shellac question

I recently read a thread from someone saying the used amber shellac and then did a finish over top of it. I did try to search for it but there are way too many threads with shellac oin them to sort thru. So my question is, I picked up a can of amber shellac today to finish my pine body and plan to clearcoat it with poly. But I read on the instructions for use not to use shellac under polyurethane. I don't plan on using alot of shellac just enough to get the amber color (probably one or two thin applications) . I am going to do a test piece to see how it works out but in the meantime does anyone have experience with shellac under poly? if I need to I will use nitro.....

Your best bet is to try it out on a test piece and let it sit for a few days. Sometimes different brands interact differently with each other... so better safe than sorry.

I use shellac all the time, but I mix my own... I don't use that pre-made stuff so I don't know whats in it...

BUT... I use shellac as a sealer and a tint under pretty much any kind of clearcoat... nitro, poly, oil... and I have never had any issues whatsoever.

I'm not an expert, but I've often been told that the rule of thumb when using shellac is that if you're using it under any other material, it needs to be de-waxed shellac (such as Zinsser's Sealcoat). If it is not de-waxed, any material layered over it will not adhere properly, and the finish will fail.

Perhaps someone with more expertise can clarify or correct me if I'm wrong.

This could very well be true... cuz the stuff I mix myself is de-waxed and like I said, I have no issues..

I just used fresh-mixed shellac on my spruce tele and it came out great. Use the same on maple necks. There's really no need to overcoat it with plastic, I mean urethane. I think shellac is pretty similar to nitrocellulose except it cures in hours instead of years.

Shellac is not as durable as nitro and poly.

french polishing (shellac) is not as "durable" but pretty darn good unless you are spilling booze on it and it is very safe to use. I think it makes a fine finish for instruments that are treated well but not so good for instruments that are exposed to the possibility of a lot of abuse.

I'm not an expert, but I've often been told that the rule of thumb when using shellac is that if you're using it under any other material, it needs to be de-waxed shellac (such as Zinsser's Sealcoat). If it is not de-waxed, any material layered over it will not adhere properly, and the finish will fail.

Perhaps someone with more expertise can clarify or correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. When under anything other than shellac, you want de-waxed. I mix my own, but if you have to get off the shelf canned stuff, Sealcoat would be what you want.
For those looking for a nice selection of flake and or button shellac, Shellac.net is a decent source http://shellac.net/ShellacPricing.html

I've used shellac under nitrocellulose lacquer for several guitars (including this one!). Would suggest that you mix your own from de-waxed flakes and denatured alcohol. I apply shellac with a Preval sprayer (mist on lots of light coats), level sand, and then cover with several coats of lacquer. Works great!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/blackbelt308/bruce2.jpg

Ciao,
Rick

I have used poly over shellac and I have built one with just shellac. The upper one is with poly and the lower one without. I used some Amber Honey Transtint in the shellac for the lower.

http://www.kpfotos.com/TFS7.jpg http://www.kpfotos.com/Finish2.jpg

I went ahead and used the bulls-eye shellac with the amber tint. the can says its a sealer. I will be sanding it and then applying poly. Based on what I have read and seen here I am confident I won't have any problems............ Ok I am keeping my fingers crossed :)
Thanks for all your input on this question, much appreciated.

...I don't plan on using alot of shellac just enough to get the amber color (probably one or two thin applications)...

If all you're using shellac for is the color, why not just tint the topcoat? There are all kinds of tints you can put into clear topcoats, e.g., TransTint. Typically you'd use a tinted finish for a couple of layers, then put untinted clear over that.

See, for example, http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm

Shellac, being a naturally derived product often exhibits a wide degree of variation, especially if not expressly described as 'dewaxed.' Some will have a little wax content, some will have a lot.

Waxy shellac tends to be be more durable as a topcoat, the wax acting to repel moisture and also make the film more tough/less brittle. But that also means it is a little more soft, both in texture and lustre, so it is not as water clear, nor as easy to polish/buff to high gloss.

Higher wax content also means that, if used as an undercoat, it is more likely to repel whatever you attempt to place on top of it - particularly water based products. Oil and/or solvent based topcoats are much less problematic.

I've used non-dewaxed shellac successfully as an undercoat plenty of times with good results. Shellac has been the 'sticks to everything' barrier/sealer for well over a century.

If you mix your own shellac from flake the wax will tend to settle in the bottom of the container and you can easily decant off the top portion to make your own dewaxed (or near dewaxed.)

But if you do that with some of the darker/more raw products (i.e. button shellac and such) don't be surprised to find out that the flake was about half wax to begin with.

here is the zinsser bullseye clear, on the LP and the amber the SG both have a pretty good shine, I sprayed alot of coats levelled then french polished the final bit to get a nice shine. I let them sit for a week or so then buffed out with Menzerna products.

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/jaxcalgary/IMG_1214.jpg
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/jaxcalgary/IMG_1219.jpg

Jaxcat, those look fantastic. I don't know much about the french polish application but nice work.
dconeill, I know there are tints available but seeing as how I live in Canada and access locally to these products is limited and U.S. companies such as stewmac won't ship finishes, I have to use what I can find locally. I was actually surprised I found the Bulls-Eye in Amber.
The poly finish I will be applying is an oil based clear coat so I hope that it won't be an issue if indeed there is any wax in the shellac. I am going to test spray the poly later today. I will post results. If need be maybe I'll have to learn how to french polish :)

jdacamper, you can order dyes and pigments from this place (in Canada): http://www.woodessence.com/Dyes-Pigments-C10.aspx

thanks for the info Glen, I will bookmark that site for future builds.

If the shellac is bullseye rattle can, then its wax free and ok to use under poly.

The spray can might be wax free, I have read several opinions that it is not. The only one I know of that is totally wax free is the Zinsser Seal Coat in the quart can. That is what I use.

The spray can might be wax free, I have read several opinions that it is not. The only one I know of that is totally wax free is the Zinsser Seal Coat in the quart can. That is what I use.

The spray can stuff is dewaxed because the wax would clog up the spray nozzle. I read that from some literature published by the company.

Hi JD,
French Polish (http://milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html)link if you want to attmpt it. I used this for my first instrument build (a Stewmac uke for my Dad). I quite liked the hands on feeling. You can order supplies from www.leevalley.ca. I feel your pain about supplies. It's even more fun when the nearest major city is three hours away!

It says dewaxed right on the can!

I love the color of amber shellac. I used it for sealer coats till I got the right color, and sprayed nitro on top... Both for my Warmouth neck and Am. Standard body. Shellac by itself is perfectly fine but I have heard that it is a little brittle.. But if that is so, then it would take on a relic look faster, if that is what you want. I have read other threads that say shellac is as durable as lacquer. But I don't think so. I put nitro on top of mine to protect the amber color of the shellac. I did a French polish.... Good luck....

Here is a pic of the guitar with a coat of bulls-eye amber shellac from a quart can. I will start the ploy tomorrow after I check the test piece I did earlier. So far it looks ok.

As far as durability goes I think fresh-mixed shellac is way under rated. I've done a few maple fretboards and they don't show any more wear than nitro.

jdacamper, you can order dyes and pigments from this place (in Canada): http://www.woodessence.com/Dyes-Pigments-C10.aspx


I visited his new store last summer. It was hella hard to find, in the industrial part of northern Saskatoon, (after the yellow pages sent me to his house). Can't remember the owners name, but he was VERY helpful when consulting about finishes. Made me spend quite a few bucks, too.!

As far as durability goes I think fresh-mixed shellac is way under rated. I've done a few maple fretboards and they don't show any more wear than nitro.


That has been my experience too. Fresh dries harder than store bought, and wears very well.

I have a free standng pantry in my kitchen, the door knobs were finished by dipping 3 times in fresh shellac about five years ago. The pantry gets accessed at least daily, sometimes multiple times in a day. There is no visible wear on the knobs to this day.

If you are willing to settle for variations on reds and yellows shellac.net has many natural colors of shellac - no dye/tint necessary.

Since there is a warning on the label to NOT use poly, I would go with the nitro. Why chance it? The manufacture warned you.. Or just don't put any top coat on it...???

It says dewaxed right on the can!

Here's your proof...

123054

What label are we talking about? The label on the brush on can is correct. That stuff contains wax. The two varieties of Zinsser spray are wax free.


Since there is a warning on the label to NOT use poly, I would go with the nitro. Why chance it? The manufacture warned you.. Or just don't put any top coat on it...???

What label are we talking about? The label on the brush on can is correct. That stuff contains wax. The two varieties of Zinsser spray are wax free.

I was referring to the shellac with the warning about containing wax. I hadn't seen the label on the spray can. Of course, that 'no wax' spray can would be fine under poly. Sorry for the mix up.

Do you need to grain fill prior to using shellac?

I've seen shellac used as a grain filler...apply the shellac, then sand down to the original wood surface. The shellac stays in the wood pores. You may have to do this more than once to fill the deepest pores.


Do you need to grain fill prior to using shellac?