Thoughts about "that tone", modern guitars, vintage amps.

Dear all,

As some of you might remember, I made my appearance here on these pages almost exactly two years ago with a glorious NGD related to Avery (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/213086-ngd-even-fgd-acronyms-galore.html). Avery was my dream guitar, I had an acoustic, I wanted a cheap electric, I was oriented towards a Squier CVC or similar, then I changed my mind and looked for a mexican Fender, then I tried an American Standard and... After all this, I decided "if I'm doing this, I don't wanna regret anything" and pulled a trigger on an American Vintage '52 Reissue.

The dream proved to be quite worthy and the AVRI'52 (namely, Avery) is still my number one guitar, even after I bought a very beautiful '89 PRS Custom. I just love the Telecaster, and the industrial reissue is still my idea of a Telecaster (apart from true vintage pieces, which are totally out of my financial reach), even after some Custom Shop Teles have quickly passed through my fingers.

In the last fifteen months or so, I had it sing through a very nice Fender Bassman '59 LTD. Now, this is quite an amp; I just had to realize that the currently fitted tubes are nothing like the original design, and therefore swap all of them for good NOS ones, especially the right types; let's say GZ34 rectifier, 12AY7 V1, 5881 power tubes (in my case, 5932, similar stuff, very good).

Since that upgrade, I can say that my Bassman nails most of its "intended-to-be" tone, I'm very happy. It just happens that, sometimes, I feel its limits as a modern amp versus "the vintage tone" everyone - myself included - raves about, I feel it's a little cold and piercing, I can't really make my country licks sing as if I were sitting in the fifties... Or whatever. It just misses something of it.

Well, as you might expect, I was beginning to wonder if my growing experience and expectations were maybe showing the American Vintage limits, I was starting to ask myself: Maybe I need a serious Custom Shop guitar, or a real vintage Tele to enjoy what I'm looking for?

Today I was invited at my friend's garage to test some gear. He wanted to try my Bassman with his Custom Shop Tele and some of his other stuff. I brought along my Avery, just in case the test didn't do justice to my Bassman;in that case, I would have plugged my guitar in, set it like I'm used to, and let him hear the right outcome.

Well well. Even his Custom Shop guitar, good as it is, sounded "good but a little cold", so to speak, through my Bassman. Very punchy, a lot of rock, but not so vintage-Tele. I have to admit that I don't know which kind of replica his Custom Shop is, surely more modern than a '52 style, but still a vintage reissue of some sort.

So I thought... It's time to switch approach, and I asked him to let me try MY guitar... In his '66 Fender Band Master head+cab.

Holy cow, folks... That vintage Band Master, plus my American Vintage, sounded better (closer to my idea of a Tele) than the same amp with his Custom Shop model. I suddenly realized that my guitar wasn't the problem at all, and Fender is really making an amazing reissue with these AV'52RI. I just couldn't stop playing. The "cold" part in my tone is simply due to the reissue Bassman LTD, which is surely good, and with its tubes set right is even better, but it just is... Another kind of amp.

I really don't have a "problem". The Bassman tone is very good on its own, it's punchy and lively and "telecastery" enough, just not perfect to nail the very vintage tone I was after. And I was blaming the guitar.

This is just a post to glorify the work Fender is doing with the American Vintage '52 Reissue Telecaster, in case any of you, having one and having any kind of modern (reissue or not) amp, was wondering which one had to be replaced to nail a vintage country Telecaster tone.

Well, for what it's worth, my Avery is a perfect vintage Tele in tone. I was really, really amazed. We - vintage-tone wanderers - have to focus more on vintage amps. Or maybe, break-in our stuff more.

Two cents,

Giacomo

The Tone Quest never ends. Enjoyed your story though!

So, did you buy his amp?

It's funny that you used the word "cold". It sounds as though your amp might be biased a little "cold". That can make all the difference. Bias it a bit hotter, and your NOS tubes can probably handle it, but most modern amps are set for modern tubes, and run a lower plate voltage so that the tubes don't burn out.

So, did you buy his amp?

Nope, his amp is currently not for sale. If he liked my Bassman enough, we could have set some sort of a deal (partial trade) I guess, but it's clear that he likes his Bandmaster better. I wouldn't sell it, if I were him.

It's funny that you used the word "cold". It sounds as though your amp might be biased a little "cold". That can make all the difference. Bias it a bit hotter, and your NOS tubes can probably handle it, but most modern amps are set for modern tubes, and run a lower plate voltage so that the tubes don't burn out.

This sounds interesting. For what I remember of when I put 5932's in, I set the bias to pull out the data sheet power rating, and maybe the current was a bit low because the plate voltage was so already high and out of spec. I have a trimmer for the bias current in this Bassman LTD, but how would I adjust the voltage to raise the current without blowing the power rating out?

Thanks,

Giacomo

To get you in the general ballpark, a small part of the equation is your guitar and perhaps the smallest factor when it comes to sound. The two bigger factors are the amp and how you play with them.

If I had a choice between a new American Vintage '52 through a modern Fender amp or a modern sounding guitar like the American Standard but through a really old (but working) Fender amp, I would take the latter combination for that vintage sound. A combination of how that amp was made back then (1950s or 1960s) and the age of the amp makes a sound which cannot be replicated perfectly by a new amp.

Maybe his custom shop had overwound pups instead of the vintage wind in your '52, which generally will sound sweeter.

Above all else, taste in sound/tone is purley subjective to each player. Lots of folks swear by certain brand pickups and amp models for what they consider the ultimate tone..others just don't hear it that way. Find the right combo for your ears..but don't expect others to fully agree with your own God given set of ears :lol: Hope you can find the right rig for you and enjoy it :wink:

I have a '64 Bandmaster and yes....It does sound darn good. Warm fort sure! Most definitely not cold.

i'm a BIG believer in the old amps...it took me a long time to pony up for real blackface stuff too, but there is definitely a difference to be appreciated there too.

might be worth checking out a silverface at least. you've sure got a winner in the guitar dept!!!

Okay, just tossing this out as someone who owns both a vintage Blackface and a vintage Tweed, but is there really anything all that special about old amps? I mean, they're nice and sound great when they're all dialed in and working right, but there are plenty of modern amps that sound just as good.

Justin

Thanks for sharing this. It's a great observation of how the various elements in electric guitar playing can vary your sound. Mix them up and sometimes you hit gold (to YOUR ears).

The amp plays such a HUGE role in shaping the guitar's sound. Moving from amp to amp will provide more sound changes (and fun!) than swapping pickups out. Unless, you were making radical output type PU changes, of course!

Thanks for sharing this. It's a great observation of how the various elements in electric guitar playing can vary your sound. Mix them up and sometimes you hit gold (to YOUR ears).

The amp plays such a HUGE role in shaping the guitar's sound. Moving from amp to amp will provide more sound changes (and fun!) than swapping pickups out. Unless, you were making radical output type PU changes, of course!

That is very true. I used to think the guitar changes or pickup changes were what was where it was at, but top of the line amps (and effects) can do much more. The only problem is that becoming an amp junkie is as expensive as being attached to only pre-CBS Fenders.

Thank you for all your thoughts.

The purpose of my story was obviously just to report a little experience of mine, something very useful which mostly proved the AVRI'52, apart from comparisons and personal tastes, a really good guitar for its "reissue" purpose. It "reissues" and perfectly nails a sound which many of us still seek, and I was just pointing out that I needed a real vintage amp to understand how close she could really came. And I've owned her for two good years.

So... Positive experience, which I thought I'd share with you.

I'm not interested in absolute-quality-comparisons with my friend's Custom Shop guitar, which is a gorgeous instrument with a different (and perfectly good) tone, and other nice features (wonderful fat neck). The interesting part of my experience was that the AVRI'52, correctly paired with a proper amp, could eliver her own goods. Amazingly so.

Now, I have two options: work further on my Bassman LTD and get close to that sound, which may or may not be easy, or see if I can afford the "real deal". I'm waiting for an answer from a well known dealer, who has tons of good vintage stuff here in Italy. He has both a '63 Bassman head+cab (blonde/white) and a '64 Bandmaster. I might ask for quotes for both amps, and then I'd really have a hard time deciding between the two, I think...

:)

Giacomo

Thank you for all your thoughts.

The purpose of my story was obviously just to report a little experience of mine, something very useful which mostly proved the AVRI'52, apart from comparisons and personal tastes, a really good guitar for its "reissue" purpose. It "reissues" and perfectly nails a sound which many of us still seek, and I was just pointing out that I needed a real vintage amp to understand how close she could really came. And I've owned her for two good years.

So... Positive experience, which I thought I'd share with you.

I'm not interested in absolute-quality-comparisons with my friend's Custom Shop guitar, which is a gorgeous instrument with a different (and perfectly good) tone, and other nice features (wonderful fat neck). The interesting part of my experience was that the AVRI'52, correctly paired with a proper amp, could eliver her own goods. Amazingly so.

Now, I have two options: work further on my Bassman LTD and get close to that sound, which may or may not be easy, or see if I can afford the "real deal". I'm waiting for an answer from a well known dealer, who has tons of good vintage stuff here in Italy. He has both a '63 Bassman head+cab (blonde/white) and a '64 Bandmaster. I might ask for quotes for both amps, and then I'd really have a hard time deciding between the two, I think...

:)

Giacomo

Let's try to break it into percentages (guess) beyond the player's fingers which is most of it right there anyway. If the guitar was (generously) 25% percent of the vintage type sound, the amp would probably make up 75% percent if you have ever been lucky enough to use both at the same time.

As an experiment, try and find a small, but old Fender Champ which shouldn't cost too much and play your tele through that. You will be amazed. While digital technology has leveled the playing field, it's still hard to replicate an old tube amp, Fender or otherwise. Part of it being older is that you are also playing, hopefully, through older speakers and that helps. The more original the old amp is, usually the better.

The reissue amps, while nicer for vintage tone than the modern hot amps with a vintage setting, are kind of lifeless in a way and I know what you are saying. Even when they get a warmth to them, they still don't have the same type of vibe as the old ones. I can see getting by making a guitar, a much simpler process, and have a reissue get the basic tone of an old blackguard, but amps are far more complex.

It's too bad that the old Fender amps, the bigger ones at least, cost so much and that so much of the sound is dependent on them. There's no cheap way out this if you want that exact vintage tone. I would love for it to be where all you need to do is get a reissue Fender and then have the sound wrapped up with a new amp. The sound you are likely after will come from an old, vintage, but pricey Fender amp like the existing Bassman or Bandmaster.

This thing (below) will get a high bid when it's all over but hopefully a real player who can appreciate it gets it instead of a collector who only looks to resell it for more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Fender-Band-Master-Head-and-Matching-2-X-12-Cabinet-White-Tolex-over-Wheat-/170831433377?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c658cea1

I had a silverface Bandmaster from the late-60s or early-70s and I didn't like the two piece aspect of it so I sold it cheap. I was more in the Marshall direction back then so the Bandmaster was very opposite in a lot of ways. When I did get that Marshall, I wished I had the old Fender, or even old Vox combo.

I'm waiting for an answer from a well known dealer, who has tons of good vintage stuff here in Italy. He has both a '63 Bassman head+cab (blonde/white) and a '64 Bandmaster. I might ask for quotes for both amps, and then I'd really have a hard time deciding between the two, I think...

I sold an old Bandmaster to an Italian dealer a while back, maybe the same amp?

Also that blonde Bassman is a superior amp to the Bandmaster. That is if it's a true blonde circuit (there are a number of variations) and not just blonde cosmetics. It won't sound like the Blackface Bandmaster you tried out, but most people believe it to be better sounding.

I suspect from what you said about comparing tweed and blackface amps you'd probably be best off getting something like Super Reverb instead of a Bandmaster. The Bandmaster amp is something of the ginger, stepchild of the family. Not because it's a bad amp, it's still a great amp, but because there are so many absolutely kickass Fender amps from that period. Given the option I'd rather have the a Bassman, a Super Reverb, Pro Reverb or Vibrolux Reverb if I was going for that whole blackface 40 watt vibe.

Also don't discount Silverface models before around '74. If you see a silverface Deluxe Reverb, Princeton Reverb or Vibrolux Reverb snap it up!

Let's try to break it into percentages (guess) beyond the player's fingers which is most of it right there anyway. If the guitar was (generously) 25% percent of the vintage type sound, the amp would probably make up 75% percent if you have ever been lucky enough to use both at the same time.

As an experiment, try and find a small, but old Fender Champ which shouldn't cost too much and play your tele through that. You will be amazed. While digital technology has leveled the playing field, it's still hard to replicate an old tube amp, Fender or otherwise. Part of it being older is that you are also playing, hopefully, through older speakers and that helps. The more original the old amp is, usually the better.

The reissue amps, while nicer for vintage tone than the modern hot amps with a vintage setting, are kind of lifeless in a way and I know what you are saying. Even when they get a warmth to them, they still don't have the same type of vibe as the old ones. I can see getting by making a guitar, a much simpler process, and have a reissue get the basic tone of an old blackguard, but amps are far more complex.

It's too bad that the old Fender amps, the bigger ones at least, cost so much and that so much of the sound is dependent on them. There's no cheap way out this if you want that exact vintage tone. I would love for it to be where all you need to do is get a reissue Fender and then have the sound wrapped up with a new amp. The sound you are likely after will come from an old, vintage, but pricey Fender amp like the existing Bassman or Bandmaster.

This thing (below) will get a high bid when it's all over but hopefully a real player who can appreciate it gets it instead of a collector who only looks to resell it for more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Fender-Band-Master-Head-and-Matching-2-X-12-Cabinet-White-Tolex-over-Wheat-/170831433377?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c658cea1

Thank you for this very thoughtful post. I understand we understand the magic of it :wink:

I plan on offering my retubed LTD plus my AER Compact 60/2 acoustic amp (a pricey little gem, which I use very little since I leaned towards electric stuff), and maybe even a bit of money on top of those, if this good italian dealer will accept the deal in this way. It would sound to me like a realistic, valuable deal for both parts (the AER is also signed by Tommy Emmanuel, even though I doubt it will rise its value).

Since I've heard that very '63 Bassman in Soave, a few days ago, played by many guests including Tommy Emmanuel with an AVRI'52, and was utterly amazed, I'd rather stick with that one if my idea of a deal is good to the seller.

(this also replies to imsilly, thank you, too)

Giacomo

I sold an old Bandmaster to an Italian dealer a while back, maybe the same amp?

Given the option I'd rather have the a Bassman, a Super Reverb, Pro Reverb or Vibrolux Reverb if I was going for that whole blackface 40 watt vibe.


Once again, the blackface Concert gets no respect.
The Rodney Dangerfield of vintage Fenders!

Thank you for this very thoughtful post. I understand we understand the magic of it :wink:

I plan on offering my retubed LTD plus my AER Compact 60/2 acoustic amp (a pricey little gem, which I use very little since I leaned towards electric stuff), and maybe even a bit of money on top of those, if this good italian dealer will accept the deal in this way. It would sound to me like a realistic, valuable deal for both parts (the AER is also signed by Tommy Emmanuel, even though I doubt it will rise its value).

Since I've heard that very '63 Bassman in Soave, a few days ago, played by many guests including Tommy Emmanuel with an AVRI'52, and was utterly amazed, I'd rather stick with that one if my idea of a deal is good to the seller.

(this also replies to imsilly, thank you, too)

Giacomo

I hope you find a nice vintage amp for a good price as there are some out there.

When someone like Fender, or Gibson try to reissue a guitar (or amp), they get close but are pulled so much by modern trends and make a hotter, louder, or faster version. Even replacement vintage pickups are wound hotter since they know that authenticity does not sell their products as much as an authentic-like product amped up to modern specs. I loved my Duncan '59 PAF and I thought I was getting that real sound, but when I bought a real PAF, I saw what the real deal was about. While it was a great pickup, it didn't work well for a lot of types of music which needed a more powerful, more midrange based pickup and thus the hotter winding of those Duncan '59s and Gibson's Classic 57s. Dimarzio's great vintage PAF reissues are nice in their own right, but like Duncan and Gibson, it's also hotter and more on the midrange than the real thing.

I think, either on purpose, or due to market pressures for "power", that the reissue market needs to have one foot in the modern world to survive and please those who want to use the vintage reissue stuff for more modern music and its higher power demands. This leaves us roots music people to pretty much have to seek out the old stuff, and usually not at a good deal these days.

Sometimes the dealers, who really know they can make a killing, are not the people to get vintage amps from. They do have to sell for a hefty profit to cover their rent and salaries. If you know of any small amp repairmen, they often have the real deal and will be willing to let them go for an honest price. Not only are the repairmen better, they can get old replacement parts for the vintage stuff.

Giacomo....perhaps a quality handwired exact replica of a Bassman from Victoria (USA)
or Flynn (UK) would get that vintage tone and not cost as much as a real vintage Bassman and not considerably more than the cold Bassman '59 LTD.

I dunno...Vintage reissue guitars and Vintage amps for that authentic vintage sound :shock::lol:

I guess I break all the rules..as I have none of the above and try to get by with what I have for playin in an Oldies Rock n-roll band..where the 'vintage' sound is truly desired :grin:


My 91' Mexican top load tele (pups are not stock) with a Hot Rod Deville 212 for an oldies classic :roll:

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My Mexican Top load again with my Blues tweed deluxe reissue for a few classic oldies tunes :sad:
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Giacomo...to qualify the above I recently got an American Vintage '52 "Coppercaster"
and played through a Valvetrain 205 "classic" which is a handwired replica '55 Princeton 5F2 with a Weber AlNiCo SIG8s it is oldschool tone heaven.

Okay, just tossing this out as someone who owns both a vintage Blackface and a vintage Tweed, but is there really anything all that special about old amps? I mean, they're nice and sound great when they're all dialed in and working right, but there are plenty of modern amps that sound just as good.

Justin


I own vintage amps too. Ya there is something special about them. They are old, hand wired, pieces of rock'n roll history, built by Leo's company. Modern amps sound good too, but I can't say how good they sound as I don't own any currently. I did have some modern tube amps and sold them all once I bought my 64 Bandmaster, which to me, did sound a lot better.

Old amps are kinda like old car american muscle cars I guess. They look and sound great. Newer cars have more HP, better fuel economy, reliability, more comfort, drive way better, yet the old American muscle cars still have a huge following and pull in big bucks! Both get you to the grocery store on Sat, but the old ones turn a lot of heads and gather attention, as they are in demand.

I don't know. I think a lot of the vintage mystique is the Grass is Greener syndrome. When somebody else plays the same combination amp/guitar/effect I have, it always sounds way better than when I play it.

Then again, maybe it's just me. As much as I like a lot of the older guitar tones, I don't have any real desire to nail them. I mean, I have the same basic rig Steve Cropper used, but even if I could make it sound like him - and trust me, I can't! - I really don't want to. He already did that. No sense in me trying to be a poor imitation 40 years too late to the party.

I don't know. I think a lot of the vintage mystique is the Grass is Greener syndrome. When somebody else plays the same combination amp/guitar/effect I have, it always sounds way better than when I play it.

Then again, maybe it's just me. As much as I like a lot of the older guitar tones, I don't have any real desire to nail them. I mean, I have the same basic rig Steve Cropper used, but even if I could make it sound like him - and trust me, I can't! - I really don't want to. He already did that. No sense in me trying to be a poor imitation 40 years too late to the party.

Even though the OP mentioned nailing vintage country tone, i was more struck by the fact that he played an old amp that finally 'did it' for him...i finally found that sound in my head when i plugged into original blackface amps...nothing else quite had the exact tone...whatever did it...old pine blahblahblah...

anyway...i just always look at it like if you are lucky enough to find what works for you, you're crazy not to buy it and start enjoying that sound every night onstage (or in the studio or in your garage or whatever)...if i had been that happy with newer amps or reissues i wouldnt have been shopping or plugged into that old amp years ago...wasn't necessarily about copying anyone's tone to a T...but my sound isn't revolutionizing anything either ;)

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