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Zero stage volume - Amp Modeling??

FenderBender01
March 29th, 2012, 11:03 AM
Hey folks,
My church is moving towards zero stage volume and that means IEMs, which kind of defeats the purpose of using my tube amp on stage as my monitor. The question is, what to do? The tech pastor would really like to use amp modeling as a solution instead of iso boxes because even the iso boxes color the tone. I have a pedal board that I have put a lot of time and money into that I would like to still be able to use...so maybe I am looking for just an amp modeling option that would react to pedals the way a real amp would. Any ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? Solutions?

southpaw pete
March 29th, 2012, 01:00 PM
I use a Sansamp Liverpool pedal by Tech 21. It is analog amp modeling, and it fits right on my board with the rest of my pedals. I really like the tone, and while it isn't quite as responsive as a real tube amp (I don't know if any modeler would be), it is quite responsive and interacts really nicely with my dirt pedals.

Depending on the amp you are used to, the Tech 21 Character series have a number of different models.

Good luck on your search.

guitarzan13
March 29th, 2012, 01:05 PM
I use a POD XT..... LOVE it! I use pedals in front of it

I use mod of a double reverb through a 4-12 greenback cab. Sounds and reacts just like my amps.

tjalla
March 29th, 2012, 02:08 PM
http://www.keymusic.com/gfx_productcode/123839/Wampler-Black-65.jpg

+

http://a2.images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/144678.jpg

SngleCoil
March 29th, 2012, 02:20 PM
Especially on IEMs, a modeling solution is a pretty easy transition. I started with some of my own pedals running into a POD HD500, but pretty quickly found that I could get everything I needed with the built in effects. The flexibility to integrate you existing board is there, though.

bawdyli'lmonkey
March 29th, 2012, 04:28 PM
acoustic guitar? singers? orchestral string like violin or cello? Sax or other horn? I don't buy into "zero stage volume" mystique. IEM is fine, and depending on venue, necessary, but not allowing any amps in favor of a holy grail of 0 stage volume is over-rated.

That said, I have a Joyo american sound (like a tech21 blond, fender amp sim) that I like.

soundchaser59
March 29th, 2012, 05:01 PM
We have a guy who uses a modeller and depends entirely on the monitor mix. What I don't understand is if his modeller has hundreds of various guitar sounds in it, why does he use the same sound for everything? He has a screaming lead sound that is great for semi-metal stuff with tons of gain, delay, flanger, and reverb, but.......the next song needs a clean smooth warm rhythm guitar and he uses the same sound to play the rhythm part?

I suppose in some cases it's a good thing that he has 0 stage volume.

Sharp5
March 29th, 2012, 05:31 PM
Could you put your amp in another room? Our guitar player has started putting his amp in another room or closet at gigs where that is practical. If not, sometimes off stage pointed backwards. I don't really care what he does because I moved to IEMs about a year ago so I hear what I want. :mrgreen:

Joe-Bob
March 29th, 2012, 05:40 PM
acoustic guitar? singers? orchestral string like violin or cello? Sax or other horn? I don't buy into "zero stage volume" mystique.

I don't either. :shock:

You either have instruments or not.

If the band can't play at a sane volume, that's another issue entirely.

mrboson
March 29th, 2012, 06:05 PM
^^^ Well the OP didn't say he did either. Sounds like an edict from above. I'm glad that hasn't happened to me yet. But in case it does I read these threads to learn something.

Jack FFR1846
March 29th, 2012, 07:15 PM
We've been close for quite a while. Viola, violin, acoustic guitar....yah....they make some sound as does the choir when they're on state. I've used in ear monitors from day one and a small pedal. I think I'm going to go from the digitech to maybe a Line 6 Live XT as I am never quite happy with the sound I'm getting.

CAAD8N8
March 29th, 2012, 09:13 PM
I used to use a POD XT Live when we were forced to use amp modelers. It was OK, definitelh bettter than the multi-effects pedals from 15 years ago, but I prefer the pedal board that I have been acquiring and fiddling with over the years. We finally talked our sound guys into iso boxes, but if we're ever forced back to modeling I plan on getting a cheap Joyo amp modeling pedal and sticking it on my existing pedal board, rather than using another multi-effects/amp modeling processor. I was doing more tweaking throughout the week than I was practicing with that thing.

bawdyli'lmonkey
March 29th, 2012, 09:38 PM
if we're ever forced back to modeling I plan on getting a cheap Joyo amp modeling pedal and sticking it on my existing pedal board, rather than using another multi-effects/amp modeling processor.

snag one before the price goes up brother! (or sister!) :)

CAAD8N8
March 29th, 2012, 10:20 PM
snag one before the price goes up brother! (or sister!) :)

I have been sitting on the fence about that for that very reason..........you may have just pushed me over the edge!

bawdyli'lmonkey
March 30th, 2012, 02:47 AM
I have been sitting on the fence about that for that very reason..........you may have just pushed me over the edge!

even when we want something, sometimes we, in our human-ness, need a nudge to take the leap. You're welcome. :)

sometimes we, in our human-ness, need restraint to live in moderation. I have one joyo modeler and I want the other 3! :D AND I want joyo to do pedals for Hiwatt and Orange.

SoVeryTired
March 30th, 2012, 10:10 AM
Could you put your amp in another room? Our guitar player has started putting his amp in another room or closet at gigs where that is practical. If not, sometimes off stage pointed backwards. I don't really care what he does because I moved to IEMs about a year ago so I hear what I want. :mrgreen:

We have the guitar amp mic'd up in a room behind the stage, with the wires running via a connection box at the back of the stage through a hole in the wall. One guitarist prefers to use his multi-fx pedal, which I don't think gives as good a sound. I've considered amp modelling in the past but prefer the amp.

Either way, the sound is in ears rather than on-stage. We don't have a zero-volume stage because there are acoustic instruments on it - drums, acoustic guitar and vocals - but the PA team have much better control over the house and monitor mix when not battling with guitar, bass and keyboard amps. In our particular setting that is - yours may be different!

GoldieLocks
March 31st, 2012, 12:22 PM
To me zero stage volume means ZERO rock music. Yet churches keep toying with being modern and hip...but without the realness of the situation.
If I can't have an amp on stage -= then I'll just play acoustic guitar.

What next? Maybe churches will just record all their musicians on Wednesday night so people won't have to deal with looking at musicians or the time it takes for them to get on stage. :roll:

Good luck. Remember when churches were filled with huge expensive Organs that shook the entire building. Those were the days.:grin:

PinewoodRo
March 31st, 2012, 12:36 PM
I have an 'Award Matchbox' which is great. It's a guitar DI box with a speaker simulator (modelled on a celelstion G12) and a simple 'valvetone' EQ knob (treble cut like an old AC-30). It has a wide sensitivity range on the input so you can find the sweet spot that works with your pedals. Being a DI box, the output is XLR so you get a long cable run with no noise issues. It's also designed to run on anything from 9 to 30Vdc.

bawdyli'lmonkey
March 31st, 2012, 01:21 PM
To me zero stage volume means ZERO rock music. Yet churches keep toying with being modern and hip...but without the realness of the situation.
If I can't have an amp on stage -= then I'll just play acoustic guitar.

What next? Maybe churches will just record all their musicians on Wednesday night so people won't have to deal with looking at musicians or the time it takes for them to get on stage. :roll:

Good luck. Remember when churches were filled with huge expensive Organs that shook the entire building. Those were the days.:grin:

AMEN. But I won't "just play acoustic," I won't play.

mrboson
March 31st, 2012, 03:05 PM
To me zero stage volume means ZERO rock music. Yet churches keep toying with being modern and hip...but without the realness of the situation.
If I can't have an amp on stage -= then I'll just play acoustic guitar.

What next? Maybe churches will just record all their musicians on Wednesday night so people won't have to deal with looking at musicians or the time it takes for them to get on stage. :roll:

Good luck. Remember when churches were filled with huge expensive Organs that shook the entire building. Those were the days.:grin:

I have admittedly struggled myself with this, and I keep coming back to why I am doing this in the first place, which means I am willing to do my second, third, or even last preference when it comes to style, tones, instrument, whatever.

But I am with you that my preference is the feeling of real, live rock worship music. I like to feel the stage vibrating from the bass and the kick drum. I like the feeling of being surrounded by sound, not just some representation forced through headphones or in-ears. I like feedback between my guitar and my amp. Oh well... my church is not a zero volume stage, but it is headed that way. We are right now at the point of more stage volume being controlled by the desk, meaning smaller amps miked and bass DI-ed. When we are zero volume I will still be there giving my whole heart to it, using my IEMs and modeling amp.

bawdyli'lmonkey
March 31st, 2012, 05:31 PM
I have admittedly struggled myself with this, and I keep coming back to why I am doing this in the first place, which means I am willing to do my second, third, or even last preference when it comes to style, tones, instrument, whatever.

We are right now at the point of more stage volume being controlled by the desk, meaning smaller amps miked and bass DI-ed. When we are zero volume I will still be there giving my whole heart to it, using my IEMs and modeling amp.

At some point it stops being us, though. When the band is all in the system, you'll get to the point where you've got some kid beating on electronic drums with 0 sense of musicality and the sound tech is the only real musician in the venue, adjusting the group while they beat, strum, whisper and scream to their own contentment. I've already experienced a situation where the S.T. didn't think the voices were crescendoing enough so he took it upon himself to grab the faders and help out. You'll also have the instruments getting muted or turned down when they make a mistake because the S.T. decided they were in the way of good mix. All in with no sound source except monitors....?

Its the decline of music, man! :p the exception would be that as much as bass frequencies spread, they really should be DI'ed. No amount of musicality can change the physics of music.

Esaaal
March 31st, 2012, 08:05 PM
I used a Digitech RP50 once with good results. Described as a "cheap toy" even by the salesman who sold it to me, I had no complaints with it. Simple, quiet and small. I made 5 models and had a great time.

Parma_TeleMon
March 31st, 2012, 10:10 PM
I use a traditional pedalboard into and Egnater Rebel 30 combo with a direct out. All the Tubey goodness, zero stage volume. An H&K Redbox could be an excellent solution, too!

One thing to remember: as leaders (and musicians), we normally have authority issues. Learning to work with the parameters given us is part of what helps us continue to grow.

GeetarPlayer
April 2nd, 2012, 03:14 PM
I would stick as close to your current rig as possible, so when you practice at home, jam with your buddies, or play at church, you're using pretty much the same gear. Too many variables otherwise.

Given that, if they are disallowing ISO boxes, then go with an attenuator that has both a "load" setting and a line out. Here (http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_hotplate.html) is one. There is also one called "Alex". Seems boutique... lots of people like it, but there's a waiting list. Google around for these and check out the reviews/opinions.

With this, you still use all of your existing rig except for your speakers/cab. That's my plan if I ever find myself with this restriction.

Actually, you should really have a conversation about the ISO boxes. He's concerned about coloring tone, but expects you to use a modeler? hmmm, which option is going to change your tone more... switching from your amp with pedals over to a modeler, or putting your amp in an ISO box? Is his real motive to get zero backstage volume? Maybe that's it?

guitar dan
April 2nd, 2012, 03:40 PM
I use a traditional pedalboard into and Egnater Rebel 30 combo with a direct out. All the Tubey goodness, zero stage volume. An H&K Redbox could be an excellent solution, too!

One thing to remember: as leaders (and musicians), we normally have authority issues. Learning to work with the parameters given us is part of what helps us continue to grow.

I did the same thing it sounded good. I was happy with the tone, but the amp kept breaking down on me:-(

The church that I play in is headed in that direction too (mandatory DI, in-ear monitors, etc).. I'm still not sure of what I will use.

So far, when I've had to run direct for gigs, I've used:

1. the Pod set to a clean Fender type sound, and used my pedals
2. Roland Cube with pedals. same approach as above
3. I have a Pod XT live but haven't really bonded with it...

BTW- does the church pay for your in-ear monitors?

mrboson
April 2nd, 2012, 03:48 PM
Actually, you should really have a conversation about the ISO boxes. He's concerned about coloring tone, but expects you to use a modeler? hmmm, which option is going to change your tone more... switching from your amp with pedals over to a modeler, or putting your amp in an ISO box? Is his real motive to get zero backstage volume? Maybe that's it?

+1 on this. And not all ISO cabs are created equally. If it is just a speaker in a sealed box, well, no surprise if it sounds boxy or distorted. If your church would be willing to invest in it (I would consider it part of the PA), you could probably research and find some good ISO cab solutions that let you use your own amp/rig and get your sound.

SngleCoil
April 2nd, 2012, 04:16 PM
+1 on this. And not all ISO cabs are created equally. If it is just a speaker in a sealed box, well, no surprise if it sounds boxy or distorted. If your church would be willing to invest in it (I would consider it part of the PA), you could probably research and find some good ISO cab solutions that let you use your own amp/rig and get your sound.

The biggest problem with most iso cabs is that if you are really going to attenuate volume, they pretty much ARE speakers in a sealed box. I have played through 3 different brands and all of them sounded....well constipated for lack of a better term.

For me personally...and please, I am in no way suggesting that my preference is universally best for anyone...I found that I get a significantly better tone and feel out of a POD HD than my amp running into an iso cab. My amp miced up through an open cab and it's no contest from a player's standpoint. I'll take the amp, please! From an audience member's standpoint I don't think they care either way. From a church congregation member's standpoint...they probably would prefer the POD as the way I like to run my amp would be a little loud for the first few rows :twisted:

My experience, though, is that really no matter which solution I end up going with, I always end up sounding like me - for better or worse. Go figure.

mrboson
April 2nd, 2012, 04:35 PM
The biggest problem with most iso cabs is that if you are really going to attenuate volume, they pretty much ARE speakers in a sealed box. I have played through 3 different brands and all of them sounded....well constipated for lack of a better term.

Yes, my personal experience too. But I guess there are options out there.

This video compares two. The Demeter sounds like every other boxy, stifled iso cab I ever heard. The Rivera sounds pretty good to me.
qfsZGoRZi0k

htwheelz67
April 8th, 2012, 12:26 AM
I started using a fractal axe fx ultra, which I bought from a worship leader who bought a new axe fx 2, hands down the best tone and feel I have ever had in 30 years of playing, I am in the process of selling all my amps (except my Matchless for backup) and all my pedals this thing is the be all end all for me its just incredible, its pricey I paid 1700.00 used for mine but to have all the amps and high end effects that it has you would have to spend at least 50k, its hans down the best piece of equipment I have ever bought in my life. I also play in some clubs in another band and the 4 times I used it live I had the other band memebers, and people in the audience telling me how good my tone was and basically I just plug into the PA and have two powered speakers behind me, my biggest compliment came from Michael Shenker who we opened up for and he told me he liked my sound..........that says a lot. I have tried just about every modeler except for the kemper and the Fractal Axe Fx makes them all seem like toys, it feels and reacts and sounds just like a tube amp and you can tweak things that you could never tweak on a real amp, the effects are on par with eventide and tc electronics.

livinblood
April 8th, 2012, 12:48 AM
I would think that using IEM's would be to clean up the stage monitor sound/volume and also allow you to here the mix you want in your ear. I would still want some kind of reference from the other instruments, I wouldn't blast the volume to where all I hear is the IEM.

I wonder what it would be like if the main mix dies in the service but the IEM is still working. Now THATS air guitar baby!

JDO
April 8th, 2012, 01:03 AM
good luck. not to be a baby but i couldn't play in that situation. not that i wouldn't, but i couldn't. i mainly play bass and they tried to do that to me maybe a year or so ago. i couldn't play without an amp. it felt so "fake" that i kept getting off. eventually they let me play though the amp again and haven't tried to take it away from me.

we also have a horn section so we'll never have zero volume either.

again, good luck. sorry i can't offer any help.

Thinlineggman
April 8th, 2012, 01:13 AM
I put my pedals into a DI box straight to the board. Sounds pretty good IMO. But I'm only using my tele, an OD (when it's working) and a Muff.

Gotta have a competent sound guy though, because he is in total control of your EQ unless you have an EQ pedal.

74 Deluxe
April 10th, 2012, 01:04 AM
We don't have a "Stage". We're set up off to the side, took out about six of those half pews, right in front of the pulpit. We use my old school PA, huge Peavey speakers with horns on furniture dollies... we roll em' out before second service. Everything but the Bass player runs thru the board which sets next to me. So I'm singer, guitarist, and FOH... we still use monitors and our amps, but I'm running a splitter to my little Bugera and DI to the board, while the other Guitarist is mic'ed. I WISH we had a budget to allow a more modern set up but this old rig worked many a High School gym in the past, and since we use all our own equipment with a budget of ZERO, I'm grateful I get to play. Some of you BIG BOX churches spend thousands on equipment and all I read are complaints.... "If I can't crank it, I'll quit." "No rock anymore." Sure those IEM's aren't being used by 99% of the touring bands out there because there's no rock, its because they eliminate feedback and allow freedom of movement, and Direct boxes been around longer than alot of us. Think about it. How many knobs to adjust your sound are between you and the speaker it comes out of? A modest pedal board and a direct box or a modeler, and you'll have plenty of tweekage to tailor your sound. We can't all sound like Skillet. But we can play for the Glory of God with what ever we have.

kman900
April 10th, 2012, 02:45 AM
We can't all sound like Skillet. But we can play for the Glory of God with what ever we have.

+1

"Tech Pastor" . . ??? Is he a musician? Tell him that he should care about the service and you take care about the music!

:-)

Jazzerstang
April 25th, 2012, 07:25 PM
I put my pedals into a DI box straight to the board. Sounds pretty good IMO. But I'm only using my tele, an OD (when it's working) and a Muff.

Gotta have a competent sound guy though, because he is in total control of your EQ unless you have an EQ pedal.

Big Muff into a PA? This stuff can be really frustrating. Amp tone is everything. I just want to sound like me. IMO solid body electrics should NOT be plugged directly into a system. A lot of sound people/people not in the know really don't understand this. The amp is like 50% of the instrument. Even if it is just a Champ 600 MIC'D. The music director at my church recommended that I plug directly into the system so everything can be modulated from the booth. I said I understood his thinking, but, no way-- the amp is like the bell on a trombone or the horse hair on a violin bow. I said I would use a SF champ and aim it directly at my head and they can just mic it. guitar tone needs to compliment and be distinctive at the same time-- mixing with the other instruments tones in their own right. I really don't like using pa system monitors-- everyone in the band depends on them so much, I prefer to stretch my ears a little.

Jazzerstang
April 25th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Hey folks,
My church is moving towards zero stage volume and that means IEMs, which kind of defeats the purpose of using my tube amp on stage as my monitor. The question is, what to do? The tech pastor would really like to use amp modeling as a solution instead of iso boxes because even the iso boxes color the tone. I have a pedal board that I have put a lot of time and money into that I would like to still be able to use...so maybe I am looking for just an amp modeling option that would react to pedals the way a real amp would. Any ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? Solutions?

Impossible. No matter how many instruments are dampened, an acoustic drumset will always be heard on the stage. Drumsets in capsules are functional, but look ridiculous. they remind me of this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CXVtm97fWDo/S70qjeJqHoI/AAAAAAAABiQ/H_ZQdAeveA8/s1600/pods.jpg


oh yeah, VDrums are cheesy and don't effectively portray human expression.

just from experience and MHO

Old_Skool_Noma
April 25th, 2012, 10:04 PM
our regular guitarist built a sound damping board that we put in front of the amp for the electric and that takes the projected stage volume down a lot to a manageable level for the sound techs, i have found that when playing bass i need the in ear monitors, the stage monitor for bass is loud, except right in front of the speaker where i am, so i cant hear me but everyone else can, funny how that works so using IEMs for bass has been a blessing for me.
I haven't tried it for electric yet, i doubt i will since i will probably try to use my amp for a little bit of a monitor.

SoVeryTired
April 26th, 2012, 03:37 AM
While we don't have amps on stage, I totally agree that the amp is a vital part of the sound, possibly even more so than the guitar. I've yet to find a guitar that sounds bad through the Hot Rod Deluxe I'm using. I would never plug direct into the system without an amp modeller at the very least, but I'm not personally into them compared to a nice tube amp. As I mentioned above, our solution is to keep the amps off stage and mic them up - all the ampy goodness, none of the annoy-thy-neighbour sound on stage.

With bass I don't have an issue going to the system via DI - bass doesn't seem to lose its sound or character in the same way that guitar does.

Parma_TeleMon
April 26th, 2012, 09:54 PM
I think if I had to resort to modeling again I'd just put a Tech 21 Liverpool or Leeds at the end of my pedalboard. That way all of my pedals remain there and tweakable and I have a pretty good facsimile of Brit amp tone and color to the board.

Old_Skool_Noma
April 26th, 2012, 10:55 PM
I use my zoom 505 II for my bass so I can have a little bit of an eq and I use the crude amp simulator, it works for bass but its nothing compared to the real deal for a guitar.

ebsmith1515
April 27th, 2012, 10:07 AM
This does not help answer any questions, but I have always imagined how funny it would be to see a 'zero stage volume' band (electric drums, no amps) totally rocking out with their in-ear monitors, but with the house speakers off. They are getting the full band sound in their ears, but you would only hear the rubber drum pads being hit and maybe the faint sound of the rhythm player strumming his electric.

SoVeryTired
April 27th, 2012, 10:41 AM
This does not help answer any questions, but I have always imagined how funny it would be to see a 'zero stage volume' band (electric drums, no amps) totally rocking out with their in-ear monitors, but with the house speakers off. They are getting the full band sound in their ears, but you would only hear the rubber drum pads being hit and maybe the faint sound of the rhythm player strumming his electric.

:lol:

guitarzan13
April 27th, 2012, 10:47 AM
This does not help answer any questions, but I have always imagined how funny it would be to see a 'zero stage volume' band (electric drums, no amps) totally rocking out with their in-ear monitors, but with the house speakers off. They are getting the full band sound in their ears, but you would only hear the rubber drum pads being hit and maybe the faint sound of the rhythm player strumming his electric. :lol: :mrgreen:

Texas Picker
April 28th, 2012, 10:49 PM
I've played in big churches that wouldn't allow amps. I used Line6 stuff in those settings. While it sounds OK and probably helps make the sound man's job easier, I think it amp modeling is like sirloin steak in a can. Yeah, its steak, but it just doesn't taste the same as the stuff that is hot off the grill.

Maybe I'm just old school (I prefer wedge monitors to in-ear monitors too)! :razz:

I've played in mega-churches that were televised and worship was planned to the minute and second we started/stopped, the band all stood on risers that moved on & off the stage (while we were on them), etc. But FWIW, some of the best worship I've ever participated in from both a musical and "wow" factor (obviously a subjective statement) was in an old school gym with no practice or song lists (just follow the worship leader and find out what key he's in), horrid acoustics, amps on stage, no drum shield, etc.