Are we "too old" for the team?

This weekend, our WT pastor left for a conference in Colorado Springs and a younger one led the P&W. The conference is for mature leaders to address new church music leaders and to prepare them for the music ministry. According to my WT pastor, music directors aged 50 and older are the largest demographic within ministry that are becoming... unemployed.

Well, this subject led to some discussion within my group. Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation. I am the eldest musician at 58.

I find myself wondering if it's time to move on. Then again, I'm always the one to get asked to play every major production. This because I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

When is it time to retire from music?

"When is it time to retire from music?" In my opinion it is when I physically can not play anymore, or God calls me home. At 57 I am one of the oldest members of the WT, although our WT has members from 17 - 66 in age. Our Worship Music Director is 25, and values all of us and our contributions, we all volunteer our time and talents. Ours is a contemporary service and the congregation is a wide age range, from teens to those in their 90's.

Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation. I am the eldest musician at 58.

With all respect, that's crap. I learned more from the oldtimers I play with than anybody else. Not to say they're right all the time, can't make mistakes, or sometimes don't do stupid things, but they've been doing it longer than I have and they know things I won't. Still the case, and I've been playing most of my life.

When is it time to retire from music?

Never. Les Paul was gigging weekly into his nineties. I frankly expect the Stones to keep going until they die. There's no reason to retire unless you physically can't play anymore.

Maybe those churches are too attached to an "image". They somehow want their musicians to be youthful, cool, well, basically with an age limit like American Idol. They have to ask themselves is this music for God or is it to ape pop music?

There have been some major changes in Christianity like a split with a Protestant Reformation, and divisions within those groups, even in music. One thing was a constant and that was a pretty traditional adherence to "high" music, or what some would call serious music. If one were to play music for God, regardless of denomination, it was understood that things like reading music and devotion to church music at the highest level (think Bach) was not only commonplace, it was the most accepted practice. I do remember when it was absolutely the norm that people on the music side of the service did read music and that classical music was the preferred form to worship in church. Sometimes somebody would pull out an acoustic guitar, but there was never the pressure to please the young crowd with trying to be a rock and roll band or complete with top 40 radio. It was all about time and place. But in the 1970s, or when I first started to see gospel break out into the mainstream, then the tradition of trained musicians playing classical music and organs was shattered. That acoustic guitar became electric when conservative Christians no longer thought the instrument to be evil or representative of the counter culture of the 1960s and "church" music evolved at an amazing rate. Historically, a 100 years from now, those days in the 1970s and 1980s when worship music went loud, electric, and resembled a rock concert will be noted. This is neither good nor bad, but a sign of the times. That long haired drummer behind a huge kit backing an electric guitarist with a big amp and rack of effects is as welcome in a megachurch as the old lady in a small chapel playing the Wurlitzer. In essence, it's all good unless the pressure of trying to be "cool", for lack of a better word, becomes the main focus.

It's appalling that anybody would want you, or somebody "older" in your church or any other, to retire. As long as you have the desire and ability to play, they should let you contribute. As you do read music, that's a plus that can have you contribute long after your playing days are over. Today I am going to put down lyrics for a friend's song and due to my CTS, I will sing but can't play guitar right now and though this injury/condition is as real as the NYY being a perennial threat in baseball, I am still only 48. Be very glad you don't have anything stopping you from playing and I hope your band also sees it that way. Like somebody said, Les Paul played into his 90s.

Ahhhh! the human condition rears it's ugly head.

If the church's intention is to use a contemporary music/service to attract a younger congregation (and, whether they admit it or not, that's probably true), then I'm pretty certain a younger looking band might seem like a good idea. One reason I left the start-up church was because I got tired of hearing the pastor say he wanted to see "more energy," which is pretty plain code-speak for "younger."

I know my days are numbered, and honestly, if there was a young buck who was even mildly interested in learning to read a chart and play what was needed, I've said to the WL I'm happy to move to a "mentoring" role and get that transition rolling. That person hasn't shown up yet, and chances are looking more like I may just retire myself before it happens, unless they decide to simply go out and hire someone. Not in my control, so I don't spend too much effort worrying or wondering about it.

Don't ever retire. If you're asking when to leave the WT, do that when they ask you to (in plain English - not code-speak).

OP - you sound like you are very valuable to the WT, no matter your age.

For the Levites (those that prepped/led the sacrifices and worship for the Israelites) 50 years of age was the mark when they would no longer serve in that capacity. When reading the Bible, specifically, OT, I see why. To sacrifice the animals was physically demanding. In today's context, Worship leaders, are not called upon to sacrifice animals (thank the Lord). What it comes down to is the heart. Personally, I've been led in worship by 50+ leaders such as Lenny LeBlanc and younger ones like Lincoln Brewster. The key element and common bond was their love for God which flowed from their changed hearts. "Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart"

If churches are excluding musicians based on age, then there's a double standard at work.

TobyMac is 47. Lincoln Brewster is over 40. The Newsboys have been around forever and today have a single out that everyone is falling over themselves to cover in a P&W setting. I went to a Jake Hamilton concert last year and watched his lead guitarist play as he looked like he was literally just recruited out of 1970's Haight-Asbury. The so-called younger generation is not obsessed with our (older) age. Only my generation and older is. The younger generation likes good music, and authentic worship. I know some 50-60 year olds who are the best at providing that.

I'll be playing, singing until I can't hold a guitar any more or God calls me home. Whichever comes first.

As the oldest non-drummer in our worship community, I guess I have it pretty good. The young people who serve as "worship pastor by committee" are all well under 30. And they all want me to play on their teams. Not necessarily because I'm the best musician in metro Rock City (not by a looooooong shot), but I think some of it is because I've been at this for longer than they've been alive, and they appreciate the experience and musicianship that I bring to the table. If we think evangelistically, that Sunday is less for us than for the unchurched that wander in our door, then it makes sense to bless whatever will bless them.

IMHO, at every level of leadership and ministry we should be training up our replacements so there's no void when we're moved to the next thing we're called to in the Kingdom.

i feel ur pain, DADGAD

new churches like the slick electronica music

i just did an audition where i plugged into a pod that made my tele all swizzly-phasey-chorusy-delayee,
was handed a set of ear-buds, and got to audition w/ JUST the lead 30y.o. euro-looking singer rhythm guitarist.


the audition went, lets see......how do i put this?.....:shock:

At 50, and maybe bragging, a very good bass player, I still seem to be in demand, even with the young guys, but I can see a lot of churches only wanting young folks. Nothing new there. Always some who feel that only the young appeal to the young. That is a mistake.

Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation.

When is it time to retire from music?

Playing in tune is very important. Fortunately, electronic tuners are inexpensive and widely available. Use one if necessary and keep rockin'.

LOL! But I want to use an analog tuner and they want me to go digital. It's gotta be tubes, too!

http://www.cryogenius.com/hardware/power/nixie_a.jpg

Never retire! The older the better! If they are after entertainment the remark about older musicians not being in touch with the youth makes no sense, look at all the older artists in secular music with younger audiences. If they are after spirituality, there's no one better to look to than our elder's. And there is no such thing as "age" in the spirit. So if the worship is being spirit led, age does not hinder anything. Older musicians are more knowledgeable and accomplished. I play on a worship team with four musicians over 50, myself and one are under 30. It's the best worship I've ever had part in! And very spiritual, and it reaches the youth. All the ones from 2 to 20 are the life of our worship services. They are the ones dancing and praising God, while the older folks just stand there! Lol. KEEP PLAYING BROTHER!!! God gave you the gift, use it for Him as long and as much as you can!

Never retire! The older the better! If they are after entertainment the remark about older musicians not being in touch with the youth makes no sense, look at all the older artists in secular music with younger audiences. If they are after spirituality, there's no one better to look to than our elder's. And there is no such thing as "age" in the spirit. So if the worship is being spirit led, age does not hinder anything. Older musicians are more knowledgeable and accomplished. I play on a worship team with four musicians over 50, myself and one are under 30. It's the best worship I've ever had part in! And very spiritual, and it reaches the youth. All the ones from 2 to 20 are the life of our worship services. They are the ones dancing and praising God, while the older folks just stand there! Lol. KEEP PLAYING BROTHER!!! God gave you the gift, use it for Him as long and as much as you can!


Amen.

If the church's intention is to use a contemporary music/service to attract a younger congregation (and, whether they admit it or not, that's probably true), then I'm pretty certain a younger looking band might seem like a good idea. One reason I left the start-up church was because I got tired of hearing the pastor say he wanted to see "more energy," which is pretty plain code-speak for "younger."

I know my days are numbered, and honestly, if there was a young buck who was even mildly interested in learning to read a chart and play what was needed, I've said to the WL I'm happy to move to a "mentoring" role and get that transition rolling. That person hasn't shown up yet, and chances are looking more like I may just retire myself before it happens, unless they decide to simply go out and hire someone. Not in my control, so I don't spend too much effort worrying or wondering about it.

I think we all are in the discipleship business, after all we are not promised to be able to play tomorrow but the church we drive on without us.

While the OP brought up discussions of younger musicians the original push was about music directors, the guys choosing the styles/genres of music played and perhaps the setlist. After being in place for a while as the church elder in charge of music there is a danger of becoming set in your ways. Thinking X is church music, if it was good enough for 1975 then that is how it should be in 2012, while thinking that this christian may be playing Y but it is still not proper church music even if he represents the future of the church. Now a new guy might bring in something us elder musicians would never play or listen to if it wasn't for the job, paid or volunteer, and that along with basic attrition because of age and death will cause the band the worship bands to tend towards younger members

I don't think age should be any barrier. It's about adaptability. If your church plays traditional music then there's no issue. If you aim for more contemporary music but the 60-year old worship leader is sticking with material and styles that were contemporary in the '70s then that becomes more of an issue. It's also about creating opportunities for younger guys to be part of the team - not at the expense of the older ones but alongside.

Our team ranges from 17 to 60-something. At 37, I'm very happy to keep on going as long as I'm called to - playing, being involved in the team leadership, developing my style, learning new material, helping younger or more inexperienced players and even playing with the youth band when they need me!

Stepping aside to make way for others shouldn't be an age thing, it should be an anointing thing. I led worship until recently, when I acknowledged that there were others in the team with a greater gifting for the role and what it requires. On that basis, irrespective of age, I'd happily step aside for someone else.

Keep playing DADGAD,Im 51 and play every week and the other gutar player is a 57 yr old lady that is only paying a couple years.Everytime I think I should quite somebody tells me that day how much they liked the guitar in the songs.This thread really shows the feelings of many and we all agree you stay the coarse.You sound like an awesome player!!!Imagine if the world told Jeff Beck its time to pack it in not the best example but I believe that age and experience is the best teacher and a lot of younger people could learn so much from a guy like you.Its sad to see any church wanting to cop an image for attracting newcomers.I dont think that concept will be blessed.You keep playing and play "LOUD " brother Mikey

I agree with everyone else, keep playing as long as you can, young'ins like me look up to older more experienced players like you and aspire to be able to have the diverse skill set you have.
I am one of 2 or 3 guitar players under 40 at my church, the other 2 are in middle school I believe. There are 3 or 4 other guitarists that are at least 40 and I wish I had the ability play like them. Also our church does a mixture of contemporary and traditional songs.

Then again, I'm always the one to get asked to play every major production. This because I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

Why do you suppose the "current generation" players don't get asked, while you always do?

Maybe the "current generation" is out of touch with what it really means to be a musician.......

This sums it up pretty well for the church I am at along with the answer for me on when is it time to retire. Well said!

If churches are excluding musicians based on age, then there's a double standard at work.

TobyMac is 47. Lincoln Brewster is over 40. The Newsboys have been around forever and today have a single out that everyone is falling over themselves to cover in a P&W setting. I went to a Jake Hamilton concert last year and watched his lead guitarist play as he looked like he was literally just recruited out of 1970's Haight-Asbury. The so-called younger generation is not obsessed with our (older) age. Only my generation and older is. The younger generation likes good music, and authentic worship. I know some 50-60 year olds who are the best at providing that.

I'll be playing, singing until I can't hold a guitar any more or God calls me home. Whichever comes first.

Seems to me that there has become a fairly well defined 'modern,' 'relevant,' 'authentic' P&W sound that many church leaders are catching onto as being a major attractor for people looking for a congregation. "Authentic" doesn't mean from the heart any more, it is the tagline for what I'd call the postmodern P&W sound, which in and of itself is pretty well suited for worship; the simple rhythm, heavy delay/reverb, dynamic yet predictable song structure... All of those things lend well toward creating the environment that seems to help many people turn away from themselves and towards God, in much the same way different modes evoke different emotions fairly predictably. I don't have an issue with the style (in fact, I like it) but I do take issue with the way things like this get rolled out and over people.

The bigger issue here is leadership in a church not communicating the vision they have to the worship leadership. They may see a 45-50 year-old worship leader and assume he can't/won't/doesn't 'do' relevant worship (I very much dislike that term by the way, the fact that people call their style of music 'relevant worship' is inherently saying that what someone else's preference is irrelevant. How arrogant!). Thinking the 45-50 year-old seasoned musical veteran has to go so you can get the sound that will fill the sanctuary without so much as talking to him about the vision for the style of worship in the church is a horrendously short-sighted mistake. Yeah, maybe he won't do it, or can't get into it, but don't assume that! Talk to the guy, you should be anyway!

There is an aspect of continuing to stay current in your profession, be it engineer, doctor, or worship leader, but for all the talk of 'authentic' in today's churches, it sure seems like more of the same dressed up differently. I'd encourage anyone out there serving in praise and worship to be proactive and find out what the desires, expectations, and hopes are of the people you're serving.

It depends if the church in question values faith, service and musicianship over image and trendiness.

I left a church that I helped to grow from a congregation of 10 to over 400 because the general age of the congregation, which was around 28-34 when I started (I was in my late 30's), dropped to around 20-23, and there were a lot of politics and other issues that entered into the mix, a majority due to their inexperience and naivete, as well as a focus more on image than on faith, service and musicianship.

For example, one of the elders (in her 20's) thought it was cool that she worked for Bono's Charity, Red, so she got the pastor to decree that all of the worship team members wear "Red" shirts without consulting the individuals as to whether any of them had any objections or even knew what Red was.

Another decision was to move the drums behind plexiglass and to the far left of the house while the bassist was positioned far right (with no monitors) - because it looked "cooler" - but this left them wondering why the band "didn't sound together" - duh!

I was asked to help fix a brand new Fender Blues Jr. guitar amp because it wasn't working. Turns out the guitarist playing that day had never used a tube amp before and didn't realize that the tubes were missing!

Other people were added to the worship team because they were either "gigging" at clubs or were involved with other areas of the arts in NYC and looked at the church as another gig rather than actually professing their faith and acknowledging responsibility as role models and church leaders. A number of them had/have substance abuse problems and I believe one is doing time for grand larceny and fraud.

I am now blessed to be in a church with a much wider age demographic that boasts impeccably high standards for musicianship and values its members' faith and service for the church, congregation, the community, and in spreading the Word.

Bottom Line - if you have a God given talent and want to use it to serve Him, you never retire - you may just have to find another place to serve. The late Delaney Bramlett once said (when encouraging Eric Clapton to sing) that: "If God gives you a gift, you have to use it or He'll take it away."

Then again, I'm always the one to get asked to play every major production. This because I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

When is it time to retire from music?
Some old dogs can still hunt. Judging from your quote, you've pretty much made yourself indispensable. Good musicians are always in style, and need never retire.

"Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart"

Yep.

Seems to me that there has become a fairly well defined 'modern,' 'relevant,' 'authentic' P&W sound that many church leaders are catching onto as being a major attractor for people looking for a congregation. "Authentic" doesn't mean from the heart any more, it is the tagline for what I'd call the postmodern P&W sound, which in and of itself is pretty well suited for worship; the simple rhythm, heavy delay/reverb, dynamic yet predictable song structure... All of those things lend well toward creating the environment that seems to help many people turn away from themselves and towards God, in much the same way different modes evoke different emotions fairly predictably. I don't have an issue with the style (in fact, I like it) but I do take issue with the way things like this get rolled out and over people.

In my earlier post when I used the term "authentic" I was actually meaning genuine, as in, actual worship. But what you say here is also so true, unfortunately. Just earlier today I was in a conversation with one of our singer/KB players about a song we do sometimes ("We Cry Out"). My teenage daughter, who was over-hearing, commented how she doesn't like our version. I asked why and she said because it doesn't sound enough like Jesus Culture :neutral:. I actually can cop the exact sound and effects for that song, and we have a gal that can do a pretty good Kim Walker. But we aren't a cover band, so, our version sounds different. We could make it authentic Jesus Culture, but then it wouldn't be authentic worship.

This isn't new. I think each generation before us has struggled with this too. Check out this old video from the 70's that has a whole set of Mustard Seed Faith. First of all, I love this style and IMHO it is welcome to come back. But my point in showing it is that at the time, it was considered to be "the postmodern P&W sound" of its era.

Mustard Seed Faith (http://www.hischannel.com/BackQ/9000/9011/.php)

Pretty funny and sad at the the same time. Not much mention of skill or maturity or experience in this discussion.

-Don Potter (60+) is the most skilled worship leader I've seen in 20 years, and that includes every major UK/US/AUS band or leader.

-Our 50+ pastor/drummer is a Berklee grad who subbed for the Tonight Show band and has experience ranging from Sly/Robbie in Jamaica to the Meters in NOLA to Art Blakey.
-Our 50+ female singer has a Grammy and toured with Sergio Mendes.
-The 30+ youngster pianist is a classical/pop improviser.
-We can cover pretty much anything.

My experience in the last twenty years with younger worship leaders is that, with only two exceptions, they tend to lack sophisticated musical skills (i.e., knowing more than one acoustic strum pattern) as well as the freedom to improvise.

I'm 51 and play every chance I can at our church. Thing is, we are a small "Biker Church" and most of the folks are our age. We have a few younger players in their 20's and 30's and we NEED them to grow our church. So the more diverse the age I think the better mix you get from the "old" and the "new". We have been told we can play there as long as we want and as long as our testimony reflects who we are in Him.

So, I'll never retire until I'm playin that "God Worshipin' Rock n Blues P&W in the sky!"

Yo there Willie, remember Ashstreet wouldn't allow us to play Sunday morning one time? Now there's guitars in most all Sunday services. Bet they miss us. I'm 57 and still playing with ya. Who can stop God gifted musicians? Palms 33:3

I'm now 60! I will continue playing until the PW team gets younger and younger and starts playing music I don't like, then I'll move on and keep playing somewhere else until I'm embarassing myself due to going downhill....memory, arthritis, whatever. But do keep playing. I jam with a man 83 years young. I think music is keeping him young. He's played since he was 9.

...Well, this subject led to some discussion within my group. Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation. I am the eldest musician at 58...

When is it time to retire from music?

Relating to the congregation is important... So, IF the current congregation is all in their 20's, I'd suggest listening to current Christian Rock on the radio, I do anyway... If you still like and can play it, no reason to retire, IF that's even what you all play in church.

I'm youngest in our band at 52. We rock. 2 guitars, 1 bass, 2 keyboards and a drummer. No musician who cares about the music would ever ask someone to retire. Retire is in your head man, your as young as you FEEL. Tell the puppies your not ready to stay on the porch...

...I'm the only guitarist that reads music. I'm the only one that can play any style like rock, folk, jazz, flamenco, gospel, funk, country, blues, chamber music, orchestras, etc.

This is the other aspect in the discussion. The most useful P&W musicians are going to be the most versatile, regardless of age. I take it upon myself to be adaptable to whatever style is needed. My most favorite or least favorite style is not relevant unless I am the MD, which I am not.

The best compliment I have ever received was from a visiting MD from a big church in Santa Cruz, who is the brother in law of our WL. He was asked to be our MD that week, and also played drums. For that service I played acoustic and was responsible with being on the same page as him in the pocket. He played jazzy stuff, calypso style stuff, and funky groove stuff. After the service he came over to me and said he appreciated how I played the right thing every time and it was smooth. He said if I am ever visiting his area to call him and if I didn't mind he'll put me to work in one of his services. So I don't mean that to be a brag, cause it's not. I just take what I do for P&W very serious, purposely listen to and try to build up chops in lots of styles. I always want to answer "I'm on that" when the musical direction goes off somewhere different, not to answer "sorry, I don't like that kind of music". As a result I am the one who gets asked to play 2nd guitar for other people.

I'm 44 now, and see no reason that changes at 54 or 64. Besides, I plan to get better as I age :cool:.

A lot of times the younger guys think we older folks are not as hip or up-to-date. I only started playing guitar a few years ago and I am having a ball. At 48, I am the most up-to-date in Christian Music and Worship Music in general on our team. All the kids in church come to me to find out what is new and hot in Christian music.

Age has nothing to do with it. It is all about how God moves me, how current I chose to stay and how much I chose to invest in my craft.

Just tell the young bucks that contemporary worship music is all recycled U2, and we old farts were around and playing when the Edge invented all that stuff.

I was relieved to realize that when I joined a WT a few years ago at the age of 49.

Watching this thread with great interest, and have a few theories. I play almost every Sunday in a big box contemporary church targeting younger adults, but most of the band is my age, because the younger players are not interested, not skilled enough to pull it off at any kind of a pro level, or are simply just not there.

There just aren't as many serious players as there were 20 yrs ago in the youth ranks, and attendance is down in most churches nationwide (of course there are exceptions) especially in the young adult demographic. So, the older players end up with the gigs by default.

This can be a real problem for some, as many of us play music as a profession, and would hope the church would respect our professional contributions just as they would a plumber's or lawyer's contributions. Many churches don't, thus further reducing the pool of quality players.

Then there's the viewpoint of the target demographic: just how do a bunch of 16-30 yr olds react when its a bunch of gray and/or balding 45+ folks rocking out, week after week? Are we actually reaching out to them, or are they just being polite? I know their parents and grandparents (!!!) are digging it, but its not them were are specifically trying to reach, is it - or is it? I can only go on what I thought was relevant when I was that age - trust no one over 30...

And, while our church's numbers are steady, even increasing, it seems the attendees are almost all over 35, married, with families, not exactly your typical rocking audience.

Then there's the viewpoint of the target demographic: just how do a bunch of 16-30 yr olds react when its a bunch of gray and/or balding 45+ folks rocking out, week after week? Are we actually reaching out to them, or are they just being polite? I know their parents and grandparents (!!!) are digging it, but its not them were are specifically trying to reach, is it - or is it? I can only go on what I thought was relevant when I was that age - trust no one over 30...

And, while our church's numbers are steady, even increasing, it seems the attendees are almost all over 35, married, with families, not exactly your typical rocking audience.
I will disagree about the over 35 age group. While they may not go to the local club for drinks and a show on weekend nights anymore we are 60 years into the rock era so I think they are comfortable with 50 year old's playing in church as they are spending hundreds of dollars to see near 70 year old's of the superband in concert for maybe the last time.

Check out this old video from the 70's that has a whole set of Mustard Seed Faith. First of all, I love this style and IMHO it is welcome to come back.

Mustard Seed Faith (http://www.hischannel.com/BackQ/9000/9011/.php)

I can dig it.

So I'm gonna make a broad stroke statement that will probably make me look like a chump but I feel it needs to be said in this thread...

Chuches who have placed their validation in cultural attraction rather than Christ inspired and honoring community are sinful and often deceitful self help pep rallies. Unfortunately people who choose the places as their church home are also reflected in those that lead them spritually. This is not an issue of age as much as its an issue of spiritual maturity. Show me a church that leads it congregation fearlessly with deep, rich, and mature theological truth and I'll show you a church who also craves that musically. That translates at any age and doesn't require bowing to cultral norms..

So I'm gonna make a broad stroke statement that will probably make me look like a chump but I feel it needs to be said in this thread...

Chuches who have placed their validation in cultural attraction rather than Christ inspired and honoring community are sinful and often deceitful self help pep rallies. Unfortunately people who choose the places as their church home are also reflected in those that lead them spritually. This is not an issue of age as much as its an issue of spiritual maturity. Show me a church that leads it congregation fearlessly with deep, rich, and mature theological truth and I'll show you a church who also craves that musically. That translates at any age and doesn't require bowing to cultral norms..

Duncan, you're not a chump at all - that kind of sums up my experience posted earlier in this thread from a more big picture vantage point!

Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation. I am the eldest musician at 58.

I find myself wondering if it's time to move on.

When is it time to retire from music?

In our P&W band, the WL (and our lead guitar player) is in his late 30's, our rhythm guitar players are 59 and 61, our sax player is 58 and our drummer is 50. We play contemporary Christian P&W music and we all enjoy it immensely.

I think the key considerations for selecting music are the setting and the audience. If you're playing in a P&W setting, then you want to select music which is uplifting, worshipful and able to sung by your audience.

Most young people that I know tend to favor music styles which are better suited to a concert setting than to a P&W setting.

Regarding moving on, I see no reason, unless you just can't relate to the music anymore; otherwise, keep making a joyful noise, brother.

And retiring from music? I just don't see that as an option for me. I enjoy it too much.

One other thing I've noticed about the younger players. They seem to have picked up on the new method of "playing by the numbers" or using the circle of 5ths better than some of us older guys. (Not new really ~ just to me) Seems like a good idea to learn that method, saves on paper that's for sure.

You guys using "play by the numbers"?

One other thing I've noticed about the younger players. They seem to have picked up on the new method of "playing by the numbers" or using the circle of 5ths better than some of us older guys. (Not new really ~ just to me) Seems like a good idea to learn that method, saves on paper that's for sure.

You guys using "play by the numbers"?

I don't know that I'm "playing by the numbers", but I DO know that the Circle of Fifths chart is a great tool for learning what key to play for leads, what chords are in a key and transposing keys on-the-fly. I always keep a copy in my music binder.

What I find from a great many of the younger players is the mind-numbing strum patterns and use of no-third chords to play almost everything. There is also an overuse (IMO almost a dependence) on the "2" (add 9) and sus2 chords. There are also too many unresolved sus4 chords. I am 60 now and I have always been the oldest and most experienced and usually the best guitar player on any worship team. I am the guy who has to tell the other players what a #11 or a 7b5 is and how to play them. I also believe that I can sound just as hip as anyone on any recording of any CCM song we want to try. I am not too old for the team.

What I find from a great many of the younger players is the mind-numbing strum patterns and use of no-third chords to play almost everything. There is also an overuse (IMO almost a dependence) on the "2" (add 9) and sus2 chords. There are also to many unresolved sus4 chords. I am the guy who has to tell the other players what a #11 or a 7b5 is and how to play them.

We don't get too crazy with the chordings. The furthest that we deviate from root/minor chords is maj7, maj9, add9 and add4. With the lead guitar playing open chords and the rhythm guitar playing barre chords, the two sounds meld very nicely.

I fixed my misspelling of "too." I never play add4s. If the chart says add4 I play sus4. Too close harmony sounds messy to me.

Furthermore, I believe I have figured out why all these chords started showing up in CCM charts. The cut capo.

http://www.shanebweb.com/tab/capo3.jpg

The second capo barres the 5th, 4th and 3rd strings. If you place it two frets higher than the nut or another capo, the "open" first string forms the 4th of the V chord if you play in the key named by the 6th, 4th and 1st strings. These open droning notes have been incorporated into many of the "new" arrangements of CCM.

I don't do a lot of P&W anymore but when I did I noticed that a few of the worship team leaders that I thought were far and away the best musicians, very dedicated, professional ... and were 50+ or quickly approaching ... were being asked to 'move on'. And looking at it with my very secular eyes I could totally see what was going on - and it wasn't cool and it was completely the wrong move for a multitude of reasons (as it usually is outside of church as well). It happened twice to leaders that I consistently worked for both in and outside of church and it kinda made me not really care that the new team leaders weren't calling me.

The sus2 chords are there to make it easier to switch between open position C and G chords. Keep holding that 2nd string D, and you only have to move two fingers back and forth between the 6/5th and 5th/4th strings. D.C. ad nauseum.

Fancy, modern chords for the lame-o lazy noob guitarist.

The sus2 chords are there to make it easier to switch between open position C and G chords. Keep holding that 2nd string D, and you only have to move two fingers back and forth between the 6/5th and 5th/4th strings. D.C. ad nauseum.

Fancy, modern chords for the lame-o lazy noob guitarist.

Sus2 chords aren't modern noob chords, they are just overused improperly.
And ||: Gsus2 | Csus2 :|| isn't a P&W invention either, it is just highly abused.

Even a whole song filled with sus2 chords doesn't define overuse. It's how they move that is important. Look up the tab for Joe Satriani's Flying In A Blue Dream. Almost every chord in that song is sus2. Why does it work? Because of how they move, and at key points sus2 chords play the role of a minor. Hey, that's what the dang things are for! Not to make it easy to switch between, but to actually provide interesting substitutions of major or minor chords in a song. Yeah, I too wish more P&W guitarists understood that better. The musical side of it would sound so much better.

Furthermore, I believe I have figured out why all these chords started showing up in CCM charts. The cut capo.

http://www.shanebweb.com/tab/capo3.jpg

The second capo barres the 5th, 4th and 3rd strings. If you place it two frets higher than the nut or another capo, the "open" first string forms the 4th of the V chord if you play in the key named by the 6th, 4th and 1st strings. These open droning notes have been incorporated into many of the "new" arrangements of CCM.

You made this up...please, for the love of the art form know as guitar, please tell me you made this up.

Furthermore, I believe I have figured out why all these chords started showing up in CCM charts. The cut capo.
.

I disagree it was the plain vanilla capo allowing key changes,the Paul Baloche Acoustic Guitar method which swpt through worship leader conferences and allowed a single guy with a guitar to comp for himself, do bass string walks with his hand basiccally set in position as if it were in a cast. Little different then a beginning metalhead just comping with powerchords instead using of majors, minors, inversions and extended chords

The cut capo still produces the add4s and the 2 chords and I believe this is the reason for the sudden plethora of those chords in CCM. You look at a P&W book from 30-20 years ago and the chords are standard pop music easy guitar chords. Now every arrangement has 2, 4 and "no3" chords - chords which are kind of standard on the cut capo - all over it.

The sus2 chords are there to make it easier to switch between open position C and G chords. Keep holding that 2nd string D, and you only have to move two fingers back and forth between the 6/5th and 5th/4th strings. D.C. ad nauseum.

Fancy, modern chords for the lame-o lazy noob guitarist.

That C with your finger on the D and G notes is a 2, not a sus2. Sus2 drops the 3rd, 2 keeps the 3rd. I play my open G with my middle, ring and pinky fingers, so it's already easy for me to go from open G to open C without that D note.

You made this up...please, for the love of the art form know as guitar, please tell me you made this up.

Nope, I didn't make it up. Here is a lame explanation of a cut capo, calling an E chord a D chord because I guess it is assumed that guitar players are too stupid to transpose. You can hear how the guy plays I, IV and V as I(no3,) IV2 and Vsus4. FWIW I always call chords by their concert name whether there is a capo involved or not. Ex: open D shape, capo 3, I call it F.

wyDeletIFXc

I tried playing with a capo, albeit briefly, years ago. Just couldn't get used to it.

I keep a capo in my gig bag, but the only time I use it is when I'm setting up one of my Tele's. :wink:

That C with your finger on the D and G notes is a 2, not a sus2. Sus2 drops the 3rd, 2 keeps the 3rd.....Sometimes called "add9" (vs 9th, which is based off a 7th).

Almost always when folks say "2" or "4" the "sus" is implied. The thing about those chords is that they are so open sounding you can add the 3rd (probably not right next to the 2 or 4 :)), and it sounds fine. In fact, you can add a lot of notes....

Yeah, they may be overused, but that's the sound these days. Not defending every use, but you could as easily say the 7th (or 9th) chord is overused in the blues. It's easier to excuse lack of creativity (or just plain laziness) when you believe you are "meeting expectations," and, to a degree, that's what I think has happened. We have the future to look forward to :), at least.
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/waves/Pendulum_animation.gif

Why don't folks just learn to play in alternate voicings and have guitars set up as such? They will invariably sound better. When tasked with acoustic rhythm, I've been known to use a Nashville hi strung, a DADGAD tuning, whatever is needed -

- except that. Each their own I suppose, but I've always thought that was a bit too artificial a means to be backing up what's supposed to be the message of honestly.

Sometimes called "add9" (vs 9th, which is based off a 7th).

Almost always when folks say "2" or "4" the "sus" is implied...

Kinda sorta but not really. The charts I see are constantly referring to X(4) meaning that the 4th is added to the triad. Within the same piece, sus4 means no 3rd, (4) means added 4th. Same with 2. Sus2 = R 2 5, (2)= R 2 3 5. I wish it were standardized in the business.

For the guys talking about the older players being the better musicians and more dedicated... you are absolutely right. I'm 30 years old and the music director at my church. The older players players are generally better because they've been playing longer and are more dedicated generally because they've got their lives more put together, have work ethics built up for many years of work and service. I've really enjoyed seeing the more veteran players teaching the younger ones not only how to play, but how to serve in the church.

DADGAD,

I don't know if you're too old or not, that's only you and maybe your worship pastor can answer.

The young guns are what we are :)

I think the question isn't are you too old is are you flexible? Generally speaking, the young guys will speak your language. They've heard CCR, AC/DC, Boston, Johnny Cash, Pearl Jam, etc. Have you heard Death Cab for Cutie, Coldplay, the Lumineers, Head and the Heart, Mutemath, etc?

I had a guy at my last church I had a guy who was a great guitar player but couldn't play anything that didn't sound like a Lynard Skynard jam band. I love that music but it wasn't what we were doing. I found a place for him in any set that felt country or old school but he role was limited because he could "only play the way i know how"

I have a piano player right now who lives in the world of "Go West Young Man" Michael W. Smith. Great guys. I'm not putting them out on the iceberg, and i'm trying to find a role for them, but they will eventually retire themselves by not being able to move forward in the musical conversation.

but i could be wrong, i'm still working through a lot of this.

This weekend, our WT pastor left for a conference in Colorado Springs and a younger one led the P&W. The conference is for mature leaders to address new church music leaders and to prepare them for the music ministry. According to my WT pastor, music directors aged 50 and older are the largest demographic within ministry that are becoming... unemployed.


When is it time to retire from music?

My short answer to your question is, 'when you can no longer play music that is meaningful to others'. The discarding of older MD's is a big worry, and I think this is more a reflection of our disposable western culture than the needs of ministry. The commercialisation of Christian worship music in many spheres has taken worship into the same trap, to the extent that it is 'ageist' in its bias. Why should matters of faith be 'chart driven'?

When I came to our church as a guitar toting pastor two years ago some people were afraid the older musicians would be discarded. Our solution has been to build integrated teams of newer musicians around three older women who had kept things going on piano and organ for years.

It is true that a couple of the older women do struggle with some newer material that is rhythmically oriented, and so typically these will be the 'guitar' based songs on the day, and sometimes the pianist will sit these out. The pianists are given the lead on our traditional hymns, usually one or two each week, and often play during the offering as well. There is no expectation that everyone plays every song.

Our style of worship respects the traditional and the contemporary, and our musicians range in age from 8 to 75.

I am 56 and nowhere near quitting.

I'm 60, bald and gray. I tried to quit because I thought I was too old and just don't do much of the style of 80% of CCWM (You know...U2, Hillsong, octave doublets, whole songs of rhythm with just 1/8 notes). But some of my closest relationships are with guys between 20-35. They are all in touring bands. I love them and go to their birthday parties, shows, and get together with them and care about them. It's not all about the guitar. It's really something when a young drummer who has played the US and Europe in his band says: "Hey when can we jam again sometime?!"
I think they like that I know how to groove with them, stay in tune, play on beat and play stuff they usually don't hear (60's blues, 70's rock, Travis, Trower, and my own stuff). I think they respect that.

My church recently overhauled our worship music group with a younger more youthful looking group. The former band leader had been the music director for 40+ years and was given the boot. Their explanation? Church attendance is down and we need to make some changes. It's unfortunate that it had to come down to that. I mean the Lord's words are the Lord's words no matter how they are played/sung - it shouldn't matter.

Just an FYI - The band change did not increase church attendance.

-Jagg

This pisses me off. You aren't suppose to just boot out the old, you need to exalt them and put then above the young to train them. Stupid churches too worried about numbers and not enough about Jesus.

Our Church has a rotation of a few various instrumental musicians and/or vocalists, low 30's to the 60+. As a church, we wanted to have all ages worship together in both a traditional and contemporary service. The big picture being worshiping as a "family". Seems to be working IMHO. I am in my upper 40's, and am just greatful to be able to play. Sometimes the fingers are a bit stiff, but hey, it's all about the praise.:cool:

My church recently overhauled our worship music group with a younger more youthful looking group. The former band leader had been the music director for 40+ years and was given the boot. Their explanation? Church attendance is down and we need to make some changes. It's unfortunate that it had to come down to that. I mean the Lord's words are the Lord's words no matter how they are played/sung - it shouldn't matter.

Just an FYI - The band change did not increase church attendance.

-Jagg

That's unfortunate as the younger can learn so much from the older ones,
musically and spiritually. In our church the older guys usually have a much wider base of musical experience and genres to draw from in their musical bag of skills.

That's unfortunate as the younger can learn so much from the older ones,
musically and spiritually. In our church the older guys usually have a much wider base of musical experience and genres to draw from in their musical bag of skills.

You speak the truth,
I'm a 17-yo WL and I love it when our 60+ lead guitarist plays with us. I learn so much from him, and have even taught him a lick or two. We've become friends and it's pretty cool. He suggests old rock/blues worship songs and I love doing them in service!

I'm by far the youngest in our praise band at 44. Last week I got word from our music director (60's) that our priest (60's) thinks the praise band is too old and wants a younger band.

The thing is, we've had plenty of announcements looking for musicians all during the summer, and no one has shown any interest--young or old.

I'm by far the youngest in our praise band at 44. Last week I got word from our music director (60's) that our priest (60's) thinks the praise band is too old and wants a younger band.

The thing is, we've had plenty of announcements looking for musicians all during the summer, and no one has shown any interest--young or old.
It's too bad your priest thinks that way. I believe he should just let the Spirit work in you guys.

Never retire! The older the better! If they are after entertainment the remark about older musicians not being in touch with the youth makes no sense, look at all the older artists in secular music with younger audiences. If they are after spirituality, there's no one better to look to than our elder's. And there is no such thing as "age" in the spirit. So if the worship is being spirit led, age does not hinder anything. Older musicians are more knowledgeable and accomplished. I play on a worship team with four musicians over 50, myself and one are under 30. It's the best worship I've ever had part in! And very spiritual, and it reaches the youth. All the ones from 2 to 20 are the life of our worship services. They are the ones dancing and praising God, while the older folks just stand there! Lol. KEEP PLAYING BROTHER!!! God gave you the gift, use it for Him as long and as much as you can!

This is so right on!

You are not "done" until you're dead! Greg Groschell .

I, too was told by my former church that my season of ministry was over, and that they no longer wanted me ( code for you make too much money and we can get someone cheaper)

I moved on and have found a church that has offered me more opportunities to pastor, in addition to leading worship. Funny thing is, a lot of my musicians friends have followed me to serve at the new church plant where I serve.

However, I work real hard and improving my musical skills, singing, guitar and keys. And I took a part time teaching position at a major guitar chain.

Us older players ( I am 56) can still contribute to the worship community, and we should mentor the next generation.

Just don't wear those skinny jeans!:lol:

I'm by far the youngest in our praise band at 44. Last week I got word from our music director (60's) that our priest (60's) thinks the praise band is too old and wants a younger band.

The thing is, we've had plenty of announcements looking for musicians all during the summer, and no one has shown any interest--young or old.

Say that the priest is too old, and to get a younger one.

You speak the truth,
I'm a 17-yo WL and I love it when our 60+ lead guitarist plays with us. I learn so much from him, and have even taught him a lick or two. We've become friends and it's pretty cool. He suggests old rock/blues worship songs and I love doing them in service!

You might be 17, but you have much wisdom. :smile:You will go a long ways as a WL. My hat is off to you for acknowldging that we can learn from each other new things, instead of always sounding the same and being predictable. Part of what makes a song musical is being predictable with little unpredictable surprises! That's what makes it interesting. I'd love to play with you some time! (I'm 60).

You might be 17, but you have much wisdom. :smile:You will go a long ways as a WL. My hat is off to you for acknowldging that we can learn from each other new things, instead of always sounding the same and being predictable. Part of what makes a song musical is being predictable with little unpredictable surprises! That's what makes it interesting. I'd love to play with you some time! (I'm 60).

I'm honored! I love learning new licks and he's always got a few up his sleeve. Doing the same songs all the time gets boring for me so I like to discover new songs; just this past weekend we did a rock/shuffle version of What a Friend We Have In Jesus on his suggestion and it turned out great.

53 years young & still playing on the worship team after 15 years. Maybe it's because I bring Clapton to the table & not The Edge! :wink:

I don't do a lot of P&W anymore but when I did I noticed that a few of the worship team leaders that I thought were far and away the best musicians, very dedicated, professional ... and were 50+ or quickly approaching ... were being asked to 'move on'. And looking at it with my very secular eyes I could totally see what was going on - and it wasn't cool and it was completely the wrong move for a multitude of reasons (as it usually is outside of church as well). It happened twice to leaders that I consistently worked for both in and outside of church and it kinda made me not really care that the new team leaders weren't calling me.

I missed your post the first time around. If all the 50+ people in the congregation got up and walked out it might get the attention of the leadership.

Not only is aged based discrimination completely opposed to the way of Jesus, but it is also the 50+ people who provide most of the financial platform for any church.

This whole age thing is based on the anxiety of leadership with misguided focus - I am 57 and still younger than all the members of AC/DC who still pull a crowd of young people. Its about attitude and enthusiasm.

My church recently overhauled our worship music group with a younger more youthful looking group. The former band leader had been the music director for 40+ years and was given the boot. Their explanation? Church attendance is down and we need to make some changes. It's unfortunate that it had to come down to that. I mean the Lord's words are the Lord's words no matter how they are played/sung - it shouldn't matter.

Just an FYI - The band change did not increase church attendance.

-Jagg

If it doesn't matter how it's sung then it shouldn't matter if a change was made (just making the logical conclusion)

Seems there's an 'us-and-them' feel about much of this thread. Is it not about stewardship and being caretakers of our gifting? Honoring those with skill, maturity and experience,
IMO, is in the same continuum as training and preparing the next generation to lead theirs, in time.

One without the other is hipster superficiality or curmudgeonly holding turf.

Churches comparing numbers to another is a trap. If a growing church has a younger team and congregation, it could be the fruits of years of unseen sowing by those with wisdom, vision and years under their belts. The problem arises when another church wishes for the same and superimposes a result (ie overhauling the old for the new) but not having turned the soil.

Also, I agree that P&W music on a technical level is shifting to a less sophisticated/complex sound, and it's not the younger players who can but don't - they can't because there is no need. Extended chords were more predominant when worship songs were piano written and driven.

These days, add9 is delay, #11 is your phaser and m7b5 is your OCD or Fulldrive II.

Talk about chord substitution.

Never retire! I'm sorry if I'll offend someone now, but the "new kids" can very rarely play some great music. I'm talking mainly guitarist here, the rock scene after '00 is my main argument. To me a great guitarist doesn't have to have a solo in every song, but I like players that are distinctive and easy to recognize after few notes. IMO the more experienced musicians can always do better and we are talking about Worship of God here, not trying to follow a certain trend. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a bit over 2000 years old right now so that would make it totally unacceptable in terms of trend. I'm 29 now and consider myself young, but with "classical training" :-D listening to guys who really made it happen in terms of guitar. As someone said previously here, God gave you this gift, glorify Him with it until the day you will be called to His presence.

I had to scan the thread to make sure I hadn't replied already...

Unfortunately, some churches are very "in tune" (gag) with tactics used by the entertainment industry to secure certain demographics (more gagging.) For a short, teeny, miniscule second I thought this was okay, but now I see differently. They will choose youth pastors not by qualification but by age, because the 20-35yo will be more relatable to the teens than 40+. "promote" a 50+ pastor out of his church and bring in a mid-40's one to keep the face of the church young and hip and more relatable to the target demographic age. Choosing a 29yo married-with-2-kids worship leader because the leaders want to bring in more young married couples having kids, because that makes the statistics look better. "cast the peers of those you're trying to reach." (vomit.) See my blog entry Level Ground for the impact this logic has on the attentive church goer.

I'm 17, so I'm still a young guitar player. In our youth service we do a decent amount of dotted 8th note stuff. However, I try to keep my tone my own, and not the edges. I have great respect for all the guitar players in my church, and one has even helped me switch the pots on my tele :grin:

I guess my question is this: what is the biggest gaff you more experienced players have with us lesser experienced players?

I guess my question is this: what is the biggest gaff you more experienced players have with us lesser experienced players?
Over playing. You do not have to play something every measure just to keep your hands moving in time. You don't have to triple the bassline along with the pianist and bassist. A guitar and keyboard doesn't need to provide a pad of the basic chord in the same octave range....

I had to scan the thread to make sure I hadn't replied already...

Unfortunately, some churches are very "in tune" (gag) with tactics used by the entertainment industry to secure certain demographics (more gagging.) For a short, teeny, miniscule second I thought this was okay, but now I see differently. They will choose youth pastors not by qualification but by age, because the 20-35yo will be more relatable to the teens than 40+. "promote" a 50+ pastor out of his church and bring in a mid-40's one to keep the face of the church young and hip and more relatable to the target demographic age. Choosing a 29yo married-with-2-kids worship leader because the leaders want to bring in more young married couples having kids, because that makes the statistics look better. "cast the peers of those you're trying to reach." (vomit.) See my blog entry Level Ground for the impact this logic has on the attentive church goer.

I just read your Worship Convergence and I have to say that I really enjoyed it. Well written and Biblically sound. Thank you for sharing it.

I just read your Worship Convergence and I have to say that I really enjoyed it. Well written and Biblically sound. Thank you for sharing it.

Thanks for reading! Glad you enjoyed it. When I wrote that particular entry, I had a film noir voice-over in my head. :lol:

Over playing. You do not have to play something every measure just to keep your hands moving in time. You don't have to triple the bassline along with the pianist and bassist. A guitar and keyboard doesn't need to provide a pad of the basic chord in the same octave range....

Thank you for answering my question! I actually started playing our youth band on piano; and during my time playing piano, I would do this all the time. I have learned this lesson for the most part, but perhaps I can learn it again.

The thing I am learning is how playing and not playing effects the dynamic. in my opinion, dynamic is one of the biggest differentiators between a good band, and an average band. Playing the right notes/chords helps too :lol:

Tim

Our church is in this phase, ever so slightly. Our church is just over 11 years old, and we refer to ourselves as a "church for the unchurched," and we try and bring-in the younger demographic to our fellowship. There are plenty of "regular" churches in our town, so we try to be different.

Our previous WL (of 6 years) was called to Japan to serve, and he left right at 40. After him, I'm the next oldest guy at 38 (39 on November 19) -- and I've been in the band for 9 some-odd years playing guitar and singing. Of course, both my arms are full of tattoos, I wear Threadless Shirts 99% of the time, and most people think I'm in my 30s. Ha.

From there, we're at, like, 37 (keys, female, hawt) and 35 (lead guitar) -- then we have our new drummer and our new Worship Leader. Drummer is 23, and our WL is 27. Skinny jeans, hair gel, etc.

I can see where ol' RAILhead (aka Maury to people in real life), in several more years, will probably need to pass the torch...maybe. I figure if the band looks young, sounds young, performs young, exudes energy and excitement -- we're good to go. BUT, if my knees keep on hurting, and my back keeps giving me fits, this "younger looking than he is tattooed guy" probably needs to hobble off the stage, haha.

Younger guys said that older players aren't in tune with the current generation. I am the eldest musician at 58.

I find myself wondering if it's time to move on. When is it time to retire from music?

When you don't enjoy it anymore. As long as you enjoy what you do, then keep doing it.

Personally, I think it's wonderful to have "torch bearers" in the band because it gives them the opportunity to impart their knowledge and wisdom to the younger ones. There's much more responsibility involved in being a band member than just simply plugging in and playing along.

Over playing. You do not have to play something every measure just to keep your hands moving in time. You don't have to triple the bassline along with the pianist and bassist. A guitar and keyboard doesn't need to provide a pad of the basic chord in the same octave range....

I know plenty of older players who are just as guilty :)

The problem I have with younger players is selfishness. The problem I have with older players is selfishness.

It just works itself out in different ways

In this specific case "young" would mean inexperienced in playing in a combo. Being the fifth seat trumpet player in a school stage band you are playing with your section. Playing along with the record at home on guitar or piano you are probably trying to play all the signature parts along with the basslines and chords. Taking those experiences to a combo or praise team is often the sign of someone new to our type of playing

The world is only focused on youth. The sad part is the church is now following the same thing. I actually registered because of this thread.

I became a Christian as an adult. God gave me a revelation and I believed it. My husband and 2 children began to lead worship together but only for a short time. They are in their 20's. My husband had asked God when my son was 3 that he wanted to serve Him and play for Him some day together as a family with my son and daughter. I did not know this until I came to know the Lord and after God gave me a revelation, of the group name, purpose, emblem,etc... When my husband asked God for this, we were catholic and not really following God. After an almost divorce we came together and shortly after I recieved the revelation.

I used to play organ a bit, but after 18 I no longer had a keyboard and never played again. I self taught to play again and we began leading worship. I am not the best but I try.

My dllemma is that I feel I am too old for this. My son keeps wanting to put other people in the ministry that of course are his age. I feel pushed out more and more. My husband the same. He has criticized us for not having better skills and not practicing more on our own for self improvement. My son has talent, and others seem to focus on him. They say he has anointing, and that he sings with his heart.

This makes me happy but then I am beginning to feel that this was all in my imagination. I have focused so much on this ministry that I no longer feel I have a purpose. I just want to give up. I feel that the message I get is that people who are old should not exist anymore. Christian radio only talks about youth. But what if you came to God as an adult? Does that mean you only warm up a bench? There is no room for adults? So the only thing left is to mentor the young? How could you mentor if you just came to God too?

I welcome replies. I am feeling quite vulnerable now. 😪

The world is only focused on youth. The sad part is the church is now following the same thing. I actually registered because of this thread.

I became a Christian as an adult. God gave me a revelation and I believed it. My husband and 2 children began to lead worship together but only for a short time. They are in their 20's. My husband had asked God when my son was 3 that he wanted to serve Him and play for Him some day together as a family with my son and daughter. I did not know this until I came to know the Lord and after God gave me a revelation, of the group name, purpose, emblem,etc... When my husband asked God for this, we were catholic and not really following God. After an almost divorce we came together and shortly after I recieved the revelation.

I used to play organ a bit, but after 18 I no longer had a keyboard and never played again. I self taught to play again and we began leading worship. I am not the best but I try.

My dllemma is that I feel I am too old for this. My son keeps wanting to put other people in the ministry that of course are his age. I feel pushed out more and more. My husband the same. He has criticized us for not having better skills and not practicing more on our own for self improvement. My son has talent, and others seem to focus on him. They say he has anointing, and that he sings with his heart.

This makes me happy but then I am beginning to feel that this was all in my imagination. I have focused so much on this ministry that I no longer feel I have a purpose. I just want to give up. I feel that the message I get is that people who are old should not exist anymore. Christian radio only talks about youth. But what if you came to God as an adult? Does that mean you only warm up a bench? There is no room for adults? So the only thing left is to mentor the young? How could you mentor if you just came to God too?

I welcome replies. I am feeling quite vulnerable now. dde2a

I do believe it sort of depends on the congregation you're worshiping with. I lead worship at a Lutheran church actually not far from Otown (cool to see a local TDPRIer, welcome!). My church "caters" a lot to the older generation. Probably mostly due to the Lutheran traditions appealing to seniors anyways. We do have a good youth ministry, however the adult program is always tended to a little better.

I dunno though, I'm 17 and they brought me on as a worship leader over a year ago. Maybe that's their attempt to "youth it out" :oops:

When we had a young worship leader he was an intern from the local Christian college. Upon graduation he moved on to become an associate pastor of a church. It is about the development of young church leaders also. When Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. started as a senior pastor the board of Deacons did not select him as a 26 year old pastor of perhaps the most prestigious church in their community just because he went to school, he was developed as a younger man with practical experience

The world is only focused on youth. The sad part is the church is now following the same thing. I actually registered because of this thread.

I have focused so much on this ministry that I no longer feel I have a purpose. I just want to give up. I feel that the message I get is that people who are old should not exist anymore. Christian radio only talks about youth. But what if you came to God as an adult? Does that mean you only warm up a bench? There is no room for adults? So the only thing left is to mentor the young? How could you mentor if you just came to God too?

I welcome replies. I am feeling quite vulnerable now.

Don't give up, foomouse, because that's just what the Devil wants you to do. As a believer, you are threat to the message of evil in this world. The Devil will do all he can to distract you from the Truth.

You were called by our Lord because He loves you and He has a purpose for you in this life. Be open to His leading and obedient to His call - and He will equip and defend you, each and every step of the way! Trust Him!

Coming to the Lord in adulthood is not uncommon, but it can be challenging if you bring your yardstick along. Leave your yardstick at home (and encourage others to do the same) and follow the message that God places upon your heart. Certainly listen to what others have to say, but do so with a discerning ear, and when you have doubts, seek the Lord in prayer and he will reveal His truth. Learn to trust those "inner promptings".

How can you be a mentor? I'll tell you how. By reading a book, listening to a lecture or watching a movie, you learn about many things, and in the end, you gain knowledge. However, by living life to its fullest and by experiencing the circumstances and consequences of choices along the way, you gain wisdom. Wisdom is much more valuable than knowledge, and it doesn't come by reading a book. It only comes by living life!

You bring a lot of wisdom to the table, foomouse. Use it. You're a child of God, and God doesn't make junk!

Foomouse,

There's a lot going on in your post. I'm not sure I understand everything you are getting at but ill say this:

-if you had a revelation (and I'm not doubting that you did) then God can also reveal the same thing to others. Plus revelations don't exist on our time table.

-if the issues is that your skills aren't where they need to be then that's not a closed door, just practice and grow and then see where things go

- if the issue is age, could it be that your style doesn't fit what's going on because the players in the band are younger and your playing an older style?

For what it's worth, most Christian radio is either geared to mothers ages 30's and 40's and or older Christians 60+

I'm 54 and play with a diverse group of musicians.
At my home Church it's all young folks who are pretty green and doing mostly United, Jesus Culture and the like.
With one particular group more Black Gospel oriented.
With another circle it's older folk and we do whatever the spirit leads most of time and don't know where we are going till we get there.
Examples
With Kent Henry at Cathedral of the Cross
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4142009
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4140608
With Jeff Coover at Cathedral
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=5513317
Wade Brasher and Set free
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6790839
Wes Bayer at Birmingham Prayer Furnace
https://www.box.com/shared/x9bzd9cdm8
I have great gear am playing the best I have ever played and stay current in listening to newer stuff. I intend to keep playing till my body won't keep up with the younger cats anymore!

I'm 54 and play with a diverse group of musicians.
At my home Church it's all young folks who are pretty green and doing mostly United, Jesus Culture and the like.
With one particular group more Black Gospel oriented.
With another circle it's older folk and we do whatever the spirit leads most of time and don't know where we are going till we get there.
Examples

I have great gear am playing the best I have ever played and stay current in listening to newer stuff. I intend to keep playing till my body won't keep up with the younger cats anymore!

Acension, there are two things that mentioned that are key. 1. there is a defined sound, what phases out a lot of older players is that they refuse to play the sound the band is going for, i.e. clapton blues riffs over hillsong. 2. you're trying to stay current.

that's a huge difference

Dang, I'd never refuse to play Clapton blues riffs over a Hillsong tune if asked! :mrgreen:

But Nub, what if you're asked not to? Ignoring the fact that those riffs don't fit the style.

It's not different than if I played indie rock riffs with a band doing old vineyard / Maranatha stuff.

But Nub, what if you're asked not to? Ignoring the fact that those riffs don't fit the style.

It's not different than if I played indie rock riffs with a band doing old vineyard / Maranatha stuff.

Nub is pulling your chain. You said, in so many words, "...they refuse to play clapton blues riffs over Hillsong" - or at least that's how your wording could be interpreted. Nub just picked up on your somewhat confusing wording and reversed it from what he knew you meant.

And, I have to agree with Nub... if asked to play Clapton blues riffs over Hillsong, I would never refuse. :mrgreen:

Nub is pulling your chain. You said, in so many words, "...they refuse to play clapton blues riffs over Hillsong" - or at least that's how your wording could be interpreted. Nub just picked up on your somewhat confusing wording and reversed it from what he knew you meant.

And, I have to agree with Nub... if asked to play Clapton blues riffs over Hillsong, I would never refuse. :mrgreen:

You are a wise man, GeetarPlayer, and definitely have the gift of discernment! :wink: :lol:

I think age has no bearing on musical abilities or style. Show me a young musician who can out-do the Rolling Stones or Ozzy (all over 60). The problem is many musicians get lazy and complacent and quit growing and adapting: this makes your abilities old and tired - not your age.

You are what you listen to.

And if you don't practice then you have no right to complain.

I think the idea of being "too old" is ridiculous. As a young guitarist (19 years old), I have learned SO MUCH from our bass player, who is I think 49. He has played all throughout the eastern US back in his younger days and has shared with not only me but everyone else in the band numerous tips, tricks, etc. on how to be a better musician. If he wasn't in the band because people thought he was "too old" my progression as a musician would have been greatly hindered.

.. I think the question isn't are you too old is are you flexible? Generally speaking, the young guys will speak your language. They've heard CCR, AC/DC, Boston, Johnny Cash, Pearl Jam, etc. Have you heard Death Cab for Cutie, Coldplay, the Lumineers, Head and the Heart, Mutemath, etc?...but i could be wrong, i'm still working through a lot of this.

I'm one of the older ones (53 or 54, it's hard to remember anymore :lol:). Sometimes there is an "appearance" prejudice that has nothing to do with music, more about the image the church wants to project from the stage ("we are young/hip", "we value ethnic/age/gender diversity and are inclusive", etc). ... and there is probably a legitimate place for considering that provided doing so doesn't compromise the music in a big way. As it concerns the music specifically, I think yours is a great point about not keeping current. If my rig is guitar straight into a tube amp and I consider the reverb and trem knobs my "effects chain", I would have a real problem providing the huge reverb, ambient swell stuff that seems to be so hot today (if I was even current enough to know it WAS hot). I have been blessed with talent, and hope to keep using it as long as possible, but it's not about me, this is service. If me stepping aside and yielding to a younger player (or older organist for that matter) will advance the cause of Christ, I'm gone in a second. I would get creative and try to use my God given gift somewhere else (even a secular venue). Bottom line, I would hate to get asked some day why I was a stumbling block to the kingdom, because I don't think "because I was 5 times the player that kid was and could play circles around him in my sleep" would be an acceptable response:oops:

"Once I was young but now I am old...."

I've been playing in church for 35 years, I believe, but maybe 36. I've been lead pastor in 3 churches and worship pastor in two. I've worked with people (much) younger than me and others (much) older than me. Here are five things I know:

1. Churches that are trying to "be young" are playing a losing game. The church can never be as cool as what the world offers (adolescent rebellion and sex). The world offers James Dean / Jim Morrison / whoever this year's heartthrob is. We offer slavery to a Guy who got nailed to a cross and tells us to think of others before ourselves.

2. What we can be is a community where God is honored, and the eternal yearning of the heart is satisfied, and into which anyone can come and be loved. That "anyone" can be saintly but a stodgy grandmother, an ex con, a college quarterback, a billionaire, or a 14-year old girl with body issues.

3. If we want to be the place of respect and love we need to love and value the olders (by understanding and using their gifts and not kicking them out) and love and value the younger (by understanding their enthusiasms and limitations and making them feel comfortable in the setting).

4. We olders can be servants by playing out of our comfort zones and learning styles we don't necessarily like; in my 20s I had to do that with country, and in my 40s I had to do that with Hillsong. In doing so we model for the immature behavior that they need to internalize and externalize: submitting to one another out of love for Christ.

5. A healthy church isn't young or middle aged or old, black or white or mixed, rock or country or shoe-gaze. It's just healthy.

"Once I was young but now I am old...."

I've been playing in church for 35 years, I believe, but maybe 36. I've been lead pastor in 3 churches and worship pastor in two. I've worked with people (much) younger than me and others (much) older than me. Here are five things I know:

1. Churches that are trying to "be young" are playing a losing game. The church can never be as cool as what the world offers (adolescent rebellion and sex). The world offers James Dean / Jim Morrison / whoever this year's heartthrob is. We offer slavery to a Guy who got nailed to a cross and tells us to think of others before ourselves.

2. What we can be is a community where God is honored, and the eternal yearning of the heart is satisfied, and into which anyone can come and be loved. That "anyone" can be saintly but a stodgy grandmother, an ex con, a college quarterback, a billionaire, or a 14-year old girl with body issues.

3. If we want to be the place of respect and love we need to love and value the olders (by understanding and using their gifts and not kicking them out) and love and value the younger (by understanding their enthusiasms and limitations and making them feel comfortable in the setting).

4. We olders can be servants by playing out of our comfort zones and learning styles we don't necessarily like; in my 20s I had to do that with country, and in my 40s I had to do that with Hillsong. In doing so we model for the immature behavior that they need to internalize and externalize: submitting to one another out of love for Christ.

5. A healthy church isn't young or middle aged or old, black or white or mixed, rock or country or shoe-gaze. It's just healthy.

Great post Dave!
Thanks for the encouragement !
Steve

[QUOTE=DADGAD;4144118]I find myself wondering if it's time to move on./QUOTE]

I'm 53 and our church (Presbyterian) is a bit old school to be honest and it's me continually pushing for progress. Our local band of international note is Bluetree and their stuff is right up my street.

I think the answer is to start doing your own thing on the side (solo). I did that and it completely removed all the frustration from other areas. Ask if you can do a solo spot or something.

God bless mate! :grin:

I think it depends on how flexible you are. I've always been very open to every type of music except rap and blend well with our younger musicians who look up to me because I've played thousands of songs over the years, lead solos, licks, phrases, chord progressions, and can pay most of the songs if I just hear it once or twice plus I can jump right into a song and use the things I've learned over the years to make it sound better. I'm not trying to toot my own horn; its just the facts; i played in many different types of bands over the years so I bring rock, metal, C&W, jazz, R&B, soul, disco (yes even this), bluegrass, and P&W experience to the table, did it semi-professionally, did recording and met and played with some famous people along the way occassionally...:)

Add to that i mod my own guitars and pedals and am pretty knowledgeable about how to get professional sounding tone and I usually get asked a lot of questions by them about gear and how to use it. I tell the youth to bring any songs they want to learn then learn it myself and teach them. I love mentoring them and will pass the torch on to them when it's my time and they're ready...lol

I'm 17, so I'm still a young guitar player. In our youth service we do a decent amount of dotted 8th note stuff. However, I try to keep my tone my own, and not the edges. I have great respect for all the guitar players in my church, and one has even helped me switch the pots on my tele :grin:

I guess my question is this: what is the biggest gaff you more experienced players have with us lesser experienced players?

As long as the younger player has talent, control / restraint (don't throw in crazy solos when it's not approprriate or noodle at the wrong times to show off; remember we're playing for God; not to let other people how good or bad we are on the instrument...:shock:), plays in context (no Lady Gaga licks or phrases during Hillsong), is a good team player (doesn't try to take over and act like he knows what would sound best, however if you have an idea that you think would make us sound better throw it out there; can't hurt), has good timing / rhythm and a sense of what good tone is (this takes time / experience to learn) we should sound good working together. If they are lacking in any of these areas I try to teach them whati know to make them better. We were all there once too you know. One day you will be in our shoes to pass the torch. You will learn that nothing beats experience...:grin:

BTW I love it when I hear fresh new song ideas that the youth have that sound good and take me in a direction I've never been before. You are never too old to learn.

"Once I was young but now I am old...."

I've been playing in church for 35 years, I believe, but maybe 36. I've been lead pastor in 3 churches and worship pastor in two. I've worked with people (much) younger than me and others (much) older than me. Here are five things I know:

1. Churches that are trying to "be young" are playing a losing game. The church can never be as cool as what the world offers (adolescent rebellion and sex). The world offers James Dean / Jim Morrison / whoever this year's heartthrob is. We offer slavery to a Guy who got nailed to a cross and tells us to think of others before ourselves.

2. What we can be is a community where God is honored, and the eternal yearning of the heart is satisfied, and into which anyone can come and be loved. That "anyone" can be saintly but a stodgy grandmother, an ex con, a college quarterback, a billionaire, or a 14-year old girl with body issues.

3. If we want to be the place of respect and love we need to love and value the olders (by understanding and using their gifts and not kicking them out) and love and value the younger (by understanding their enthusiasms and limitations and making them feel comfortable in the setting).

4. We olders can be servants by playing out of our comfort zones and learning styles we don't necessarily like; in my 20s I had to do that with country, and in my 40s I had to do that with Hillsong. In doing so we model for the immature behavior that they need to internalize and externalize: submitting to one another out of love for Christ.

5. A healthy church isn't young or middle aged or old, black or white or mixed, rock or country or shoe-gaze. It's just healthy.

DAVE! You knocked it outta the park on that one brutha! I am seriously gonna copy this post and stick it on my office wall so I can refer to it frequently.

DAVE! You knocked it outta the park on that one brutha! I am seriously gonna copy this post and stick it on my office wall so I can refer to it frequently.

+ 1

"When is it time to retire from music? "

The day after they close the box on you. It seems you have too much to offer the members of your church to let random opinions deter you.

Craig Groschell from LifechurchTV.org said, " you're not done until you're dead"

Granted there are a lot of churches who do not want anyone over 40 years old or who have grey hair on stage... That's me :shock:

Had a great worship experience this past weekend. I was invited to sit in on pedal steel guitar for Mars Hill Church here in Portland, Or. I had to be at least 20 years older than any of the worship leaders on stage. Yet it was very affirming, to serve them and the church. We played a lot of hymns, done in a country gospel style, which fit pedal steel well. Made some new friends , and was honored and plan to come back soon to play ( singing and playing guitar is my main thing)

My point, ( as others have said) ask The Lord to lead you to places where you will be welcomed and appreciated for what you do. I think this applies to all ages. Be humble and go serve where God leads, no matter how large or small the church is.

hotraman,

You're the example of what I've been talking about. I don't want any age limits, but you're playing with the band instead of expecting the band to play with you.

Mars Hill is a great example because they don't have an age limit. But the way they structure their music around bands instead of teams makes it easier to understand that you serve the music and the church and not the other way around.

I played electric for our young worship leader last weekend. (she's 19, and i'm 30) The last song gave me a few cringes cause i wouldn't have done it that way, but I got the sounds she wanted and that's just how it goes.