Application of modes?

I finally found some videos (part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80) and part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uhN5h1o7ww), for those who may be interested) that I think have helped me understand modes a bit better (I require the 'hold my hand while you draw it in crayon' approach to theory, so finding something that presents a things in a way I can comprehend takes some time). And I have a few questions about the application.

First, just to make sure I actually get it, please correct me if any of this is wrong (and please excuse any poor use of the terminology). Using a mode is basically playing a major scale with a root other than the usual note (ie, a D major with a D root). So to play a Dorian mode in E you're just playing a D major scale, while rooting with the E. Right?

So, if this is right, how do you apply that in a song? Like, if the song is in E (minor?), do you just wail away with your D maj scale over it? Or would/could you use it in the key of D, while still sounding like you're playing in E? Or would you need a chord progression of only chords that fit in both scales (G maj, D maj, Emin, etc)?

OK, sorry if I butchered anything to do with this. Hopefully I presented it coherently enough to make sense. If need be, just tell me to go back to remedial modal studies and I'll come try again next week.

Using a mode over a whole song can be like smothering your Pizza in cheese or chilli. Everythings going to taste the same.
Its better to use them to find interesting sounds on individual chords..As far as E dorian goes .... Audition the chord tones first against the Em chord...the root, The 3rd , 7th, the 9th and then the all important 6 th(C#). Does any of it work for you and the song? If you dont like the 6th or dont think it works then you dont want dorian. The rest of the sounds are chord tones and basic extensions. Essential.

There are many explanations of the modes I have seen. A Dorian is playing the G major scale from A to A or A Dorian is a minor scale with a raised 6th etc ie a characteristic note.

Modes starting making sense to me when I viewed first the chords derived from the major scale. So in G

G M7 , A m7 , B ,7, C M7, D 7, E m7, F#m7-5

In simple terms this tells me that the notes from the G major scale may work over these chords.

In another post somewhere I discussed how there are three pentatonic minor scales containing five of the seven notes of the G major scale (A minor, B minor and E minor, which is of course G major pent). This is why you can use pentatonic substitutions to get some modal sounds as well. An example B minor pentatonic over a Cmaj7. This hits the raised fourth which creates a Lydian sound.

It is worthwhile to put on some of the modal backing tracks on youtube and play the notes of the scales and then improvise using the various methods and hear how the modes sound.

I am sure others can provide a more theoretically correct explanation.

1 - Using a mode is basically playing a major scale with a root other than the usual note (ie, a D major with a D root). So to play a Dorian mode in E you're just playing a D major scale, while rooting with the E. Right?

2 - So, if this is right, how do you apply that in a song? Like, if the song is in E (minor?), do you just wail away with your D maj scale over it? Or would/could you use it in the key of D, while still sounding like you're playing in E? Or would you need a chord progression of only chords that fit in both scales (G maj, D maj, Emin, etc)?



I added numbers to the quoted part to help separate the points.

1 - Yes, technically the notes of a D major scale played E to E is the E dorian mode.

2 - No. You have to understand that if the song/chord progression is all Em (Em7 in the case of 'dorian') you still have to think in Em - not D anything. Home is Em.

*I 'think' you may be ahead yourself. You really shouldn't worry about modes until you really understand plain old diatonic harmony. Can you name all the notes in any major or minor triad and do you know how to make all those chords 7th chords i.e., maj7 min7 dom7?

1 - Yes, technically the notes of a D major scale played E to E is the E dorian mode.I like B.G.'s "rooting on the E" definition better. I've seen the "E to E" definition in textbooks for years, and while it's easy to show in a diagram, it doesn't really make sense if you take it literally.

Ken, I know you know your stuff, but saying "E to E" can be a little misleading. E.g., One can solo over Em7 using notes diatonic to the key of D major, and you don't have to start or end on E... I.e., So long as one accentuates the Dorian notes, it will sound Dorian.

While the root is often the first or last note of a phrase, it doesn't have to be, and often is not.

I also agree about learning diatonic harmony and getting your chord spelling down cold.

Of course but I feel it's paramount to 'understand' that you are absolutely not in the key of D - you're in the key of a type of E ... in this case Em7. You gotta know where you're RESOLVING to. It doesn't necessarily have to be the root (or even the fifth) but hearing and understanding the overall harmonic center is what determines that you either sound like a someone who knows what they're doing or someone who sounds like they're wanking randomly.

*This is why/where modal 'theory' gets so misunderstood, misused and unnecessarily overly complicated.

It seems kind of redundant to be so obsessive about modes. If you memorize the fretboard and are able to look at a set of changes and automatically see arpeggios and extensions why fret over modes (no pun intended)? I know they add "different flavors" (at least that's the argument I hear most often) but I would say it's the specific extensions to specific chords that add the colors, not the mode.

I like B.G.'s "rooting on the E" definition better. I've seen the "E to E" definition in textbooks for years, and while it's easy to show in a diagram, it doesn't really make sense if you take it literally.

Ken, I know you know your stuff, but saying "E to E" can be a little misleading. E.g., One can solo over Em7 using notes diatonic to the key of D major, and you don't have to start or end on E... I.e., So long as one accentuates the Dorian notes, it will sound Dorian.

While the root is often the first or last note of a phrase, it doesn't have to be, and often is not.

I also agree about learning diatonic harmony and getting your chord spelling down cold.

Well he said "technically." That usually means a caveat is on the way.

Folks, please listen to the advice of really getting down major scale harmony first. And I'll ask that you listen to me too. I'm not going to sugar coat this.

You will NEVER understand how to use a mode if you simply view them as playing a major scale but starting and finishing on a different note. NEVER.

The way to hear modes is against a pedal of the Tonic...so play a D dorian over a D pedal. Then play D Lydian...mixolydian...here how the notes differ in relationship to that pedal.

If you want to visualize things by visualizing your major scale shapes, go ahead. Again, understand, your playing will never sound modal until you understand the characteristic pitches of the mode and accent them. Playing a bunch of C major licks over a D Dorian tune isn't going to cut it.

I really feel until you know the fretboard and know major scale harmony and how to build chords, you have absolutely no reason to dip into the modes. NO REASON. A mode is a sound. When you can look at the notes of a Lydian mode and a Maj7#11 chord on paper and understand the relationship between them, then the lightbulb goes on concerning modes.

Folks seem to think the modes are some kinda magic...and then they want the easy solution..."give me a chord progression so I can play Lydian over the whole thing..." This isn't a real world application...and then there's the overthinkers, who try to think modal on everything...

Sorry for the rant...there's just sooo much misinformation and bad advice out there concerning the modes. It's the single most often "taught like crap" item out there...

You will NEVER understand how to use a mode if you simply view them as playing a major scale but starting and finishing on a different note. NEVER.

The way to hear modes is against a pedal of the Tonic...so play a D dorian over a D pedal. Then play D Lydian...mixolydian...here how the notes differ in relationship to that pedal.
A mode is a sound. When you can look at the notes of a Lydian mode and a Maj7#11 chord on paper and understand the relationship between them, then the lightbulb goes on concerning modes.


I'd like to add -although JT has implied it already, that there is a huge difference between hearing the mode against a tonic - and hearing it against the root note of the chord. You really cant do the latter until you have the sound of the chord and the different functions or contexts of it internalised. Not only that -but the duration of a chord can be fleeting.So if you cant hear the chord itself - then youre probably not ready for the application of modes.

Personally I find the thing of meandering mode shredding over an Em or somesuch, almost the most boring sound imagineable - and there are a ton of terrible lessons online and in magazines on doing exactly that...
If you are serious about a study in modes - get a tamboura or a shruti box and start singing them against a drone. Modes do generate a harmony in their own specific way (check out Boneyguys link to the doco on Sacred Music - some beautiful examples of Ionian, lydian and dorian compositions there). Modes can be beautiful things - treat them with respect.

Of course but I feel it's paramount to 'understand' that you are absolutely not in the key of D - you're in the key of a type of E ... in this case Em7. You gotta know where you're RESOLVING to. It doesn't necessarily have to be the root (or even the fifth) but hearing and understanding the overall harmonic center is what determines that you either sound like a someone who knows what they're doing or someone who sounds like they're wanking randomly.

*This is why/where modal 'theory' gets so misunderstood, misused and unnecessarily overly complicated.I was just taking exception to the "E to E" definition, i.e., using starting and ending notes to define the modes. I see this in basic theory texts all the time, and it's just not true.

I think I'm saying the same thing as you, I was just trying to clarify. To hear the mode, you need to HEAR the TONAL CENTER... The tonal center is the sound that all the other notes sounds like they are revolving around.

If you can't HEAR it, I don't think it's possible to understand it. That's why those textbooks with that visual approach kinda' bug me...

Didn't mean to call you out specifically Ken, I know that you know what modes are, and I think you know what I'm saying too. The "E to E" definition is so easy to show on paper, it has become ubiquitous, but it's essentially wrong...

It seems kind of redundant to be so obsessive about modes. If you memorize the fretboard and are able to look at a set of changes and automatically see arpeggios and extensions why fret over modes (no pun intended)? I know they add "different flavors" (at least that's the argument I hear most often) but I would say it's the specific extensions to specific chords that add the colors, not the mode.There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think the chord tones and extensions approach is a good approach, but you can get similar results by approaching the same changes with modes. It's not an either/or proposition. If you want to understand cat anatomy, skin 'em both ways! :wink:

Well he said "technically." That usually means a caveat is on the way.I know what you mean, but I stick by what I said. I believe the traditional visual approach of showing a mode as starting and ending on the presumed tonal center is flawed.

You need to hear the tonal center to understand what a mode is doing. If you can't HEAR, you can't UNDERSTAND...

You will NEVER understand how to use a mode if you simply view them as playing a major scale but starting and finishing on a different note. NEVER.+1. That's exactly what I was saying.

The way to hear modes is against a pedal of the Tonic...so play a D dorian over a D pedal. Then play D Lydian...mixolydian...here how the notes differ in relationship to that pedal.Exactly. The key word is HEAR...

I really feel until you know the fretboard and know major scale harmony and how to build chords, you have absolutely no reason to dip into the modes. NO REASON. I'm okay with having kids play modes early if they seem to have an aptitude for them. Had a 13 year old student who latched onto the 7 modal patterns before she could play campfire chords... Now she's 15 and sounds like Jennifer Batten... :oops:

If the goal was to make her sound like Kenny Burrell, I'm an abject failure. If the goal was to let her have fun developing her own musical aptitudes, I think I did okay... :wink:
A mode is a sound.
Hellyeah! lol :oops: :lol:

Yeah, like I said E to E is 'technically' one way to express what a mode is. Sort of like saying a hamburger is technically a sandwich.

Jayfreddy, I didn't at all think you were calling me out. I almost wish there was a moratorium on modal talk on the internet.

I always thought the E to E thing was because most scales a shown from the root. When I started messing with modes instead of pedal tones, I looped chords and then played the modes. So loop a M7 chord and play Lydian, loop a m7 and play dorian etc.

Sorry, I've tried to respond a few times over the past 36 hours but my data network reception has been conspiring against me.

Anyway, there's too many angry capitalized and boldfaced words in here. I humbly apologize for expressing it in the way that makes sense to me instead of the proper, textbook-acceptable method.

Basically I managed to go through each mode while droning the low E until I could make it sound like it fit. And some of it actually sounded pretty cool, which is nice. That's what I try to do with a guitar- make cool noises. And it's harder to make it sound right over a chord than over a note, so I asked.

So what I'm taking from this to use it sparingly, that it won't necessarily work over a whole chord progression, but more on a case-by-case basis from one chord to another… and to play it over the chords in question and see if it sounds right. The looper on my M9 will be glad to get some use.

Oh, and to look up modal backing tracks. I didn't know anything of the sort existed, so I look forward to giving that a go this week.

And I don't want to ignore those who suggested the more 'proper' theory approaches. I am slowly building my knowledge on the subject, though certainly not with the same methods most of you probably would recommend. I take a backwards approach of stumbling upon it and then going back and finding out why it works. I retain it better that way (though I promise I really do practice my scales and stuff now). But I'm not ignoring the basics, don't worry.

Sorry for the bold lettering - and any pompousness that may be inferred.Just makes the point stand out from the rest of the ramble. Good luck on the mode journey.

So what I'm taking from this to use it sparingly, that it won't necessarily work over a whole chord progression, but more on a case-by-case basis from one chord to another… and to play it over the chords in question and see if it sounds right. The looper on my M9 will be glad to get some use.



I can think of three ways of choosing notes to play over one chord to the next.

Method 1: Analyze the chords and determine what key they are in. Since a major chord can reside in three different keys, a minor chord in three different keys, and a 7th chord in one key, you might want to find one key that works for all of the chords in a sequence.

For example:
Em Dm F G are all found in the key of C.

Em D C G are all found in G major.

D G Bm A are all found in D major.

Method 2: For each chord, find all of the modes that can be played over that one specific chord.

For example:
Em = E dorian, E phrygian, and E aeolian.
A = A ionian, A lydian, and A mixolydian.

Method 3: Write down all of the notes in the chords of a given sequence, then use these in a solo over those chords.

For example, given the progression: Em Dm C G = E G B, D F A, C E G, G B D. Put into alphabetical order and disregarding duplicates: E F G A B C D, or F G A B C D E, or G A B C D E, or A B C D E F G, or B C D E F G A, or C D E F G A B, or D E F G A B C.

Since these all use the same notes with different starting points, my advice is to study enough theory to help you determine which single term most accurately reflects that progression. It might be E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeolian, B locrian, C ionian, or D dorian. My vote would be to think of the notes as a C major scale.

I think that when are you changing modes on a chord to chord basis, you risk losing continuity. On the other hand, if you stay on one scale or mode over the entire progression, your note choices will sound boring and canned. At that point, you would want to learn how to use chord tones or guide tones to shape your solos.

Yeah, sorry man.
The bold is not at all about 'angry'. As slowpinky said it's about emphasizing the salient points that generally (almost always) get either completely missed, misused or totally misconstrued when it come to modal theory.

Carry on. You're going about it in a constructive way. All 'theory' is after the fact anyway. The guys that can talk about it constructively are the ones who went through it, learned it, apply it ... and can now discuss/teach it. There is a standard language to it and since we all live all over the globe it's nice to have a well defined set of terms to use.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think the chord tones and extensions approach is a good approach, but you can get similar results by approaching the same changes with modes. It's not an either/or proposition. If you want to understand cat anatomy, skin 'em both ways! :wink:

JayFreddy: I am never letting you watch my cat! :lol:

I think the chord tones and extensions approach is a good approach, but you can get similar results by approaching the same changes with modes. It's not an either/or proposition. If you want to understand cat anatomy, skin 'em both ways!

Sure - but I think the OP is looking at hearing this stuff and playing it. Modes are used extensively and probably successfully as a way of intellectualising the different qualities of chords - especially the melodic minor modes; but as an aural phenomena they are a different beast altogether - i.e. not a cat!

I'm all for a ban on mentioning modes.

I'm all for a ban on mentioning modes.

I always get a kick out of people trying to explain modes. The first sentence
I understand, after that they lose me.

I'm all for a ban on mentioning modes.


I thought this was about cats....