7th note of a scale..

Anyone ever notice, that while improving a solo over a given key, there are two notes that just sont sound quite right..mainly the 7th...or is it just me?? I know that usually the 7th chord in a key is diminished..is there a relation??

The 7th wants to resolve to 1, and the 4th wants to resolve to 3, for major chords anyway.

I'm sure someone else can elaborate more on the subject. However, this is all due to the tension and release concepts that are found when digging into more specific improv.

Yes there is a relation. Remember, harmonization is based off of the scale. In this case, I am assuming you are talking about the major scale. So yes, in the harmonized major scale, the 7th chord is diminished.

Harmonization is based off of taking each note/degree in the scale, and then stacking thirds on top of it. After this process is completed we are left with these results.

Ima IImi IIImi IVma Vma VImi VIIdim

so for example in the key of C you have the harmonized scale :

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

A good example of tension and release would be to play a III VI II V I. This progression sounds complete...especially since it resolves to the home chord or the I chord.

If you were to play only the III VI II and V, you should "hear" how badly the V WANTS to resolve back to the I chord.

This chordal relationship is very similar when applying it to single string improvisation.

I hope this helps at least a little bit.

The 7th wants to resolve to 1, and the 4th wants to resolve to 3, for major chords anyway.

EXACTLY!! I am learning more and more every day, that I really need to know what notes are on what frets without thinking about it and the whole theory thing..and to not bend to the 7th.

Thanks for chiming in, Dana!

I'm sure someone else can elaborate more on the subject. However, this is all due to the tension and release concepts that are found when digging into more specific improv.

Yes there is a relation. Remember, harmonization is based off of the scale. In this case, I am assuming you are talking about the major scale. So yes, in the harmonized major scale, the 7th chord is diminished.

Harmonization is based off of taking each note/degree in the scale, and then stacking thirds on top of it. After this process is completed we are left with these results.

Ima IImi IIImi IVma Vma VImi VIIdim

so for example in the key of C you have the harmonized scale :

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

A good example of tension and release would be to play a III VI II V I. This progression sounds complete...especially since it resolves to the home chord or the I chord.

If you were to play only the III VI II and V, you should "hear" how badly the V WANTS to resolve back to the I chord.

This chordal relationship is very similar when applying it to single string improvisation.

I hope this helps at least a little bit.

Thanks Krowbot..it definitely helps..I love this stuff :)

Isn't there a whole subforum for theory?

Isn't there a whole subforum for theory?

Mods can move it if theyd like...but thanks.

The flatted 7th...now THERE's a cool note. Makes me want to get drunk and dance like a fool.:mrgreen:

The flatted 7th...now THERE's a cool note. Makes me want to get drunk and dance like a fool.:mrgreen:

Works for me :grin::grin:

Just because chord changes stay in one key doesn't mean all the notes of the scale are cool to just "hang" on...

This is why I dislike looking for a catch all scale to just blow in over a set of chords...better to understand what's going on.

Sit down at a piano...play two keys right next to each other...hear that dissonance? This is what's happening anytime you hang on, say, a "B" note over any chord with a "C" in it in the same octave.

That little half-step dissonance is built right into the major scale, between the seventh and the tonic (the first note of the scale)

It's only nasty sounding in certain circumstances, mind you...I love putting these close intervals right inside a chord...

I do not agree with your premise. There are no notes which inherently sound bad in improvisation. Sometimes a note works and sometimes it doesn't , but it's not the note's fault, it's the composition's. As to bending the 7th - why not? It's done all the time. Sounds good in the right context.

As to bending the 7th - why not? It's done all the time. Sounds good in the right context.

Like say you were going to the V chord.

It's only nasty sounding in certain circumstances, mind you...I love putting these close intervals right inside a chord...

So true. If you play a close voiced chord on a piano, it sounds perfectly fine:

G-B-C-E [CMaj7]

This is harder to finger on a guitar, of course. The B-C interval inside there sounds cool to me. And if you noodle up and down (CMaj Dm7 Em7 Dm7...) it maintains its tastiness!

G-B-C-E
A-C-D-F
B-D-E-G
A-C-D-F
G-B-C-E

No complicated chords or progression there, just the major scale.

The flatted 7th...now THERE's a cool note. Makes me want to get drunk and dance like a fool.:mrgreen:

Flat 7 was going to be my tip too!

The 7 is touchy unless you're playing in majors, and rarely does that happen. Modal is much more fun, even over a major progression.

Huh?

Thank you all for your comments...maybe it was a dumb question..but Im cool with it..this is how I learn..keep 'em coming!!

Have you tryed G Major Diatonic Chords G A B C D E F#m7b5.

Huh?

Double "huh"?

I play a lot of blues and funk and my attitude is that every note is available for me to flavour the stew with.

I use the maj7 scale tone in blues quite a bit. I don't typically hang on it (sometimes I do) but it sets up a nice release to the tonic. Maj7-9-1 or maj7-9-b9-1 or 6-b7-7-1 etc. if phrased appropriately works in a blues. Usually I would play the maj7 on an up beat so I land on a chord tone on a down beat. But really I find as I grow as a musician there are less and less 'rules' other than make it musical and that pretty much means learning how to phrase and more specifically how to end a phrase I would say. It's amazing what I can get away with at a blues jam that the audience's ear will accept as long as I finish a phrase with something that sounds even vaguely like a cliche blues lick.

Maybe I should have phrased my question differently. I know there are all kinds of applications where anything works..Im really not as dumb as the question sounds. I know the 7th works fine as a passing note or whatever..but hanging on it just sounds off.

I appreciate everyones comments. I have ben playing by "feel" and learning othe peoples music for so long..that I figured Id better start learning actual theory..and holy cr@p, there is soooo much to learn. One answer leads to 10 other questions. Working on modes now with my teacher..my head is about to explode!

Have you tryed G Major Diatonic Chords G A B C D E F#m7b5.

Working on all the modes now, ricks..but I will try this one next..thank you :)

This thread could make anybody's head explode - but I digress. Anyway, it really has more to do with 'hearing' that 7th sound regardless of it being flatted or natural, dominant or major/minor. You head and your ears just need to get 'bigger'.

Isn't there a whole subforum for theory?

er ...this is it....isnt it?

For what its worth I usually hear tensions resolving anywhere but the root note - I must have had a disturbed upbringing!:twisted:

So the 7th - assuming we are talking about major 7th - (its hard to tell) - and also assuming we are in some kind of diatonic harmonic zone, resolves to the 6th for me a lot of the time.

Its cool to think of it as a passing note - but how? Passing from where to where exactly? From the root note to the b7? Its cool to think of anything as a passing note come to think of it - Im going to bed...:arrow:

Hey slowpinky..yes..I am referring to the major 7th. And it sounds to me that when I sit on the major 7th, that it wants to resolve back to the root...at least with the chord progressions Im using.

Sorry OP, my "huh?" Was directed to the post above it.

In a lot of jazz instruction the third and seventh* are described as "guide tones," the principle notes you can structure an improvised melody around. The 4th is an "avoid note" -- if you hit it you have to get off it or resolve it. Otherwise the dissonance messes up the harmony. That's why some players to use the lydian mode, with a sharp 4th, rather the normal major scale when playing over the tonic.

*the major 7th doesn't sound so hot in rock/blues/folk genres because it's not part of the pentatonic scale on which most of them are based.

Sorry OP, my "huh?" Was directed to the post above it.

No prob, Jazztele..I did figure that out since you first left an informative post..Thank you very much for that..Im taking notes :)

The note B is the seventh note of the C major scale. If you are in the key of C major, the note B functions as a leading tone, and it elicits in the listener's mind/ear a need to resolve up by semitone to the tonic note, C. Of all of the notes in the major scale, the leading tone creates the strongest tension and pull toward resolution.

Now, if you are in C major and are soloing over a G7 chord, the note B will sound stable in that context, as B is the third of G7. However, in a larger context of the phrase, B is unstable relative to the tonic, C. One of the powerful things about music that is based on the idea of keys and chords is that a single note can create one effect locally and another effect globally.

There is another element at play, which is called dissonance treatment. Let's say that you are in C major and are soloing over an F major chord (consisting of the notes F A C). Here, the note B can be treated as a dissonant passing tone between the chord tones A and C. Often the notes A and C will sound on a metrically strong beat or division, while the passing tone is on a weak beat or division. This is most often true in simple music, such as nursery rhymes. In more challenging music, you can put the B on a strong beat, which tarts up the vibe.

Another type of dissonance is a neighbor note. On the F chord, you can play A B A or C B C. In both cases, the note B is a neighbor.

There is more to it than this, and I am speaking of the general case such as heard in simple music like nursery rhymes. More challenging and ambiguous interpretations are the norm in classical compositions and jazz. Blues has a different dissonance structure, but more on that later.