitarist in my original project. He has a dot, and an Ibanez Artcore. He has this exact same problem with both of them.

You put an Epi semi hollow in the hands of a really agressive neck handler, and you will always have tuning issues. No matter what you do to the guitar.

I haven't played enough semi-hollows to say it as definitively, but my experience supports this. I love my Epi Sheraton, but I need to make a conscious effort to play with a lighter touch or else I have intonation problems. It's been set up properly, and sound fantastic as long as I'm not gripping too hard. I usually play Fenders, so I don't know if it's the neck or scale or what, but it's an issue.

Although I have bookoo respect for Jakedog and his extensive guitar knowledge, I must respectfully disagree that a Sherry can't stay in tune. I have a Korean Sheraton, and was having tuning problems with it. I knew the nut had been replaced when I bought it, so I got some Grovers to throw on there. Now it stays in tune nicely. Not as good as my Tele, but definitely manageable. I'm not wrenching the neck all over the place though. The nut may be a cheaper fix depending on where you go, but you should be able to find a decent set of replacement tuners for less than $50 and install them yourself if you have any experience whatsoever with a drill.

You know, Jake brings up a duh kind of point. Does he have this problem with every guitar? If someone else plays his guitar is it in tune? I've been out of teaching for so long I tend to forget about guys with gorilla technique. Death-grip players never play in tune.

Gorilla grip was my first thought. And rubber neck. Probably any guitar he plays will have the same tuning issues.

The nut. Interesting how that's what the majority here says it is but the shop he's sent it to couldn't figure it out.

I had to say it right out to my band's 2nd guitarist. His '68 Tele sucked at staying in tune. He went ahead & replaced the nut (non-orig) & now it's sounding sweeter. Now to work on his dynamics! :lol:

I'm with the rest. Look at the nut,the relief. On that note (no pun) is the guitar set up for 11's or 12's? Or was it set up for 9s and he put 11 or 12 on it. Or if he is that aggressive he needs something more stout to bang on.

Maybe he's a drummer trapped in guitar player's body...? :wink:

-Jagg

Although I have bookoo respect for Jakedog and his extensive guitar knowledge, I must respectfully disagree that a Sherry can't stay in tune. I have a Korean Sheraton, and was having tuning problems with it. I knew the nut had been replaced when I bought it, so I got some Grovers to throw on there. Now it stays in tune nicely. Not as good as my Tele, but definitely manageable. I'm not wrenching the neck all over the place though. The nut may be a cheaper fix depending on where you go, but you should be able to find a decent set of replacement tuners for less than $50 and install them yourself if you have any experience whatsoever with a drill.

I never said a Sheraton can't stay in tune. I said if you manhandle the doo-doo out of that neck it's not gonna stay in tune. No matter what you do with the tuners and nut. I don't know if it's the neck joint on these imported semis, the way the necks are cut, or the wood they are using, but if you play correctly, they can be setup to work passably. If you manhandle 'em, the necks can't handle it. They are like giant wooden whammy bars.

Another possible issue somebody should probably check-

How does he string his guitar? It floors me how many gigging guitarists employ VERY questionable stringing techniques, that can often result in tuning issues.

Sounds like either you need to be in charge of his setups and restringing his guitar, or he needs a guitar made to withstand his gorilla-like nature, or he should take up percussion.

Really it sounds like we just need to take a look at it before everbody does their thousand mile diagnosis. I think we're going to get together early next week.

Really it sounds like we just need to take a look at it before everbody does their thousand mile diagnosis. I think we're going to get together early next week.

Cool. But I think we should have a preliminary meeting before the meeting to get a working headcount. We're gonna need to know how much pizza and beer to round up.

I'm not gonna be in charge of that again.

I was having quite a bit of trouble keeping my MIM telecaster (purchased used off ebay) in tune and recently replaced the nut with a Tusc XL (graphite impregnated + string slots were cut reasonably well for my string guage). This took care of about 90% of my problem. I did it myself and for a few $$ I went from wanting to give away the guitar to now having a good working instrument. I probably will take into a shop for a final setup and tweaking at some time but I'm good for now. I did spend about $5 more to get the vintage white nut (aged look) over the standard "bright" white one.

Widen the nuts slots and grease them up, but don't deepen them without checking clearances first. That is the easiest fix, if either is the problem. I do not have those issues with my SherII, but I am not a good or heavy player. I know in tune, just can't always carry one ;)

So you say you do hard rock? Why not a guitar with a Floyd Rose? I have met many who just love it and won't go back to anything else. You can get spoiled with a Floyd tuning it just once and then focusing on the music. When practicing, you can use anything but when it's live and there's little time to mess around then the double locking thing shows why it's the standard. I like the old school Fender trem like anybody else, but I would never use a floating, non-locking trem live for more than a song.

That being said, there are some who think that using a Floyd means being all Steve Vai on it and abusing it to the point where it doesn't stay in tune all the way and that strings get broken easily. With moderate use, a Floyd or Kahler (Kahler flat mount for those who hate trems) stay in tune far better than a standard guitar. When I was into more extreme music, I had a Kahler flat mount with Floyd nut and the thing was rock solid. I also had a Washburn Wonderbar with Kahler nut and it also stayed in tune really well. The only thing which stayed in tune better was the keyboard I used.


Anyway, here's a similar looking guitar, but this one a Carvin with Kahler double locking trem (Kahlers are better on Gibson type guitars like the Sheraton thus not taking too much wood from already vulnerable nut, and both Kahlers and Floyd Rose trems work well for strat type guitars):

Also, here's a little youtube on the Kahler trem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahgz3ayXj_E