vintage tuners sound wise ?

Hi !

Is there a difference in sound between vintage Gotoh tuners
and standard modern tuners from my MiM or AM Strat ???

Thanks !

I hope that it's not a stupid question :oops:

Philippe

Nope......although somewhere I'm certain someone will say they can hear a difference. Probably the same folks who can hear the differences between caps of the same value but of different material.

Oh, there I go starting that up again. LOL

No.

It's not the tuner that makes the difference so much as the mass, and it is noticeable. The attack is different, the sustain is different, less of an airy snap and twang.

If that's the only change you make to the guitar, the difference is subtle and you may or may not notice the difference when playing with a band.

And I don't believe that different caps of the same value sound different.

It's not the tuner that makes the difference so much as the mass, and it is noticeable. The attack is different, the sustain is different, less of an airy snap and twang.

If that's the only change you make to the guitar, the difference is subtle and you may or may not notice the difference when playing with a band.

And I don't believe that different caps of the same value sound different.

Glad you brought that up Koko. Now that you mention it I guess I can hear some difference between those on my Nocaster and the ones on my MIM. I'd attribute that to the pickups and the bridge more than anything so maybe it really isn't noticeable as far as the tuners are concerned.

It is not a stupid question at all but I'd first play with your guitar's tone & volume knobs, the same on your amp(s), play with pedals if you like, try some different picks (huge difference for the buck) and then forget about the tuners for the rest of your life or maybe just dream about them as far as tone is concerned.

I like vintage Kluson style tuners because I dig the post string hole + light weight, but had guitars with heavier Grovers etc. that sounded great and sure didn't take them off in a tone search.

I am probably completely wrong on this but that's my take.

I have a 68 tele that originally had el cheapo Fender diagonal tuning keys and a couple got wacked out on the road so I had a luthier install a set of Schallers.

Not a huge difference but think I got a bit better projection & sustain due to added mass. It didn't get neck-heavy but I also have an SG so probably wouldn't notice it much.

The Schallers are 40 years old now and a couple of the interior gears are chewed-up so it's time for a replacement but they still work well enough to gig with.

Was thinking of going back to the original tinny Fender diagonals but probably won't. Was not impressed with them.

Nope......although somewhere I'm certain someone will say they can hear a difference. Probably the same folks who can hear the differences between caps of the same value but of different material.



I can't tell with the caps. I can't even tell sometimes when the cap is a slightly different value. I can't even tell sometimes if the pot is a different value.

But the tuners, they do matter. At least the way I do them. I've got the string breaking promptly down to a lower point, and the string is prepped and loaded in my own particular way. I don't get the trashy sounds associated with lightweight zinc alloy tuners, and I don't get the ponderous weight and delayed attack associated with big suckers like the Schaller lockers. The whole balance of the guitar is changed, going to a small and light tuner weighing only 5.5 ounces per set. Lighter tuners mean the neck can be thicker and fatter, and then in turn the truss rod can be minimal size and the guitar can go places and be stored places without so much worry; and it can remain stable with much heavier strings and I love how those sound.

People who can't tell haven't learned to properly load a Gotoh split, or they're just lazy.

I forgot to mention superior tuning stability. I forgot to mention the strings sound new much longer. I forgot to mention that the lightweight tuners and great stability mean the relief can be less and thus the bending effort is less.

Can I stop now, or must the beat-down continue? :grin:



Philippe, this is not a worry for you Strat guys but the Tele guys do need to do some basic checking on American Tele necks with stock die casts. Mock up the tuners and make sure the top one's mount does not fall over the end of the headstock. Some individual necks will have been sanded too much and I suppose you'd have to trim the mount back or it could snag on clothing, etc. Look at these, I think these are average:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t25/Bubbanov/45NOV102007008.jpg

Boris I've gotten an education and I won't speak so quickly next time. Koko made similar points. I have the vintage style split shaft tuners on three of my four Teles but one is a CS Nocaster, another is a Nocaster conversion of an MIM Nashville Deluxe and the other is a CVC. Different pickups on one than the other two, three different necks and two different bridges. The fourth Tele is a 95 MIM with the Ping tuners you identified for me to answer my question.

I guess my concerns at that end of the guitar have never been as great as the other but from now on I'll pay more attention to that end and try to learn more about the tuner sets. I spend more time thinking about my strings and my pickups than I do the rest of the instrument and because of the differences between each one of mine I'd never know how much of that was coming from the tuners anyhow.

Time to get smarter. Never to old for that. Thanks for the beat down. :lol:

Odd this has come up .On my Epiphone Dot I made a lot of upgrades ,pickups ,bridges ,pots ,caps etc .I kept the same strings on where possible after the stoptail had been changed .All made quite a difference in not only sound but resonance .I had also done a thorough fret and nut job plus truss rod adjustment .The last item to be changed was to Grover Deluxe tuners ,heavier than the stock ones and much more precise solid feel.The tone and resonance improved by a quite noticable margin,not a huge amount but there ,more clearer bass notes and such .It also stopped the last remaining minor rattle thet epis have and Gibsons dont .I kept the old strings on as usual as its useless putting new strings on twixt before and after .

Thanks everyone !!

I'm gonna try the vintage tuners on my AM Strat and will let you know
if I can hear a difference. I cannot compared caps of the same value
but I can hear the difference with strings break angle...

I just don't want my Strat to sound twangy / with a very sharp attack
like my Teles w/ those vintage tuners...


Phil.

It makes sense that as an anchor point of the strings, the tuners would be vital to the tone of the guitar. I have changed tuners on 3 guitars, on two (changing from standard modern budget tuners to schaller gotoh locking) I didn't notice any change.

On a Vintage/Wilkinson SG copy I upgraded the Wilkinson Deluxe Vintage Kluson style pickups for solid Sperzel locking tuners and that did make a big difference to the tone. This did change the tone and made it maybe more solid sounding. It wasn't all good, I felt the vintage style tuners had more character and airiness. I hadn't been looking for a sound change and didn't welcome it, but I decided for me the sound was different but good, and worth it for the more precise and locking tuners.

(Can't tell the difference in sound between caps, or between nitro and poly, FWIW)

The Gotoh SD91 diagram any help

Thanks everyone !!

I'm gonna try the vintage tuners on my AM Strat and will let you know
if I can hear a difference. I cannot compared caps of the same value
but I can hear the difference with strings break angle...

I just don't want my Strat to sound twangy / with a very sharp attack
like my Teles w/ those vintage tuners...


Phil.

There are many components that contribute to your guitar's sound, and no matter what you do, you're not going to get a Strat to sound like a Tele.

The heavier mass tuners contribute to a sharper attack.

If you install vintage tuners on a guitar with modern ones, you'll need a set of conversion bushings.

OMG. What a torrent of misinformation. There's a lot of things that can affect your tone but your tuners are not one of those things - unless they're so bad that your guitar will not stay in tune.

A well-fitted bone nut will do more for your guitar's tone than any tuner change ever could.

Funny how the guys who build and repair them disagree with you. Just because some of us have just never noticed any difference doesn't mean it's not there.

Lots of opinions and different experiences in this thread. I have never noticed any change in tone or sound when changing tuners that I can say is due to the tuners only. Since I ususllt change also the strings that has an effect, if I do not change strings but just unwind and rewind that has an effect etc. Others might hear other things and notice things I do not. Best thing to do is just try it and listen for difference? And, most important, get good ones and wind the strings well so the guitar stays tuned.

Funny how the guys who build and repair them disagree with you. Just because some of us have just never noticed any difference doesn't mean it's not there.

Sweet Jesus, soulman, I've been fixing 'em since 1985 and worked as a builder at Santa Cruz Guitar for most of the 1990s. I'm one of the guys who build and repair them. And I'll say it again - unless they're mechanically damaged, tuners are just not that big a deal, tonewise.

Want bang for the buck? Get a properly fitted bone nut and a GOOD bridge. Those two items will do more than any other mods to get your guitar sounding as good as it can.

I agree wholeheartedly that the nut and saddle contribute more to a guitar's tone than the tuners, but it's simply false to say that they have no effect.

hmm well my tele sounds different than my strat and they have different tuners.... so.... i can hear a difference

hmm well my tele sounds different than my strat and they have different tuners.... so.... i can hear a difference

for the record that was a joke

Sweet Jesus, soulman, I've been fixing 'em since 1985 and worked as a builder at Santa Cruz Guitar for most of the 1990s. I'm one of the guys who build and repair them. And I'll say it again - unless they're mechanically damaged, tuners are just not that big a deal, tonewise.

Want bang for the buck? Get a properly fitted bone nut and a GOOD bridge. Those two items will do more than any other mods to get your guitar sounding as good as it can.

Sorry Arbiter no offense intended. I wasn't aware you were a builder. You didn't say. Prior to these conversations I would have said no because I can't notice any difference I couldn't attribute to something else but I don't disagree with your slant on it.

I guess as far as what I'll refer to as mechanical components tuners, nut and bridge my guess would be that they'd have the least direct tonal influence which is why I guess I've replaced the others but never tuners.

Lots of different opinions maybe too little knowledge about that end of the guitar on my part. For me the best tuners are the set and forget type. If they're not stripped or sticking I guess I'm just not thinking about them much.

Just trying to add to my knowledge but around here opinions vary greatly.

Peace.

I typically like new Grover 18:1 tuners on guitars because they allow for easier precise tuning and I feel help to keep the strings in tune a little better as they take more turns of the tuner key to make a certain amount of change on the string than the 14:1 (I believe) stock Vintage style tuners on my CVC Tele. In addition the Grovers are very smooth with very little slop.

Having said that, I kind of like the way the vintage style tuner string is loaded. Much easier for an old fart with glasses to insert the string.

OMG. What a torrent of misinformation. There's a lot of things that can affect your tone but your tuners are not one of those things - unless they're so bad that your guitar will not stay in tune.

A well-fitted bone nut will do more for your guitar's tone than any tuner change ever could.

That in itself is misinformation:lol:

There are many components that contribute to your guitar's sound, and no matter what you do, you're not going to get a Strat to sound like a Tele.

The heavier mass tuners contribute to a sharper attack.

If you install vintage tuners on a guitar with modern ones, you'll need a set of conversion bushings.

OMG. What a torrent of misinformation. There's a lot of things that can affect your tone but your tuners are not one of those things - unless they're so bad that your guitar will not stay in tune.

A well-fitted bone nut will do more for your guitar's tone than any tuner change ever could.


I agree wholeheartedly that the nut and saddle contribute more to a guitar's tone than the tuners, but it's simply false to say that they have no effect.

If you want to sort out an issue like this, you have to consider why a change in tuners, nut, or bridge assembly changes the voicing of the guitar.

Mass and stiffness are the physical characteristics that are changing with these mods. Increasing mass increases bass, increasing stiffness increases highs. Changing either one will change the attack/decay behavior. A guitar is a resonant mechanical network, so the location of the components is also a big factor. Components in direct contact with the vibrating string or in the transmission path between the string and the amplification have the greatest impact.

Bridge assembly - agreed, big impact. It's in direct contact with the vibrating string on every note. For an acoustic guitar, everything you hear is tranmitted through the bridge. It's out of path for electrics, but it still has a significant effect.

Nut - For fretted notes, it's just headstock mass. It's out of path. The difference in weight between nuts of different materials in very small, virtually negligible. For open strings, differences in stiffness can be audible.

Tuners - You have a relatively short steel shaft that's well supported at the base, so stiffness isn't going to be a significant variable. The impact on tone is just headstock mass.

You can hear the difference headstock mass makes by attaching a small weight. A skinny flexible neck like an old SG will be affected more than a maple baseball bat Tele. Look for differences in low end response and attack/decay. Different guitars, different ears, you'll hear what you hear. Significant difference, you decide for yourself.

I typically like new Grover 18:1 tuners on guitars because they allow for easier precise tuning and I feel help to keep the strings in tune a little better as they take more turns of the tuner key to make a certain amount of change on the string than the 14:1 (I believe) stock Vintage style tuners on my CVC Tele. In addition the Grovers are very smooth with very little slop.

Having said that, I kind of like the way the vintage style tuner string is loaded. Much easier for an old fart with glasses to insert the string.

That's the reason Leo used them way back when. He knew that someday those same Tele's would be owned by old farts like us who would appreciate that. :mrgreen:

That's the reason Leo used them way back when. He knew that someday those same Tele's would be owned by old farts like us who would appreciate that. :mrgreen:

Ha! You just may have something there! :lol:

Sweet Jesus, soulman, I've been fixing 'em since 1985 and worked as a builder at Santa Cruz Guitar for most of the 1990s. I'm one of the guys who build and repair them. And I'll say it again - unless they're mechanically damaged, tuners are just not that big a deal, tonewise.

Want bang for the buck? Get a properly fitted bone nut and a GOOD bridge. Those two items will do more than any other mods to get your guitar sounding as good as it can.

I know someone out there is liable to read your post (as directed at mine) so I'll take yours apart:

Repairmen don't work on Squiers, for the most part. The guitars you fool with had expensive tuners to start, so you have missed a large segment of the guitar population. Those are the guys who've tried to cope with cheap tuners and wonder where all these extraneous, trashy sounds are coming from. You weren't telling them because these are not what you fool with.

Two: your prime period no doubt saw a lot of pathetic and used up old split shaft tuners (a lot of them the dreaded "F" style trapezoidals) and so to you, new and better equals die casts. But I think the splits that Gotoh makes today are a better choice because they're durable, quiet, light and strong. And, nothing loads a string the way a split shaft tuner can. Guys are increasingly liking the looks of these - you can huff and puff, but now it is the die cast tuner which is on the wane.

Three: You can deny it all you want, but if you are in repairing things, you aren't really supposed to be rocking the boat - you replace like with like. I can well imagine the kinds of looks and demands for an explanation you would have gotten from a customer if you took his fairly stock 10 year old guitar and suggested he convert from the stock die cast to a vintage style tuner, what with all of the permanent visual changes that the conversion requires. This would've been especially true 20 years or so ago, before the resurgence of the split shaft had begun.

I would EXPECT a person from your background to fight back; it is only natural. But with the internet, the older guitar repair and design guys are not at the fore of things. Some the guys (like me) who felt like slaves to their guitar repairman have gotten free of the chains and we'll listen to what you have to offer but you can't dictate to guys anymore.

Btw, I agree that bridges are real important; I sure spend time working on those (as my many posts on them reflect). I've got quite a few bone nuts I've installed, and certainly the soft plastic nuts found on Squiers and such are worthless, but precisely what a nut is made out of is no where as important as getting it shaped and positioned right. Yes, a nut on a Squier normally always needs replacement before the tuners but tusq and black composites work, and synthetic bone works as well as does bone.