Some Advice: Taylor Dealer & Taylor Guitars not helping...

I bought a NOS 2007 Taylor GC5e from my local independent dealer recently (1 month ago this week). I got a great deal for it. It looks great and sounds great. Plays great too...

except this one thing that started happening after I got it home:
http:///www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor/taylor_problem1.jpg
http:///www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor/taylor_problem2.jpg
http:///www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor/taylor_problem3.jpg
http:///www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor/taylor_problem4.jpg

It's hard to catch on camera, but it's way more prominent in person. Actually everyone who (non-guitarists as well) handles it thinks first: wow gorgeous...then second: oh, what's this?

I started by mentioning it to the dealer. I got rebuffed with the "guitars are made of wood..." speech

Then I called Taylor and got rebuffed with the same if not worse. One guy said "just leave it out for a year or two and it will probably settle in" (it's a 2007!)
The other there told me "if it plays good and sounds good, just play guitar man and move on"

I then talked again to the dealer who I showed it in person and after first treating me like I was trying to pull something over on him and giving me that used car salesman after the sale attitude FINALLY saw it and agreed that it was unusual. He has made no effort to replace or refund even after I asked him. He said that it's got a lifetime warranty and if it causes some structural problem, Taylor will replace it. Then joked "if I'd known it was there I'd have charged you extra for an unusual feature like that...ha ha " :( ugh.

So I spoke with Taylor again and this guy got feisty with me quick (I must have a red flag in there office now!) Saying I could pay freight to have it shipped back but there was no guarantee that they would do anything and I'd have to pay freight back as well!

Nice to know the Taylor reputation holds up. I saved for years to get my first taylor and had heard of the taylor experience for years as well. I didn't get this. At least not yet.

The last thing said was the local rep was coming thru town next week and I'll let him look. if he thinks taylor should do something about it then they will...but then I'll be without a guitar for a couple of weeks or more. and still no guarantee!

Now I wish I'd stuck with cheap mid range priced guitars.

If the rep stands me up, what's my next course of action?? Just play it and shut up? :?

Can't see the pics... They are not showing up. What exactly is the problem? Personally, I have not been the least bit impressed by Taylor guitars in a LONG time. Back in the 80's to about the mid 90's, I would have moved heaven and earth to get one. These days? No way.

One of the guys I gig with regularly has had a nice one for four years now. Also has had four top cracks repaired. I don't know the model, but it's NOT a cheap one. He knows how to take care of a guitar, it's a bad piece of wood. But Taylor's take on it was that they only crack if they're not properly maintained. Funny, none of his other very nice guitars seem to have any issues whatsoever.

I love their older instruments soooo much. Don't know what happened to them, but they are just not impressive anymore. Many other guitars I'd buy before one of theirs. That would not have been the case twenty years ago. Some of them sound GREAT, but just don't seem to be built to last anymore. I see far too many with issues/damage not covered by warranty, and they don't seem to me to play as well as they used to either. Used to be one of the best "off the rack" players in the business. their guitars just had amazing setups and action. Not so much with the ones I've played recently.

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes not.

In this case I can't tell what you're complaining about from your pictures. All I can see is that you've got some kind of bright red line on your guitar, and it keeps changing shape.

Can you describe the difficulty in text?

Yes, the red circles are there to highlight the "indention" or "ripple" that occurs an inch down from the front of the guitar on the sides, mostly around the waist area and lower bouts top and bottom. It's consistent in it's location almost like it's right above where the kerfing ends inside the guitar on the sides.

Jake, sorry the pics don't show up for you. They show up here, but here is the straight link to the folder they are located:
http://www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor

Also, the "lines" are consistent with the bumpers on the case. Could it be that this guitar lived too long in it's case? or out and once I got it and put it in there it's done this?
http://www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor/taylor_problem5.jpg
http://www.patrickburnett.com/clients/taylor/taylor_problem6.jpg

Also, I keep my music room at a pretty constant temp of 72 and relative humidity at 50% year round. I have many other instruments out and hanging on the walls. I've been a guitar owner and player for 28 years. I've owned solid wood instruments as well as half and half and full laminated, along with many electrics over the years.

I've never had an issue like this. :(

is it OHSC?

weird, but i'd guess the case did it.

and start making calls to Taylor corporate offices and taking names....then talk to HIS boss...then HIS boss...until you get to the top (assuming it has a lifetime warranty)
its not like you bought it from some guy on the corner, ..the guys an authorized dealer, rite??

fwiw, Martin replaced my d15 twice....for total free...2 new guitars...free ship too :mrgreen:

Yes, OHSC from taylor.

I've been taking names of everyone I talk to at Taylor proper but it's a bit of a tribe over there and I'm afraid they just aren't listening. Having the dealer see it and agree that it's happening I was hoping would put some weight into my argument but apparently not.

The Taylor rep is supposed to be in this store this or next week. The dealer is supposed to call me but if I get blown off then I guess I'll ramp it up and start calling them daily to see if I can get higher up the food chain over there.

It's a real shame that from the get go I've been treated on the phone as if I was trying to pull the wool over there eyes on a legitimate issue from a legitimate customer.

I understand that they can't "fix" if it they "can't see it over the phone" as the last guy at Taylor I talked to said, but at least I was hoping for some more compassion and service towards helping.

I guess my next course of action after the rep (or not, depending if the dealer is going to follow through) is to talk to an attorney to send a letter on my behalf? Or is that to far too soon?

One of our local retired independent shop owners and one of the most respected musicians in the area said he was appalled by the way I was being treated by Taylor. For 15 years he was a dealer and had nothing but good to say. He said that I should send a certified letter to Bob Taylor himself.

It's all a shame coz the dealer should have stepped up... this tells me he knew of the problem and knew that I didn't know to look for something like that. and to tell the truth, I didn't notice it when buying it, it seems to have developed after putting it in the case, which is very very tight btw, and taking it home. I've not left the house with it except in air conditioned cars and moderate weather. All within reasonable limits of a finely made instrument... I got the dud and no one wants to do anything about it yet!

Was able to access the folder and finally see the pics.

If it's what it looks like to me, I've never seen it before, but it wouldn't bother me. Doesn't look like anything structural, or anything that could be seen from across the room. It might even only be in the finish. Like maybe it wasn't cured totally before it sat in the case for a long time? Or maybe the case kinda re-shaped the finish?

Glass is like that. If you look at a really old house with original windows, the glass will be noticeably thicker at the bottom of the window than at the top. the reason is that lots of glass is never totally solid, and gravity will do this to it over time. The finish might be the same way. Sitting in the casee like that might have left an impression.

Personally, if the guitar played great and sounded great, it wouldn't bother me in the least, but I am not a typical owner, and my guitars are tools, not eye candy or collectors items. Even the highest end pieces I have get beat up at gigs.

If it is determined to be a finish thing, and I think it is, warranty might not cover it. Be prepared for that possibility. It may be ruled something totally natural, environmental, and not covered.

Thanks for your perspective. My wife also feels this way and has encouraged me to just learn to love it and play the crap out of this thing. It does sound great and plays great.

I think I just built up in my head this expectation of what my "taylor" experience would be like based on so many others I've read and know and I'm not getting that. I don't play professionally and I do like them for their aesthetic value as well as sonic value. I also don't usually throw $2k at an instrument like this to get something inferior when I could have just bought a yamaha AC3M and saved $1300 for solid wood.... but I wanted that Taylor...

chalk it up to lesson learned. Probably the last Taylor I ever buy... Lord knows there are lots of great brands that care about how their instruments are made out there that would appreciate my money more than the Megalith that Taylor has become. :(

I know this may not help your situation, but it appears to me that the guitar is "too wet". Meaning that it's been stored in a high humidity atmosphere for a long time. You brought it home and put it in the case and now the expanded wood is conforming to the confines of the case. I would get a good case dehumidifer and leave it inside the guitar and case for a week or two to see if it dries out a bit more and contracts back to being more uniform. I also play a Taylor and it's the best acoustic I've owned, but they are a bit overly sensitive to humidity that is too high or too low.

Wood does move. Thinner wood can move more, especially if it's not braced. Sides, and tall sides, are susceptible to a (mild) kind of cupping you see on exposed decking, especially if it's thin, not quartersawn, or has some runout. (You should see my guitar ... but it's got really thin sides, and I moved from Oregon to Pennsylvania in December, basically went from 100% humidity to probably less than 20%, and left it out of the case. Sides and neck are the only pieces that didn't develop cracks, too! That was 30+ years ago, it's still Ok :))

elmicko: thanks, you may be right. after I bought it I took the guitar to my luthier/tech friend that runs a respected shop. at that time the problem wasn't apparent. he mentioned just looking at the wood grain that he thought it was really dry and said that "Jack keeps his shop really too dry". So once it lived in my room, the problem appeared.

We have had a strange weather season here with little winter and a quick wet spring that is quickly moving into summer weather already! The humidity in my room with the heat off was hovering around 56-59% for the first two weeks, topping out at 61%. It seems that the guitar freaked out then.

The room is about 50-52% now but still the guitar has the issues. I'm guessing you may be right that the interior of the guitar hasn't dried out enough and since it lived for so long in a dry room, it got used to it.

I just bought the planet waves humidipak and hope after a few days in the case with this system, it will level out and return to normal...maybe...

Take it to a Taylor road show with your receipt...

It may take several days for it to stablize, but I really think it's just a humidity issue. One of the side effects to the Taylor tone formula is guitars that are very humidity sensitive.

I bought a NOS 2007 Taylor GC5e from my local independent dealer recently

First, a general observation. This is between you and the dealer. Not the factory. The guy you bought it from is the guy who is supposed to make it good. That's why they gave him the franchise. It's on him, period.

Your wording is interesting. Is this guy a Taylor-authorized dealer or not? Also, was the guitar sold to you as new? Given that the guitar is a 2007 and it's now 2012, I'm smelling some kind of shenanigans. Either it's used, and therefore not under warranty, or it's new, and your dealer needs to make this right.

Good luck. It looks like a humidity issue to me, no more, no less, but since I'm not there to handle the axe I can't say for sure.

I guess my next course of action after the rep (or not, depending if the dealer is going to follow through) is to talk to an attorney to send a letter on my behalf? Or is that to far too soon?

Oh yeah, this. The day you do this is the day you lose any effective remedy that won't cost far more than the guitar is worth, because from that day on, you'll only be talking to Taylor's legal department. And they won't talk to you directly...only your lawyer. Last one I had to hire ran $300/hour.

Good point. If it has been hanging in a showroom for 5+ years, and is now in a humid area, it will take some time to stabilize, maybe a long time. If the dealer is a Taylor dealer, he should be well aware of Taylor's thoughts on the subject of guitar storage, and by ignoring their recomendations, well, that's just nutty.

The factory is powerless to help you if you won't let them see the guitar. Remember, their warranty only covers defects caused by things within their control. A dealer that dries a guitar out over the course of five years, and an owner who tries to rehydrate it over the course of a few days is outside their control.

It's possible you bought a lemon, and that you may have to live with it. There's every possibility, however, that the guitar will be just fine given some time and care.

Thanks for your perspective. My wife also feels this way and has encouraged me to just learn to love it and play the crap out of this thing. It does sound great and plays great.:(

If Taylor were to replace it for you, you may get a really dead instrument. Not intentionally, just something pretty and soul-less. If it's not structural with this one, let it go.

If your wife likes it, enjoy... That's your harshest audience...

If I bought that guitar new for $2000.00, I would be wanting it replaced. If it was an old guitar and like that when I bought it...well you get what you buy. It may be hard to get any action though.

I know this may not help your situation, but it appears to me that the guitar is "too wet". Meaning that it's been stored in a high humidity atmosphere for a long time. You brought it home and put it in the case and now the expanded wood is conforming to the confines of the case. I would get a good case dehumidifer and leave it inside the guitar and case for a week or two to see if it dries out a bit more and contracts back to being more uniform. I also play a Taylor and it's the best acoustic I've owned, but they are a bit overly sensitive to humidity that is too high or too low.

I work on acoustic guitars for a living and that was my impression, too. I got a Martin SWD16GT in from LA recently that was swollen up like a bloated hippo. De-humidified it in my location (New Mexico) for 3 weeks and it went back to normal. I've also seen guitars get over-humidified in the case due to too much humidity in there and a tightly sealed case.

Thank you everyone for your replies and perspective. I hope you all know I'm not just complaining to be complaining. I'm not trying to vilify Taylor or the dealer, per se. BUT that said, $2000 is a lot of money to me and many people, so getting what I paid for, i.e. Taylor Quality, is important to me.

The dealer is an authorized Taylor dealer. I'm told one of the largest in the area.

The guitar, although 2007, is verified by Taylor to be NEW OLD STOCK. It was sent to the dealer 3 months ago at a discount, one that I'm told was passed on to me. Originally it sold for $2498 (GC5 with the Expression System). I purchased it new, with an unregistered serial number and in spotless condition, March 20, 2012 for $1900 plus tax.

I inspected it and saw no signs of any damage or use whatsoever.

OKAY, now for where I stand based on many of your suggestions and comments:
I completely agree that it's GOT to be a humidity issue. And now that I've been able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together here's what I think:

It's been kept at varying degrees of humidity in other shops or at Taylor since 2007 manufacture (47-??%). I think Jack keeps his room a touch under Factory Specs probably closer to 40%. I brought it home and am one to keep my instruments out in the room. My humidity at that point was around 55% +/- 2%. It peaked at 61% during some hot days when the heat wasn't on and the AC wasn't switched on either. But no more than 4 days total. I travelled with the guitar to our vacation home in Missouri mid month where the climate is more temperate and humidity closer to 50%.

By the time I got home the ridges had appeared and were getting more prominent day by day. This was when I started contact with the Dealer & Taylor. I was really only hoping to get some tips but was met with strident rebuking or indifference every time.

I realize that NO ONE can tell me with out looking at it. So I showed it to friends and pros that are, IMHO, knowledgeable. They'd never seen anything like this before.

The dealer then has seen it and says the same thing. I've heard it's "too wet", it's "Too dry", "leave it out a year or two and it will be fine", "play it and move on".

Finally, THANKS TO YOU GUYS HERE AT TDPRI, I heard some sound advice and have set up a Planet Waves Humidipak in the guitar and headstock in the case. My hopes are that in time it will help equalize it and return it to normal.

As said: The guitar plays and sounds great, so I'll continue to enjoy it. I now know that I will have to take "special care" of this instrument. But I do hope, that will a little extra regimen on my part, I'll get a lifetime's enjoyment out of it.

As for how I feel about my treatment from the dealer and the manufacturer...well, we'll just have to see if I ever step foot in there or purchase from them again... I sure do love that Taylor sound, so something tells me I'll get over my pride and buy them again, maybe just somewhere else! :)

Thanks to you all again and I'll update this as soon as I see changes (or not) and if anything else happens.

DUNCANANGUS: I totally agree, I biggest fear was to send it to them and get an instrument in return that just didn't speak to me like this one did. :)

ARBITER: You are totally right too. I don't really want to go down that road either. Although in the past I've had some great results with a letter or two from my attorney to take care of some business that might have gotten much worse. I was lucky to be in a barter arrangement with him and it didn't cost me much. I don't have that luxury now.

I think you should play the guitar and enjoy it as there does not seem to be any structural damage...

Even if you had an ATTY send a letter , of which he may initially frown on..Taylor will say.." send us the guitar, we have never seen it" and they would be correct...When an Atty gets involved a known "resolution" is understood..in this case nobody really knows anything... What would you be asking for ? What did Taylor refuse to do ? What did they say after seeing the guitar ? All these things matter...

The dealer is 100% responsible for your axe, seeing you just bought it, NOT Taylor...he should have contacted Taylor ,not you , seeing it's a recent purchase from him.

I also suspect that over the next several decades, should you keep the guitar, many other things will change, this will be the least significant.

Plus..it is not a brand new guitar..it is a brand new purchase but the guitar is 5 years old...

I also feel we should tread lightly on TAYLOR in general, they have done more to help us common slugs to understand Acoustic Guitars and wood over the last decade than the other vendors combined, and that includes Gibson and Martin...Sure there was frustration with the phone calls to them but maybe they didn't really understand what the issue was and maybe they didn't understand why you didn't bring it back to the dealer, which is always step #1.


All that being said...

You have a great guitar..enjoy it ! let it breath out of the case for a while...put it on a stand and look at it, enjoy it's beauty....never mind all the details about humidity in your house etc..when and if the neck moves you will know it...to me this whole issue could have been avoided by a quality discussion with the dealer you bought it from....

Me, I am playing an 03/ 312CE, I have had 3 Taylors, each excellent, but this 03 is just not an Instrument you can put down...it's a "writer"...this axe has 100's of songs and melody's inside it...

I also own a fairly new Breedlove and a 69 Guild...each excellent, each different...oh and over the past several decades the Guild has reacted pretty crazy to conditions, one very small crack repair and one more significant crack repair on the top, just from getting old and reacting to "existence"..