Exciting discovery

I've been playin guitar for 30+ years but just now really starting to try and teach myself theory.

Everyone tells me to learn it will take me beyond anywhere I could go withiout it. Well, I know enough to get started from the little my Dad taught me when I was a kid, which isn't much. I know ABCDEFG and EGBDEFACE and can figure out notes on a staff slowly, but somewhat surely.

Anyway, I started teaching myself what each string's note is at every fret from open. Then started teaching myself which notes are in each chord.
My first chord (for no real reason) was an E chord at the first fret which I figure was made from by forming the notes of B on the A string, B on the D String and A flat (or G sharp) on the G string.

So then I though okay.... then I noticed that if you take each note that makes up an E chord and make a chord of it, it fits musically, but also you can throw a D flat chord in the mix too and it works similarly to the A flat chord and even makes up that popular riff that made the group Green Day so famous (in power chord form). I get why the chords work.

I get why the notes of an E chord work in a song when made into chords.
But why does the D flat (or is it C sharp) chord seem to also work? Is it because there's a G sharp in the E chord? And therefore C sharp is in the scale of the G sharp? Any help anyone can add will ........help.

It is C# and that note is in the E major scale. The chord built off scales tones in E would be C# minor. Check out this thread (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-theory-technique/257931-double-stop-chart-i-made.html), starting at the 4th post and I think you will pick up on why those notes fit.

You are in for a lot of fun discoveries!

And yes, C# is an important note in relation to E. C# is the sixth note in the key of E major, thus the relative minor to E major is C# minor. Meaning that C# minor and E major have all the same notes.

Plus, every C chord has an E as its third. This is an important thing to know that will help you to remember and recognize chords. All basic C chords will consist of the notes C, E, and G. C major is simply those notes, C-E-G. C minor is still those notes but with a flat third, C-E flat-G.

The sharps aren't any different, C# major is C#-E#-G#. Now, this confuses some because there isn't an E#, it is the note F. But you don't write it that way or want to think of it that way, because when you look at music on a staff you will learn to see the C-E-G relationship and will faster know that you are playing some variant of a C chord if you show it as an E# rather than as an F.

But I'm getting off point. What I am trying to say is, every A chord will have as its basis A-C-E, every B chord will have as its basis the notes B-D-F. I could go on, but hopefully this is some kind of help.

This is pretty simplified, of course. Good of you to undertake learning more about music!

Yeah the stuff I play is learned totally bbe ear and familiarity with the fretboard relative to whatever key I need to play or chord progression. I know lots and lots of chords and I have little problem playing solos by instinct - its just lame not really knowing why I'm doing something. It slike knowing a GM 350 engine inside out in terms of building it without knowing how it all works, bu that's much easier to visualize based on each parts desscription, but you know what I mean.

It will allow an explanation for why I do what I dont and lead to things Ive never done before. It's really quite exciting because I can already play to a pro level, I've just learned tunes from CD's which doesn't take me long at all - usually. That and knowing some basics, should enable me to teach myself with occaisional help for all this wonderful community of players.

I've noticed that you were unsure whether the notes were C# or Db and G# or Ab. People often get confused about what to call a note 'enharmonically' and why.

So...
It's important to use all 7 letters from A-G to avoid confusion.

Example: E Major scale

E F# G# A B C# D# E

If you use flat notes in stead of sharps you have:

E Gb Ab A B Db Eb E

You see there is no 'F' or 'C' of any kind. There are two 'A' and two 'E' notes; Ab, A Eb, E

That leads to confusion. Try to keep your sharps and flats as consistent as possible. When working with major scales, if you have sharps keep them all sharp, if you have flats, keep them all flat. This is not always true for all types of scales i.e. harmonic minor (but that's another story) just try to use all letters from A-G and that should help with your understanding.

[QUOTE=Larry Mal;4158986]But I'm getting off point. What I am trying to say is, every A chord will have as its basis A-C-E, every B chord will have as its basis the notes B-D-F. I could go on, but hopefully this is some kind of help.

QUOTE]

Just a quick correction, I'm sure you meant A-C#-E as A-C-E is A minor.

Chabby, since you'ver noticed how you can harmonize the E major scale and that the respective notes that make up the Emajor chord make up the tonic, iii, and V chords respectively. All the notes that make up the chords of the harmonized E major scale will be found in E major. You may ask why the G# chord is minor instead of major. Well, the 3 of the G# major chord is B#. B# is not in E major, but B (the b3) is, hence the minor. Generally, the harmonized major scale will be I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii dim. One of th cool things to do is try different movements from one chord to another in the key and listen to how it either causes tension or resolves. It will help you learn where you want to go.

edit: oh, and for most purposes in the harmonized scale, the V chord will be a dominant 7th

But I'm getting off point. What I am trying to say is, every A chord will have as its basis A-C-E, every B chord will have as its basis the notes B-D-F. I could go on, but hopefully this is some kind of help.



Just a quick correction, I'm sure you meant A-C#-E as A-C-E is A minor.

And B-D-F is the B diminished triad. B major is B-D#-F#.

I thought about correcting this, too, but I couldn't figure out if Larry just mis-typed, or if he meant to speak in general terms, as he said "every" A chord, and "every" B chord, and didn't limit it to major. Perhaps he means that even A minor, A major, A dom 7, A dim., A+, etc. etc., will have as its basis the three triad notes, either sharped or flatted in any given alteration/extension. I'm afraid this is confusing, though, because a C note is not the same as a C# - and you have to start from the notes which are diatonic to the major scale. In any case, I'd tell the OP to think of A-C#-E as the basis for any A major chord, and A-C-E for the basis of any A minor chord. (Same goes for B-D#-F# as the basis for any B major chord, and B-D-F# as the basis for any B minor chord.)

Larry also suggests that E major and C major are closely related chords, following the discussion of why E major and C# minor are closely related. For the purpose of helping the OP, I'd like to submit that E minor is much more closely related to C major than E major is.

Hate to split hairs, but I don't want the OP to be further confused.

I'd say Scantron08 has it right. By "every A chord" I'm sure Larry meant "every chord which is named A-something, (which something can be major, minor, diminished or augmented,) will contain some kind of A, some kind of C, and some kind of E. These kinds of notes can be natural, flat, or sharp."

I thought of that as well, but I wasn't sure. And I didn't know if the OP would know the difference.

There's still a problem, though, and that is the C we're now discussing as used in A minor is really a flatted C#, i.e., we're flattening the diatonic scale chord tone C# (this is discussing only the construct of a minor chord by flattening the third - not contemplating context of key - such as G or C, when a C note in an Am would actually be diatonic to the key). Thus, in that example C is the altered note, and C# is the basis, rather than saying C is the basis note and you sharp it to make it major.

I don't know if this helps the OP at all, but I think jbm and burn and I are all on the same page.

I've played bass by ear for over 20 years without knowing any theory, like you, I knew what to do but not why, I could jam, improvise nice fills and solo's and I never questioned why it worked.

I've only recently started to learn guitar but this time I decided to do it properly and have been learning chords, scales and theory. It's opened up a whole new world to me but I'm glad I'm not the only one that's been able to fudge it for so long!

There's still a problem, though, and that is the C we're now discussing as used in A minor is really a flatted C#, i.e., we're flattening the diatonic scale chord tone C# (this is discussing only the construct of a minor chord by flattening the third - not contemplating context of key - such as G or C, when a C note in an Am would actually be diatonic to the key). Thus, in that example C is the altered note, and C# is the basis, rather than saying C is the basis note and you sharp it to make it major.

I don't know if this helps the OP at all, but I think jbm and burn and I are all on the same page.

Sure, context is everything. A flatted C# is a C natural. When it gets to be a problem is when you have to say a flatted C natural is a Cb. Guitar players don't like Cb, B#, Fb or E#. I won't even mention double-flats and sharps.:razz::cool:

No - I'm so glad I swallowed my pride and tapped all the kind people here for help and ideas. It's just amazing how fast it all makes sense once you know how to play an instrument already. For example one poster above states how Em and C relate more closely that E maj and C, which I know only through playing. In fact I just wwas writing a tune the other day where the tune starts in Em and goes to C, which is just completely natural sounding. Now I know why. That's what this stuff does mostly for me, is just let me know why.

I already know how, now I just am learning the why part. Kind of totally in reverse of the natural learning process. But it does make theory make practical sense. And it explains why the C major works with the Em, but the C maj doesnt work with the Emajor.
It's gotta be a C# for the natural E. Now the E can work also with the C, it's just more natural sounding with the Eminor and easy to see why they are more closely related.

Sure, context is everything. A flatted C# is a C natural. When it gets to be a problem is when you have to say a flatted C natural is a Cb. Guitar players don't like Cb, B#, Fb or E#. I won't even mention double-flats and sharps.:razz::cool:

Yes, that can definitely be confusing to those who are new to it, and Larry Mal did get that part right, but I just want the OP to know that (1) you build major chords by using 1, 3, and 5 of the underlying major scale (and flat the 3rd for minor chords, etc.), and (2) when he's building a major chord by using the 1, 3, and 5 of the A major scale, that the 3rd note he needs to use is C#, not C. The OP just needs to know the A major scale - and that it has 3 sharps.

1 A
2 B
3 C#
4 D
5 E
6 F#
7 G#
8 A

I've noticed that you were unsure whether the notes were C# or Db and G# or Ab. People often get confused about what to call a note 'enharmonically' and why.

So...
It's important to use all 7 letters from A-G to avoid confusion.

Example: E Major scale

E F# G# A B C# D# E

If you use flat notes in stead of sharps you have:

E Gb Ab A B Db Eb E

You see there is no 'F' or 'C' of any kind. There are two 'A' and two 'E' notes; Ab, A Eb, E

That leads to confusion. Try to keep your sharps and flats as consistent as possible. When working with major scales, if you have sharps keep them all sharp, if you have flats, keep them all flat. This is not always true for all types of scales i.e. harmonic minor (but that's another story) just try to use all letters from A-G and that should help with your understanding.

Yep - it sure does, and has always been strange to me in the little I have learned, or tried to learn. I'm still not 100% certain what you mean, but I do understand kind of what you're saying here. This is where I've always just kind of said "screw it" and given up. But this time I'm gonna fight through it until it at least makes sense. I want to be able to know which note (or group) I'm playing on the finger board at any moment and why.

I notice in my Brent Mason video I can only grasp about 1/2 of what he's talking about because of my lack of understanding even basics. He sez he likes to breakdown the fingerboard in triads then "block out" the various licks out in a given triad. While I kind of know what he means by watching him visually and hearing it, I don't really understand it on the level he does, or that I need to.

Yes, that can definitely be confusing to those who are new to it, and Larry Mal did get that part right, but I just want the OP to know that (1) you build major chords by using 1, 3, and 5 of the underlying major scale (and flat the 3rd for minor chords, etc.), and (2) when he's building a major chord by using the 1, 3, and 5 of the A major scale, that the 3rd note he needs to use is C#, not C. The OP just needs to know the A major scale - and that it has 3 sharps.

1 A
2 B
3 C#
4 D
5 E
6 F#
7 G#
8 A

So is the 1,3 and 5 the triad?

A triad consists of a note and its third and fifth. The third can be minor or major and the fifth can be perfect, diminished or augmented. The letter names of the notes in a root position (root as lowest note) triad are always two steps apart in the alphabet (a to g only, of course) ACE, DFA, GBD, etc... and this is why notes sometimes must be designated flat or sharp. You won't see an A major triad written as A Db E; the third must be a C something.

Here is a nifty trick, the sharps and flats go by a circle of fourths/fifths from C

C major = all natural
go up 1 5th and you get 1 sharp:
G major = G A B C D E F#
go up another 5th and you get 2 sharps:
D major = D E F# G A B C# D
etc.

C major = all natural
go down 1 fifth and you get 1 flat:
F major = F G A Bb C D E
go down 2 fifths and you get 2 flats:
Bb major = Bb C D Eb F G A

etc.
C=no sharps
G=1 sharp
D=2 sharps
A=3 sharps
E=4 sharps (F# G# C# D#)
B=5 sharps
F#=6 sharps

F=1 flat
Bb=2 flats
Eb= 3 flats
Ab=4 flats
Db=5 flats


and then it starts to get redundant... Gb=F#

Drew