would you refuse to play a gig because of bad sound?

Last night we attempted to play yet again with some friends of ours at an acoustic show at a local venue.We are an acoustic duo and play moderately intricate parts and while we dont have to have perfect sound we depend on being able to at least have some sort of reference to our respective instruments. What we got was no eq on the monitors at all, an incompetant soundman with a chip on his shoulder,and sound than ranged from severe ground hum to severe distortion depending on who was yelling out the latest greatest tip for sound amplication.we were told later that this is pretty much the standard setup for sound and in most situations you have little or no time for sound check and we better get used to it because its pretty much the norm. The bad part was this is a well known band who has played large venues and who when they got up to play couldnt care less about monitors,beat the living hell out of their instruments,stole the show and everyone raved.Honestly, are they right? should you sacrifice tone and precision because youll never get a good sound check anyway? Weve played shows where sound was awesome and i setup my own sound.didnt seem all that hard to me.so the question is,is there a threshold where you would just say forget it? Or how would you handle it. Thank you in advance...

I wouldn't. Plug into a dimes plexi and put it next to the sound guy.

Johninet,
I feel for ya man, I've had soundman hell gigs before. I've heard of soundmen being instructed to ruin the opening acts sound to not let the main act be upstaged. I'm not saying was your case necessarily. I've said f*** this! at open mics when the sound really was bad though. Personally if I was in your shoes and trying to get through a gig that was bad I would just try and tough it out. Honestly, If it was bad and too ridiculous to manage to finish the set I might just fake a phone call and leave the venue though... My Wife's having the baby NOW!!! gotta go!

thanks quacktastic,if fact we did tough it out for about half the set when the other bands singer asked about how long we had left.I smiled and said "were finishing up right about now brother." Then i spent the next thirty minutes trying to fix their broken gear,finally said screw it and let them play through our stuff....

You just have to decide how much crap you'll put up with, and say a pleasant "no" to anything past that point.

Fwiw, I once saw the same thing happen to Dave Edmonds when he was opening for the Stray Cats in concert. Dave gamely tried to play, but after six songs he apologized to the audience and left the stage. Stray Cats came out a bit later, and the sound was flawless. The weird thing: Dave was their producer, and one would think their friend!

Tim

You just have to decide how much crap you'll put up with, and say a pleasant "no" to anything past that point.

Fwiw, I once saw the same thing happen to Dave Edmonds when he was opening for the Stray Cats in concert. Dave gamely tried to play, but after six songs he apologized to the audience and left the stage. Stray Cats came out a bit later, and the sound was flawless. The weird thing: Dave was their producer, and one would think their friend!

Tim

Tim,

I saw that happen to the Stray Cats when they opened for Stevie Ray Vaughn at the Toledo Zoo. This was less than 2 months before we lost Stevie.

The sound guys had no bass player evident at all, a murderous snare, loud guitar and almost no voice. Brian begged in vain for some attention for two full songs, started the third, swore once, and left the state.

This wasn't a 'kill the openers', tho. They actually paid a bit of attention to Stevie's group, but I never heard the keyboard guy until the last 1.5 tunes.

Stevie was a trouper and tried to put a good face on it for Brian and his guys, but I have never forgiven that sound company.

I had a soundguy blame me for the crappy sound coming out of the monitor. He was blaming my mandolin rig. Then why did it sound flawless in every other monitor and my vocal mic also was crapping out? After he threw a tantrum, he came over and shoved the fiddle players wedge towards me to share a mix and went back to the board in a huff. I'm glad we brought our own guy in to mix.

No, bad sound is not "normal." If I wasn't getting what I wanted after two songs, I'd stop playing and apologize to the audiance and have them fix the mix right there and then before I continued. I can get through a less then stellar mix, but a total crap mix? No way. Anyone that sings or plays acoustic has to have decent monitors. It's not that hard to do.

I have played some gig's with seriously craptastic sound
just do the best that you can, dont have a fit, and hope the audience is understanding, (or drunk)

Unfortunately, yeah it happens a lot.
If you stick around you learn to deal with it in various ways. I'm not a big advocate of leaving the stage ... unless you actually are Dave Edmonds or Brian Setzer.
My way was/is to immediately upon arrival at said gig, give the sound guy a 20. It's been pretty effective - YMMV.
Another way is to have your own (you and your partner or group) sound totally together via some type of DI or acoustic amp/mixer system.
To that extreme I regularly share the bill with a large acoustic group (the Wicked Tinkers) and they COMPLETELY mix themselves on stage - mics, effects and mixer - and just give the soundman two XLR's out.
That's, as I said, extreme - but it works.

If you stick around you learn to deal with it in various ways. I'm not a big advocate of leaving the stage ... unless you actually are Dave Edmonds or Brian Setzer.

+1

If we are contracted to do a gig, we do it. Pulling out / not doing the gig due to crappy sound is breach of contract & we will not get paid & let down 100 people.

Not on.

we were told later that this is pretty much the standard setup for sound and in most situations you have little or no time for sound check and we better get used to it because its pretty much the norm.

>>>Tough it out, you can overcome it and it'll make you stronger.

The bad part was this is a well known band who has played large venues and who when they got up to play couldnt care less about monitors,beat the living hell out of their instruments,stole the show and everyone raved.

>>>They're probably used to mediocre sound and just did what they do.

This is rock and roll, it's NEVER gonna sound like the cushy rehearsal room on stage.

Live sound almost always sucks! The more experienced band has learned that from experience. They also have probably played together so often in bad sound situations that they don't have to listen to each other. I used to be fussy about having good vocal monitors but finally gave up. I don't even ask for monitors anymore I put some earplugs in and hear my own voice through my head. Not a whole lot to do with musicality when playing live. That's why I now work mostly in my recording studio.

What we got was no eq on the monitors at all

Just picking up on this specific point...most small to medium systems won't really allow for independent EQing of channels into the monitors. The desk just gives you a chance to adjust the level of each channel into the monitor. I would never ask for the EQ of my guitar or vocal to change in the monitor...you are getting into quite serious systems before you have that option.

In general, no matter how band the on-stage or front-of-house sound you have to play on. And in fact it's a good idea not to act like a diva over it. I have seen a buddy of mine who sound engineers get abuse from bands on stage, even when he is clearly doing his best to get a good mix and fix problems with little time to do it. Those bands don't do themselves any favours by publicly complaining.

I'm not meaning to blow my own horn here, but this is a major reason why I loive to run sound. People are actually surprised when I'm proactive, responsive to their reasonable requests, ask them how things are every now and then.

Something about the artist/soundman relationship that breeds this kind of attitude.

The soundman is your friend. Ask what you can do to help. Buy him a cup of coffee. Compliment him on the good job he is doing. Don't bitch.
I ain't kiddin' - whether you're the opener or the headliner, be nice. I've watched major stars (and rank amateurs alike) moan and whine about FOH mix, monitor mix, heat, cold, whatever...ALWAYS makes the complainer look bad. Every time.

I'm not meaning to blow my own horn here, but this is a major reason why I loive to run sound. People are actually surprised when I'm proactive, responsive to their reasonable requests, ask them how things are every now and then.

Something about the artist/soundman relationship that breeds this kind of attitude.

Yes - a good soundman is like gold dust. I've played gigs where I literally couldn't hear anything but my own guitar in stage - that was fun, keeping time by watching the drummer!

I'd never walk off though. I'd just not go back.

thank yall so much for the advice. the integrity of this forum amazes me. Let me clarify a few things.We would never insult our friends. In reflection,"the sound guy" is just a friend of theirs trying to help out. as far as eq'ing the monitors, i didnt realize that.But im not talking about eq'ing each channel to improve my tone im talking about the whole monitor mix so it doesnt sound like 50,000 watts being piped into a jambox.Out of kindness,i think i understated the the monitored sound.It wasnt just bad, it was distorted to the point of incoherance...thanks again

I've tossed sound guys off of boards before. That's not something you can do everywhere, BTW, but if it needs doing and you can you should. But no, to the original question, I'll stop and make it right - and I DO NOT CARE if I hurt the sound guy's fee-fees - but I won't refuse to play.

I would not refuse to play. Stop and get it right or keep going and do your best.

If I refused to play a show because of bad sound, I'd have played maybe 5 gigs in my life instead of 500.

I learned early not to expect miracles, but to do the best you know how regardless of the obstacles. I have played in only a few places where I was NOT in control of the sound and it wasn't pretty! I have had the sound system shut down on me once, the monitors turned nearly off, vocals turned off, etc. and still, I kept going. You get points for not freaking out and stopping mid-song. Just remember those places where you had trouble and be ready.

I just assume that whatever dreck I hear in the monitors or in-ears has nothing to do with the beautiful sound that is bathing the audience in musical ecstasy.

Knowing the songs and the counts and the other band members parts is essential when you can't actually hear them!

Your sound is your reputation! You never know who's going to walk through that door. You have the right to be picky, if the sounds not right, your confidence is low, and when your confidence is low it will reflect in your playing and singing

It took us a few gigs to learn how to communicate with the sound crew and get our monitors together. It always helps to be polite. Once the show starts, the band is in control of the audience experience, and if you've been agreeable up to that point, you get better response from the sound board

We only had one guy run obtusely crummy sound for our band, and he did that to everyone that night except his own band. We were polite to him too -- never let a guy think he can shake your confidence with his little knobs. Focus on the audience experience and the sound guy usually will cave in and turn a level your way

It's really important to not forget the stresses that are involved in live music. The sound techs are not out to get you, nor does the gear have an axe to grind. But stuff happens and part of being professional about this is not losing our cool. I'm an amateur in the sense I don't play for money, but I play live 2-3 times a week, every week, and I now accept that Murphy's law is alive and well. When I play in a new place I *might* get a few minutes for a quickie sound check. I *might* be at a place blessed enough to have a digital board with memory preset features, so the desk can mix my band and easily switch to the next band when they are up. But if not, they don't mess with the levels too much if I am not the top draw.

And stuff breaks. A distorted monitor sounds to me like a blown pre-amp on the monitor board or a send, or even as simple as accidentally connecting the wedge with a guitar cable instead of a speaker cable. The stresses of supporting live music are hard on people and gear. People make mistakes, gear breaks. We have to deal with it. Two weeks ago my I was playing on a low volume stage. Small amp, not cranked too high, miked. I needed a good monitor to hear myself, and wouldn't you know it, my monitor channel blew during song 2, and my sound disappeared (to me anyway) although it was present in other monitors and FOH. I signaled to the desk that I was gonna turn my amp volume up, and went and did it. The desk tech responded by adjusting the amp mike down accordingly. Not ideal, but at least I could continue playing (could hear myself) and trust the desk to take care of FOH. Play On!

I am with the suck it up and tough it out sentiments.
Yeah it sucks but that's life.

Talk to engineer as soon as you get there, help him by giving him as good a mix as possible by being in control of your own sound. and allways be polite.
Yet to walk off a stage for bad sound after 30+ years of gigs. That doe`s not mean I will accept crap sound, only that I will work with engineer to make it acceptable to gig with.
Being in control of your own sound (and there`s no excuse not to be ) is a standard requirement of a gigging band.
One venue that we play at fairly frequently, has a sound guy, nice bloke and all but where he has to sit, up in a small room where all he can hear is treble frequencies so he over compensates with masses of bass and he turns guitars off:shock:.
I allways have a good gig there as i take my own desk and do the sound myself and give him a feed from that, so all he can do is turn whole mix up or down.

I play mostly dive bars and got used to playing with what ever is there, sometimes it's good, sometimes not so much. Having been a traveling sound guy, sometime they get crap to work with and no time to figure it out (that's what the opening band is for :^) ). Also I've had the band I worked for open for some big bands, they gave me 8 channels of 24 and no delay or compression (and no lights other than a sidefills) to work with and they did the monitors. You have to work with what you get.

You just have to decide how much crap you'll put up with, and say a pleasant "no" to anything past that point.

Fwiw, I once saw the same thing happen to Dave Edmonds when he was opening for the Stray Cats in concert. Dave gamely tried to play, but after six songs he apologized to the audience and left the stage. Stray Cats came out a bit later, and the sound was flawless. The weird thing: Dave was their producer, and one would think their friend!

Tim

+1

- Jagg

Dave edmunds name crops up a lot regarding sound engineers, partly down to his attitude (and i`m a big fan) but he can be a real pain apparently.
So much so that I heard after heckling one sound guy whilst onstage, the engineer put his vocals through a pitchshifter up a tone, but only through Daves Monitors, wicked trick but funny !:lol:

....We are an acoustic duo and play moderately intricate parts...

..this is a well known band who has played large venues and who when they got up to play couldnt care less about monitors,beat the living hell out of their instruments,stole the show and everyone raved....

More than the sound system it seems the two acts are not complemtary. Even with the best of sound if the main act is a high energy group they will have a high energy audience. And that high energy audience is going to snooze through an intricate acoustic duo, I know I do.

I would suggest you find shows where the audience and venue primarily host intricate acoustic music. I think that sound person will start out in tune with what ou are trying to do.

I've been both sides of the coin. As a soundguy I do not prescribe to the make the less than headline sound bad to make the headliners sound " better". That b.s. and unethical in my opinion. You never know when your next best opportunity may come from.
I have run for bands where going into a venue to find inadequate systems and making it work by going to the truck for my own rack and mics. Saving the day.
There is alot of bottom feeder soundguys in any market that has less than quality gear. Or buys the biggest baddest rig and has no clue how to run it.
I've been called by a promoter to replace an incompetent soundguy on his own rig. Imagine that deal. Me walking in cold to a room/ rig I don't know. And having security personel stand next to me while I ask the soundguy to step aside. This case was where the guy was so drunk/ high he could not do anything.

well crap... I guess i should just quit crying and play. I had lunch with the other band and we agreed we were both right..I was out of my comfort zone and lost confidence when things werent perfect and thats just part of live music...and life...But he did say that sound is a huge issue for them and they just dont honestly know how to set up their equipment...so get a little... give a little... live and learn...Thanks guys...

The soundman is your friend. Ask what you can do to help. Buy him a cup of coffee. Compliment him on the good job he is doing. Don't bitch.
I ain't kiddin' - whether you're the opener or the headliner, be nice. I've watched major stars (and rank amateurs alike) moan and whine about FOH mix, monitor mix, heat, cold, whatever...ALWAYS makes the complainer look bad. Every time.

That's what I do. Once he gets my stage volume he usually buys me a drink.

As far as big stars doing that, yeah, I've seen it a few times (only Joe Stampley griped at me on stage) but 99% of the time I see them smile and keep moving through the set until it's over.

We always carry enough gear to basically carry our own sound. No one plays without their own amp which can be used to control tone, volume, and personal monitoring. (The sound guy will complain, but tough). We sing in such a way as we can sing without monitors, close proximate of microphones, even sharing a microphone will help with this. Even with an acoustic, I would carry a small acoustic amp, then take it to the sound system. Then you have your own personal monitors to set as you like. You could do the same with vocals.

You just have to decide how much crap you'll put up with, and say a pleasant "no" to anything past that point.

+1

My band has our own soundman to avoid situation like that.

I've said the ol' "Never again!!!" but always end up playing the same gigs with the same crappy soundman. Ahh, the drug that is music!!! :wink:

-Jagg

We just played a FOX news station 2 weeks ago. Everthing was live... NO vocal monitors. I gave the singer an earplug to put in one ear to help her hear herself. I read her lips to play. You just suck it up and deal with it. Simple....

Some guys care and some guys don't.... the best i can say is allow plenty of time to get the system set up... IF the system is set up for the main act, you may have to minimize your monitors and play more off of the house as a lot of guys won't care how you sound... to them you are filler....
there is also the difference between a digital system and and analog one.... the digital is much easier to get multiple setups for the monitors.... yes, you can do it for the analog system, but it is quite a bit more time intensive.... and a bit more difficult to recall the main acts settings .....
i've done gigs with 14 bands on one stage in one day, and we did the entire thing with separate mixes on analog gear... was it work, yep.... was it worth it? yes.... and i've done gigs with 8 bands on digital gear and sound checked the main act first..... each act was separate and i started each one with a clean, altho neutrally eq'd mix, before we got the stage set for them
some guys think "good enough" is what is asked of them.... in almost all cases, it is not

I have had the oppoSite experience running sound. An accoustic duo with one player using a Boss Metal Mania for "leads". "To tinty, to much feedback, not enough lead in the monitors". I'm a guitar player not a wizard! I walked off an got a beer. Learned my lesson volunteering as sound guy when regular sound guy has to chase his woman around.

I flat out refused to do a gig with the big band I work with based on the soundman. We did an outdoor gig last summer, and the sound was brutal. The same sound company was hired for another outdoor gig in the fall, and again the sound was brutal.

I told the leader of the band that I would not do any gigs involving this sound guy.

You just suck it up and do the best you can. Over time, playing with bad mixes gets easier, as you can find your way without really hearing yourself. Live sound is never perfect and there are a lot of tradeoffs involved.

I would recommend doing your best to work with the sound guy. Hopefully they know their room and the problems with it. Pay attention to the recommendations to keep your stage volume under control.

I've found making it evident to the soundguy that

1. You care about your sound
2. Know when its good or bad, and what you like/dislkke
3. You will do everything you can to make their job hassle-free AND enjoyable

you've got that person on-side. At worst you won't have to deal with their worst.