Help - Replacing My Gotohs - MiM Muddy Waters Tele

Hey

Asking a bit of advice to save some time and postage.

My tuning is a bit unstable on my Muddy Waters Telecaster, I think the ping Gotohs may be to blame, so wish to swap them out for the real thing.

Can I just drop in a set of "real" Gotohs (no bushings etc), the Gotohs I've seen have "vintage" and assorted serial numbers - I worked out that 6 in-line were necessary :oops: but any other advice appreciated.

I guess mine are Pings due to the pinhole and slightly protruding machinehead stub.... pics below ..... thanks in advance:

Yeah, FMIC website says the Muddy machine heads are 47912000 and if so, those are Ping Splits.

The OD on the bushings (and the bore in the headstock) is a little larger than real Gotohs use. But the kicker is, the ID of the Ping bush is a bit smaller than the Gotohs.

So to switch from Pings to Gotohs, you will need 10.0 mm conversions for AND a set of the Gotohs AND and a reamer to slightly enlarge this intermediate headstock hole. Irwin sells a "Hansen" reamer for under $ 10 which all "real" hardware stores tend to stock.

Another choice is to replace the Pings with WD Kluson Splits. Check KevinB's posts for the details on this but I am told the existing bushes can be kept; that's easier, and I'm told the WD Kluson is a real nice split shaft tuner.

I was kinda thinking the Muddy had Gotohs but I hadn't gotten a look at one in so long, I could never confirm or deny. I can't quite see on your guitar. This is what the Gotoh splits look like:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/Bubbanov/20JUNE122009.jpg

Don't blame me that the machines are not aligned, FMIC did that.

I have a slightly different experience with my MIM Classic 50s and 60s neck, both of which have the Ping/Kluson style tuners. The stock bushings are too small for Gotoh replacements. The bushings that come with the WD bushings were slightly too small, and would fall out of the hole. I've found that the bushings that come stock with the Gotohs will fit into the hole, altough they do require some pressure, It's a snug fit, but I use pliars for pressure, and just put a washcloth over the headstock to protect the finish.

I've read alot of varrying info on this topic, but this is what I've come to know based on my experience.

Cheap digital calipers anyone?

If the existing Pings have 6mm shafts then the Gotoh SD91HAP will fit as the HAP versions are 6mm shaft unlike the standard SD91 which are the wider 6.35mm (¼").
The same applies for the Gotoh locking versions (SDS510)
The downside is they are not splits:cry:

Edit
The Wilkinson vintage types from Guitar Fetish are 6mm and split.

First off, what do you mean by the tuning being unstable? The first culprit is usually the nut. Make sure that's sorted first before you go through the hassle and expense of changing out the keys.

The Ping Klusons have worked just fine for me.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/Bubbanov/20JUNE122009.jpg[/IMG]

Don't blame me that the machines are not aligned, FMIC did that.


Was that a Monday morning install after the Super Bowl?:smile:

First off, what do you mean by the tuning being unstable? The first culprit is usually the nut. Make sure that's sorted first before you go through the hassle and expense of changing out the keys.

The Ping Klusons have worked just fine for me.

Basically it keeps going out of tune, across the board, but especially GBE - its not environmental, strings, saddles, bridge and neck are steady etc so I guess that leaves the tuners, which I blamed since I don't have either Pings or the problem on any other of my guitars.

I'll check the nut and change out the strings, check the winding etc .......... thanks.

Thanks for all relevent comments and advice, any further experiences / opinion would be welcome.

This is what the Gotoh splits look like:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/Bubbanov/20JUNE122009.jpg

Don't blame me that the machines are not aligned, FMIC did that.

Thanks for the info BB.

The ping shafts protrude at the bottom of each casing, otherwise look similar.

If you don't have lots of heavy use out of those Pings, unless your Muddy has a defective batch, those Ping splits should be good enough.

I mean, I prefer the Gotoh splits enough to wanna replace the Pings, but the Pings are better IMO than most tuners out there on guitars today. By 2006 (your Muddy's build date) Pings were pretty nicely made.

The nut slots are the right place to focus your attention right now, I suspect.

Basically it keeps going out of tune, across the board, but especially GBE - its not environmental, strings, saddles, bridge and neck are steady etc so I guess that leaves the tuners...

The nut slots are the first thing to check like Garret and Boris and others have been saying. When you tune up, do the strings make a ping sound from catching in the nut slot and then suddenly breaking loose before moving? If you do a behind-the-nut bend, does the string come all the way back to pitch or does it hang up and stay a little bit sharp? After you've got the string in tune, if you bend a note does it come back flat when you release it?

Do you lube the nut slots when you restring? Try at least some dry pencil lead (graphite) and if that helps then you can be confident that the guitar can benefit from a tech opening up the nut slots with the proper nut slot files.

I used to swap tuners out all the time, but then I realized that the real features of a set of tuning machines are how smooth they feel when turning them and how easy they are to restring. We're not talking about heavy-metal dive bomb tremolo guitars with locking tuners.

Is the high E tuner shaft bent? It appears so in the supplied pics, but it could be an optical illusion. While not impossible, I don't really think that the rest of the tuners would be affected by a blow bad enough to bend the shaft on the high E, but stranger things have happened. It may explain the problems on the high E though.(?) I have Gotoh locking Klusons on my Teles and feel as though they are the best things around.

fasteddie455

First off, what do you mean by the tuning being unstable? The first culprit is usually the nut. Make sure that's sorted first before you go through the hassle and expense of changing out the keys.

The Ping Klusons have worked just fine for me.

I agree. I have a Muddy tele and there's nothing wrong with those tuners. Look at the nut, proper string installation, saddles, etc. I don't like those bent string trees, I replaced mine with a round one; I think it looks and works better. Also, what strings are you using and what guage?

Don't know if it will help, but I like to wind as much string on the shaft post as possible, which is frowned upon by a lot of techs. I think the extra windings increase tuning stability and the break angle helps me too. Anytime a tech restrings for me and does it their way I have to completely change the strings because of instability and fret buzz.

Another thing I firmly believe in is stretching/tugging of the strings.

The neck screws can also be loose and the extra play can make you sharp or flat. Humidity and sudden temp changes also.

Also, and this was a big revelation for me, watch your left hand that frets the chords and your right arm/elbow and try to keep them from leaning or pulling on the guitar. Pull your elbow slightly away while you are playing so it is not pulling your guitar out of tune from the weight.

I find that after a few hours of not playing, sometimes my guitar is slightly sharp. Just a quick tug on each string followed by a tuning up to pitch is all that is needed. After a day or so, I always tug and stretch before I do anything else until after tugging there is little or no change in the pitch of the string.

I use Murrays Beeswax (applied with a toothpick and cleaned up with cotton swabs) in my nut, string tree, and in the grooves of my saddles. I've had one jar I bought at a drugstore and it is still going strong years later. Much cheaper than other stuff. This works to eliminate excess friction and binding, as well as early string breakage from metal-to-metal contact.

If you have stock cheap smooth brass saddles and the strings have burred notches in them, I would recommend taking fine sandpaper and sanding over the burrs and notches until smooth after every string change. Also the screw holes on a lot of the cheap brass saddles will catch the string and cause sitar harmonics and who knows what other problems.

My solution was pre-grooved saddles with beeswax.

Now, if you have changed your strings very often and gig regularly, then it is quite possible your tuners are on the way out. They are extremely sensitive to the angle and force with which you wind them, as there is only a teflon washer that is bushed up against the gear. IMO they are all very brittle. You can tell if they are spent if there is no play whatsoever in the gear ratio. The G string is an early one to go, because of the extra tension, as well as the 5th and 6th string tuner. Also check the screws that fasten them to the headstock. They loosen up over time also.

The WD Klusons look great, but I do not think they are made any better performance-wise. I just had some fun with them last week. You would do yourself a favor to measure your pegholes before ordering, as there are many discrepancies and a lot of misinformation on company websites about fit and conversion bushings.

Thanks for all the tips above; I guess I'm gonna have to strip it down, check the nut, graphite it, make sure the neck is set, restring, reset neck once tension is on etc.

Now, if the movers would only deliver my Pitchblack ........... :rolleyes:

Don't know if it will help, but I like to wind as much string on the shaft post as possible, which is frowned upon by a lot of techs. I think the extra windings increase tuning stability and the break angle helps me too. Anytime a tech restrings for me and does it their way I have to completely change the strings because of instability and fret buzz.



I think initial string preparation and loading is the single most essential step or group of steps.

I do use extra winds on the D and G strings, but not so much on the other 4. The reason extra is used on the D and G is a sort of poor mans second string tree. The diameter of the E and A strings is such that just a couple rotations is more than enough to get the right break angle. But on the B and little E strings, these strings are so tiny, it'd take way too many rotations to really get that string low on the post - better to rely on the string tree first and most. No, it is the 2 in the middle, where if you coil the string very carefully down and down the post and don't overlap, you'll get the right blend of a nice break point together with a very stable coil of string at the post.

Something to think about: The works of each tuning machine inside is IDENTICAL. Regardless of which guage of string it will be managing. The machines have to be stout enough to handle a .056 E string (and the "F" or trapezoids are not, IMO) and this same mechanical advantage just about overwhelms the tiny .010 E strings. If you drop a whole mess of coils around that little E tuning post, it isn't gonna be optimal, stability wise. There's just too much slop in the system, and the works of the machine is just not engineered to "take back" that slop.

But maybe we're talking about doing the same thing pretty much, just describing it in different ways. But 2 posts worth of surplus length for the B and little E strings is absolutely the most I ever use, even though I cut the D string at almost 3 posts long and the G string (whether wound or not) more than 3 posts, closer to 3.5 posts long.

Don't waste your money and time,there are no "bad" tuners today and the Pings are more than decent tuners.

Check your nut and your stringing technique,these are the culprits 99,9% of the time.