The Melodic Minor a Half Step Above the Dominant

This move, playing the melodic minor scale 1/2 step above a dominant chord, is one of those things that sounds cool on the couch and like a handful of clams at the gig. When I try it, at any rate.

For those readers who are not familiar with this move, I'll explain it, I hope correctly, as follows. If over a dominant chord, you play the melodic minor scale 1/2 step above the root of the dominant chord, you get all the altered dominant tones: b9, #9, b5/#11, and #5, along with the root, 3 and b7. So if you are in the key of G and you are playing the D7 chord, you would play Eb melodic minor, which gives you Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, D. (Or should it properly be spelled from D#?)

As to the D7 chord, the Eb is b9, the F/E# is #9, Gb/F# is 3, Ab/G# is b5/#11, Bb/A# is #5, C is b7, D is root.

For me, the iffiest note is the b5. To me, it is the bluest of the blue notes and is often too far out for my Country and Western Swing playing.

Anyway, I have a couple of questions for you Jazzers. Is this still a common practice, or is it associated with a certain era or certain players, and second, how is best way to make it work, it terms of starting notes, arpeggios, etc.?

I'll give it a try.

Definitely still used (40's to present).
But your band has to be harmonically sympathetic to your endeavor.

I don't use it too much unless the Dom chord is altered, like the second change of "A-Train" - D9b5. And even then I'll use the mm up a 5th - A mm (b5 and the 6th are the money notes). *Slowpinky talked about this in the '9' chords thread.

A 'better' place to use the mm up 1/2 step is approaching the IV chord.
For example: getting to D7 in an A blues it's very common to play Em7 - A7 in bar four.
Try a Bb mel.min. line over the A7 (or even in the whole of bar four) ending on an F#, A or C note over the D chord.

Example:
Descending line, bar four, 1/8 notes | A G F Db C Bb A G | F# (beat one of the D chord).

I'm sure a lot of jazz guitarists will chip in. It's most commonly called the "D altered scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_scale)" since it has all the altered notes.

It's very common in jazz, played over a dominant chord. I think historically, I associate it will Bebop, not Swing, so that would place it in the 1950s.

Here's a comment with two takes on a lick I made elsewhere:

------------------------------------------------------------

As a general comment, I think the scale choice matters less that we imagine. As long as you establish the tonality at the beginning (don't go outside too quickly!), resolve at the end, nail some chord tones along the way, then the "in between" notes can be almost anything.

Here's an example of what I mean. Over a C7, shall we play C lydian dominant or C altered? One is the other, raised a tritone, so they are opposites, so to speak. Here's a simple lick that uses all the scale tones and no passing tones, done first with C lydian dominant (wish that Gb could have been notated as a F#) and then with C altered (The chords are | C7 | F | C7 | F |).

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attachments/improvisation/1695d1278447505-your-improvising-scheme-twoways.jpg

The two takes sound more similar than different to me.

------------------------------------------------------------

all good advise, but it can be difficult to know how to apply it. It basically adds the +9,-9, _5 and +5 to a dominant chord. its easier to work one extension at a time lines to internalise it


And of course it has to resolve to the I chord

I tried it.

my mule died. my dog bit me. my wife left home. And I broke out in a rash.

never again will I listen to internet advice. not worth the price. :lol:

Definitely still used in bebop players' solos. I don't hear it too much in western swing etc.

Use it on the V of a 2-5-1. It especially sounds at home in the minor keys. If you know the ole Cry Me a River lick, it uses this scale.

The key to all of it is resolution. Find the places where the alt scale resolves to a strong note in the one chord (root,3 or 5). So if we're in C:
G alt (works on the 5 chord)= G Ab Bb B (technically a Cb) Db Eb F
So F resolves to E, Ab resolves to G when going V to I. A strong line is using the B Bb Ab to resolve to G once you get to the one chord. Another is something like Eb Db Eb Db resolve to C.

Hope that sheds some light.

All of the jazz altered scales have specific places to use them, this is typically on a V. Another response mentioned it for the II7b5 on A Train. It works, but the Lydian dominant is the more typical scale or sound used in that instance. I know the rules are meant for breaking, but having an organized approach to all of the altered stuff is really helpful.

I tried it.

my mule died. my dog bit me. my wife left home. And I broke out in a rash.

never again will I listen to internet advice. not worth the price. :lol:

Sorry to hear about your mule man.

The altered dominant scale sounds the least outside when you phrase with these notes on the downbeat-- b9,3rd,#5,and b7. Adding a passing note between the #5 and the b7 helps you to do this, and also breaks up the bleak-sounding whole tone part of the scale.

Sorry to hear about your mule man.

He was an @$$ anyway :mrgreen:

It's a SUPER "jazzy" sound.

I ain't playing it on a G7 in a folk rock tune in C.

I tried it.

my mule died. my dog bit me. my wife left home. And I broke out in a rash.

never again will I listen to internet advice. not worth the price. :lol:

I hear ya neighbor (Pepperell)

Scofield - takes it somewhere else...

Thanks, guys. That's just what I needed to know: give up on this one. Next question, can I use the triton sub over the G7 in a folk rock tune in C?

Thanks, guys. That's just what I needed to know: give up on this one.

Now wait a second!:lol:

While its the altered sound on a dominant - it also outlines the tritone ii V7

so in the key of C its 'outlining' Abm7 -Db7 - if you can use that -

Otherwise its all in a name - altered. everything altered - 5ths and 9ths - so much better to choose your 'altered notes in some cases than to have them all together in the one sound. The most important part is where the altered note resolves to: The voice leading - the #5 to the 3rd....your b5 on G7 will sound less grating if it resolves to the added 9th on the C in your folk rock tune.

The reason I mentioned Scofield is that he uses it on the Blues all the time - but he does it in groups - using the b5 in conjunction with the #9 - and not afraid of adding the nat. 5th in in combination with the b9 - in fact he treats the altered scale chromatically - altered with options - particularly the nat. 5th and 13th. Or a sort of mish mash of altered and diminished sounds if you will. When he wants it to sound 'more' abstract - he messes with the dissonant interval groups - like the maj 7's - bewteen the 3rd and the #9...or the 7th and 13th

I tried it.

my mule died. my dog bit me. my wife left home. And I broke out in a rash.

never again will I listen to internet advice. not worth the price. :lol:

Sounds like it helped you write a country song...I wouldn't be so quick to judge;)

That is the problem: trying to use them all at once. Charlie Christian made good use of altered tones, but here and there, not all at once. I still find b5 the toughest to use except in bluesy sounding lines. You guys have given me good ideas for resolutions and putting which notes on the beats and so forth. Maybe I'll get fewer winces from my bandmates when I step outside the next time. It could happen. I'll try to act like I mean it; that helps sometimes.

one thing you may want to play around with over a V chord is move a step down to the subdominant and use that as a root for half diminished, then resolve up to the five...then back to the subdominant/half diminished, than resolve up again...you can solo like that all day long...it sounds "outside, inside, outside, inside"

Thanks, guys. That's just what I needed to know: give up on this one. Next question, can I use the triton sub over the G7 in a folk rock tune in C?

I think most of the chord subs will sound a little out of place in folk rock style. Most of the players in that style rarely go out of pentatonic, blues scale, and major scale choices-they're more adventurous with rhythm and phrasing than with harmony.

That being said, check out Brent Mason's second solo on "Hot Wired"-he uses the melodic minor and basically plays a Bird bebop lick! Not folk rock, but the closest to folk rock that I can think of that uses a 'jazz' scale.

forgot to add-you can obviously be experimental with all of it! but just the history of that style doesn't include much altered harmony.

Before you give up Leon I'd give this lick a try ...
Example:
Descending line, bar four, 1/8 notes | A G F Db C Bb A G | F# (beat one of the D chord).

It's about as inside, as an altered lick can get. I can't say if CC ever used it exactly as written but it's definitely a swing era line that 'led' to bop.

The altered dominant scale sounds the least outside when you phrase with these notes on the downbeat-- b9,3rd,#5,and b7. Adding a passing note between the #5 and the b7 helps you to do this, and also breaks up the bleak-sounding whole tone part of the scale.

Yup. Yup.

"the bleak-sounding whole tone part of the scale" Yup. Yup.

Example:
Descending line, bar four, 1/8 notes | A G F Db C Bb A G | F# (beat one of the D chord).

Before you give up Leon I'd give this lick a try ...

It's about as inside, as an altered lick can get. I can't say if CC ever used it exactly as written but it's definitely a swing era line that 'led' to bop.

This leaves out the b5, which to me is the trickiest note.

You're so demanding :wink: - Try it like this ... | F G E (below the F) Db C Bb A G | F# ...

You're so demanding :wink: - Try it like this ... | F G E (below the F) Db C Bb A G | F# ...

You mean Eb of course. Okay, I'll try it over the long V7 in Take Me Back to Tulsa. Not. All seriousness aside, it's good to focus on the particular outside notes and how and where to employ them.

No, E natural - passing tone (sorry, I have serious jazz damage - still).

Here's one with Eb ...
(again, mostly descending) | G F Db A (up to) Eb Db C Bb | A ...

I tend to think that the direction you're heading with a line is a big part of using these sounds. Just slapping a bunch of Altered Tones on something doesn't necessarily work so well for me.

So, I end up using parts of a Scale like this. Maybe just 1 or 2 of the Altered Tones. Kind of like with language and speaking. Either an exaggerated phrasing, or alliteration. Something that adds some "spark" or personality to a Line, but doesn't become a full-on gag.

Also, when using these Tones, I often find that breaking things into some of the various Arpeggios inside the Scale can help to find some structure or help to direct that Line.

Mybe look at these 2 Triads over that D7?:

----------
--4--6---
--3--5---
--4--6---
---------
---------

These tag every Tone except for that D Note.

So, I end up using parts of a Scale like this. Maybe just 1 or 2 of the Altered Tones. Kind of like with language and speaking. Either an exaggerated phrasing, or alliteration. Something that adds some "spark" or personality to a Line, but doesn't become a full-on gag.

a therapeutic spoonful of hexatonic..:smile:

Not sure if you actually want custody of the b5 or not though LG...

If not try the "Cry Me a River" lick too - starting on the #9

#9 b9 #5 3 m3(#9) b2 (b9) - -resolve to the I - the 5th on the I chord.

So if you are only playing a few of the altered notes in a line, why do you need to know the whole scale, with a device like melodic minor up a 1/2 step? (For one thing, it assumes you know how to play melodic minor.) I mean, if you playing D7 at the third fret, it's easy to know where b9 and #9 are, and where #5 is and where the dangerous b5 lies. You learn that stuff in Mickey Baker Vol. I.

Good question actually.
Obviously 'knowing' the alt. tones and where they are in relation to a chord shape/scale position is optimum. Sometimes though for constructing longer lines a scale (and the theory behind the how and why) can be really useful.

And in fact I made a little video incorporating the lick I mentioned - | G F Db A (up to) Eb Db C Bb | A ....
Hope you like it, here it is ...

obvUCM6jwcw

*I end the demo with an A mm lick over the D7 chord which (in this case) emphasizes the b5, 6, 3, 9, 1 and b7 over the IV chord. I end on an E natural, the five of A.

That's cool. Thanks for doing that. I think some of those tones are little too jazz for what I do.

We're not a dress up Bob Wills tribute band or anything, and we know that Ray Price and Buddy Emmons happened, so we do swingy stuff in addition to historic western swing: Nightlife, Georgia, and Swing 42. And the western swing includes Lady be Good and Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone; not just Bubbles in my Beer stuff. So there is room for some color. Some shades are a little too dark or a little too bright. And of course a great player like Redd can make stuff work that I can't.

So if you are only playing a few of the altered notes in a line, why do you need to know the whole scale, with a device like melodic minor up a 1/2 step? (For one thing, it assumes you know how to play melodic minor.)

Yep! Learning the melodic minor as a source of new harmony took me a long long time to absorb - and also drew a few glares from other band members where my incessant experimentation with it 'exceeded the requirements of the music':mrgreen:

At a deeper level though - the ascending melodic minor is actually a mode in many parts of the world - and the notes belong together. Maybe a better place to start is hearing its minor application first. Thats how I introduced it to my playing - and it sits in my consciousness in the same way that the major scale does.

Theorist WA Mathieu is passionate about the MM - and heres why. Its a minor tetrachord followed by a major tetrachord - (the mixolydian- that other omnipresent folk mode is the other way around) - one of those sounds that has a balance of what he calls tonal energy. And before you all start yawning at the new age rhetoric :mrgreen: - what that means for your 7th degree mm mode is that it has two unusual tetrachords - 2 halves of the scale - the first is 1 b2 b3 b4 and the second is whole tone b5 b6 b7 8. It seems very 'unbalanced'..

The short of it is - learn the sounds of each tetrachord first - that first one leads straight to the tonic from the 5th - A Bb C Db - D and the second one leads down to it from the 5th - as Ken sort of alluded to earlier - A G F Eb D.

The tonic is a meeting place for both sounds that lies outside of the scale

I honestly dont know if any of that helps - but yeah - thats how I think of the altered scale in terms of gravity to the tonic - though there are any number of resolutions to other chord tones.

btw -that first tetrachord might lead you to the half whole diminished scale - which may be more useful -its certainly got some heavy tradition behind it in the bebop world.

Yep! Learning the melodic minor as a source of new harmony took me a long long time to absorb - and also drew a few glares from other band members where my incessant experimentation with it 'exceeded the requirements of the music':mrgreen:

At a deeper level though - the ascending melodic minor is actually a mode in many parts of the world - and the notes belong together. Maybe a better place to start is hearing its minor application first. Thats how I introduced it to my playing - and it sits in my consciousness in the same way that the major scale does.

Theorist WA Mathieu is passionate about the MM - and heres why. Its a minor tetrachord followed by a major tetrachord - (the mixolydian- that other omnipresent folk mode is the other way around) - one of those sounds that has a balance of what he calls tonal energy. And before you all start yawning at the new age rhetoric :mrgreen: - what that means for your 7th degree mm mode is that it has two unusual tetrachords - 2 halves of the scale - the first is 1 b2 b3 b4 and the second is whole tone b5 b6 b7 8. It seems very 'unbalanced'..

The short of it is - learn the sounds of each tetrachord first - that first one leads straight to the tonic from the 5th - A Bb C Db - D and the second one leads down to it from the 5th - as Ken sort of alluded to earlier - A G F Eb D.

The tonic is a meeting place for both sounds that lies outside of the scale

I honestly dont know if any of that helps - but yeah - thats how I think of it.

btw -that first tetrachord might lead you to the half whole diminished scale - which may be more useful -its certainly got some heavy tradition behind it in the bebop world.

"Ooo-kay", he said slowly.


I understand. I'm not sure where that leads me, but I'll play with that tomorrow. I know you can't really dabble in jazz, but this is a lot of fun for us voyeurs.

Great thread! This is exactly the kind of stuff that I like to think about, worry about, over-think about, experiment with, and sometimes just plain obsess about. Then I come to TDPRI, realize I'm not alone, and the world seems like a kinder, happier place! :lol: :oops: :wink:

Great thread! This is exactly the kind of stuff that I like to think about, worry about, over-think about, experiment with, and sometimes just plain obsess about. Then I come to TDPRI, realize I'm not alone, and the world seems like a kinder, happier place! :lol: :oops: :wink:

You've given up on meeting chicks through your guitar playing, then.

You've given up on meeting chicks through your guitar playing, then.

I know I have!

You've given up on meeting chicks through your guitar playing, then.
Affirmative. And any that do bother to talk to me, the wife runs 'em off pretty quick. :oops:

EDIT: Where's a quick and witty "Lydian flat seven" comeback when you need one! :razz: :lol:

You've given up on meeting chicks through your guitar playing, then.

I started playing guitar 40 years ago so I could get layed and I'm not going to stop until I do.


I like to keep things simple, so I do. I use a pentatonic altered scale that looks like this....
b9, #9, 3, #5, b7

The real nice thing about this pent scale is that it's other 'modes' include a half-diminished pent scale - 1, b3, 4, b5, b7

a dom 7 pent scale - 2, 3, 5, 6, b7

and a lydian pent scale - 1, 3, #4, 6, 7

Like Slowpinky it too took me literally years to comfortably understand and competently utilize the 'melodic minor' concept(s). And it wasn't that long ago either. I'd hear guys talk about it but I just really didn't get it. I would hear and play a lot of those sounds but my approach was from initially just using the alt. chord tones and then various 'altered' scales over various altered dominant chords - lyd. dom., sym.dim., loc. b7, etc. And for me it was hard to keep track of which alt. dom. scale to use in what context (how the dom7 was functioning). Then an acquaintance of mine (NY freelancer/session guy - Dan Marks) gave me a couple of lessons specifically on mm applications and for whatever reason - then it 'clicked' for me.
I think one of the main reasons guys like it is that (as with modes and pentatonics), for all intents and purposes, it's just one set of intervals to remember. The harder part is the application - making it interesting and not mechanical ... as it is with making pentatonics interesting and not mechanical.

The 'Catch 22' is that you can't really convincingly use it (even in be-bop) until you can hear it. And you won't really hear it until you start using it. That's what practice, Abersold records and jams are for.

*And after all this discussion I'm not real sure if I'd use it in a western swing tune at all - ?

*And after all this discussion I'm not real sure if I'd use it in a western swing tune at all - ?

Last attempt:

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0810/aaahhh-fresh-prince-bel-air-will-smith-dj-jazzy-jazz-jeff-tv-demotivational-poster-1222995343.jpg

And after all this discussion I'm not real sure if I'd use it in a western swing tune at all - ?

And now to get a little esoteric ...
I've found that when you know that you can, as well as how to use something - but then consciously choose not to (because you artistically feel it's not appropriate) - it makes what you choose to do that much more effective.

*Just and observation about my own playing, as well as observing other players that 'know' a lot and don't obviously 'wear it on their sleeve' at every opportunity.