New Rat Day

OK it was yesterday :roll:. My hands shake too bad for the fine soldering required for pedal building. So I had a friend, I made when I could solder, build one for me. I told him I wanted an exact clone of an early '80s ProCo Rat with no mods. That's what I got and I couldn't be happier with it. I regretted not getting one back in the day for many years. There's nothing I can add that hasn't been said about this circuit before. I'm just glad I finally got my RAT :grin:

Sounds like you have a good friend, and a good rat.

wow, i'd like to do that too! no friends who can do that though. i don't want a rat clone. . .i like the top connectors!

I didn't think about the top jacks or I would have asked :oops:. Still it's hard to complain

There's nothing I can add that hasn't been said about this circuit before.

There's nothing I can say either, other than to say that really nothing else needs to be said!

The only exception to that is for anyone who's put off trying a Rat for one reason or another that it's worth giving one a shot. You might be missing something. Even for light drive, just back the dist control way down and mess with the tone control until you find the sweet spot.

It's hard to think of a Rat without thinking about Spandex, big hair and moon boots. I've been reading about light drive here and that's what got from I should've, to I have to have one. I was pleasently suprised by this side of the pedal. Who would've guessed?

It's certainly worth it to try one. Esp since you can get inexpensive clones and don't have to search out vintage peices anymore.

If you have any blues tunes in your set list, play some slide on your Rat - some of the best bluesy slide tones ever!

If you have any blues tunes in your set list, play some slide on your Rat - some of the best bluesy slide tones ever!

I had to try it as soon as I read your post. I have a moded Ceriatine TMB 36, it's a very Marshally head. I ran the Rat into my Liquid Lead into the 36 and the Levee broke :cool:. Is there anything this pedal won't do?

Is there anything this pedal won't do?

No.

Well, maybe make coffee - dunno, just haven't tried it yet.

Seriously, I've had the stock Rat2 back on my board for going on 2 years now and I'm still discovering new pleasures with it.

No.

Well, maybe make coffee - dunno, just haven't tried it yet.

Seriously, I've had the stock Rat2 back on my board for going on 2 years now and I'm still discovering new pleasures with it.

got another "Rat Date" this Saturday night (yay, another rock gig!) and am looking forward to my 'Fake LP'>'Fake Rat' combo again (sorry, Tele Forum, but the Tele takes a break this weekend:wink:)

...I'm still discovering new pleasures with it.

That can't be said enough!

Dang, I knew I shouldn't have clicked this thread:lol:

ya'll got me curious now, guess I'll be lookin' around here to try one.
I never thought it was much other than the spandex thing, but I'll check it out now.

EDIT: dang, I forgot to tell you congratulations on the new Rat, sorry df

If it's good enough for both Bill Frisell and Thurston Moore then it's good enough for me.

Yeah, now I'm going to look for one too.

If it's good enough for both Bill Frisell and Thurston Moore then it's good enough for me.

When did Moore use a Rat? His website has his different touring rigs going back quite a ways and I don't recall ever seeing one. The biggest change to his rig in recent years was the removal of the MXR Blue Box for a newer boutique fuzz.

THURSTON

Are you sitting down? As I approached Thurston's area of the stage, I noticed his pedalboard was considerably less...blue. Upon closer inspection, it appeared the MXR Blue Box, a staple in Thurston's (non-changing) set-up for over a decade now, was nowhere to be found! Could it be? Has Thurston finally deviated from the same six effects pedals he's been using since the mid-90s? Well...yes! Check it out!

Sitori Sonics 'Harem Fuzz'
MXR Phase 90
Dunlop Jimi Hendrix Octave Fuzz
Crowther 'Hot Cake' overdrive
Electro-Harmonix/Sovtek Big Muff
Mutron Wah-Vol

When did Moore use a Rat?

THURSTON

Has Thurston finally deviated from the same six effects pedals he's been using since the mid-90s?

So I'm guessing...sometime prior to the mid-90's? Just a guess.

Maybe it wasn't used regular enough to be on the board. Case in point - Frisell seems to be currently using a TS9 more than other drive boxes, but I think he typically defaults to the Rat. A non-Rat drive box might just work a little better for whatever he is currently doing.

Interesting either way.

I saw him last summer but it was a solo gig with Nels Cline. He had green Big Muff a Rat and an MXR for drive with a Phase 90 and some weird old silver wah filter thing. I got pictures , I'll post them later.

Love my 1991 rat2. Excuse the messy board. Im trying a few pedals today in different order than my usual. The four od/dist boxes you see pictured, compliment and stack nicely.

I saw him last summer but it was a solo gig with Nels Cline. He had green Big Muff a Rat and an MXR for drive with a Phase 90 and some weird old silver wah filter thing. I got pictures , I'll post them later.

Sweet! Thanks!

Love my 1991 rat2. Excuse the messy board. Im trying a few pedals today in different order than my usual. The four od/dist boxes you see pictured, compliment and stack nicely.

Hey 6ixstring, I'll see your 72 and Rat and call ya...

124033

Oh no...you have more pedals...you win!

Seriously, the 72 stacks incredibly well into the Rat.

well, i'm going down to Best Buy right away and get one of those new rat clone coffee makers!

Love my 1991 rat2. Excuse the messy board. Im trying a few pedals today in different order than my usual. The four od/dist boxes you see pictured, compliment and stack nicely.

Well, that looks familiar - I have a (older red) Butah and a RAT too :cool:

.. got everythin' that Uncle John need ;)

DF - Enjoy your new old RAT.

I was late to the RAT party myself - but hugely pleased I got there eventually.

But anyways ... shhh guys.. we could just let everyone think that RAT ownership requires mandatory 24/7 Spandex and lipgloss... we can keep the smoky low gain >>> fuzzy mayhem 'secret' amongst ourselves a while :twisted:

Hey 6ixstring, I'll see your 72 and Rat and call ya...

Oh no...you have more pedals...you win!

Seriously, the 72 stacks incredibly well into the Rat.

I must admit, it was you that inspired me to give the 72 a try with the rat. I had the rat for a while before the 72. I was looking for a pedal to kick it a little. I recently picked up the 72 on eBay and am happy with the results.

I might have a few more pedals, but I don't have the "ticking time bomb clock". You need a coiled red and blue wire attached to it...lol.

... but I don't have the "ticking time bomb clock". You need a coiled red and blue wire attached to it...lol.

Now that's a DIY project that I can handle!

But anyways ... shhh guys.. we could just let everyone think that RAT ownership requires mandatory 24/7 Spandex and lipgloss... we can keep the smoky low gain >>> fuzzy mayhem 'secret' amongst ourselves a while :twisted:

Just don't tell the folks over at TGP - they'll drive the price up to that of a Klon.

Still using the RAT I bought new in 1983. I only use it for "over the top" distortion (Distortion control at 1 o'clock), and employ Boss Turbo Overdrive for lighter levels of crunch.

The RAT is great for the one thing it does.

The RAT is great for the one thing it does.

The Rat is great at many, many things. The entire range of gain is totally usable. The filter is perfect. You can go from light dirt to full on fuzz.

The Rat doesn't do just one thing. You need to experiment with it a little more. It is not just a high gain pedal.

The entire range of gain is totally usable.

It is amazing how different the characteristics are just from 10:00 to about 12:30!

And I can't decide where I like it best...

I think I could have about four Rats on one pedalboard with the Dist (and then obviously Filter) all set at different points.

Maybe I need to scratchbuild something called the Rat's Nest that has like FOUR Rats in one box.

As cool as the Rat is for that spandex rock thing, it just kills for all the shades of grind below it, too.

And I know that Joe mentioned cranking it up for slide - I was listening to a cut off Tom Waits' Orphans, and there was a song with some slide riffs in it, and that was exactly what came to mind.

I tried a zillion times and can't get the photos to post...errrrr. so I did links and it worked. So anyway for those that were interested here are Thurston's pedals with the Rat next to the beat to hell Green Muff. I guess it makes sense that he would not use it with Sonic Youth because at small solo gigs he is only using a Peavey 64 and the Rat will make up for not having the stack he uses with Sonic Youth.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79180483@N03/6942697624/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79180483@N03/6942640112/

But anyways ... shhh guys.. we could just let everyone think that RAT ownership requires mandatory 24/7 Spandex and lipgloss... we can keep the smoky low gain >>> fuzzy mayhem 'secret' amongst ourselves a while :twisted:

Funny thing, it turns out I wasn't using a Rat afterall. I was plugged into one of Billy G's old Rockman(s) :wink: Our secret is safe with me

I tried a zillion times and can't get the photos to post...errrrr. so I did links and it worked. So anyway for those that were interested here are Thurston's pedals with the Rat next to the beat to hell Green Muff. I guess it makes sense that he would not use it with Sonic Youth because at small solo gigs he is only using a Peavey 64 and the Rat will make up for not having the stack he uses with Sonic Youth.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79180483@N03/6942697624/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79180483@N03/6942640112/

Wow. Awesome. Thanks a million. He must be using it on the live shows that he is doing now.

DF,

Congrats on the Rat!

Majorbug,

Thanks for the cool pics!

While I'm here, anybody here ever stack Rats? Currently using it for low gain OD, but was thinking about getting another for higher distortion/fuzz. Is that crazy?

11 Gauge- The Rat's nest sounds awesome

DF,

Congrats on the Rat!

Majorbug,

Thanks for the cool pics!

While I'm here, anybody here ever stack Rats? Currently using it for low gain OD, but was thinking about getting another for higher distortion/fuzz. Is that crazy?

11 Gauge- The Rat's nest sounds awesome

Don't know if it's still in production (remember this in an old GP mag ad) but ProCo made a multiple Rat "DeuceTone" (?) that was two stackable Rats that could be configured Stock, Turbo, Clean, and Dirty-sounds like a pretty good idea!

Don't know if it's still in production (remember this in an old GP mag ad) but ProCo made a multiple Rat "DeuceTone" (?) that was two stackable Rats that could be configured Stock, Turbo, Clean, and Dirty-sounds like a pretty good idea!

Yeah IDK what all they are making these days.

I remember the rackmount pair of Rats too - the R2DU.

Here's a modded one (looks like the stuff that Beavis Audio Research does to his Rat stuff):

http://dnamusiclabs.com/sites/default/files/OutsideDone_1.jpg

That **** cra-

Don't know if it's still in production (remember this in an old GP mag ad) but ProCo made a multiple Rat "DeuceTone" (?) that was two stackable Rats that could be configured Stock, Turbo, Clean, and Dirty-sounds like a pretty good idea!

Here ya go:

http://www.procosound.com/effects-devices/deucetone-rat

Still in production - new retail at about $180.

Reputed to be somewhat noisy, with both drives engaged and with single coils.

I did some experimentation today with a pair of identical Rats (both are Biyang "Mice") with LM308N chips.

First, I confirmed that I had them set to get an identical sound.

After that, I subbed a OP07 into one. Despite my observations from the past, I was hoping not to observe a difference in characteristics. But lo and behold, the OP07 is a little brighter and more brash, and I had to back off the gain just a touch.

...After looking at the data sheets for both chips, all "standard measure" (i.e things that don't really matter much to pedals) specs were similar.

The one glaring difference is the LM308N has a large signal voltage gain of 300, the OP07 has a large signal voltage gain of 400.

...So there is about as close to the "smoking gun" as you are going to get, as to why the chips definitely behave/sound differently.

But I couldn't stop there...:lol:

I subbed in a LM301N, and tested again. Lo and behold, I could imagine many applications where someone may prefer this chip! It has MUCH better note detail, but the blur/growl of the LM308N is GREATLY diminished.

So looking at the data sheets again, I discovered the following differences:

LM301:

input resistance - 500K to 2Meg

large signal voltage gain - 160

slew rate - 10V/uSec

LM308N:

input resistance - 10Meg to 40Meg

large signal voltage gain - 300

slew rate - .15V/uSec

The much higher slew rate of the LM301N gives it much better performance for fast picking and dynamic chord playing - lots more note detail. The 308 will be "blurry and tube-y" in comparison.

At half the large signal voltage gain, the 301 is going to be more like a 12AY7 to the 308 being a 12AX7. So it will never be as aggressive.

The much lower input resistance of the 301 (by many factors) will give it a softer response. But since the slew rate is about 100X improved vs. the 308, it will give a nice balance of "definition versus softness."

The other good news? The LM301 is about 70 cents versus the OP07's starting price of around 80 cents (both chips are expensive compared to something like a 4558).

In a lot of ways, the LM301 is a GREAT choice for folks who will use a Rat for lower gain chores - I could see it being very popular for playing blues and such where the 308 (or OP07) are just too growly and gain-y in comparison.

...So there are the results of my semi- to non-scientific experiments. All 3 of these chips DO sound different, and there are factual reasons as to why that is the case.

.011 Gauge - Interesting stuff, as so very often - many thanks for taking the time and posting the results.

Sounds like you may have uncovered the Rats Nest - i.e. maybe a potential prototype right among those findings?!
Soft Rodent, Classic Rodent , Bright Rodent - all in the one box?? ;)

Ahhh, I just have to go rawk the RAT now.

In a lot of ways, the LM301 is a GREAT choice for folks who will use a Rat for lower gain chores - I could see it being very popular for playing blues and such where the 308 (or OP07) are just too growly and gain-y in comparison.

Thanks, Keith. Good stuff.

But I'm still a bit confused - if the 308 and OP07 are similar, and I believe the latter is in the newer Rats, what's the advantage the 308 has over the OP07?

+1 I'll buy that!!!! I must say, I trolled this forum for some time before I finally signed up. 11 gauges posts were always thorough and informative. I appreciate his comments . I wish he lived closer to me so I could hang out with him and pick his brain. Lol... Keith for President!

Thanks, Keith. Good stuff.

But I'm still a bit confused - if the 308 and OP07 are similar, and I believe the latter is in the newer Rats, what's the advantage the 308 has over the OP07?

It's all relative - the OP07 is considered a "high performance chip" relative to the 308. The higher gain factor is just one measure. I think it also will handle a greater supply voltage range, and it is just generally better for the kinds of things that op amps get relegated to, like oscillators and such. Because the OP07 and 308 both have the TERRIBLE slew rates for strictly audio.

I could be wrong, but the OP07 might also have a superior gain bandwidth product compared to the 308. Truly, at the bottom of this is the fact that Nat'l Semi isn't really big on the scene any longer, and it's surprising that they even make these antiquated components. Even the LM301 is pathetic by 21st century standards.

What makes the 308 superior is that it is inferior. The '07's "improvements" are for standard electronics applications.

But again - we think that everything is hi-fi audio, when there is a massive amount of low-fi electronics, from cheap stereo computer speakers to all kinds of toys for kids. There's no reason to put anything other than a OP07 or LM301 in those things. Why not a 4558? Because it's a dual op amp. Even a TL071 would be overkill in a plastic death ray gun. To infinity and beyond!

Sounds like you may have uncovered the Rats Nest - i.e. maybe a potential prototype right among those findings?!
Soft Rodent, Classic Rodent , Bright Rodent - all in the one box?? ;)

I would probably have fun with that, but others might think it's just goofy (and I probably wouldn't disagree!).

What I think I stumbled on is something like that "revoiced Rat" by Nocturne, only all it requires is subbing a chip, and not really tweaking anything (although I suppose you could if you wanted to).

It really alters the Rat in just some beneficial ways without negating anything truly unique about it. You can even crank the sucker up and it will still turn into a fuzz. It's just a bit more...refined, but you can hear it. For players that don't like the "blur and growl" when you rip thru some fast stuff, or if you want a little more glass and definition, the 301 is the way to go.

...Not only that, but it seems that either because of having half the gain or maybe an issue with the input impedance difference that the 301 has less of a bass emphasis. If you consider how dependent the specific EQ of the Rat is on the gain characteristics of the chip, it's easy to understand why it would sound different.

And it is literally just that - plugging in a different chip. No other changes necessary!

Lol... Keith for President!

Now don't go and do that to him :mrgreen:

FWIW, here's a video comparing the 308 and 07 chips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJ9tE6j1jc

FWIW, here's a video comparing the 308 and 07 chips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJ9tE6j1jc

That video makes it sound like the two chips make little to no difference IMO.

That video makes it sound like the two chips make little to no difference IMO.

That seems to be the consensus of the comments on YouTube, as well as a subsequent forum discussion on diystompboxes.com.

That video makes it sound like the two chips make little to no difference IMO.

I agree, but there is a difference. Depending on your hearing and your preferences, you may favor one over the other.

The OP07 has 135% of the gain that the 308 does. They both have nearly identical slew rates, which is what makes them similar despite the clear gain difference.

The bottom line is that the OP07 will clip even harder (and earlier) than the 308. I'd say that if someone uses a Rat for fuzzier/greasier stuff, they might actually favor the OP07.

...This all takes into consideration how sensitive someone's hearing is, particularly at around 2KHz to maybe 6KHz - that is where you will hear the differences between the two chips.

And if you aren't playing single coils or don't have a dynamic method, it probably doesn't matter which chip it is.

I wish I could honestly say that I didn't hear a difference, because the OP07 is only 70 cents.

That said, I'll take the 301 over the OP07 any day of the week. THAT might be heresy to Rat users, but I've found something that IMO adds enough flexibility in all the right ways. It also really works well in turbo mode, or in a Turbo Rat, which isn't surprising.

The OP07 has 135% of the gain that the 308 does.


Yet in the video, with the gain max'd on both pedals, I'm not hearing any difference.

This discussion and video have answered my basic question of why ProCo made the chip substitution - the 07 is much cheaper than the 308 and, as important, virtually no one can hear any difference in tone between the two.

The 7 clips so much earlier that it makes it less versatile when you want to actually use the gain knob. Its good for the higher fuzz areas, but not so much when you want a hint of dirt.

Its good for the higher fuzz areas, but not so much when you want a hint of dirt.

I use mine for a nice mild overdrive with the distortion at 9:00, then dial it up to 12:00 for some raunchy slide. Not had a problem dialing in that "hint of dirt."

I saw that clip previously - cant put much store in YT clips though!

OK heres all I know - and it is not much, but it is an honest no-bull account.

I have a '95 ProCo Rat with an LM308. USA made.

What finally prompted me to buy a 'proper' RAT after all this time, was hearing, and then borrowing a mates ProCo Deucetone RAT.

The ProCo Deucetone RAT is USA Made too - but is more recent and the twin RATS inside are OP07 based.

I really liked that Deucetone, but I was enjoying it best - by far - in Vintage RAT mode.
BTW - there is another three flavours of RAT in the Deucetone, incl, 'Clean' RAT - which is a RAT Clean(ish) Boost. pretty cool .. anyways..

So I went and snagged myself a '95 LM308 RAT.
Thus, in the short term I found myself with both a LM308 and a OP07 RAT in my possession at the same time.

What would any of us do in such circumstances?! - of course - put them head to head!
Had to be done.

Deucetone RAT was kept in Vintage mode. As the Duecetone has two seperate RATS - I tested them both individually - in Vintage mode - during the head to head with the '95 RAT - just to be uber fair.

Honest outcome?
Firstly, one of the RATS in the Deucetone sounded slightly 'better' than the other one.
I guess that is food for thought by itself.

So ...now it was down to:
The 'better ' of the Deucetone's RAT's against the '95 RAT.

The '95 '308 RAT really did sound noticeably even more usable to me. 'IMO'.
Why/how?
Retained more bass (but still not so much as to create f@rtiness),
It simply has a .. rounder 'rawk' Less brittle.
It cleaned up noticeably better ('nicer' - sorry, no idea how to describe 'nicer')
It expanded the versatility - better for greasy blues or even 'fluttery' low gain - and - was slightly warmer and more saturated at full gain.

Now, I really dont know - is that solely the LM308 factor?.
Or is there some minor element of the circuit that is also different between the two versions perhaps.

Again, I dont know. But, I am very, very happy with my LM308 RAT , and had I no regrets handing back the loaned Deucetone RAT .

Yet in the video, with the gain max'd on both pedals, I'm not hearing any difference.

It really is a case of the audio being truncated, so that video will never reveal the difference. It makes it easy to chalk it up as being small or insignificant, but IMO when it comes down to gain differences, that is one of the prime occasions that you can get "artifacts" in the signal. Some folks might not hear it, and some gear might mask it a bit.

Unfortunately for me, I have some stuff in my rigs that makes some of these phenomena a bit more overt. I use Strat neck pickups in my Teles, and some of my amps have variations on the Jensen C10Q design. If the semiconductor in any given pedal design tends to produce artifacts, it's like pieces of broken dishes being expelled from the speaker. They are usually transients that only last for fractions of a second, but imagine you had an "audio gun" that let you blast TV static in 200 millisecond "rounds."

So for the Rat user who cuts the gain way back and never opens it up, they are probably fine. If the amp speakers are a little darker or more forgiving, the chip is probably a moot point. I've found that with 2X10's or 2X12's it can typically be less of an issue.

I really start to hear the difference between these two chips at around 2:00 on the Dist control. That might seem a bit high, but with weak pickups, it might not be so extreme as one might think. Despite the pickups being weaker, a chip is capable of a certain gain, regardless. So if you strike a note hard enough, you might put things into that "full of artifacts" realm.

I think it is impossible to make a case for one chip or another exclusive of all facets. It is just over-simplifying things.

Believe me - I am all for not bothering with negligible differences, but in this case, I really have come to the conclusion that for some, subbing out the 308 would not be a good call. But it has to be an individual decision, and not one based on what ProCo originally put in the Rat, or one based on what may not be evident in a video, IMO.

So for the Rat user who cuts the gain way back and never opens it up, they are probably fine. If the amp speakers are a little darker or more forgiving, the chip is probably a moot point. I've found that with 2X10's or 2X12's it can typically be less of an issue.

I really start to hear the difference between these two chips at around 2:00 on the Dist control. That might seem a bit high, but with weak pickups, it might not be so extreme as one might think.IMO.

Hey Keith, that explains a lot, given my rig. I don't use the distortion past 12:00. I have nice warm Celestion V30's in my 2x10. And, my Tele pups are Rio Grande Dirty Harry's - definitely on the hot side.

I'm not disputing that there is a difference between and among the various chips. I had the 308 and swapped it for the stock OP07, so I obviously heard something different between the two. Just don't think it's accurate, as has been implied throughout many of these chip discussions, that unless you have the 308 chip, you really don't have a "true" rat.

Just don't think it's accurate, as has been implied throughout many of these chip discussions, that unless you have the 308 chip, you really don't have a "true" rat.

Then I will probably be The Rodent Heretic if I go over the wall, ne'er to return, as I explore the LM301 thing more and more.

I think I was telling a friend in an email that I have a pile of those chips that I had no use for. In 2012, there just aren't many applications for them. But I tend not to throw anything away. I was really amazed at what I heard, and if the chips hadn't been accessible along with the 308's and OP07's that I was swapping, they would have never been included.

That is the really GOOFY thing about stomp box components - even after decades of these things being originally designed, no one has really done any comprehensive testing with different types of semiconductors. We just take on face value that a certain transistor or chip must be used, or should be used. We have no clue as to why one would work better than another, furthermore we have no idea as to how to form a hypothesis around other chips to try. So it took a stupid accident like mine to get that "aha!"

Just don't think it's accurate, as has been implied throughout many of these chip discussions, that unless you have the 308 chip, you really don't have a "true" rat.

Might it be something else / something else in tandem?

If something as 'obvious' as an OP-amp chip gets changed out by a manufacturer over time, might something else in the circuit get changed also?

Resistor / Cap - values / types - circuit design even? - though for cost reasons, more likely to be one of the other two.
Seems at least possible - surely?

Might be just as much of an 'era' thing as a 'chip' thing?

Might it be something else / something else in tandem?

If something as 'obvious' as an OP-amp chip gets changed out by a manufacturer over time, might something else in the circuit get changed also?

Resistor / Cap - values / types - circuit design even? - though for cost reasons, more likely to be one of the other two.
Seems at least possible - surely?

Might be just as much of an 'era' thing as a 'chip' thing?

All good points.

One of my favorite videos - Visual Sound Myth Buster #2 Op Amps:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8

Just don't think it's accurate, as has been implied throughout many of these chip discussions, that unless you have the 308 chip, you really don't have a "true" rat.

Well, you and I are use gonna have to disagree. Personally, if you have a Road Runner and it says Hemi on the scoop, you better not have a 318 under the hood. Will the car get you there? Sure. Is it authentic? Nope.

Well, you and I are use gonna have to disagree. Personally, if you have a Road Runner and it says Hemi on the scoop, you better not have a 318 under the hood. Will the car get you there? Sure. Is it authentic? Nope.

So, is a Road Runner with a 440 engine (as opposed to the "vintage" 383) not a real Road Runner? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Disagreeing can get funny sometimes! I'll stop here before we start discussing whether the Mustang II was a real Mustang!!!

Man, you guys are bumming me out.


I own a new Rat, and love it.




Surely it's a Rat, right?

I mean, it says Rat. I've seen the demo comparisons, they're really not that different.


Art, isn't your Rat a Tavo clone? Err, what I mean is, is that a Rat? Is it more of a Rat than my Rat?


In the end, it boils down to me not wanting to spend $300 on something I can get for $75.



Either way, long live the Rat, in all it's myriad forms.

What a great pedal!

Surely it's a Rat, right?

A Rat, by any other name...

For a lot of us, I think the Rat argument will always come down to the chip. Even if you can make them sound the same, Rat purists always check under the hood. Its a such a simple circuit.

I won't discuss Mustangs. MOPAR! Haha.

A Rat, by any other name...

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