how can i test a 4 way switch before reassembling?

Hi everyone. I just finished soldering the last of the wires for a 4 way switch to my American Special tele. My soldering skills aren't really the greatest, so i'm wondering if i can use a multimeter to test certain points to tell me if i got it right before i put everything back together and string it up.

what i have tried so far is setting my multimeter to 20k ohm, and touching the leads to the points where the output jack wires are soldered on. here's what i got so far (pickups are texas specials):

position 1: 8.9
position 2: 8.9
position 3: 5.68
position 4: 5.68

it seems wrong to me because i figure positions 1 and 3 should be similar since they are just one of the pickups alone, and 2 (parallel) and 4 (series) should be similar since those are supposed to be both pickups working. then again, i really don't know much about this stuff so i could just be making a fool of myself here.

another note: i plugged the guitar into my amp, and with my screwdriver lightly tapped the pickups, and this happened:

Position 1: i can hear the taps through the amp from the neck pickup, nothing from the bridge.
Position 2 (parallel): i can only hear taps from the neck pickup, nothing from the bridge
Position 3: I can hear taps from both pickups.
Position 4: i can hear taps from both pickups.

seems to me like i got something wrong with the bridge pickup, but no matter how many times i go over the wiring diagram, everything seems right, and i can't see any solder joints shorting anywhere that might cause a problem.

i used the standard wiring diagram that comes with the fender 4 way switch.
advice is much appreciated!

Well, well, well isn't this a familiar plight. I feel for you doof. I just spent a years worth of headaches in the last month or two wrestling with the same issue. You have my deepest sympathies. :sad:

I'll post you the link to my thread about it and all of the guys who chimed in with advice. I'm sorry to say none of it worked including a months worth of semi-professional email consultation with my good friend sjtalon who has successfully installed many of these from exactly the same diagrams we've all used any number of times. And it's a pretty typical wiring scheme for everyone around here.

Here's the link; http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technical/316277-awfully-strange.html

I really don't know what to tell you since after about 20 failed attempts I ended up taking it to a luthier friend of mine and even he failed to get it working as per that wiring scheme. So in order to get it functioning like it should I now introduce to you the "Armani 4-way Mod" named after my luthier friend since he deserves all of the credit for figuring this one out.

If you go to my post #112 in that thread you'll find the diagram I made of his wiring scheme. There's also a thumbnail of it posted in post #106

I can't tell you why this works because neither could he nor could my friend sjtalon since by all rights it shouldn't......but it does. Of that much I am certain. Of course the pickup selection is a bit different but I actually like it this way. Here is is.

Pos.#1 = B/N Series
Pos.#2 = Bridge Only
Pos,#3 = B/N Parallel
Pos.#4 = Neck Only

As you can see this moves the B/N Series from the topmost position nearest the neck to the rearmost position nearest the volume knob and then in typical 3-way order from there north. The pickups were Wilde Keystones which do have the spare ground wire from both bridge and neck so that you don't need to install them. I'm not certain whether or not the pickups in your Tele are equipt the same way. If not you'll need to add that ground to the neck pickup.

I don't know of anyone else who has tried this so if you do I'd certainly like to know how it works for you. It would be nice to find out whether or not my guitar is possessed. LOL

Good Luck with this and I'll check back with you to see how you're doing with it. :grin:
__________________
CS 51 Nocaster, Nashcaster (Nocaster modified Nashville Deluxe), MIM Standard, Squier CVC w/Keystones, Squier CV Jazz Bass, and a semi-hollow body w/Humbuckers I seldom play made by those other guys. What can I say, I like Fenders.

Soulman, i've only been here a very short while but this is the 2nd time you've been a great help to me. Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I might wait and order a new switch (my poor soldering skills have left the old switch a bit of a mess). or if i decide i don't want to undertake this, i'll just take it to a local repairman. either way i'll keep you posted as to what happens. thanks again!

Soulman, i've only been here a very short while but this is the 2nd time you've been a great help to me. Thanks for taking the time to help me out. I might wait and order a new switch (my poor soldering skills have left the old switch a bit of a mess). or if i decide i don't want to undertake this, i'll just take it to a local repairman. either way i'll keep you posted as to what happens. thanks again!

Payin' it forward brother. A dozen or more guys tried to help me out with my dilemma including my friend and fellow member sjtalon who must have traded at least 25 or 30 emails with me about. Talk about getting an education in soldering and micro electronics. He's a whiz at that stuff.

You can thank him too. He saw your thread and emailed me about it while he was away for a little vacation. My turn to pitch in to help. :grin:

It's not all that hard to mess up that switch with either solder or too much heat. I managed to do that on my first effort too and that may be all it is but what you're describing is so similar to the results I got even before I messed up the switch taking it out and putting it back in again a couple of times that I'm beginning to wonder if there's a batch of bad switches out there especially with a few of these reports coming in from different locale's all within a few months of one another.

By all means keep me posted and if you do use the wiring scheme I posted I'll be curious to find out how it works for you.

Did you mod your neck pup so it had a separate ground wire for the cover? You can't just put the black wire on the switch.

Just to clarify, position 1 is the switch all the way back by the vol. pot, so you should get bridge only there.

mod the neck, check the bottom of this page.


http://www.guitar-mod.com/rg_4wayinfo.html

switch pole test


with NO wires attached, the x and o's should be the ONLY terminals with continuity, per lever position.

and x and o should never have continuity with one another, just each respective side of the disk, so re the 1st one on top there and in switch position 1, X and X & O and O should have continuity. Test all the rest and there should be NO other connection to any of them, or those to each other.

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/519/medium/3_4-way_switch_diagram.jpg

sjtalon: You've alerted me to two mistakes, i assumed the positions were just the opposite, with position 1 being the switch set farthest away from the volume knob. nevertheless, that doesn't solve my problem.

2nd: i did do the pickup cover ground mod, however i did it wrong. i attached it to the neck's ground lead instead of to the metal cover. i corrected this, but it still didn't fix my problem, just kinda changed it a bit. i have just removed the switch from the wires, and am about to try it again with the schematic souldman969 gave me. thanks for your help!

UPDATE: i have followed the schematic that souldman969 linked to, and no luck. different problems this time, but same basic thing. so come monday i will bring my guitar to a luthier in town. i think that's the best thing to do. soulman, sjtalon, thanks so much for your input, i hope someday i can return the favour.

Interesting topic as I am going to install a switch tomorrow. If you go here: http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/Acme-Guitar-Works-Wiring-Diagrams-W8C345.aspx

There are two different 4 way wiring diagrams where one goes 1) bridge, B&N parallel, B&N series, neck 2) bridge, B&N parallel, neck, B&N series. Series is the fat sound.

I wish I was better at electronics, but maybe more than two choices would be a bad thing ;) I use the switch a lot on my Strats, but not so much on my Tele where I tend to use the tone knob more. Since I seldom use the neck it may make sense to have 1 be bridge and 4 be series for fastest switching.

UPDATE: i have followed the schematic that souldman969 linked to, and no luck. different problems this time, but same basic thing. so come monday i will bring my guitar to a luthier in town. i think that's the best thing to do. soulman, sjtalon, thanks so much for your input, i hope someday i can return the favour.

Well that settles it for me. Beelzebub here is most definitely possessed. LOL

Doof I'm truly sorry that didn't work for you and I wish I could be of more help. You're going about it the same way I did eventually. When the mystery becomes to great too unravel there's always somebody out there who can do it. The problem may even be in the switch.

I'm sure your guy will get it sorted out for you.

The problem may even be in the switch.

Interesting topic as I am going to install a switch tomorrow. If you go here: http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/Acme-Guitar-Works-Wiring-Diagrams-W8C345.aspx

There are two different 4 way wiring diagrams where one goes 1) bridge, B&N parallel, B&N series, neck 2) bridge, B&N parallel, neck, B&N series. Series is the fat sound.

I wish I was better at electronics, but maybe more than two choices would be a bad thing ;) I use the switch a lot on my Strats, but not so much on my Tele where I tend to use the tone knob more. Since I seldom use the neck it may make sense to have 1 be bridge and 4 be series for fastest switching.

Unfortunately he was working from that same wiring scheme and so was I. His problems with trying to wire as in option #2 were roughly the same as mine. Even with a brand new switch it would not respond to that wiring scheme so mine has one that I'm not certain anyone has used before.

It works just fine in mine yet when Doof tried it, no joy. I don't know but the number of posters who have reported similar problems is strange as far as I'm concerned. Let is know how yours works out neighbor.

I am out of town so haven't had much time to read. This is the common Fender wiring below.

Wire it like this, and leave the switch mount screws loose. I forgot to mention that sometimes the slot in the control plate isn't long enough to let the lever go all the way. Try it like that. File it out a little if you have to.

It doesn't show the dedicated cover ground wire but you did that. The black neck wire in the diagram would be the same as the one you have ( I don't know your colors)
that use to go to the back of a pot ( coil ground)

http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/tele_4ws.jpg

I like this scheme as the switch (positions) work just like a modern Tele 3 way, then all the way forward is TURBOCHAGER !

What brand 4 way switch do you guys have? I remember in the 80s fixing and adding pickups to a friends Japan Tele and what a mess! I knew the Strat schematic by heart, but not the Tele, so when I went to put in the USA switch using the schematic I made from the way it looked when I opened up the cavity nothing worked. Panic! I finally found the proper schematic and all was well.

I bought the modded switch Callaham sells so it would be certain to fit in the pocket of my guitar. It came with a little schematic which looks like the ACME schematic that goes B, parallel, series, N.

I checked Klein, Duncan and the second ACME all have the wire that crosses over one lug down giving B, parallel, N, Series.

TO the OP. I think it is time to stop and try a different switch.

I did see an interesting tone styler on the ACME site that should make the wiring a bit easier and it has a push/push button that takes the tone pot totally out of the circuit, but you need to drill a hole through your control plate between the knobs.

Pretty much all the 4W switches out there are Oak Grigsby (Fender) so other than changing the positions of things, they all wire the same.

UPDATE: i have followed the schematic that souldman969 linked to, and no luck. different problems this time, but same basic thing. so come monday i will bring my guitar to a luthier in town. i think that's the best thing to do. soulman, sjtalon, thanks so much for your input, i hope someday i can return the favour.

Doof, just wondered if your luthier has had a go at your 4-way yet and if so what he found. It's still a mystery why some of these switches wired according to that diagram work just fine and others don't.

I didn't mention previously that my MIM Standard is wired exactly as per that diagram and works four square with the Series in Pos.#4 and then Neck, Parallel, and Bridge in Pos'.#3, #2, and #1.

When I was wiring the CVC I cross checked my wiring with that one but despite the fact that they were indentical it was no joy on the CVC. The only wiring scheme that worked was the one my luthier did which I diagrammed and posted yet even that one didn't work on yours.

Like my thread indicated, "this is very strange". :confused:

hello again. My work schedule has kept me busy, but i was finally able to drop my guitar off this morning. He just called a few minutes ago telling me he couldn't get it working quite right... that positions 1 & 2 were both acting as bridge and neck in parallel. So for the moment i have no bridge-only option.

He suspects it might be the switch, so he's gonna order another one and try it again when the new switch comes in. After all this i kind of doubt that's going to help much. If it doesn't, i suppose i'll just go back to the 3-position switch. This sure is frustrating!

I installed my 4 way last night using the Callaham switch and tip following the schematic from the Klein pickups site.

It took forever! I haven't worked on a Tele in 28 years and I was taking notes and measurements for easy reassembly as well as the Jazzcaster project I am working on.

I'm am proud to say that it worked perfectly the first time!! I also swapped out the bridge plate, put on two of the old brass saddles and added a cold rolled steel saddle under the E/A.

I didn't get a lot of time to play it, but I really liked the Steel saddle! I am thinking of getting a full set for my Jazzcaster project.

there is an adventure over every hill -- Pooh

so i got my guitar back from the luthier. As i said earlier, he thought there was a problem with the switch. curiosity got the better of me and i opened up the control plate again, and i think i figured out what the problem was:

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/doofbanman/contact.jpg

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/doofbanman/nocontact.jpg

As you can see the contact point doesn't quite move far enough when you put the switch into position 1, so it keeps contact with both pickups. if i physically slide it over, then i get my bridge pickup all alone. this made me happy because at least i'm not going crazy. But i still wonder why everything checked out fine with the continuity tester...? oh well. he's ordering me in a new switch next week and we'll get it solved.

One thing i'm not too pleased with though is he removed the grease bucket circuit without asking me :( also, after doing a professional set-up, there was a lot more buzz than i had ever noticed before. i'm starting to lose faith in this guy.

Thanks again for following me on this little adventure and offering advice along the way!

Well it would appear that maybe we have a problem with some of those Oak-Grigsby switches if theskj has no problem with his from Callaham. Not surprising given the few who have reported problems.

Doof, did the switch make contact when you removed it from the cavity? In some cases the slot in the control plate isn't wide enough to accommodate the the entire throw of the switch? Just curious if it would work out of the cavity and off the control plate.

FWIW mine would not work either way and when I did a continuity check everything came out fine too. Let us know how things work out with the new switch and if it works properly once it's wired as per the typical wiring scheme.

As you can see the contact point doesn't quite move far enough when you put the switch into position 1, so it keeps contact with both pickups. along the

check my 3rd post.


But i still wonder why everything checked out fine with the continuity tester...?


Ya you had readings, but they weren't right.


One thing i'm not too pleased with though is he removed the grease bucket circuit without asking me

If it's not to far, I'd go back and tell him he needs to promptly put it back.

And put it back in for no charge!

Doof, did the switch make contact when you removed it from the cavity? In some cases the slot in the control plate isn't wide enough to accommodate the the entire throw of the switch? Just curious if it would work out of the cavity and off the control plate.


yes, it did make contact even when it was out of the cavity. for whatever reason, it just doesn't slide ALL the way over, that little part just lags behind, even though there's ample room for the switch. At least i'll know what to look for with the next switch before we get to work.

Wire it like this, and leave the switch mount screws loose. I forgot to mention that sometimes the slot in the control plate isn't long enough to let the lever go all the way. Try it like that. File it out a little if you have to.

Doof, did the switch make contact when you removed it from the cavity? In some cases the slot in the control plate isn't wide enough to accommodate the the entire throw of the switch? Just curious if it would work out of the cavity and off the control plate.


When i initially wired it up myself and tested it, the switch was not mounted in the control plate, so it would have had full range of motion. however, since i got it back from the luthier, i have not tried taking it off the control plate yet, i'll probably try that out tonight. so far i just removed it from the cavity.
i'll keep you guys posted.

thanks!

If you look at your 1st picture, the two lugs are still engaged with the wiper obviously.

Those lugs (terminals) twist pretty easy, so pressure on them while doing the wiring/soldering or even when you jam the control plate into the cavity, they can twist, or get bent in the disk.

So sometimes you can twist them a tad to get them back to the way they should be. It doesn't take much for those thin metal lugs to bend/twist on those tabs holding it in the disk.

i ended up just filing down the switch a little so now i can fully swing into position 1. the whole thing works flawlessly now. Thanks so much for all your advice!

Sometimes the switch tip stops the lever from going all the way over. ...?

not the tip, but the thin side of the switch. As i've learned from others, the slot itself is sometimes not long enough to allow the switch to extend as far as it is supposed to, so i filed the side of the switch down just a little giving it just a slight bit extra distance which allows it to engage only the bridge pickup rather than both pickups.

Two years ago I posted my solution for sorting out a control plate before installing it in a guitar and I did not get one response. I thought it was a pretty good solution. It is a little late for this build, but here is my take on testing a a control plate wiring. Please Note: The small picture in the post is a "Link" to a slideshow that shows how this tester works.


Here is my latest version of the Telecaster control tester box. I just put it in a cigar box for convenience. Click on the image below to view a short slide show in Photobucket.

This box will allow you to do the wiring for multiple types of switches and pickups and is just a way to test your wiring before installing in the guitar and connecting the pickup wires.

http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/Lost_N_Austin/Cigar%20Box%20Tester/th_IMG_1755.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/Lost_N_Austin/Cigar%20Box%20Tester/?action=view&current=496df78a.pbw)

Here is a closer look at the insides in a still shot.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/Lost_N_Austin/Cigar%20Box%20Tester/IMG_1755.jpg?t=1290046202


Lost_N_Austin

Lost

wow that is a really neat system! i wish i had that kinda talent to plan and build one of those! i can definitely see how that would come in handy.

Two years ago I posted my solution for sorting out a control plate before installing it in a guitar and I did not get one response. I thought it was a pretty good solution. It is a little late for this build, but here is my take on testing a a control plate wiring. Please Note: The small picture in the post is a "Link" to a slideshow that shows how this tester works.




Lost

Well done sir. Thanks for taking time to share that. Hopefully others will spot this. If I was doing a lot of wiring I would have this built tomorrow.

Thanks Lost! :mrgreen: