Various pickup's ability to clean up without losing definition?

Hi folks,

i'm getting ready to get a cv50 tele and i plan to pop in P90's in neck and maybe bridge (if i manage to trim the p90 bobbin in a manner that it fits in a route that is entirely covered by the stock tele bridge plate). I'm after a guitar that looks more or less stock, nothing fancy, that is simple, but very versatile (this is how i feel about the p90 equiped teles). Especially love the demo of a black dove Tele here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaQh0nvlxHc

But i'm wondering about one thing concerning the p90 pickups. I tested a Les Paul Jr. in a store. It had a dog ear p90 in bridge and it's ability to maintain clarity, definition and treble with volume knob turned down even at a notch above 0 was simply amazing compared to any other guitar i've owned/played. Is this something that is inherent to the p90 design or is it the combo of the p90's (single coils) and a 500k pot (afaik gibson uses 500k pots also for p90's)? Even though stock tele pickups are treblier, they lose a lot of definition when rolled back, compared to the LP Jr with it's P90. All humbuckers i've tried turn to mush when volume is backed off quite a bit. And i've NEVER heard a guitar that gives really detailed and nice cleans when volume is 0ish - between 0 and 1. And that LP Jr. with it's one pickup was simply amazing, also due to the ability to work the volume pot so easily. I suppose the stock LP Jr. has no treble bleed mods or anything along those lines? So it's really the P90's + 500k pots that seem so far ahead of other pickups in this regard, or is there some kind of "trickery" going on with the LP Jr's fantastic useability of all volume levels beginning from 0.5 onwards?

If that LP Jr was a vintage reissue, chances are it had 50s wiring. 50s wiring helps the signal maintain treble when rolling the vol down.

P90s have a variety of sources of eddy currents in their design, which means that as you go up in frequency, the resistance goes up dramatically. This will absolutely prevent smooth performance of the pickup across the taper. If you're interested in a steel-poled pickup that doesn't suffer these types of problems (even better than conventional Fender pickups in this regard), and has greater sensitivity to note fundamental, you should check out Bill Lawrence's microcoils which are available in Tele-sized housings. Additionally, they're extremely low-noise. You can turn down the treble boost at the amp to get more-standard P90 tones without your highend disappearing, and add uppermid coloration around 2 kHz through using capacitors on the tone control for a really fantastic distortion tone, particularly in the bridge.

Thansk for the replies! I'm not sure if that is considered the reissue series, but i think it was this model:
http://www.thomann.de/de/gibson_les_paul_junior_1958_sch.htm

If it had the 50's wiring, then it works really great with this pickup. Of course, the tone probably changed when rolling down the volume, but it always stayed nicely detailed with lots of twang - the volume was way more useable than that of the CV50 Tele and a Mexican standard tele. I was running them through a vox hw ac30, which probably helps a lot as it has loads of treble to spare to begin with.
Derek, thanks for the tip on the microcoils - didn';t know about those and the price is ok. They look quite funny though - i've seen many other p90esque tele pickups and these are very different from the other designs. Do you feel like those come closer to a real p90 tone than others (i'm sceptical about the p90 in tele bridge format, as long as they change the dimensions of the coil to fit the standard tele cover - in clips i hear the nod towards a p90, but most of those designs also have some extremely harsh highs and a very sharp, pronounced attack on the higher strings - such sharpness is not present in real p90's. Are the microcoils different?

Many P90s I've tried clean up very well, its almost like the midrange dips more than the other frequencies when rolling down.

On my Guild Starfire III-90, I kept the bridge PU around '4' and play Albert Collins licks - worked great. Those were Duncan Antiquities.

Derek, thanks for the tip on the microcoils - didn';t know about those and the price is ok. They look quite funny though - i've seen many other p90esque tele pickups and these are very different from the other designs. Do you feel like those come closer to a real p90 tone than others (i'm sceptical about the p90 in tele bridge format, as long as they change the dimensions of the coil to fit the standard tele cover - in clips i hear the nod towards a p90, but most of those designs also have some extremely harsh highs and a very sharp, pronounced attack on the higher strings - such sharpness is not present in real p90's. Are the microcoils different?

I'm not sure I want to say the micros are overtly like p90s at all, since they are considerably clearer and have greater highend extension than almost any Fender-style pickups on the market. In this way, they're very unlike p90s, but the micros allow you to set your amp or your guitar in radically different ways to get a spectrum of versatility without losing the clarity and sensitivity to technique and tone differences. Here's the tonestack's function (http://www.gmarts.org/index.php?go=212) on Fenders and Marshalls, for reference. I use a Fender Twin Reverb and turn my treble down (again, the boost isn't needed to get the highs or clarity, so it's somewhere 4 or below, often around 2-3), the mids up (gives more body to the note fundamental with many notes on the higher strings, prevents "thinness"), and turn the bass so it's well-balance (typically around 3-4 for me). Check out the microcoil coloration guide (http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/topic/10702) for ideas on how to get what you want out of the tone control. I often keep the tone control just barely above the beginning of the taper with many of the coloration options. If you like P90s for versatility, you'll probably find what you need with the right coloration and amp adjustments.

The micros are made with gauge 46 wire, rather than 42, which allows Bill to get many more turns per square (density) - a classic Fender pickup is around 180 in a well executed example, while the micros are closer to 440.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/704363eb5e57b07a4e2e98602dc25f0c404903e4_r.jpg

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/ed3361405b10bd5441db9e472fb059d0e34b9856_r.jpg

The result is a much smaller coil, not just in relation to a p90, but in relation to any pickup matched to the conventional setup here. The considerably greater density increases voltage output (requiring less winds for a strong voltage output), which is aided by the magnetic design around the small coil for an extremely efficient pickup, as opposed to the tall coils used in most Fender-style pickups.


The LP Jr.'s design is actually quite cool, especially the bridge, which is under-appreciated.

+1 on a MicroCoil as a SC P90 substitute. They have the most bass of any SC I've ever heard, and a low Q factor for smooth clear extended highs. They are just very full, transparent and responsive pickups. As DK says, you'll probably want to drop the bass and/or highs a bit, and experiment with mid range boost to get the "beef" associated with a P90. Point is with the MicroCoils: it's all there in the first place to tweak as you like. Nothing is lacking, or harsh. What's cool about the MicroCoils is they are low inductance, but med/high output. At 2H neck/2.8H bridge, you can keep your 250k pots and get plenty of highs. As with all pickups, a reasonable low capacitance cable will ensure no mid-range harshness. YMMV, but I found a ~200pF cable is really nice with the bridge 2.8H MicroCoil.

It's not about bass, but the strength of the note fundamental in relation to the especially the next 3 harmonics and the balance to the highend above. Talking about tone requires an understanding of the Fourier spectrum and not simply a frequency response as the voice of an instrument. If it were about bass, you could boost the lowend on "less bassy" pickups at the amp and get the same response as a pickup with strong sensitivity to note fundamental, which isn't true. This type of thinking is what makes people refer to some pickups as "scooped" (impossible!) and makes many misunderstand the relations between the guitar, its electronics, and the functions of the amp. The microcoils need a little rethinking of how to use the amp when one is used to compensating for other pickups' performance, especially if those pickups are plagued by eddy currents as most P90s are, and can easily approximate the overall tonal balance of many pickups without the sources of distortion that make pickups harsh, edgy or muddy.

Yes, DK. The fundamental is very strong in the MicroCoils. It's a very important point. The bass is also stronger than any other SC I've ever tried, and than the HB's I've tried too. Some pickups have a higher balance of upper bass "beef", but none have the depth I've experienced with the MicroCoils. In my experience, the L280 is close, but the bass punch is more "concussive" than the MicroCoil, which is more fat and bouncy. That's why I'd think that by lowering the preamp's bass knob a bit and possibly raising the mid, you should be able to accentuate the upper bass "beef" with a MicroCoil. You can reduce bass without any loss in clarity of the fundamental, but with the benefits of reduced hum and preamp distortion "flutter". However, the more you have to boost bass to get a full fat tone, the more you raise hum, distortion flutter, and the general mud that comes with a lack of fundamental distinction amidst the bass spectrum you are boosting. So, the MicroCoil has the advantages of both strong fundamental and deep bass.