Newb Finishing ?s - Mahogany

Ok, I have a hunk of mahogany in the shape of a Telecaster. And another in the shape of a guitar neck. And I'm hoping to have a go at finishing them (probably tung oil, possibly stained as well - but leaning towards wipe on stains/finishes) but I'm totally clueless about finishing. I spent a chunk of time looking at some of the finishing mahogany threads on here, but I became about as confused as I was enlightened. So, I know my questions have probably been answered here before, but looking through the various threads I just became very muddled. Forgive my repetition.

So, here are my initial questions.

First, do I need to seal the mahogany? And if so, with what? If I'm going to use (polymerized) tung oil for the final coats, would that be a good sealer? Which leads me to:

Second, do I need to grain fill? While I know that technically I don't have to, will putting a sealer coat on give me an idea how much the final coats will sink into the pores? And, what do I use for grain-filler, particularly if I want to stain this into something like the cherry-ish red of an SG. (Am pondering not staining - but can I stain it later if I leave it natural for now?) And, what to use for grain filler. I marched down to my local Lee Valley (a gardening and woodworking chain) and they didn't really have anything. (I'm told Gibson uses black colored stuff) I know about another place that would have black grain filler, but I think the smallest they have is about a liter (4 cups-ish). If I'm just doing one guitar, how much of this stuff do I need?

Third, stain. If I'm using tru or tung oil, can I use a water-based stain?

Fourth, I'm thinking of using (polymerized) tung oil as the final finish. Because it's wipe-on, and I can get it around the corner at Lee Valley. Any reason I should rethink that, as a complete newb at this?

Ok, I do have some other questions, but let's leave it at that for now. I'm just not sure how to get started and I'm hoping you can help!

Thanks,
Geoff

If you are going for an oil finish, you don't have to seal it or grain fill it, if that is what you are going for. To me, an oil finish looks ok without grain filling. If you wanted a mirror shine finish, unfilled grain would not look good and would be a distraction. Personally, I like mahagony filled. It has so many large pores it looks incomplete if it's not filled. There is a water based filler called Timbermate that comes in a variety of colors. It is easier to work with than something oil based. It comes in a nice red mahagony color or ebony if you want the contrast. You will need to seal it though to stablize it. You can use spray can sander sealer that you can find fairly easily. The sander sealer will raise the grain so you can sand it back smooth. Watco Danish oil also makes a mahagony oil finish that will finish your project and add some color to it evenly. I have used it and it's a good product. You will probably have to order the Timbermate but you might find the Watco locally. I have never used it with Timbermate so I don't know how well it will set it.
Good luck and have fun. Post some pictures of your project as it develops.

With an oil finish, I would finish sand 15, 220, 400, 800. Then wipe on the tung oil in NUMEROUS thing coats with a lint free cotton rag. Letting it dry good between coats. No sealer or filler necessary.

For a flat, wet glass look.

Finish sand to 220
Sealer
Grain filler - I have been using dry wall mud with great success lately.
Sealer
Clear lacquer
Dry
wet sand
Buff
Wax


mohoghany - I think it has a sealer coat on it at this point.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm308/coltwknight/Build%20X%204/2012-04-18201140.jpg

You can use Polymerized Tung Oil Sealer from LV and you can also tint it with an oil based stain.
To grain fill, first seal/stain the wood and let dry at least 24 hours. Pour some oil on the body and sand with 220 with the grain, re-wetting the surface whenever it dries, and raise a slurry of oil/wood dust, working it into the pores of the wood. Wait about 20 minutes then wipe it off across the grain and let dry overnight and repeat again if needed.
Water based stain is ok as long as you don't use it to tint and it's fully dried before you apply the oil.
Tung oil is ok as long as it's the polymerized stuff.

Personally I think mahogany needs a full film thickness finish (which Tru-oil can do) as opposed to an 'in the wood' type oil finish suitable for a more wear resistant woods (e.g. rosewood, goncalo alves, etc.)

And once you go with a film surface you might as well grain fill. Open pores look good with matte finish, but not with glossy surfaces IMO.

I'm also partial to the appearance of natural mahogany. It looks great and really simplifies the finishing process.

Stains and such are for making inferior wood look good. Paint is for hiding screw ups... I'm guessing you paid a pretty penny for that body, might as well show it off.

If you are going for an oil finish, you don't have to seal it or grain fill it, if that is what you are going for. To me, an oil finish looks ok without grain filling. If you wanted a mirror shine finish, unfilled grain would not look good and would be a distraction. Personally, I like mahagony filled. It has so many large pores it looks incomplete if it's not filled. There is a water based filler called Timbermate that comes in a variety of colors. It is easier to work with than something oil based. It comes in a nice red mahagony color or ebony if you want the contrast. You will need to seal it though to stablize it. You can use spray can sander sealer that you can find fairly easily. The sander sealer will raise the grain so you can sand it back smooth. Watco Danish oil also makes a mahagony oil finish that will finish your project and add some color to it evenly. I have used it and it's a good product. You will probably have to order the Timbermate but you might find the Watco locally. I have never used it with Timbermate so I don't know how well it will set it.
Good luck and have fun. Post some pictures of your project as it develops.

Found out that Home Hardware (local hardware chain) sells timbermate. Will see if they carry the ebony one.

Cheers,
Geoff

Grain filler - I have been using dry wall mud with great success lately.


Rhomco also mentioned using wall patch as a grain filler. Dry wall mud dries to a grey white. Do you add anything to color it? I've been too chicken to try it myself.

Rhomco also mentioned using wall patch as a grain filler. Dry wall mud dries to a grey white. Do you add anything to color it? I've been too chicken to try it myself.

Here you go (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/finely-finished/313712-yet-another-grain-fill-thread.html)

Ok, ebony timbermate has been ordered.

So, I guess I'm grain filling. With the timbermate. Will give the excess to my guitar tech as he's doing a Les paulish kinda thing but he doesn't have any experience doing mahogany either.

So, sealer before grain filling? And, with what? Looks like I'll need to pop by Lee Valley and load up on some stuff.

The drywall mud method looks doable too. As in, hey - that looks like I could do it!

Thanks all,

Geoff

Ok, ebony timbermate has been ordered.
Geoff

Geoff, where did you order the Timbermate?

Geoff, where did you order the Timbermate?

Walked over to my local Home Hardware. They didn't have any in stock but they looked it up, and told me it should be in early next week.

So, if you have a local Home Hardware, you should be able to do the same. I'm not sure if they'll ship online or not. But you can find it on their website.

Cheers,
Geoff

Thanks Geoff.

The other oil finish that I think looks great on mahogany is Danish oil, which Watco also has in a "red mahogany" flavor. It looks great if you have the patience and time.

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb325/tiskit86/LesTele/DSC_0906.jpg

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb325/tiskit86/LesTele/DSC_0910.jpg


Here's the steps I took after sanding up to 220:

1. Seal w/ a couple of coats of amber shellac - it brings out the natural red in the mahogany.
2. Allow to dry and level shellac coat w/ 000 or 0000 steel wool. Use paper towel with naphtha or a tack cloth to get the steel wool shavings off.
3. Wipe on a coat of danish oil
4. Wait 20 minutes
5. Wipe off the danish oil w/ a lint free cloth (wipe fairly hard so you only leave a very, very thin coat of oil.
6. Wait 24 hours
7. Gently scuff/level again w/ steel wool and clean off the shavings.
8. Repeat w/ the coat of danish oil, wait 20 min, rub it off, wait 24 hours, repeat.


After about 7-10 days you will notice the danish oil finish become more glossy and deeper. You can stop then or do a few more coats, whichever suits you.

Let it dry a few days or a week, and then buff, wax. etc.

As you can see by the neck picture, I didn't grain fill. If you want, you can wet sand w/ the danish oil about halfway through the process, and use that process (creates a slurry) to fill the grain. After which, I'd wait at least 3 days before starting to apply the rest of the coats. Or you can grain fill at the start which it sounds like you are probably going to do.

Ok,

Timbermate is in town but got sent to wrong store. Will pick up on the weekend hopefully.

My current plan is:

Sand to 220 (ok, did that today, taped off the fingerboard, etc.)
Stain (will see what Lee Valley has. I'd like to get into the Cherry SG ballpark, but what I can see there is either too dark, or very bright. Not sure what I'll do).
Grain fill. Yes, when I sand this I expect to mess with the first coat of stain a bit. Read about this technique on the Erlewine repair book. Anybody out there tried it. Also, if I mess up the stain, this may help cover it up a bit.
Stain again.
Clear coats (something wipe on, but not sure what at this point).

Have I left out any steps?

The Erlewine book also suggests "pre-soaking" the end grains before applying stain, as they tend to soak up more stain. Does that sound like a good idea? Is plain water sufficient? Do I let it dry first, or apply the stain while it still appears wet?

Thanks again!

Have been a few other posts here in the last couple weeks re: finishing mahogany, working with tru oil etc. There's this one too: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/finely-finished/290380-how-achieve-sg-heritage-cherry-type-finish-stain-tru-oil.html

Cheers,
Geoff

Well, body and neck are much more red than an hour or so ago. Seemed to go ok. I used a brush.

One question: the sides of the body are quite purpleish. I did wet the sides before I applied the stain, but I'm not sure how wet they really were by the time I got the stain on (they appeared pretty much dry). Is the purple because more stain was soaked up there?

Anyhow, I'm not too worried about it. I did take a few before and after pics (forgot to get the neck before) and I'll put them up some time in the next day or three. Hopefully grain filling tomorrow or Sunday.

Cheers,
Geoff

The sides probably did soak up more stain. I am not familiar with Erlewine's pre-soak. Did he say to use water? I don't do well with stain myself. When I do use stain, I use a rag instead of a brush. I have more control that way but that could be because I am sloppy with a brush.
Post some pics if you can. Everyone here appreciates pictures of what everyone else is into!

The sides probably did soak up more stain. I am not familiar with Erlewine's pre-soak. Did he say to use water? I don't do well with stain myself. When I do use stain, I use a rag instead of a brush. I have more control that way but that could be because I am sloppy with a brush.
Post some pics if you can. Everyone here appreciates pictures of what everyone else is into!

Yeah, Erlewine suggests water.

Ok, a few pics of before:

And here's some after the initial stain coat. It's actually a little more purple than the photos suggest. You can really see it on the sides. It's a water-based aniline dye. The instructions suggested mixing 1 oz dye to a quart of water. I measured out about a 1/4 oz of the dye (which used about 90% of the package) with a cup of water to get this. If I want to get a bit more red/ less purple do you think I should try watering it down a little, or making it more concentrated. What about just adding another coat? Any suggestions welcome.
Last pic is after grain filling with ebony timbermate.

Cheers,
Geoff

Hit a bit of a bump in the road. After grain filling, I applied another coat of stain and a white powder-like substance showed up after it dried. (I have started a separate thread re: that). It seems to rub off though - not sure what caused it (perhaps a reaction between the stain and the timbermate??) or whether to plow ahead and start the tung oil.

I'm going to give the stain a couple more days to see if any more whitish spots appear. If it is just a surface thing though, it could be ok.

Will try to get a couple more photos in the next day or two - I think it is looking really good once the powdery bits are wiped off.

Cheers,
Geoff

Update:
Well, decided to wipe away/ light sand the whitish powdery bits as best I could and forge ahead with the tung oil (I have the polymerized stuff).

I'm three coats in now - doing one a day or so.

It's looking a bit streaky in spots on the back and I have a few little bumps/bubbles on the side of the headstock. i'm assuming because I put a pretty heavy coat on my first go round (tried using a brush - have moved to a rag for subsequent applications. Should I be worried about that, and if so, do I knock it back with a light sand or some steel wool?

How much should I worry about a few bits of fluff/ dust?

I'm planning on hitting with a few more coats. Not sure how many more.

Cheers,
Geoff

8 coats now, I think.

Any advice on the last couple coats or so would be appreciated.

I took a bit of steel wool to it a few coats ago. Anything else I should be doing?

After I put the final coat on, how long should I wait before I bolt it together?

Cheers,
Geoff

And, here it is bolted together.

Still waiting on black knobs. I borrowed the lovely Rutters ones from my Esquire for the time being.

It still feels a bit tacky/ sticky, particularly in hot and humid weather. I probably put too thick a coat on at first and/or didn't give it enough time to penetrate before putting subsequent coats on. Seems to be getting better. I think a little more time will do the trick.

Anyhow, looks great (wish I'd spent a little bit more time and effort to get the interior of the F hole done properly - had I known it would turn out this well I probably would have), and sounds awesome with Wolfetone P90s.

Cheers,
Geoff

That looks awesome! Thanks for the updates. I'll use a similar technique as you.