Trends of P&W Guitarists

This applies to most musicians, not just guitarists. But I was thinking... over the last 10 years there has been a trend... the opportunity for playing out in a club or bar has declined tremendously, and the opportunity for playing in a church worship band has increased greatly.

Has this been your personal experience? Did you used to play out a lot in the "secular" world, and now your only playing happens on Sunday AM? And if so, what made you make that change? Your own desire, or simply taking the opportunities where they come?

Just curious.

Short answer . . . Yep!

For guitar, yes in my area. There is a lot of opportunities for good drummers though, both in churches and playing out in general.

in my area, there are only a few bars that accept bands with electric guitars. most bars hire acoustic solo acts or duos (edit: or DJs). when "contemporary" services became popular it opened the door for 1 or 2 electric players, at least, per church. I think at least 12 churches around town have contemporary service, over 2x the number of bars that bring in electric acts.

I've never played in a secular group. Over the last couple of years I've played out at an open mic night at a local bar on a handful of occasions (acoustic and vocals) but other than that I've been playing in church for about 15 years. I'd say that in general things are more 'electric' in church these days, giving more opportunities for electric guitar.

I have never played in clubs (not knocking anyone who has). I have played in church, with gospel groups, at nursing homes, at VA Hospitals, at many bluegrass festivals. I have and still use both elctric and acoustic. This doesn't count all of the impromptu jam sessions that my friends and I throw together.

That's a real good point. Church seems to have the most Live music of any community.
For the last 25 years I've played everywhere. And I've seen numerous bar musicians become church musicians - but they don't usually last long in church. Too many rules I guess.

Many years ago I was disappointed that church musicians were all inferior to people playing in the local pub. Many church musicians seem to get just good enough to go through the motions Sunday morning and never really develop fully on their instrument. In the last few years i've seen a change. Church players are getting serious.
At the moment I enjoy jamming on Chorus's more than going through the motions of recreating tired old classic Rock and Pop songs for the local drunks.

But with the never ending rules and technology of modern churches; pretty soon no-one will have any fun playing there. Musics got to breathe.

But with the never ending rules and technology of modern churches; pretty soon no-one will have any fun playing there. Musics got to breathe.

I think there is lots of reasons to hope. Trends are not always logical. The trend in P&W to silent stages and amp modeling, brand of guitar, etc. are not always based on logic, or real musical reasoning. A lot of it is fad and fashion, so you in your 25 years have had to see lots of trends come and go. I remember when silent stage was really being pushed, and IMO/E it was not market driven so much as it was vendors doing a lot to create a market. It worked. Music in the church is just as susceptible to marketing as any other genre. Now we all use the same style of lighting, stage arrangements, IEMs, etc. Things look better, and arguably sound better. But is the worship better because of it?

Here is why we can remain positive through all these trends. We remain faithful to the calling, and play through the cycles. No worries... some "new thing" will arise, create a following and a buzz, and everyone will be copying that in no time.

In the meantime, to me, playing live P&W is better than playing the secular gigs. I have done both, they are both great musical outlets, both fun, but I wouldn't trade my playing/singing at 2-3 services a week for anything, even while I bite my tongue sometimes that I need to pull the Line 6 stuff out and leave the tube amp at home. :twisted: Ok so God is still working on me on that one.... I'm a WIP no doubt.

I've always been antipathetic about joining a bar band, so after hearing my brother-in-law's church band at a Southern Baptist service down in North Carolina I sorta started thinking maybe this is the way to go...
And if I thought of it that means zillions of others already have.

Many years ago I was disappointed that church musicians were all inferior to people playing in the local pub. Many church musicians seem to get just good enough to go through the motions Sunday morning and never really develop fully on their instrument. In the last few years i've seen a change. Church players are getting serious.

Its not necessarily that they are getting serious, but church leaders who are (edit) sympathetic to visitors and Sunday morning spectators who want pro quality music, so the church hires regional pros or sets a pro standard that amateurs have to meet before they can serve in the church. I went to a conference about worship leading and the hosting church talked about how they pay up to $300 a weekend per professional musician. To me that calls into question the validity of the ministry vs. business/marketing. But that's just me.
In the past ministry was built on understanding that we are all supposed to know each other, and with love superseding everything else, accept each others' flaws and shortcomings. With business taking over ministry, distraction-free entertainment value in services has become more important than commitment and character of servants. That may be why you notice they don't last long in church.

I've pretty much decided I will always be playing guitar in some kind of band. First, serving on P&W at church. I know there's a possibility that falls through (they change style, there are 3 other players way better than me, etc) so I'm thinking I would do something outside of church. So second would be a band that will still glorify Him. If not that, then some other kind of band just for fun.

In Philadelphia nobody goes to church.. but the bar scene is growing and thriving!

Nope!

Started out playing in church, played in a contemporary band outside of my church...
But that's about it.

I'm probably not good enough to play in a bar band....


yet.

At worship, you have a guaranteed, captive audience of people who are there to hear and sing music. The performance is appreciated, and so is talent.

In bars you have hit or miss crowds, over-zealous consumption of adult beverages, indifference to the music and the performers and on and on.

There are a lot of folks of my generation who used to play in bars. Now they play in Church. I can honestly say most of them are happier now for a number of reasons

In bars you have hit or miss crowds, over-zealous consumption of adult beverages, indifference to the music and the performers and on and on.

I could say the same of some services I've played in (except for the alcohol)!

Two different animals all together. Times change and so does the method for outreach in ministry. Thats the reason for increased opportunity for musicians in church. The logic behind it is, or should be outreach. Mainstream chritianity has evolved and embraced contemporary music as an outreach. Wasn't always that way. As far as the opportunity diminished in bars/clubs go,I think it depends on the genre you play. Softer, less edged music is just naturally easier for an accoustically challenged building to hold. Ya get a hard rocking band with half stacks and a double bass drummer in and the sonic footprint is much larger. Folks don't always appreciate that. Its all about how much beer the place sells so I guess its diminished some depending on the style of music your taking in.

The logic behind it is, or should be outreach. Mainstream chritianity has evolved and embraced contemporary music as an outreach. Wasn't always that way.

It comes and goes. Wasn't it Bach who used bar tunes with Holy lyrics to get congregations to sing along? Whether generational or educational, secular music styles are revered then dismissed, then revered again. Its like school. Preschool students learn things that are later in life viewed as childish or theoretically good but ultimately incorrect in the "real world." Secular music is used in preschool for Christians (i.e. seeker-sensitive churches or church for the unchurched), but over time the heart sees the music differently. That generation goes on to create P&W based on what their studies have taught them P&W is, and a new generation is brought up on secular music. Worship is revolutionary. Nothing is new under the sun, it just comes back around.

It seems that a lot of my old friends i played in clubs with are now playing in church. Some of the bands put together by them have been very good. I now play in church and love the hours compared to the VFW, American Legion, and clubs. We never made that much in the clubs anyway, after expenses, so playing for free is no problem. Plus it is fun and I feel like I'm helping the younger musicians. Yes, it seems to be a trend.

When I was growing up I learned that the better musicians in my school had developed their performing chops in church. We were kids so there was not any thought of playing in clubs. Although a few became gigging pros there was no SRV among us. That being said I have only been in a club with live music a few times in my life where in some places every corner has a church. Not necessarily with a full band but most do have live music.

Pretty much. this is true, but not because there are not chances to play in rock clubs in Worcester or Boston, but out of a steady gig and family combined-- and you get a good word out of it. I believe it's a chance for me to use God's gifts for him.

I can go either way. I prefer church music, but I also play in secular bands. I'm just waiting for the right contemperary christian band to come along. Until then, it's bars and church. No drinking though, just playing. Most of the secular bands I play in have a christian back ground.

I love playing and seeing everyone together in harmony in the congregation--all ages; some with hands raised, some standing in reverence, some singing every word. No pressure, just freedom. Much more fulfilling to me than to have people in some dingy room not paying attention. the group participation is really important to me. you just don't get that all the time-- especially in bar/club situations. In terms of worship-- I think I like doing it so much because it is a group declaration-- hopefully with lots of energy. you might not agree, but worship is strikingly similar to this in my mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRpTf27WtTM

I love it.

I've mostly played in church since I was a freshman or sophomore in high school. I've never had the opportunity to play in a club but I have played two Battle of the Bands, the first time with most of the same people I played with in the youth worship team, the second time as a guest guitarist/vocalist in another one of my friends bands.

I wouldn't mind playing at clubs once in a while, but I don't have any other members to play with, and its hard to find other musicians with interests in country music in my area.

A couple of the regular guitarists at my church used to play at clubs in their younger years but they no longer have any interest in playing clubs anymore.

SoVeryTired...sorry to hear that.
Our congregations (I play in two different churches) love to hear us and participate with us. Maybe it's because we only play once a month in each. The other three weeks, both churches offer different types of music for worship.
At least in church, they don't yell obscenities at the band if they don't like a song or whatever.

I am "allowed" to play anywhere that my wife and kids are going to be anyways. Sort of limits where that's going to be, eh?

Even in my church, they just started this year with auditions for any new musicians/singers/tech/drama members. I would probably pass the audition now, but 3 years ago when I joined, I'm sure I would not have.

I played out in the 70's. Between the late 70's and 2008, I stopped playing guitar.

I've mostly played in church since I was a freshman or sophomore in high school. I've never had the opportunity to play in a club but I have played two Battle of the Bands, the first time with most of the same people I played with in the youth worship team, the second time as a guest guitarist/vocalist in another one of my friends bands.

I wouldn't mind playing at clubs once in a while, but I don't have any other members to play with, and its hard to find other musicians with interests in country music in my area.

A couple of the regular guitarists at my church used to play at clubs in their younger years but they no longer have any interest in playing clubs anymore.

no club playing for me either. I can't imagine what it's like. I can't even find other guitarists to play with....much less a whole band.

My wife took me away from the clubs and bar gigs about 12 years ago<while we were still in music school<now she is childrens pastor and I get to lead worship <it has been great growing in the Lord.I still get into playing when the Holy Spirit leads us < shure I know I'll never look back> and every time I pick up my Guitar and my children can see me sing and play it's an awesome feeling I could never get that in clubs , I know that every time I play I'm playing for an audience of one < My Creator> and I still do it for free .

no club playing for me either. I can't imagine what it's like. I can't even find other guitarists to play with....much less a whole band.
Same here, I've been trying to get a hold of one of my friends from high school that used to play in the youth worship band with me and see where his interests are at, but he no longer has facebook and he doesn't check myspace. Its a shame because he is a great player and I've heard hes been going through a bit of a rough patch recently.

I love playing and seeing everyone together in harmony in the congregation--all ages; some with hands raised, some standing in reverence, some singing every word. No pressure, just freedom. Much more fulfilling to me than to have people in some dingy room not paying attention. the group participation is really important to me. you just don't get that all the time-- especially in bar/club situations. In terms of worship-- I think I like doing it so much because it is a group declaration-- hopefully with lots of energy. you might not agree, but worship is strikingly similar to this in my mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRpTf27WtTM

I love it.

Wow... lol I would never have expected to see a reference to Minor Threat in here... but I see your point. Actually, my churches youth group has really been emphasizing a theme of how they are "worshiping warriors" (phrase taken from a Jake Hamilton song) who are called to be radical in their expression of worship and love to God. I love how at a Jesus Culture concert people rush the stage. Nobody thinks to crowd surf or form a mosh pit, but everyone wants to be right up there in it.

At my church, we really have a lot of freedom, and people do come right up to the front. Musically, we have freedom to rock and be loud, because we also remain sensitive to when it is time to be sensitive. It is really cool, and much more satisfying to me than just a plain concert gig. Last week I led, and twice in the set I had the congregation take over, once spontaneously singing a chorus during a quiet musical section so that we just played to them for quite a while. The second time we were actually finished with the last song (Break Every Chain), and the congregation started singing again, and we again just accompanied them. Yeah I know, big deal, this happens in great secular concerts too. But we get stuff like this almost every week.

So I guess back to the point of the thread, the things that are happening in P&W are pretty awesome. There is value being placed on musical excellence, and on the ability of the band to being interactive with the congregation. As a guitarist, there isn't a better time than now to be part of P&W, and I enjoy it way more than secular gigs. At church I get worship God through my playing. Not sure I really get to say that playing at the microbrew festival.

Wow... lol I would never have expected to see a reference to Minor Threat in here... but I see your point. Actually, my churches youth group has really been emphasizing a theme of how they are "worshiping warriors" (phrase taken from a Jake Hamilton song) who are called to be radical in their expression of worship and love to God. I love how at a Jesus Culture concert people rush the stage. Nobody thinks to crowd surf or form a mosh pit, but everyone wants to be right up there in it.

At my church, we really have a lot of freedom, and people do come right up to the front. Musically, we have freedom to rock and be loud, because we also remain sensitive to when it is time to be sensitive. It is really cool, and much more satisfying to me than just a plain concert gig. Last week I led, and twice in the set I had the congregation take over, once spontaneously singing a chorus during a quiet musical section so that we just played to them for quite a while. The second time we were actually finished with the last song (Break Every Chain), and the congregation started singing again, and we again just accompanied them. Yeah I know, big deal, this happens in great secular concerts too. But we get stuff like this almost every week.

So I guess back to the point of the thread, the things that are happening in P&W are pretty awesome. There is value being placed on musical excellence, and on the ability of the band to being interactive with the congregation. As a guitarist, there isn't a better time than now to be part of P&W, and I enjoy it way more than secular gigs. At church I get worship God through my playing. Not sure I really get to say that playing at the microbrew festival.

amen brother

SoVeryTired...sorry to hear that.
Our congregations (I play in two different churches) love to hear us and participate with us. Maybe it's because we only play once a month in each. The other three weeks, both churches offer different types of music for worship.
At least in church, they don't yell obscenities at the band if they don't like a song or whatever.

Don't worry, it's not happened recently. But I've played in atmospheres ranging from apathetic to hostile in the past! The congregation in the church I'm part of now really responds to the worship and comes ready to sing - it wasn't always so but we've made a very conscious effort to include and inspire.

Same here, I've been trying to get a hold of one of my friends from high school that used to play in the youth worship band with me and see where his interests are at, but he no longer has facebook and he doesn't check myspace. Its a shame because he is a great player and I've heard hes been going through a bit of a rough patch recently.

Sorry to hear that man. I hope you and him hook up eventually.
In my area/church people are too competitive to get together or share information. It sucks, but what can you do....

In my area/church people are too competitive to get together or share information. It sucks, but what can you do....

Says the former lead pastor of the church I was at, in response to another church asking for a community project partnership, "we have no interest in community participation."

Modern church is seen as business, they won't help other churches who might out perform them. Everything they do must benefit their own church.

Says the former lead pastor of the church I was at, in response to another church asking for a community project partnership, "we have no interest in community participation."

Modern church is seen as business, they won't help other churches who might out perform them. Everything they do must benefit their own church.

May be stretching it a bit, My buddy is a Church Pastor and The President of the Minister's Alliance in the town he is in. Being the "New guy in Town" he tried to contact some Black Ministers to be a part of the Minister's Alliance in the town to do a community wide event... Come to find out there are 2 Minister Alliances in that town one for Black Churches and one for White Churches! :confused:

History says that Black Churches and White Churches in Memphis used to get together once a month back in the late 1940's early 1950's The Hillbillies and The Black Folks and they would Have Huge Worship services! The music they produced was called Vulgar, Hillbilly and Black... Critics hated it, but people Loved it...

A small boy used to attend these service and the type of music he learned in Church he sang on stage.... Anyone know who that lil boy was? Elvis!

I don't think we will ever seen a trend like that again that Produced Rockabilly, Blues, Rock n Roll and such...


Back to my buddy's community, The town is about 60/40 White/Black and both sides are very prejudiced so much that the Churches do not even cooperate, how much are we missing by our limiting God????

Both cultures bring something to music the other one does not have!

In my area/church people are too competitive to get together or share information. It sucks, but what can you do....

This is sad and unfortunately true in lots of places :sad:

My family switched to a new church in town a little over a year ago, and it had nothing to do with something wrong at the prior one. We just believed we were called to move, and I was not recruited or anything (in fact I came as a civilian, not even "trying out" to be on the new church worship team. Things worked out quickly that I was eventually invited). Old friendships kind of evaporated since then :sad: and people I used to jam with weekly just for fun are no longer available.

What sucks for me is I am labeled as the "church XYZ lead guitarist / WL" in our town. It is even how I am introduced to musicians from other churches. I'm just a guitar hack WL, period. I'll happily fill any role at your church, any day, and would happily invite "outsiders" to join me at mine just for special occasions (and I often do, but have very few takers).

So speaking of trends... this seems to be an unfortunate one.

This is sad and unfortunately true in lots of places :sad:

My family switched to a new church in town a little over a year ago, and it had nothing to do with something wrong at the prior one. We just believed we were called to move, and I was not recruited or anything (in fact I came as a civilian, not even "trying out" to be on the new church worship team. Things worked out quickly that I was eventually invited). Old friendships kind of evaporated since then :sad: and people I used to jam with weekly just for fun are no longer available.

What sucks for me is I am labeled as the "church XYZ lead guitarist / WL" in our town. It is even how I am introduced to musicians from other churches. I'm just a guitar hack WL, period. I'll happily fill any role at your church, any day, and would happily invite "outsiders" to join me at mine just for special occasions (and I often do, but have very few takers).

So speaking of trends... this seems to be an unfortunate one.

Wow, it's NOT just my area that has this problem.
Are guitarists that share and collaborate a dying breed nowadays?
I can't even get any of the guitarists I'm friends with on FB to come out and play or even take time out to get together.
Ah well, at least I've got my church...

May be stretching it a bit, My buddy is a Church Pastor and The President of the Minister's Alliance in the town he is in. Being the "New guy in Town" he tried to contact some Black Ministers to be a part of the Minister's Alliance in the town to do a community wide event... Come to find out there are 2 Minister Alliances in that town one for Black Churches and one for White Churches! :confused:

History says that Black Churches and White Churches in Memphis used to get together once a month back in the late 1940's early 1950's The Hillbillies and The Black Folks and they would Have Huge Worship services! The music they produced was called Vulgar, Hillbilly and Black... Critics hated it, but people Loved it...

A small boy used to attend these service and the type of music he learned in Church he sang on stage.... Anyone know who that lil boy was? Elvis!

I don't think we will ever seen a trend like that again that Produced Rockabilly, Blues, Rock n Roll and such...


Back to my buddy's community, The town is about 60/40 White/Black and both sides are very prejudiced so much that the Churches do not even cooperate, how much are we missing by our limiting God????

Both cultures bring something to music the other one does not have!

Wow, that is sad.
Sad but true.
We have some of all people at our church, but it's mostly black. I always find myself wishing that the white members would invite more of their friends so that there would be more people that understand guitar and like it. :oops:
I know that's probably a horrible thing to say, but it's true where I'm from. The black people in my area generally do NOT like/acknowledge/support the guitar as an instrument. Why that is...I don't know. But I'm not the stereotypical black person anyway...*shrug*

Has this been your personal experience?
>>> Yes . . .

Did you used to play out a lot in the "secular" world, and now your only playing happens on Sunday AM?
>>> Bars suck, band mates had super egos in the secular band, which I just cannot deal with their stupidity . . . oh, and I can play three times a week - practice and two services!

And if so, what made you make that change?
>>> Little to no egos, better songs, more camaraderie, the music isn't about anyone in the P&W band . . .

Your own desire, or simply taking the opportunities where they come?
>>> A little of each . . .

Sorry to hear that man. I hope you and him hook up eventually.
In my area/church people are too competitive to get together or share information. It sucks, but what can you do....

Thanks, I hope I can get him to start coming back to church, we need more guitarists that are willing to participate at my church, but there always seems to be a power struggle over control of the music and a lot of the musicians quit because of that.

As for competitiveness I haven't noticed any around me but I could be oblivious to it as well. It a shame that people get competitive about things like that.

Wow, that is sad.
Sad but true.
We have some of all people at our church, but it's mostly black. I always find myself wishing that the white members would invite more of their friends so that there would be more people that understand guitar and like it. :oops:
I know that's probably a horrible thing to say, but it's true where I'm from. The black people in my area generally do NOT like/acknowledge/support the guitar as an instrument. Why that is...I don't know. But I'm not the stereotypical black person anyway...*shrug*
Hate to say it but being in a COGIC church you are facing an uphill battle in attracting white members. Little different from being in an ethnic based Orthodox Church trying to recruit members of other ethnic groups.

My church faces a similar pattarn. Eventhough we are not linked ethnically as a denomination specific congregations tend to be. And as the demographics changed in the local community when someone does visit that one week until recently they would not come back to be the only Chinese face in a church dominated by Nigerians

It comes and goes. Wasn't it Bach who used bar tunes with Holy lyrics to get congregations to sing along? ...

Martin Luther used music from familiar tavern songs to get folks to sing their era's praise and worship music...

Hey folks don't be knockin' the secular world... that's where we're all supposed to be... kickin' it with the unchurched... reachin' out... helpin' hands... not hidin' in some holy arena...

Seriously though, I used to play out, and still could, but the illusions of rockstar left me and now I do what I love. P&W. Oh, we play at the occasional benefit or picnic as Crossfire, our P&W band. But I'll do an open mic nite once in a while too, and play something like What Faith can Do, or East to West, and you know what? No one comes up to me and complains I ruined there beerdrinkin', they come up to me and start talkin' about Jesus and church...

Hate to say it but being in a COGIC church you are facing an uphill battle in attracting white members. Little different from being in an ethnic based Orthodox Church trying to recruit members of other ethnic groups.

My church faces a similar pattarn. Eventhough we are not linked ethnically as a denomination specific congregations tend to be. And as the demographics changed in the local community when someone does visit that one week until recently they would not come back to be the only Chinese face in a church dominated by Nigerians

I guess one would desire to feel a part of the crowd. I've always been on the outside with all races so it's hard for me to fully understand. I realize that I'm wishing on a star hoping that more varied denominations of people come into our church. :sad:

Thighbanez come find me in Heaven. We'll start a band: or at least we'll jam alot. :grin:

I worked as a full time musician "out there" till I got saved. Then I played exclusively in church for 12 years. Sunday mornings, conferences, prayer meetings, recordings, you name it. I was playing some kind of church service 2 or 3 times a week for 12 years.

In 2006 I stopped playing in church for various reasons. One was that there where several young guitarists in our congregation that were pretty good, but who never got to play because I was always doing that. The bigger driver was I felt compelled to take God "outside the box" figuratively and literally.

I still really enjoy a worship service, but for the last few years I've been doing 99% of my playing in bars. Rubbing elbows with those "prostitutes and tax gatherers". Seems someone else did that long ago, I think He is still jazzed about letting those folks know He is there to help them make a great finish in life.

Everybody has a different call. I'm really thankful for the great musicians in an out of church services.

I stumbled upon this P&W forum while exploring the site. Still kinda new to TDPRI.

I used to play with different bands in high school mostly in my friend's garage but had a few gigs here and there. I stopped playing through college and moved to Canada. Lot's happened between then but long story short I ended up in a small church where my wife (who was my girlfriend at the time) went. It was so small that there were not a lot of musicians around. Anyway the opportunity to lead worship came up. After that I think I found my calling.

We left that church after a few years as things sort of fell apart (another long story). I sort of gave up on playing to pursue other interests for a while but have since been asked to join a worship team in a new church we go to as a lead/rhythm guitarist. Seems like God really doesn't want to let me go, and I do enjoy serving Him.

Thighbanez come find me in Heaven. We'll start a band: or at least we'll jam alot. :grin:

Hey, I'm up for some heavenly jaming.

Who's on bass?

I stumbled upon this P&W forum while exploring the site. Still kinda new to TDPRI.

I used to play with different bands in high school mostly in my friend's garage but had a few gigs here and there. I stopped playing through college and moved to Canada. Lot's happened between then but long story short I ended up in a small church where my wife (who was my girlfriend at the time) went. It was so small that there were not a lot of musicians around. Anyway the opportunity to lead worship came up. After that I think I found my calling.

We left that church after a few years as things sort of fell apart (another long story). I sort of gave up on playing to pursue other interests for a while but have since been asked to join a worship team in a new church we go to as a lead/rhythm guitarist. Seems like God really doesn't want to let me go, and I do enjoy serving Him.

Good story. Whatever you can do, do it!

Thighbanez come find me in Heaven. We'll start a band: or at least we'll jam alot. :grin:

Woohoo! I PROMISE you I'm gonna take you up on that one!
:mrgreen:

Hey, I'm up for some heavenly jaming.

Who's on bass?

I'm always more than happy to play bass if there's a need!

I've seen this trend too. I think it proves that God is moving! And my playing, (at least twice a week), at church has been out of my desire to worship God with the gift He created, He gave me, the gift of music. As I've grown closer and deeper with the Lord my desire to play for Him grows. For me it has nothing to do with a "gig", or wanting to play in general. Though less these days it seems, those opportunities are still out there, I just have no desire for them. My only desire is God.

Hey, I'm up for some heavenly jaming.

Who's on bass?

i'll play bass! :razz:

didn't really do bar gigs although I've played bass a couple of times in comedy bar as a sub. it's our drummer's (at the time) regular gig ... he's now a touring/recording pro. but he told me once that he finds it much more challenging to play in the church setting as it covers so many genre!

This applies to most musicians, not just guitarists. But I was thinking... over the last 10 years there has been a trend... the opportunity for playing out in a club or bar has declined tremendously, and the opportunity for playing in a church worship band has increased greatly.

Has this been your personal experience? Did you used to play out a lot in the "secular" world, and now your only playing happens on Sunday AM? And if so, what made you make that change? Your own desire, or simply taking the opportunities where they come?

Just curious.

Live band music of all types has declined severely in Australia in the past twenty years.

Pub music, or bar music as you say, is nothing like it used to be in Australia since the introduction of 'pokies' [slot machines] in most pubs. Our national addiction to gambling is another story.

I was a secular musician/songwriter before coming into ordained ministry, and when the live scene died down, my first path change came through training as a registered music therapist, and then into formal ministry via pastoral ministries in hospitals.

On the church scene, there are not nearly as many big churches here for receiving musical gifts. Further, the culture of professional [paid] music ministry is not part of the usual fabric of church life. My wife, with three church music/theology college degrees, is the professional MD of one of the large Catholic churches here in South Australia but she is one of the rare exceptions in Australia.

There are more big churches like Hillsong here than before, see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_churches_in_Australia

, and many of these are new, but we are only talking about 100,000 total attendees roughly each week in a population of 20 million. This does not equate to many opportunities for guitarists nationally.

I am the professional minister/pastor in one of the largest mainstream protestant denominations here and our musicians nationally are almost exclusively voluntary, although there may be a few exceptions.

I am one of the musicians in our church, all the rest of whom are voluntary, and one of three who play guitar, so we share responsibilities among us on a month to month roster. We have some guitar coverage most weeks, and we try to ensure we have some stronger musicians each week to provide an overall balance.

I have freedom to insert myself into the mix when ever needed depending on the needs of the theme of the day, and sometimes I get to play with the other guitar players which is fun. I do secular playing occasionally as part of our outreach mission but these opportunities tend to be planned long term and are quite specific.

As you might guess, I love my work, and I am really blessed to be able to use all my gifts in God's ministry, and put food on the table too! I am enjoying the best time of my life.

i've been in that situation too, when i decided to play in secular, just to have some experience playing outside the church, but i just found out it's not good to be there. nothing compares playing for His glory. i thank God he restored my joy in music.

(sorry about my english guys) :) God bless you all!

And if so, what made you make that change? Your own desire, or simply taking the opportunities where they come?


Like everything in life, every choice has its ups and downs.

As most of you know, bar band ensembles require a LOT of work: administration, operations, marketing, and human resources (i.e., managing the egos). You get to actually play out every once in a while, and the product is of your own choosing. "Staffing" is tricky: you want to fulfill an artistic vision, but interpersonal issues always seem to interfere.

Church is an interesting trade-off. There's far less room for creativity, thanks to institutional structures (like the order of mass, in my case). However, the human resource constraints are fewer, which means you have to accept just about anyone who asks to join. That's both good and bad. But it IS a regular event that needs no marketing.

Personally, I find that the contacts made through the church music community opens the doors to secular opportunities. A drummer from our church is a hotel manager; on his own initiative, he is organizing a live music night on a real stage in his ballroom facility. A visit to meetup.com got me plugged into the local acoustic guitar/open mic circuit, which actually boasts a couple of good musicians. Drawing from both pools, I've managed to pull together a band to do some country/roots/americana material. And what a bunch we are! A bass player, age 62; drummer (the hotel manager) age 35; a violin player, age 23, and myself (age 50) handling guitar and most vocals.

All this is to say there are different circles to be tapped. The key is to get out of the house and network-- you make your own luck this way.

I used to play in the clubs. As previously mentioned, they've all gone the way of accoustic duos, DJs, karaoke, etc... I don't miss it. As for church, I've always wanted to play but it's hard to get in as they've always had the same musicians since when I was a kid.

Nowadays, I mostly play festivals in the summer and a few shows (concert style/auditoriums - NO BOOZE) from fall to spring. I enjoy the latter as it's easier to connect with the crowd. It just feels more intimate...sorta like church.

been playing over 30 years; much of it in secular groups in bars on the weekends. I don't miss it either. It's a completely different mindset. I much prefer where I am now; it's more relaxed and for the right reason. My past experience (everything from Classic Rock, Metal, C&W, R&B, Soul, even Bluegrass and Jazz, you name it really) helps me bring a lot more flavor to the P & W team and professionalism than I ever would have otherwise. I practiced far more with the secular groups than I ever did on the P & W team which resulted in learning a lot more back in the day which really helps now

May be stretching it a bit, My buddy is a Church Pastor and The President of the Minister's Alliance in the town he is in. Being the "New guy in Town" he tried to contact some Black Ministers to be a part of the Minister's Alliance in the town to do a community wide event... Come to find out there are 2 Minister Alliances in that town one for Black Churches and one for White Churches! :confused:

History says that Black Churches and White Churches in Memphis used to get together once a month back in the late 1940's early 1950's The Hillbillies and The Black Folks and they would Have Huge Worship services! The music they produced was called Vulgar, Hillbilly and Black... Critics hated it, but people Loved it...

A small boy used to attend these service and the type of music he learned in Church he sang on stage.... Anyone know who that lil boy was? Elvis!

I don't think we will ever seen a trend like that again that Produced Rockabilly, Blues, Rock n Roll and such...


Back to my buddy's community, The town is about 60/40 White/Black and both sides are very prejudiced so much that the Churches do not even cooperate, how much are we missing by our limiting God????

Both cultures bring something to music the other one does not have!
Absolutely agree with this. Here in Birmingham today many of us DO get together across the racial and cultural lines for Worship!
For several years I played for the Carlton Reese memorial Unity Choir. Many in that group you will see on the old civil rights films from Birmingham in the marches.
For many years I played for a 6000 + member mega Church that was a VERY mixed congregation. We had a 100 member choir that did mostly Black Gospel then the praise team played mostly modern worship. Some of the stuff that the praise team played was VERY heavy and bordered on metal.
On September 15th of this year on the 49th anniversary of the 16th Street Church Bombing one of the bands I play with kicked off a 12 hour Intersession and Prayer Event in Birminghams historic Kelly Ingram Park where the civil rights marchers in the 1960's gathered and across the street from 16th Street.
You are absolutely right in that there is MUCH that we can learn from each other when we cross the cultural divide and worship together.

Like everything in life, every choice has its ups and downs.

As most of you know, bar band ensembles require a LOT of work: administration, operations, marketing, and human resources (i.e., managing the egos). You get to actually play out every once in a while, and the product is of your own choosing. "Staffing" is tricky: you want to fulfill an artistic vision, but interpersonal issues always seem to interfere.

Church is an interesting trade-off. There's far less room for creativity, thanks to institutional structures (like the order of mass, in my case). However, the human resource constraints are fewer, which means you have to accept just about anyone who asks to join. That's both good and bad. But it IS a regular event that needs no marketing.

Disagree with you big time here! Likely it depends on where you are playing but here in Birmingham most Church worship teams will hand a typical Bar band its HEAD musically!!
Also in my circles most folks in these Praise teams can flat play, there are exceptions and also there are lifestyle requirements that don't need to be discussed on this particular forum. Bottom line where you are your statement might be true but NOT HERE!
No Creativity?? Man in the circle I play in we do hours of improv just flowing on whatever comes with nothing written. Like THIS!
https://www.box.com/shared/x9bzd9cdm8
https://www.box.com/s/hi3so3xhrf4m758wxbvw
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6790839
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=2226621

Hate to say it but being in a COGIC church you are facing an uphill battle in attracting white members. Little different from being in an ethnic based Orthodox Church trying to recruit members of other ethnic groups.

My church faces a similar pattarn. Eventhough we are not linked ethnically as a denomination specific congregations tend to be. And as the demographics changed in the local community when someone does visit that one week until recently they would not come back to be the only Chinese face in a church dominated by Nigerians

Feel you man. I'm a white guy in a 75% black city and most of our Churches are pretty segregated here. I'm fortunate enough to work with in a circle that is VERY diverse but that is the exception rather than the rule. first thing I look at when going into a Church that I have never been is the ethnic make up of the crowd. If it is not diverse I start wondering WHY?
I also understand the COGIC play in a few here locally. It's funny to watch the folks at times when I walk in and set up in particular if I pull THIS out of the case LOL.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/DSC01527.jpg
Changes pretty quick once we crank up though!
psqb9jgJgm0

Feel you man. I'm a white guy in a 75% black city and most of our Churches are pretty segregated here. I'm fortunate enough to work with in a circle that is VERY diverse but that is the exception rather than the rule. first thing I look at when going into a Church that I have never been is the ethnic make up of the crowd. If it is not diverse I start wondering WHY?
I also understand the COGIC play in a few here locally. It's funny to watch the folks at times when I walk in and set up in particular if I pull THIS out of the case LOL.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/DSC01527.jpg
Changes pretty quick once we crank up though!
psqb9jgJgm0

Love the energy from your video clip. I get to sit in and lead worship at a AG church here in Vancouver, WA that's full of the same Holy Ghost vibe!

Disagree with you big time here! Likely it depends on where you are playing but here in Birmingham most Church worship teams will hand a typical Bar band its HEAD musically!!
Also in my circles most folks in these Praise teams can flat play, there are exceptions and also there are lifestyle requirements that don't need to be discussed on this particular forum. Bottom line where you are your statement might be true but NOT HERE!
No Creativity?? Man in the circle I play in we do hours of improv just flowing on whatever comes with nothing written. Like THIS!
https://www.box.com/shared/x9bzd9cdm8
https://www.box.com/s/hi3so3xhrf4m758wxbvw
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6790839
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=2226621


Personally I think its not where you play but who you play with. For example the worship team I am on is very lacking. None of them take time practice and all have different tastes in music. Some like a bluegrass style, others rock, some like country, while the rest contemporary. These different tastes affects the whole because when none of them listen to the same type of music, none of them want to practice the songs they are not into because it isn't their style.

I feel practice should be done at home and rehearsal when you come together however with us rehearsal become practice because none of them pick up their instruments all week and it shows when we get together.

Our worship leader is a good example when it come to playing the older style music like "Because he lives" he does fine however when we play a newer song he'll strums to the syllables of the words. Yes he is suppose to be the rhythm guitar but this goes to show no practice was done. It is my opinion he doesn't care for the newer contemporary style stuff so why try an learn it. On these songs to try and develop some form of rhythm, I will usually move from playing lead to playing rhythm on the electric and hope that he just doesn't play at all. Most of the time though he tries and we clash. (Try playing lead over someone strumming to the syllables).

The list goes on and on our keyboardist steps all over the bass, etc etc etc. Recommendations for more practices was suggested, but the leader is comfortable with everything as is. Because leadership is so poor, it finally got to the point that I did join a band and do play in bars just to play with musicians who take their talent seriously. I don't get drunk, I witness when I can and band members know that God comes before the band. Also I don't play any songs that references God in a bad way. Since joining, I have began to enjoy playing again, learning new stuff and my skills has increase substantially. What I learn I try to bring back to the worship team including sound mixing tips, but it falls on deft ears. (Our volunteer style sound team doesn't show up until Sunday and then tries to make it work).

I believe that God gives us the talent but it is up to us to maintain and polish it. Unfortunately not all believe that way so you end up on teams such a the one I am on. I am sure someone will suggest leaving or that it isn't about the music and I agree but, if the music distracts from worship then it does become about the music. I would love it if the worship team took their talent seriously.

Quabit,

To me your situation is like proverbs 29:18 "without vision (leadership) the people perish"

That's a situation where you may be better off just playing out in your secular band and then just being a part of your church in a different way. Just because we play guitar doesn't mean we must play in the band. At a few churches the band has not been where I was supposed to be and as much as I enjoy it, it's a bigger blessing to server where I'm called instead of where my head says I should go.

Quabit,

To me your situation is like proverbs 29:18 "without vision (leadership) the people perish"

That's a situation where you may be better off just playing out in your secular band and then just being a part of your church in a different way. Just because we play guitar doesn't mean we must play in the band. At a few churches the band has not been where I was supposed to be and as much as I enjoy it, it's a bigger blessing to server where I'm called instead of where my head says I should go.

Snow,

I think you are onto something concerning the vision. I would step away but deep down I truly feel this is where I need to be. Our church is pretty small with less than 60 give or take on a Sunday. Out of them it seems only 10% ever step up and none ever for the worship team. Because they don't, I have taken on maintaining the sound system, scheduling the music, setting practices, and should there be special event I also schedule the music for them too. I know the WL should but it doesn't happen. (That alone tells you where the WL's vision lies)

I have been asked by multiple people why I don't just take over the WL position to which I reply the God put the WL were he is for a reason and just like David would not over rule Saul nor shall I until God says it is time. I feel when the Pastor feels it is time I will move up. I should note that the WL is in his late 60's. He is awesome God fearing man and other then his Worship leading skills I respect him tremendously. When he is gone I do get fill in and the worship time is different. That is because as you said "without a vision the people perish" and I attempt to lead.

The vision of the WL seems to be to get through Sunday even if the music is bad because the music isn't important. Mine is different. I like to get people involved, I want them to worship not just stand there. We are called a worship team for a reason. I'm not saying my vision is a rock concert but it is to get their minds off of their problems and onto God, whether it be through word, prayer, or music. Anyway thanks for the verse it helped an keep us in your prayers.

Quabit, sometimes we have to wait during a season and it feels like treading water, or even like we are losing ground, meanwhile we watch as someone else isn't getting it done and we know we can do better. There's a reasons for it, even though in it we can't see what it is. Your heart's in the right place. Hang in there and let God work out what he is doing. Lot's of verses on "waiting" that you can lookup :)