.047 Orange drop cap for Tone control?

Just got a Tele and the guy I bought it from said it's .047 orange drop cap for the tone control is "better" than other caps. Is that true?

Some use 0.022μF - it's all about the sound you want. The make isn't material either although Sprague orange drops are de rigueur.

Let the cap debate begin (again)

Is the orange drop a good cap?: Yes

Is it better than the other caps?: No (IMHO)

Your going to get a wide range of responses to your question. Some people prefer one type of cap construction over another (poly,ceramic,PIO,ect.), but essentially I'm not convinced there's any difference.

The tone caps only job is how the treble frequencies are shed to the ground through the tone pot. The value of the the cap determines more than the initial construction.

Like I said, your going to get a lot of different opinions. If your interested in more info, do a thread search for "Tone Caps".

Electrons don't care what type of capacitor you have. Yes, the value matters (0.022μF, 0.047μF etc) and some are made to tighter specifications than others but that's about it.

http://ericlightborn.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

it never ends.

it never ends.

+1

I had a .047 orange drop and thought the sound was a bit too dark for me. Switched to a .022 ceramic disk I had laying around and it brightened up my tone a bit.

no

http://ericlightborn.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

LMAO! Now if this was the US Government we'd commission a study to find out why the horse died from the beating, then pay for another study to analyze whether or not that was the appropriate way to beat it to death. If it was found that the prior method was incorrect they would then resurrect the dead horse and beat it to death again the proper way. Afterword they would publish a 1000 page diatribe on the government approved way to beat a horse to death.

Of course we aren't the US Government so instead we just keep on beating it anyway even though it's been dead for a very, very, very, long time. :mrgreen:

Yes, it's better than other caps. The best are these:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31C2SmoACLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Yes, it's better than other caps. The best are these:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31C2SmoACLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


But don't they melt when you try to solder them to the pot. :confused: :wink:

Well if it helps I just replaced the stock IC503Z with a 255 Sprague 0.047 +/- 10% on my MiM standard tele. IMHO the orange drop is far better than the stock ceramic, but as others have mentioned that the value and tolerance are what makes the difference, the dielectric is really irrelevant.

Sent from my HTC Desire using TDPRI

Hmm, orange drop aka "metallised polyester dipped radial" (polyester film is aka Mylar film)
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/image.php?type=T&id=1963http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/image.php?type=T&id=1965
There you are - 22nF in blue and 47nF in traditional orange, yours for all of 15p each. http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/wallbash.gif

I've had the opposite experience to gtrguru. I put in a set of Tonerider Vintage p/ups and an orange drop cap. Now it's almost too bright. BritishBluesBoy is absolutely right- electrons are not fussy( I am a Maths and Electronics teacher). I would still use a .047uF cap as it allows a few of the mid range frequencies to pass through creating a slightly "warmer" sound- especially in the mid position. If you want to go really bright sound use a .022uF cap. I still recommend .047uF, and yes, the ceramic discs do just the same job as an Orange drop.It's the value that counts, not always the brand of cap. Hope I've been of some help.

'Orange Drop' is a registered brand name of Vishay Sprague.

The 225P series are polyester and the 715P series are polypropylene.
They are both 'Orange Drops'

Whether you pick a 22nF or 47nF depends on how you use the tone control.

The turn of the tone knob on both covers the same range of roll-off frequencies until you get down to zero/mud, but at a different point. The change of capacitor just changes the "taper" of the control, the point at which you get the cut-off you are after.

I wouldn't use a ceramic, not because it won't work - it will sound just the same as any other capacitor of the same value, but because they have a tendency to fall apart.

I would however recommend a 250k log pot for the tone control especially if it is a 1-tone control system and especially if it is on single-coil pickups. And then experiment with the value of your capacitor to find one you like - from 10nF through 22nF, 33nF, 47nF, 100nF, 220nF in either inexpensive polyester "Mylar" film (8p.ea) or metallised polyester dipped radial "orange drop" (15p.ea) types. Polyester axial "audio" types are good too (£1) but beyond that it is snake oil.
What is the difference between these types? - mainly reliability and susceptibility to external interference (mainly high voltage noise - not a problem inside a guitar).
If you do use an axial type then the outer wrap should be the earthy side, if you can work out which end that is.
Why use high voltage capacitors of 100-400VDC wkg? - they have thicker, stronger wires which are easier to solder.

'Orange Drop' is a registered brand name of Vishay Sprague.

The 225P series are polyester and the 715P series are polypropylene.
They are both 'Orange Drops'

The term is about as generic as "Hoover®" for vacuum cleaner.
Vishay Orange Drop® polyester are metallised film (Filmite "E") and look just like the epoxy coated ones shown above for good reason, Sprague is dead, long live Vishay, absolutely huge electronics company.

Polypropylene tend to be lower value capacitors than we want here, although a 100pF or 220pF across the jack can suppress RF interference. Polypropylene and polyester dielectrics have different temperature and high voltage characteristics, of little concern inside a guitar.

30 yrs old and still going strong...

my fav Tele's guts.... orange...mmmmm:lol:

Polypropylene tend to be lower value capacitors than we want here, although a 100pF or 220pF across the jack can suppress RF interference. Polypropylene and polyester dielectrics have different temperature and high voltage characteristics, of little concern inside a guitar.

Not according to Vishay. The 715P range go to 0.47μF

The best thing to do is get 4 alligator clips and some wire to make 2 short jumpers. Remove the cap currently in your guitar and try different materials and different values and see if there is any difference. You should be able to tell a difference between .047 and .022, but if you have a really bright guitar try putting both caps in to make a .069 which will be darker and should do a good Wah Wah with the tone knob.

I doubt many have actually done this experiment, but the different materials do taper differently. What is interesting is how different forums have different "mobs" that all jump in when a cap question is asked, post the beating a dead horse icon and loudly proclaim that yes/no caps do/don't sound different. It is a cheap experiment that takes little time and is the way to best answer the question. It is also best if you have a digital multimeter to know exactly what the cap value is because the printed value, especially on some of the Chinese caps I have tried, the printed value and reality can be really different!

Yep, clip leads and a fist full of different caps to find the one you like.

(Boy, I'm glad no one brought up the effect of different types of caps on phase shift in complex, harmonically rich AC waveforms!)

I had a .047mfd cap in my Classic Vibe Custom Tele and thought it was too dark and muddy in the 7-10 range on the tone control so I put a .022mfd and like it better and never gets dark and muddy but maybe just a tad less dark between 7-10 than I might want so I may try something in the middle like a .033mfd and see if it suits me better. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes so you might be better served by the clip lead test mentioned. I have done it before but not on this guitar. Maybe I should just do that here before actually installing a .033mfd cap. That way I only have to lift one side of the cap on the tone control for the test.

To paraphrase my colleague from Colorado; "Life was too short to worry" so for me a .033 cap solved that issue by splitting it right down the middle (almost). :mrgreen:

FWIW it worked for me Bubba and I saved the cost of the wire an alligator clips, LOL. Besides I figured that if I paid for that nice chrome knob on my tone pot and the tone controls on my amp I should at least get my money's worth from them. :wink:

To paraphrase my colleague from Colorado; "Life was too short to worry" so for me a .033 cap solved that issue by splitting it right down the middle (almost). :mrgreen:

FWIW it worked for me Bubba and I saved the cost of the wire an alligator clips, LOL. Besides I figured that if I paid for that nice chrome knob on my tone pot and the tone controls on my amp I should at least get my money's worth from them. :wink:

Thanks! you just saved me the trouble.... .033mfd it is then! :wink:

Im jealous soulman969! You have tone controlS on your amp? Both my Swart's and my Victoria only have one and my Wife's tweed champ has none! I actually have always used the guitar knobs a lot because I saw my heroes do so, but now it is so much of my style I tend to listen to the tone pots and caps more than most.

Hey, if you know of a great amp tech send me a pm please! They are tweed Fender style amps, so nothing super difficult, but I am done with the local guy around here.

This Fender Standard Tele diagram (http://support.fender.com/service_diagrams/telecaster/013-5102B_SISD.pdf) shows a .05uF Capacitor.
The .047 Orange Drop-mentioned in this thread is close enough for me. :wink:

Im jealous soulman969! You have tone controlS on your amp? Both my Swart's and my Victoria only have one and my Wife's tweed champ has none! I actually have always used the guitar knobs a lot because I saw my heroes do so, but now it is so much of my style I tend to listen to the tone pots and caps more than most.

Hey, if you know of a great amp tech send me a pm please! They are tweed Fender style amps, so nothing super difficult, but I am done with the local guy around here.

PM on the way.

As for those amp tone controls, I don't mess with them much but every once in a while I give 'em tweak or two to make sure they still work. I paid for 'em and I want my monies worth. LOL

As for the Tele's well I'm always jackin' around with the tone settings on those. I think there's different caps in a couple of them but it's kind of like raiding the fridge. I can always find somethin' I like in there. :wink:

I had a .047mfd cap in my Classic Vibe Custom Tele and thought it was too dark and muddy in the 7-10 range on the tone control so I put a .022mfd and like it better and never gets dark and muddy but maybe just a tad less dark between 7-10 than I might want so I may try something in the middle like a .033mfd and see if it suits me better. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes so you might be better served by the clip lead test mentioned. I have done it before but not on this guitar. Maybe I should just do that here before actually installing a .033mfd cap. That way I only have to lift one side of the cap on the tone control for the test.

That's the idea!

If you use the 7-10 range and it's too dark for you there with a 47 then put a 22 in

A slight drop of treble can be achieved by rolling the vol knob off a little, which is why I prefer linear volume controls. My vol can be at 5 when yours would be 8, which means I have 5-10 to roll off the very top end tone, it is a subtle effect.

The 250k log doesn't actually start doing anything much until it drops to about 120k which is around the 8 mark, 9-10 doesn't do anything very much with any value capacitor. Using a different value capacitor just shifts the slope line a couple of notches on the knob to either side.

A 100nF seems to work very nicely for me on a P/J bass 250k log tone knob.

Btw as far as capacitors are concerned,
a 47 is a 50 is a 47 is a 50 and
a 22 is a 20 is a 22 is a 20 ...

Not according to Vishay. The 715P range go to 0.47μF

"Tend to..."

The polypropylene range goes down further and the polyester goes up further.
We tend to use polypropylene for pF capacitors and polyester for nF and electrolytics for µF

"Tend to" - rule of thumb stuff.

Check the prices?
If you want polypropylene in the upper µF range, you start paying extra money for no apparently good reason, we are not dealing with RF in the guitar, and we do not need self-healing capacitors that can cope with high voltage breakdown.

To paraphrase my colleague from Colorado; "Life was too short to worry" so for me a .033 cap solved that issue by splitting it right down the middle (almost). :mrgreen:

FWIW it worked for me Bubba and I saved the cost of the wire an alligator clips, LOL. Besides I figured that if I paid for that nice chrome knob on my tone pot and the tone controls on my amp I should at least get my money's worth from them. :wink:

:mrgreen:


did that on my lastest partscaster with the Keystones, just for giggles...it has a "subtle" effect on tone when when dialed down...:wink:

http://ericlightborn.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

Be nice to the horse. A good necropsy will provide plenty of info.

Electrons don't care what type of capacitor you have. Yes, the value matters (0.022μF, 0.047μF etc) and some are made to tighter specifications than others but that's about it.

Yeah they do! You know why? Because I told them so :mrgreen:

Just got a Tele and the guy I bought it from said it's .047 orange drop cap for the tone control is "better" than other caps. Is that true?

ALL that matters with "tone caps" for passive guitar circuits is the value, tolerance and build. NOTHING ELSE matters. do not waste money on expensive guitar signal caps. you may find, as most do, that a simple .022uf tone pot cap will yield a better range of mud tones than a .047uf cap.

....

easy . Tele brite 22
Tele smooth 47

easy ...

tele smooth = .022uf
tele mud city = .047uf

:mrgreen:

....

I do notice diferences between different types of capacitors with aproximate value. I could swear that there is a sweet SPOT where is more noticeable when the tone is almost totally rolled off.

It may be just my mind tricking me, but I like to make myself believe that there's some magic beyond science in the equation.

I use a old paper in oil rated at .027uf (value may have drifted) it works for me, I experimented a few different ones but always landed on this little one.

:mrgreen:

I do notice diferences between different types of capacitors with aproximate value. I could swear that there is a sweet where is more noticeable when the tone is almost totally rolled off.

It may be just my mind tricking me, but I like to make myself believe that there's some magic beyond science in the equation.

I use a old paper in oil rated at .027uf (value may have drifted) it works for me, I experimented a few different ones but always landed on this little one.

:mrgreen:

there is no viable difference to "tone" between like value, tolerance and build caps. check the cap values with a good meter - yer more likely to find that's the reason for any tone shifting your ears pick up. for the most part, it's pure placebo effect. i'll wager any amount of money that no one can reliably discern a passive guitar tone cap difference between precise valued caps of different build. all of this stuff (and i'm being kind) is just more guitar myth that seems to be getting more perpetuated as the decades roll by.

....

Gee, what is ...
... the effect of different types of caps on phase shift in complex, harmonically rich AC waveforms!)

Gee, what is ...

http://russelldavies.typepad.com/planning/russ_bottle.jpg

HTH :razz:

Rob is absolutely dead on.

Except he's wrong.

:razz:

Seriously - the POT has a much more significant affect on how the tone control operates and what comes out than the cap - but having built/modded these planks since the early '70's I have noticed VERY minor differences in the rate at which some tone caps will roll of highs, assuming the pot is the EXACTLY the same one and all wires in the control cavity, pickups etc used to compare are the same (ones).

As previously etched in stone, a passive tone control is a "subtractive" device and boosts nothing - ALL it can do is remove something. Different values remove different amounts of high frequencies - and different pots (even identical models from the same maker) may differ slightly in the "taper" (or speed, or linearity...i.e. how smoothly it works)of the control's action. Some start fast and slow down; soe start slow and then roll off the treble all at once; some are very linear and smooth.

As far as the actual caps go, 99% of players cannot hear the diference between, say, a $.15 ceramic disc and a $50 gold filigreed paper-in-oil cap made of unobtanium wrapped in rice paper from a "green" farm in a specific province of Thailand.

That being said - the other 1% can sometimes recognize something as "off" when disc caps are used. Without being told. Maybe they're just clairvoyant, because in reality it does not matter - disc, orange drop, some .047 of unknown type you found at an electronics swap meet....

...but years ago I noticed that the crappy .047uf "turd" caps I was yanking out of Fender amps to improve the sound seemed a little more linear and consistent than other types. So I hoarded every one I could get my hands on. I prefer the slightly larger rolloff and action of a .068 with most single coils, but when I install P-90's I dip into the turd-drawer, as there just seems to be a smidgen of better control, especially if I use 500k pots (which I generally prefer).

As far as cap values go, Fender initially used .1uf (which are really fun for "wah type effects), then moved to .047 when few players used what was at first called the "preset bassy tone" - then somehow everyone seemed to want "bright" Teles and Fender moved to .022uf to limit how little treble could be rolled off. Unless told otherwise I remove those and install at least .047/.05's in everything, and .068's and higher for players who actually KNOW how to use tone controls (why does it seem most Tele players might as well weld the darned things on "10"?).

Summary - there are no rules. Use whatever you want that will fit. And if you want some real fun, get capacitance "decade box" that has 15-20 different caps inside, wire it in place of the cap and try all of them to discover the real difference.

Nice reply Silverface, in my case it may just be a faulty old cap that it happens to mess with my electronics... and I happen to like. :)

I think what's going on with the "turd" caps is that, since they don't seem to let all the ultra-high frequencies through- which means they sound muddy as a signal cap in a guitar amp, they don't let those ultra-high frequencies through to ground when used in a tone control circuit. So you get "bright mud" when you roll them off.

right on SF ... which is why i either make all "tone" pots no-load, or ditch the buggers all together ... :razz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/frettech/gfs2.jpg