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Appetite for Destruction tone in a box

WCK85
May 21st, 2012, 11:31 PM
I know this is impossible and a Telecaster forum probably isn't the best place to ask this question. But have any of you ever come anywhere close to the modded Marshall tone that Slash had on AFD? The closest I can get with my own gear is my Classic 30 on the dirty channel with a MXR GT-OD boosting it and adding some color.

Stratburst
May 21st, 2012, 11:56 PM
Any Marshall-type pedal - The Guv'nor or Tonebone Hot British - will get you most of the way there. But a Les Paul-type guitar with PAF-style pickups into a Marshall amp is your essential tone recipe.

11 Gauge
May 22nd, 2012, 02:12 AM
I'd actually go for a Marshall V1 Shredmaster to get those Slash tones. With the contour control, you can really hit the midrange sweet spot. And with the same contour control, you can knock the mids down for other types of tones or music (you can even scoop them!).

And despite the name, the SM doesn't excel at "metal tones," IMO. Turn the gain down and you get all that cool classic rock/GNR/STP/etc./etc...

...Okay - maybe some old Maiden/Priest/Scorpions/"old school metal," but that's about as far as it goes IMO. The SM is much better with the gain cranked back for crunchy midrange-laden stuff. And it was made by the same company who makes the amps that folks want the essence of.

Guit-jitsu
May 22nd, 2012, 02:30 AM
Wampler!

1DdruianYYA

bossking7
May 22nd, 2012, 07:19 AM
Lovepedal Superlead

Hulk
May 22nd, 2012, 09:48 PM
I have been using my Wampler Pinnacle for this very purpose. I use my neck pickup (on my LP) with the tone rolled down and have the gain on the pedal set at about 50%. If you are using a Tele, you may have a difficult time getting this tone.

Chrismo
May 22nd, 2012, 09:52 PM
Lovepedal Purple Plexi or MI Audio Crunchbox.

Chrismo
May 22nd, 2012, 09:55 PM
I'd actually go for a Marshall V1 Shredmaster to get those Slash tones. With the contour control, you can really hit the midrange sweet spot. And with the same contour control, you can knock the mids down for other types of tones or music (you can even scoop them!).

And despite the name, the SM doesn't excel at "metal tones," IMO. Turn the gain down and you get all that cool classic rock/GNR/STP/etc./etc...

...Okay - maybe some old Maiden/Priest/Scorpions/"old school metal," but that's about as far as it goes IMO. The SM is much better with the gain cranked back for crunchy midrange-laden stuff. And it was made by the same company who makes the amps that folks want the essence of.

That's a good one too! Not sure what the originals are going for, but Outlaw Supply has this one:

http://www.pureanalogeffects.com/hellrazor.aspx

WCK85
May 22nd, 2012, 11:14 PM
Hey thanks for all the replies. I forgot to mention I use my Gibson "The Paul II" when trying to get that tone. But I like to use my Tele with it too because it still sounds cool. Just not as high gain. I agree a Marshall amp would be a good place to start but I don't want a half stack. I like combo amps.

11 Gauge
May 22nd, 2012, 11:40 PM
Not sure what the originals are going for...

I got a Joyo High Gain Distortion for ~$40. It is a clone of the Hyde side of the Visual Sound Jekyll & Hyde set to "sharp." The Hyde side of the J&H is basically a Shredmaster with the bass control hardwired at a certain point.

But it is the friggin' countour control on that pedal that just lets you jump all over those Slash/classic rock tones, and absolutely pinpoint it, IMO. I'm not usually a big fan of "extra controls," but this is an exception.

I was going to scratchbuild a Shredmaster, but the Joyo was so cheap that it was impossible to not at least try. IDK what kind of longevity it will have (especially the input and output jacks), so that may make the Son of Hyde a better choice. But you could get two of the Joyo HGD's and still have a ten spot left over for some strings or something. Unbelievable...

czech-one-2
May 23rd, 2012, 02:05 AM
I got a Joyo High Gain Distortion for ~$40. It is a clone of the Hyde side of the Visual Sound Jekyll & Hyde set to "sharp." The Hyde side of the J&H is basically a Shredmaster with the bass control hardwired at a certain point.

But it is the friggin' countour control on that pedal that just lets you jump all over those Slash/classic rock tones, and absolutely pinpoint it, IMO. I'm not usually a big fan of "extra controls," but this is an exception.

I was going to scratchbuild a Shredmaster, but the Joyo was so cheap that it was impossible to not at least try. IDK what kind of longevity it will have (especially the input and output jacks), so that may make the Son of Hyde a better choice. But you could get two of the Joyo HGD's and still have a ten spot left over for some strings or something. Unbelievable...

.011 ,How close,from a circuit standpoint is the Joyo to the Shredmaster?Any 'wrong' component values?
I'd like to know cause I'm currently selling this on ebay UK [worldwide shipping :wink:]and I'm pretty certain I'll be missing it!

11 Gauge
May 23rd, 2012, 07:17 AM
.011 ,How close,from a circuit standpoint is the Joyo to the Shredmaster?Any 'wrong' component values?
I'd like to know cause I'm currently selling this on ebay UK [worldwide shipping :wink:]and I'm pretty certain I'll be missing it!

Sweeeeet!

I want to collect all the V1's even though I prefer more compact pedals.

I still LOVE whenever I see a pic of one!

Anyway, the differences are as follows:

- no bass control (hardwired to about maybe 2:00??? guessing...)

- treble "smoothing cap" at final op amp stage is 220pF (is .001uF in the SM and this is the "blunt" setting of the Hyde side of the J&H)

- the output cap is 10uF vs. .22uF in the SM, but the Joyo uses buffered bypass, and IMO it isn't a huge difference

The above 3 are the only things I can really recall, with only two of them making much of a difference. Neither affects the contour control or the overall nature of the pedal. I personally prefer the stock SM "blunt" setting, but "sharp" does clean up much better, and is therefore a very popular DIY tweak to the SM. And it is stock with the HGD.

Besides, with the Joyo, there is no reason to hold back and keep it stock - you can start throwing all the DIY tweaks you want. I started tweaking mine immediately. I smoothed out the treble at another op amp stage, replaced the clipping diodes with something else, hardwired for less bass (only 1 resistor has to be changed), and slightly tweaked the contour control (just called mid on the Joyo) so that it couldn't scoop as much, with the mids coming in sooner.

I also rewired mine for true bypass, and destroyed the stock footswitch in the process :mad:. Small price to pay, IMO. Mine's going on my pedalboard as soon as the switch gets here, and it's replacing a super highly tweaked scratchbuilt Big Muff. While the Muff is cool, the mid emphasis is obviously fixed (I reworked it to be a distortion and not a fuzz), and the noise floor of the SM/HGD is super low in comparison.

I have a "need" for something like this pedal about 5% of the time, and IMO it has a proven track record for what it does.

MASONish
May 23rd, 2012, 10:24 AM
+1 on Wampler. Go to site. The plexistortion says for that 80's era GnR tone. Only heard em on YouTube though but sounds really great, even for a pedal. Wampler is just a great, great product!

tele salivas
May 24th, 2012, 07:13 AM
Try the Catalinbread RAH. Some great Marshall sounds in that pedal.

lz4If44_XM4

11 Gauge
May 24th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Try the Catalinbread RAH.

It's amazing how some alterations to the WIIO allowed for a pedal that sounds like that!

tele salivas
May 25th, 2012, 06:05 PM
It's amazing how some alterations to the WIIO allowed for a pedal that sounds like that!

:lol:
Right on! Any ideas as to what they did?

11 Gauge
May 25th, 2012, 07:06 PM
:lol:
Right on! Any ideas as to what they did?

I'll have to check in with my "owns all things C'bread" guy. To be honest, I've been so busy that all I recalled was him telling me that it was indeed that (tweaked WIIO).

I guess the "more important technical aspect" (to me) is that the WIIO/RAH both use mosFET's instead of jFET's, which are what you will typically find in the vast majority of C'bread amp'ish boxes.

My C'bread-owning friend knows that I really like messing with mosFET's, so he figured I'd be interested. I'll have to get back to him and ask for more details.

I think he said that it basically has the "Jimmy Page HiWatt" tone circuit, part-for-part. But I'm just guessing to remember what he said.

IMO, mosFET's are a little harder to master getting a good circuit for, but kudos to Nic for doing it!

tele salivas
May 26th, 2012, 04:10 AM
On a side note, Howard Gee is using Rev. Willy's Mexican Lottery brand strings in .08 gauge for that Catalinbread clip. I use the same strings and they sound really good, stay in tune, and you can play for much longer with much less fatigue.

czech-one-2
November 20th, 2012, 03:32 PM
Sweeeeet!

I want to collect all the V1's even though I prefer more compact pedals.

I still LOVE whenever I see a pic of one!

Anyway, the differences are as follows:

- no bass control (hardwired to about maybe 2:00??? guessing...)

- treble "smoothing cap" at final op amp stage is 220pF (is .001uF in the SM and this is the "blunt" setting of the Hyde side of the J&H)

- the output cap is 10uF vs. .22uF in the SM, but the Joyo uses buffered bypass, and IMO it isn't a huge difference

The above 3 are the only things I can really recall, with only two of them making much of a difference. Neither affects the contour control or the overall nature of the pedal. I personally prefer the stock SM "blunt" setting, but "sharp" does clean up much better, and is therefore a very popular DIY tweak to the SM. And it is stock with the HGD.

Besides, with the Joyo, there is no reason to hold back and keep it stock - you can start throwing all the DIY tweaks you want. I started tweaking mine immediately. I smoothed out the treble at another op amp stage, replaced the clipping diodes with something else, hardwired for less bass (only 1 resistor has to be changed), and slightly tweaked the contour control (just called mid on the Joyo) so that it couldn't scoop as much, with the mids coming in sooner.

I also rewired mine for true bypass, and destroyed the stock footswitch in the process :mad:. Small price to pay, IMO. Mine's going on my pedalboard as soon as the switch gets here, and it's replacing a super highly tweaked scratchbuilt Big Muff. While the Muff is cool, the mid emphasis is obviously fixed (I reworked it to be a distortion and not a fuzz), and the noise floor of the SM/HGD is super low in comparison.

I have a "need" for something like this pedal about 5% of the time, and IMO it has a proven track record for what it does.

Keith I just got my Joyo HGD and I think it sounds really close to my old shredmaster! I'd like to change that trebel smoothing cap to .001 though cause I've got the trebel rolled all the way off and its still a bit bright,but not harsh at all. However I dont see any 220pf caps in this thing.Theres only two small yellow caps,one marked 510 and one marked 101.So could you guide me to the trebel smoothing cap?

Dave_O
November 20th, 2012, 04:01 PM
You would have to consider a DLS, no?...

fbgk5hCT39M#!

Maybe my next NPD:mrgreen:

artdecade
November 20th, 2012, 04:11 PM
[Cue Broken Record For All Things Marshall-y]

Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. :lol:

blowtorch
November 20th, 2012, 04:33 PM
Marshall Jackhammer pedal will do nicely, you can really dial that sucker in. And yeah the Hyde side of a J & H. Also GFS Brownie Classic

gtrguru
November 20th, 2012, 06:36 PM
[Cue Broken Record For All Things Marshall-y]

Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. Rat.. :lol:

Funny but kind of true. I have used a rat clone and a tele hot neck pup for Knocking On Heaven's Door and the sound coming out of my BJIII was pretty dead on. Add a little slap delay and the solo just soars. The first solo of that song is one of my favorite riffs to play.

MASONish
November 21st, 2012, 09:03 PM
Wampler Plex-tortion!

adifferentbreed
November 21st, 2012, 10:49 PM
Gotta go with the Rat and the neck pickup on my Tele.

Coldacre
November 24th, 2012, 04:35 PM
you'd be mad to buy a ShredMaster this day and age; they sound great but suck tone. the BYOC Shredder is a bang on clone, true bypass and half the price.

11 Gauge
November 29th, 2012, 12:03 PM
Keith I just got my Joyo HGD and I think it sounds really close to my old shredmaster! I'd like to change that trebel smoothing cap to .001 though cause I've got the trebel rolled all the way off and its still a bit bright,but not harsh at all. However I dont see any 220pf caps in this thing.Theres only two small yellow caps,one marked 510 and one marked 101.So could you guide me to the trebel smoothing cap?

The one marked 101 is the 100pF cap in the 1st gain stage's negative feedback loop. The one marked 510 is the 51pF cap in the 2nd gain stage's negative feedback loop. Most tweaked clones of the SM leave the 100pF cap as is, but the 51pF cap is usually made larger - I've seen some bumped as big as 390pF and such, but that will kill a lot of top end at that stage. It primarily only needs to be increased if the resistor in the loop is made bigger than the stock 680K (there's only one resistor this value in the SM, BTW). Anyway, Barber makes the 2nd loop's cap 120pF in his Dirty Bomb, but the resistor is increased to 820K, just as an example.

...I switched my 51pF cap to 150pF, and it's perhaps a little too smooth. I think that as long as no add'l gain is added to the 1st 2 stages that 100pF (if any change at all) is probably as big as you want to go.

The reason you can't find the 220pF cap is because it is a film type instead of a ceramic. I'm guessing that Joyo has cheaper access to films for sizes 220pF and higher, which from the "premium components" angle is actually nice!

Anyway, I have a pic of what the (actual) cap (that I pulled) looks like below. You will notice that it has the standard "221" designation for small value caps. It is the only 220pF cap on the board - no need to worry about pulling the wrong one.

I apologize for not jotting down the Joyo corresponding component numbers. I was "in and out" of the thing post-haste, as I had little time to doink with it. I actually plan on going back in and finessing it some more. I'll have to make a point to jot down more details. Suffice it to say that all the other film caps are verbatim Marshall values of .001uF, .01uF, .022uF, .047uF, .1uF, and .22uF.

the BYOC Shredder is a bang on clone...

It certainly is, and I suggest using the BYOC schematic for noting changes in the Joyo HGD. C15 is where the BYOC schem lists the stock .001uF cap that we are targeting here - the 220pF "culprit cap" in the HGD. C5 in the BYOC schem is listed as 47pF - the 51pF in the HGD is the same thing.

BYOC DID switch the value at C10 from the SM's/HGD's .01uF to a smaller .0022uF cap, so don't get thrown by that.

Also, Joyo substituted a 68K resistor for the bass pot, exactly like Visual Sound did. I reduced the massive bass in mine with a much smaller 6.8K resistor. If the bass is too much, I actually suggest temporarily subbing in a 50K or 100K pot and adjusting its value, and then hardwiring the corresponding pot's resistance. Alternatively, you could probably squeeze a trimpot in there. There are only two 68K resistors in the HGD. The one you want to avoid is at the final gain stage's input, and s/b close to the 220pF cap you are changing. The "resistor to avoid" is R14 in the BYOC schematic - note that it differs from the SM at a value of 100K (will not give an audible difference from stock, like BYOC did with changing the value at C10).

Other things IMO you may want to tweak? D1 and D2, and C12 and C13 (going by the BYOC schem numbers). If C12/C13 are altered, C11 should be considered for tweaking as well. This is your mid or contour circuit, so if you don't like how it goes from mid suck to "muddy mid bump," this is the area to focus on, IMO. Playing with D1/D2 is self explanatory as far as what it will do...

Good luck!

czech-one-2
November 29th, 2012, 04:13 PM
Thanks .011! Unfortunately, I'm screwed! When I had it apart I took a little technical benzine to clean up some of the goop on the board and most of the cap and resistor values vanished. :oops:
Heres a close up in case you might be able to identify the location of the cap, but I dont expect you to take yours apart!

11 Gauge
November 29th, 2012, 05:35 PM
Thanks .011! Unfortunately, I'm screwed! When I had it apart I took a little technical benzine to clean up some of the goop on the board and most of the cap and resistor values vanished...

If the resistor values vanished at the resistors themselves, that might be a problem. The actual stripes came off with the benzene?

The reason I say that is because the 220pF cap is in the negative feedback loop of the last gain stage. So you can trace its connection between the two pins of the 2nd op amp stage, which IIRC is the chip to the rightmost of the circuitboard.

And the reason it is relevant to know the resistor values is because the 220pF cap will be parallel to the resistor in the negative feedback loop.

Actually, even not knowing is sufficient. Simply look at the 1st 2 gain stages and how the little yellow caps are parallel to the resistors in the loops. The cap in the THIRD loop will be the .01uF cap, and you want to avoid that.

Notice the dimensions of the 220pF cap - it is square. It is also relatively thin. I pulled a .047uF and .1uF cap when doing my tweaks. The .1uF cap is square and of the same x&y dimensions, but is about 25% thicker. The .047uF cap is the same thickness, but is rectangular and therefore less tall.

So around that area on the board, the only other film cap values will be .01uF and .22uF. I'm assuming the singular .01uF cap will also look a little different (and there's only one), and all of the .22uF caps will obviously look the same.

So the 220pF cap is thinner, and it is also square. That should eliminate most if not all of the others. I think it will be in one of the final two vertical rows to the right, going by the picture that I am attaching below.

There is also another way to determine if you have pulled the right one - the pedal will still pass signal (because it isn't an interstage cap), and the mid/contour knob will still function (because it isn't a cap in that tone circuit). The only trick will be not confusing the .01uF with the 220pF cap. That might be easily determined, too. Pulling the .01uF cap should give a bit of a volume boost. Pulling the 220pF cap will make things a bit brighter.

I want to say that it is the vertically oriented cap furthest to the right, but cannot say for certain just by looking at pictures. The 220pF cap also seems a bit more "rounded" or "not so boxed off" vs. the other caps that I'm looking at. So again, target that vertical cap on the right, and see if it matches my description, AND my pic of the 220pF cap earlier in this thread.

11 Gauge
November 29th, 2012, 05:38 PM
Oh crap - just realized that the pic I just attached must be of an earlier HGD, as the layout doesn't match yours. It also does not appear to have buffered bypass like yours does.

My board is the same as yours, so you might have to be patient while I disassemble mine, unless you can dig up more photos with a Google search or something. But it has to be one of two caps like I described, and they should still be closer to the RH side of the board.

Hang in there...you'll find it!

It looks like (going by YOUR pics) it is the top row, second from the right...

czech-one-2
November 29th, 2012, 06:32 PM
Ok, in my pic the cap in the top row,2nd from the right is a .001. Could it be that they already made the change?
The vertical cap to the right of the 3rd opamp is parallel with a resistor and goes to pins 6 and 7 of the third opamp,could that be the 220pf?
I'll definately bump the 51pf up to 100pf but I'd like to find the 220pf cap and make the .001 change!
Sorry to highjack this thread,it should probably be in the spálený prstú forum[burnt fingers in Czech] :wink:

Oh, I may have used acetone to clean...hence the vanishing values :mad:

11 Gauge
November 29th, 2012, 06:45 PM
Ok, in my pic the cap in the top row,2nd from the right is a .001. Could it be that they already made the change?

I doubt it - your board looks exactly like mine. The .001uF cap should be the "bridging" cap in the mid/contour tone circuit. Pulling it would make your mid knob not function correctly. The bridging cap is parallel to a pair of series 33K caps.

The vertical cap to the right of the 3rd opamp is parallel with a resistor and goes to pins 6 and 7 of the third opamp,could that be the 220pf?

That should be it! It should be parallel to a 100K resistor. Bam!

czech-one-2
November 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM
That should be it! It should be parallel to a 100K resistor. Bam!

Yup, 100k it is! Thanks Keith, you've bailed me out yet again! :cool:
I had a gig with this on board, and its a GREAT distortion pedal,inducing musical feedback with a JC-120 at moderate volume levels.Not many circuits can pull that off unless you stack em'! Cant wait to apply these tweeks and maybe change one of the silicones to germanium,but other than that its good to go.
I've had a Barber Dirty Bomb,Crunch Box and of course the old Shredmaster, and this Joyo can hang with any of them IMHO!

11 Gauge
December 2nd, 2012, 01:05 PM
When I had it apart I took a little technical benzine to clean up some of the goop on the board and most of the cap...values vanished. :oops:

I had mine apart a couple of days ago and snapped some pics. I only had time to record the capacitor values and not their specific number designations. I also didn't jot down the resistor values. Those little 4 band 1/8-watt metal film thingies are murder on aging eyes.

I changed some of my caps, but just noted the stock values in the pic. I also pulled the "bridging" cap (the single .001uF) since I'll never be using this pedal to sound like Metallica or Pantera. I only bring it up so that no one is thrown by its absence.

There are some other missing caps and parts - they are only for the buffered bypass. I made mine true bypass and eliminated them as well as the buffer transistor. So at the very least, you know not to consider those caps for the actual SM circuit. That said, I seem to have an "extra" .01uF cap - must be the buffered input cap.

If you pay attention to the "cap clusterings" while referencing a SM schematic, you'll have a good idea as to "what is where" - all the caps for the 1st gain stage, 2nd gain stage, then onto the ones for the treble & bass circuits, and then onto the ones for the contour/mid circuit. You can also sort of make out how certain caps connect to some of the pot terminals, which helps to verify which cap is doing what in the circuit.

I hope this helps. The SM/HGD is a cool one, but IMO it needs a little TLC for certain types of tones. I still need to re-work the treble and mid controls in mine. Since the HGD has fixed bass, I'm making the mid control into a bass control instead.

czech-one-2
December 2nd, 2012, 04:57 PM
^ Thanks for that, this one goes in my DIY file!

twangking
December 2nd, 2012, 05:13 PM
MXR Badass Distortion can do that tone in spades.

pickngrin6670
December 2nd, 2012, 09:01 PM
Wampler "SUPER" Plextortion.
The Best Marshall In A Box . I just one on ebay it is a dicontinued pedal but they can be had. I also have a SLOstortion , As Tony the Tiger say's It'sssssss Great.

11 Gauge
December 3rd, 2012, 12:38 AM
this one goes in my DIY file

Not having the BYOC (and surprised that GGG doesn't have a kit), the HGD really is a decent fixer upper. The layout is decent. Since it's in a 1590BB box, you could even add a bass pot or whatever else you might want to make it a bit more flexible.

It's always cool to have these sleepers to work with, because they are a nice low buck option. In my case, it's just an occasional "rawk tone" pedal, so I'm not gonna drop big cash on it, and I will just slowly tweak it to perfection (or as close to that as I can get) as time goes on.

...And it's pretty close now. Just some more tweaking to the tone controls, and it will probably earn a regular spot on the board (it has to be a bit more flexible than just apeing a few Slash-vibed tones :razz:).