are Gretsch's really plywood?

I was looking at one..

Until I heard they were plywood.

why should it matter?

if it sounded nice and i loved the guitar i wouldnt care what it was made from.


in fact, i reckon MDF would be an allright guitar material

Lots of hollow and semi hollow guitars are pressed plywood construction, Gibson 335's are.

Don't know if it's plywood but it's got killer sounds.

120791

Who cares? If it's good enough for the Chet Atkins, Jack White, George Harrison and Eddie Cochran then I'm sure it ill suffice you, me and everybody else in the world.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..

Pro line Gretsches have 3 ply maple bodies and tops or solid spruce tops for the Country club models. The electromatic models have 5 ply bodies. They're great guitars either way.

I saw a Gretsch electromatic in silver sparkle the other day. There was absolutely no paint underneath the lip of the fretboard where it overhangs the body. Is that normal? Looked really weird to me.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..

I think you're missing the point of the responses. It's obvious that you think there's something unusual or substandard about guitars constructed from plywood. This is not the case. You'll find that lots of high-quality acoustic guitars, as well as hollow and semi-hollow electrics are made from plywood. This is not a bad thing.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..



"Plywood" is an inappropriate term here. As has been pointed out, many of the classic archtop hollow-body guitars have used laminates for backs, sides, and tops. I guess you'll just have to leave all the Gretsches, Gibson ES-125s, 330s, 335s, 345s, 355s, etc. to the rest of us. :grin:

Most if not all hollowbody electric guitars are made from a multiply. It reduces feedback and increases the instruments ability to withstand temp changes. I would think you'd have to look into the handmade $8,000 to $10,000 jazz boxes to get an all solid wood electric.

Whatever....if you want to miss out on playing a great guitar, that's your issue.

Fenders are made from two or three pieces of wood glued together, Les Pauls are a piece of maple glued on top of a piece of mahogany.

As stated above, most hollow/semi-hollows are made of a few thin pieces of wood glued together, and they always have been. Doesn't make them any less awesome.

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/500/medium/gretsch_1.jpg

Pro line Gretsches have 3 ply maple bodies and tops or solid spruce tops for the Country club models. The electromatic models have 5 ply bodies. They're great guitars either way.

Thank you for answering in a nice direct way.

*RANT TIME*

For those that acted like I just ran over there puppies.

Last I checked it was my hard earned money I am spending. If I choose NOT to want to spend it on plywood that's my choice. I asked a simple question because the sales guy told me they were plywood. I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

Now if YOUR hard earned money is spend, that's YOUR business.

If YOUR gonna buy me one.. then no I don't care what it's made out of.. it's YOUR money not MINE.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..

*end rant*

Well it was a stupid question and one you could have found out with a simple search,you need to calm down a bit.

Well it was a stupid question and one you could have found out with a simple search,you need to calm down a bit.


That's a direct answer...

I think you're missing the point of everyone's reply. No one's telling you how to spend your money, and no one's attacking you. They were just trying to tell you that laminate body guitars are not a bad thing. A Gretsch is suppose to be plywood to reduce feedback. I can't imagine how bad feed back would be on a solid wood Gretch with Dynasonics (Is that what they're called? The single coil ones..) Anyway, back to the original point. You have no reason to get hostel, no one was insulting you or your choice. Life's too short.

My #1 is a (fancy) plywood Gretsch 1959 Nashville Classic.
Chris Forshage is building me a solid wood (maple/mahogany) guitar with most of the
Gretsch's charms.
Same electronics (TV Jones), Bigsby, nut width (1 3/4), scale (25 1/2), slightly smaller body.
When it arrives, I'll A/B em.
Wonder if the new one will win, lose or draw?
To date, the Gretsch is the best sounding electric guitar I have ever had.
I've gone through a bunch of em', too.

Thank you for answering in a nice direct way.

*RANT TIME*

For those that acted like I just ran over there puppies.

Last I checked it was my hard earned money I am spending. If I choose NOT to want to spend it on plywood that's my choice. I asked a simple question because the sales guy told me they were plywood. I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

Now if YOUR hard earned money is spend, that's YOUR business.

If YOUR gonna buy me one.. then no I don't care what it's made out of.. it's YOUR money not MINE.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..

*end rant*

Hi-

Not challenging your right to spend your money as you wish, your opinions, or being antagonistic in any way. I agree that if you don't like the idea of ply/laminates, that you can take your money elsewhere.

I'm just addressing the point about plywood/laminates in archtops.

The laminates used in fine archtops/bent tops are not the same as hardware store-grade ply. I think that previous posters were just addressing that point, not questioning telling you what to do.

Laminate tops can be made surprisingly thin and responsive. I have a Moll laminate archtop that sounds pretty good to me.

In any case, good luck and I hope you find what you like.

regards,
wemedge

Thank you for answering in a nice direct way.

*RANT TIME*

For those that acted like I just ran over there puppies.

Last I checked it was my hard earned money I am spending. If I choose NOT to want to spend it on plywood that's my choice. I asked a simple question because the sales guy told me they were plywood. I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

Now if YOUR hard earned money is spend, that's YOUR business.

If YOUR gonna buy me one.. then no I don't care what it's made out of.. it's YOUR money not MINE.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..

*end rant*

Can I interest you in some $300 capacitors for your pots good sir - the tone is exquisite

Thank you for answering in a nice direct way.

*RANT TIME*

For those that acted like I just ran over there puppies.

Last I checked it was my hard earned money I am spending. If I choose NOT to want to spend it on plywood that's my choice. I asked a simple question because the sales guy told me they were plywood. I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

Now if YOUR hard earned money is spend, that's YOUR business.

If YOUR gonna buy me one.. then no I don't care what it's made out of.. it's
YOUR money not MINE.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..*end rant*

Laminated tops aren't made of plywood like you'd construct a half pipe from, they're made from sheets of veneer glued up in a mold. Not unlike the process used to make skate decks and you know a hard rock maple deck is strong.

Thank you for answering in a nice direct way.

*RANT TIME*

For those that acted like I just ran over there puppies.

Last I checked it was my hard earned money I am spending. If I choose NOT to want to spend it on plywood that's my choice. I asked a simple question because the sales guy told me they were plywood. I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

Now if YOUR hard earned money is spend, that's YOUR business.

If YOUR gonna buy me one.. then no I don't care what it's made out of.. it's YOUR money not MINE.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..

*end rant*

With respect I think you are missing a subtle distinction here. Gretsch and Gibson do not use plywood as you would know it. They do not go scooting off to Latvia or wherever you get cost effective ply in 8 x 4 sheets.
What they do do is make laminated tops and backs. Why so ? Well its easy , you would struggle to make an archtop from one or two ( Bookmatch ) pieces of solid anything and expect it to remain stable. Yes it can be done but you must use the very very best of slow growth woods for this ( Engleman spruce for example ). These woods cost a kings ransom and are in short supply. You also need bracing and that is. time consuming and costly .
Getting back to Gretsch , they heat press each top as a laminate process but what is interesting is that the plywood you refer to is not really ply as you would know it. It is about 0.16" thick and i woud estimate that 75% of that is a poplar core. the rest is a show veneer , which is what you see on the outside and on the inside of the top is a compensating veneer for strength and stability.
Each top of a 335 or a Falcon etc is laid up on its own and then heat formed and cured to give it its shape.
They have thought this through , its not a cheat process I can assure you.

Frankly your salesman only displayed his lack of knowledge and sowed seeds in your mind that are swaying you off of some of the best guitars ever made.

Hope that helps M

Oh my gosh. Sit down and play one. You will realize that a Gretsch is pure magic.

With respect I think you are missing a subtle distinction here. Gretsch and Gibson do not use plywood as you would know it. They do not go scooting off to Latvia or wherever you get cost effective ply in 8 x 4 sheets.
What they do do is make laminated tops and backs. Why so ? Well its easy , you would struggle to make an archtop from one or two ( Bookmatch ) pieces of solid anything and expect it to remain stable. Yes it can be done but you must use the very very best of slow growth woods for this ( Engleman spruce for example ). These woods cost a kings ransom and are in short supply. You also need bracing and that is. time consuming and costly .
Getting back to Gretsch , they heat press each top as a laminate process but what is interesting is that the plywood you refer to is not really ply as you would know it. It is about 0.16" thick and i woud estimate that 75% of that is a poplar core. the rest is a show veneer , which is what you see on the outside and on the inside of the top is a compensating veneer for strength and stability.
Each top of a 335 or a Falcon etc is laid up on its own and then heat formed and cured to give it its shape.
They have thought this through , its not a cheat process I can assure you.

Frankly your salesman only displayed his lack of knowledge and sowed seeds in your mind that are swaying you off of some of the best guitars ever made.

Hope that helps M

Not a subtle distinction at all, IMO....

I imagine the laminates respond better to changes in humidity & temperature than a thin piece of wood too.

Steinway's are made with laminates too, BTW....

I was looking at one..

Until I heard they were plywood.

Lee Harvey, don't think in terms of plywood like you see in Lowe's or Home Depot. As stated above, many guitars are made of multiply wood. Multiply wood is used in many applications. If you look at exposed wooden trusses you will see multiply laminates. A lot of wood floors are made of engineered wood which is layered or laminated wood. Again, as mentioned above the laminate adds strength and keeps the wood from warping.
I own an old Gretsch which has a "plywood", laminated top. It's a very cool sounding archtop guitar. I have to admit that when I learned it was made of plywood I thought it was cheap. Again, it's our concept of what "plywood" is.

Not a subtle distinction at all, IMO....

I imagine the laminates respond better to changes in humidity & temperature than a thin piece of wood too.

Steinway's are made with laminates too, BTW....

Understatement and irony rolled into one small word. It was intentional.

I see. Solid maple.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..

You're missing the point I'm trying to raise. You obviously think plywood is in someway not good, when in fact I'm giving examples of why it's fine... I mean, solid gold is nicer than maple, but I wouldn't want to make a guitar neck from it. :')

I see. Solid maple.

When I saw the OP's name, I wondered when Jack Ruby would show up...

That's not plywood, son...that's a high-quality laminate!

Tucten...have you no shame?

LMAO!!!!!!

My #1 is a (fancy) plywood Gretsch 1959 Nashville Classic.
To date, the Gretsch is the best sounding electric guitar I have ever had.
I've gone through a bunch of em', too.


Best sounding guitar I have is a 73 Gretsch Country Gentleman Chet Atkins signature model with original frets.

I also have solids for use on gigs (74 LP Custom, 68 tele, Epi SG).

As long as I was getting applause I never cared what they were made out of but never pay more than $1,000 approx for an axe to gig with.

The tele cost $325 new, the Les Paul was a trade for my Norman 12 string ($230). Guess I came out ahead on that one even with the SD pickups and fret job I had to do.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..

*end rant*

What colour would you like? It'll be cheaper than anger management classes.

The point I believe you've missed here is you are indirectly discrediting guitars that many members here know and love (and the world knows and loves) merely for their construction techniques, not their merits.

I know you didn't mean to come across this way - but by ranting about "plywood" in such a derogatory manner you've been lucky to recieve such amiable replies, IMO.

And lastly, who is going to hand-carve this top and back for the price your hard-earned money is willing to afford? Not someone in the USA my friend. And I have a strong feeling that you prefer American-made guitars as much as you dislike plywood.

Interesting that this should come up, because I just bought a new Gretsch Duo Jet, because I played one off a rack at a local shop and its playability and tone impressed the living hell out of me. Have been pretty much all Fender/Gibson guy my whole life until this one came along. It looks sort of OK too.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..

That's certainly your choice. But all of the Gibson ESs are plywood, just about all archtops that aren't carved are plywood, etc. Amost all Gretsches are plywood. It's been used for decades. Even some boutique guitars are plywood.

For electric guitars, many (not all) think plywood sounds better than solid wood. The standard jazz guitar for many years was the ES-175, which was plywood.

Oh mah gawd guys my tele is made from a daggone plank of maple freaking bolted on to a durn butcher-block-style plank made from a couple-o pieces of ash there isn't even any special tone glue used to mount the neck and it's flat and stuff not turned back like fancee guitars are supposed to be or some such! Well tickle my toes gingerboy that just ain't something i'm-a gonna stand for anymore chuckles! Fender is gonna get a piece of my mind and they're a-gonna git it good man!

----
aww poo, imagine that in allcaps and it's a heck of a lot more fun (durn auto-correct!)

Why did I read this far?

Why did I read this far?

+1
Has anybody else noticed that the signal-to-noise ratio has gone down on this site recently?

The ratio has not changed, but it is now a laminated signal.

I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.


If you are looking in the $3K range, you are going to have a hard time finding something that is not a laminate.

The reason is that there are only two ways to make a hollow or semi-hollow top and back. They can either press the shapes into may layers of thin wood and then laminate them, or they can be carved out of maple or other wood.

Hand carving is a very time-intensive process, so to get one you are looking at the higher end models from Benedetto, Buscarino and others. Buscarinos start at $9,000. Benedetto's $4,000 and $4,500 guitars are laminates and you have to get about twice that to get carved bodies.

Jim

And lastly, who is going to hand-carve this top and back for the price your hard-earned money is willing to afford? Not someone in the USA my friend. And I have a strong feeling that you prefer American-made guitars as much as you dislike plywood.

There are several makers who build hand carve guitars: Buscarino, Benedetto, Bill Moll, etc. Lowest price I've seen is $9,000 and many are in the $20,000 range.

Jim

lol wut?

"That Great Gretsch Sound" for what - about 6 decades? Who knew?

Besides, the reason folks on here aren't letting you have your way with your rant is that, plain and simple, you are putting forth the proposition that laminate guitars are poorly made- I think you compared them to something that marihuana enthusiasts would ramp on while skateboarding.

You have heard that you aren't correct, and that laminate wood construction has been used in some of the best known guitars of all time and those guitars have been played by some of the best known guitarists. Your assertion that this represents poor quality has been shown not to be correct, no matter what you or the marihuana enthusiast who works at Guitar Center told you.

No one cares how you spend your money... but the point of this forum, and ones like it, is to spread information, not to let people rant about things they don't understand.

Funny you mention this.... I was at Home Depot the other day and a guy was struggling with a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I offered to help and asked what he was using it for and he said he worked for Gretsch and they just ran out of material... I promptly went home and destroyed my G5122!

Kidding aside, it's not the same thing, don't worry. It's a stretch, but with this kind of reasoning you could say that any guitar made from more than one piece of wood is plywood.

Love my Gretsch, don't be turned off by this, you might miss out. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to spend their money and maybe I missed something but I didn't see anyone else here doing it either.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..

Lee, don't buy any Gibson ES-5's, ES-175's, 225's, 330's, 335's, 345's, 355's, Lucille's and any and all of the variants of the aforementioned offered by other companies as well because they're all - you guessed it Lee - PLYWOOD.:mrgreen:

Wood "moves". Plywood = dimensional stability. I wonder if I build a thinline out of marine grade....will it be waterproof?

Paul Gilbert had Ibanez make him a guitar out of builders grade ply with the stencils still on it. A very cool guitar. This is the only picture I could find and it doesn't do it justice. The f holes are painted on.

As an ex maker of high end furniture I can say we used "ply" as a base on many pieces. we normally covered the ply with a high grade veneer and we used it for a couple of reasons. The first is strength as the various layers of the "ply" has the grain running north - south on one layer and east - west the next with north - south on top. This gives the ply a huge amount of strength and flexibility. The 2nd reason is pure economics. If your using something like padouk which costs and arm and a leg it makes it cheaper to use a veneer in some areas. Everything else is just snobbery!

There are several makers who build hand carve guitars: Buscarino, Benedetto, Bill Moll, etc. Lowest price I've seen is $9,000 and many are in the $20,000 range.

Jim

That said ... Shhhh, I've been known to buy a CNC carved spruce top plate or two before. :mrgreen:

But still - for a decent grade of wood you're looking at $500+ just for raw materials for the front and back before the CNC is even woken up.

I wouldn't get out of bed for a $3000 archtop :twisted:.

There's absolutely nothing at all intrinsically wrong with a guitar made of plywood simply because it's made of plywood.

I've owned some plywood guitars that played and sounded great.

lol, call it plywood and its cheap

call plywood laminate and its marketability go up many notches . . .


this thread is a good case on human perception . . .


if a luthier knows what they are doing, even with laminate / plywood they can make something with awesome tone.

and if gretschs sound good (I like them) and quality is good (most I've seen are good) then :confused:


i'll bet a million that blind fold most people and play a gretsch and say its solid, then play the same gretsch (amp cable same etc) and say its plywood, they'd think the the first 1 sounds much better.

Plywood must be alot cheaper in China, only $350 from GFS. :wink:

http://www.guitarfetish.com/assets/images/970to.jpg

I think you're missing the point of the responses. It's obvious that you think there's something unusual or substandard about guitars constructed from plywood. This is not the case. You'll find that lots of high-quality acoustic guitars, as well as hollow and semi-hollow electrics are made from plywood. This is not a bad thing.

I agree, also if one wants to get technical about biology, if you look at the alternating layers of late wood and early wood in a cross section of solid wood, you will see natures version of plywood. That's right, I said it , all wood is plywood except for maybe evergreens which seem to be homogeneous throughout the cross section. Get Bruce Hoadleys All About Wood book and you will become very informed about this stuff we build guitars from. Nature uses glue to keep all the cells together and the layers are also glued together with natures glue ~ Lignin. So while I also love solid wood, once you get down to the cellular level it's much less clear what is or isn't so solid.
Of course my favorite wood is Osage Orange which is deciduous, but the grain is so interlocked its like woven rope. Not sure why it's not used more often for necks. That wood is virtually unbreakable! I bet you could reduce a drum kit to dust with a neck made of the stuff, even when it cracks, good luck tearing the pieces apart. The wood always springs back to it's original form, That's why Bow makers use it.

They guy is ignorant and rude. The complete opposite to most people on here, who are still adding helpful and informative replies! Has he been back? Has he thanked anybody?

Oh well.
I love my Maple Laminated G5122 DC.
It is still actually my best guitar....for now.
If you call the 4 maple plies over the two walnut plies of my drum kit or my maple Gretsch plywood again...
I have owned plywood instruments in years gone past. There IS a difference.

troll methinks:twisted:

They guy is ignorant and rude. The complete opposite to most people on here, who are still adding helpful and informative replies! Has he been back? Has he thanked anybody?

these kinds of threads are the best way to get interesting information. nothing brings out good information from knowledgeable people like an ignorant doofus

i would love to have any of the better es models.

gibson does make a solid maple top es336. it is aboout 3300 us dollars. here is some info.

The Custom Shop CS-336 — Orville Gibson's Dream
Gibson's Custom, Art, Historic division provides an atmosphere for a select group of inspired artisans to carry on Gibson's century-old tradition of creating exquisite, investment quality instruments that represent the highest standards of imaginative design and masterful craftsmanship.

The Gibson CS-336 represents the fulfillment of a goal set forth over 100 years ago by Orville Gibson. The mahogany back, sides and centerblock of the CS-336 are tonally carved from a single block of wood (this single-piece construction was one of Orville's original goals) and, when joined to the carved maple top, create a guitar with unsurpassed resonance and woody tone. Its scaled-down body size and slim-taper neck allow for more comfortable playing with no compromise in tone.


Gibson CS-336 Features:
Color: Vintage Sunburst

Body Type: Semi-hollow

Neck Wood: 1-piece mahogany

Neck Shape: 1960 slim taper neck profile

Top Wood: Figured solid maple top

Back Wood: Tonally carved mahogany

Side Wood: Tonally carved mahogany

Machine Heads: Vintage tulip tuners

Fingerboard: Rosewood

No. of Frets: 22

Scale Length: 24-3/4"

Position Markers: Pearloid dot inlays

Pickups: '57 Classic humbucking

Controls: 2 volume, 2 tone,

Pickup Switching: 3-way selector switch

Bridge/Tailpiece: ABR-1 bridge, stopbar tailpiece

Hardware: Nickel

Case: Custom Shop case, (certificate of authenticity, custom care kit)

My favorite cobbled together piece of plywood crap...

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x23/jonathanbennett120/CCC10.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x23/jonathanbennett120/CCC06.jpg

^^ That's a beauty.

Made of plywood, best guitar I've ever played.

Here is my plywood p.o.s Gibson Es 175 skate ramp thing:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l482/daveleon/2-18-12022.jpg
stays in tune better than any guitar I've ever had...

I was looking at one..

Until I heard they were plywood.

...seriously?

Sounds like a "troll" comment to me, and really implies that the OP knows nothing at all about how hollow body guitars in general are constructed.

Can we PLEASE stop saying PLYWOOD?!?!?!?
That's mother-of-skateboard-ramp.

I care that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..

So the Eric Clapton Crossroads ES 355, worth £9999 here (http://www.limitededitionandspecialistguitars.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=16) is not worth your time or effort because of its construction techniques? Last person I heard using such an argument was Ed Roman (RIP) and he ended his days operating out of a small shack on waste ground somwhere apparently....

Now what arbitrary reasoning makes you entitled to a better guitar?

Thank you for answering in a nice direct way.

*RANT TIME*

For those that acted like I just ran over there puppies.

Last I checked it was my hard earned money I am spending. If I choose NOT to want to spend it on plywood that's my choice. I asked a simple question because the sales guy told me they were plywood. I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

Now if YOUR hard earned money is spend, that's YOUR business.

If YOUR gonna buy me one.. then no I don't care what it's made out of.. it's YOUR money not MINE.

So until YOU buy me one get off my back on how I choose to spend or not to spend MY money..

*end rant*

8UqEV3dWMh8

fCVHpnixj88

take a look at the Hofner build video and you may change your mind about plywood
guitar construction. it's not a bad thing at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCOycca1ezo

Can we PLEASE stop saying PLYWOOD?!?!?!?
That's mother-of-skateboard-ramp.HA! That right there is the best thing to come out of this thread!

Obvious troll is obvious.

do you think this issue really comes down to how acoustic guitars are marketd.. solid wood acoustic cost more, why im not sure. so, it gives the impresion the laminated ones are poor sounding. i have to disagree. iv heard some great sounding laminated acoustics.. and yes, they age too. its all relative. i think we can blame marketing on how we look at laminated guitars. just a opinion which really means nothing since all ill ever be able to afford is a solid top, laminated acoustic, which i did buy. and it sounds great. ( the feed back has to be a big improvement is solid ones do indeed feed back ore ) sorry, i just do not trust marketing. from what i use to think from what i have been learning to build my own. blah on them. i so not even bother to buy guitar magazine any more. i just read the free online one.
chris.

Some old plywood jobs that live in my house:

A 1952 ES 350, a 1953 ES 175, a 1964 Single (Hot Rodded) Anniversary, and a 2005 Double Anniversary.

You should just burn those for warmth this winter. Or maybe start the barbecue this summer with them or something... it doesn't matter. You're fooling yourself, kid! Don't you know those are plywood?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlw4AnIX1rn1xxfo1_250.gif

take a look at the Hofner build video and you may change your mind about plywood
guitar construction. it's not a bad thing at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCOycca1ezo

Thanks for posting that link.Haven't seen that before.Seriously,I could watch those factory clips all day!

Some old plywood jobs that live in my house:

A 1952 ES 350, a 1953 ES 175, a 1964 Single (Hot Rodded) Anniversary, and a 2005 Double Anniversary.

You'll have to send those guitars down to the skate park for proper use!!!!! It's a sin to use that crap material for a git-fiddle!!!

It's pretty obvious that this Lee guy is just trolling:P

I got an Uncle from Chicago, he responds exactly like that if he doesn't like the way you answer or say something to him. I'm convinced it's a Chicago thing. Got one in Jersey thats even worse tho... Go figure.

If you are looking in the $3K range, you are going to have a hard time finding something that is not a laminate.

The reason is that there are only two ways to make a hollow or semi-hollow top and back. They can either press the shapes into may layers of thin wood and then laminate them, or they can be carved out of maple or other wood.

Hand carving is a very time-intensive process, so to get one you are looking at the higher end models from Benedetto, Buscarino and others. Buscarinos start at $9,000. Benedetto's $4,000 and $4,500 guitars are laminates and you have to get about twice that to get carved bodies.

Jim

Sorry if this answer is a dupe, but there's at least one company out there building an all solid-wood, carved archtop: Eastman. Played their 335 copy, the T185MX, and it's a killer. Drop-dead gorgeous woods and wood binding, great set of pickups, super comfy neck, all for under $2K out the door. Honestly, I've played 61XX-series Gretsches, Gibby 335 and 339 and this blew them all out of the water in terms of sound and playability. They did some neat stuff with the center block to reduce weight and improve top response without giving up the feedback resistance that a 335-style body gives you. Really clever.

Can we PLEASE stop saying PLYWOOD?!?!?!?
That's mother-of-skateboard-ramp.

HA! That right there is the best thing to come out of this thread!

You can say that again! :lol:

Some old plywood jobs that live in my house:

A 1952 ES 350, a 1953 ES 175, a 1964 Single (Hot Rodded) Anniversary, and a 2005 Double Anniversary.


...how'd you ever manage to get stuck with all that CRAP? :rolleyes:

I was going to buy one until I discovered they're made with white glue. I used to put that on my fingers, let it dry, roll it off and pretend it was boogers. No way am I going to spend good money on a booguitar.

I was looking at one..

Until I heard they were plywood.


There is plywood of many different quality level. Gretsch uses high quality laminated wood, as does Gibson (ES-175, ES-335, etc.), and many other brands, not to be mixed up with your cheap everyday plywood.:wink:

Interesting info/conversation/education--thanks to all.

Along these same lines of conversation, I've been wondering for a very long time..... does anyone know if the "ply" wood laminate construction used to build the more affodable $350 GFS hollow-body guitars or the ones from Epiphone differ any from materials used in the ply laminate construction of the wood used to build the Gretsch hollow-body guitars, or the Gibson hollow-bodies (335, etc).

I understand that none of the guitars makers use the kind of ply that's used to make skateboard ramps and I know that part of the additional cost for the high dollar-guitars is for the "name" and for nitro finish (where applicable), and for better hardware, etc. But, as far as the sheets of wood that make up the actual plies that the body of the guitar is constructed of....is there any difference???

Another way to ask the question: If I have examples of a 335 from Gibson ($2000+) and one from Epiphone ($350), If I take away the headstock shape, the finish and the high end parts (and discount the scarf joint at the neck).....am I left holding the same guitar bodies?

Thanks for reply.

I was looking at one..

Until I heard they were plywood.

It should only matter in guitars which have no pickups. If you get a fully acoustic archtop with no pickups, then only go for solid top.

The pickup pretty much makes the solid arched top vs. laminated arched top a mute point. Actually the greater vibration in a solid top will make an archtop feedback with the addition of pickups. Like one has said, look at the legendary Gibson ES-335.

Another way to ask the question: If I have examples of a 335 from Gibson ($2000+) and one from Epiphone ($350), If I take away the headstock shape, the finish and the high end parts (and discount the scarf joint at the neck).....am I left holding the same guitar bodies?

Thanks for reply.

Yes, mostly.

One place where the Gibson will be better besides parts is the fret work. Epihphones are OK but Gibsons are somewhat better on frets. A good player could make both sound equally good and if outfitted with same pickups, they could make the two sound identical.

In terms of build the Epiphones are great instruments. However, with the Gibson label on the headstock, not only will the guitar in the short run retain a good percentage of its value, it will possibly go up in value in the long run.

Another way to ask the question: If I have examples of a 335 from Gibson ($2000+) and one from Epiphone ($350), If I take away the headstock shape, the finish and the high end parts (and discount the scarf joint at the neck).....am I left holding the same guitar bodies?

Thanks for reply.

Interesting reading: http://misc.msorensen.net/laminates.html

Don't forget that there are different construction methods for putting together that plywood, er...laminate, which some would say also affect the tone. Is it X- braced? Is it trestle braced? What is the bracing made of? Is there a sound post? Is the laminate 3 layer? 5-layer? All of these things (and a myriad of others) will affect the tone of a guitar....whether one is better than another is purely subjective and YMMV.

I've just picked up a plywood Gretsch 5120 myself....from what I read, it is a 5-layer plywood...<<cough>>...laminate body with a sound post. All I know is that I love the way it plays and sounds and right now, out of 13 guitars at my fingertips, it is the one I am dying to get home to and hold in my arms and play!

:mrgreen: The OP should definitely not buy a Gretsch. I doubt he could appreciate it, anyway.

Lots of hollow and semi hollow guitars are pressed plywood construction, Gibson 335's are.


In fact, regardless of price level with this type of guitar laminate is the norm rather than the exception. The reasons for that are the same reasons a builder of anything uses when choosing his materials. Laminate tone woods are not used in the construction of thin line and semi hollow body guitars simply because the are less expensive. There are very good reasons other than that for their use.

1. For a thin line electric guitar a laminate top serves the design purpose almost if not just as well as one made of solid wood. For illustration purposes lets use the example of a Martin D 28 flat top acoustic that has a bear claw solid spruce top with optimal grain density and perfectly scalloped bracing. It sounds like a dream. Now lets imagine that we built that same guitar using the same wood but place a 6" wide solid mahogany board the full length of the body and glue it to the top and back. I think we can all agree that would pretty much cancel the ability of that Martins top to resonate. In addition the vibration of a guitars top happens primarily in the center and decreases to zero going towards the perimeter. When, (as in the case of a semi hollow guitar) the top and back are glued rigidly to a solid board the majority of the vibrating area isn't vibrating at all. It's not that top vibration doesn't effect tone on a thin line guitar, it certainly does. It's that given the guitars design the importance of top vibration is much closer to that of a solid body than a flat top acoustic.

2. Even given the fairly marginal amount of top resonance thin line guitars possess feed back is still a huge problem since they are designed to be played at high volumes. There is one school of thought that believes the use of laminates aids builders in their efforts to control that.

3. Another benefit to the use of laminate tops is strength. That is due to something engineers and designers call "shear value". Take a thin piece of wood and try to break it across the grain. Then try to break it with the grain. Which grain direction shows more resistance? With laminate tops the layered grains are run in opposite directions and therefore are much stronger than solid wood tops.

4. Finally there is the tone consideration. The common belief is that solid wood tops automatically sound better than laminate wood tops and, with flat top acoustic guitars that is absolutely true. But, what defines better? For me better means," that it produce the tone I expect". Laminate tops on semi acoustic guitars is not something that manufacturers spontaneously decided to do for cost cutting purposes. Their use is something that evolved over time to the point that to many it has become the material that produces the tone they expect to hear from thin line and semi acoustic electric guitars in general.

My humble opinion is that (on balance) and, in this case, the use of laminates by guitar makers is simply the best choice of materials for this design.

Aren't Rickenbackers solid semi-hollows? CNC carved, if I recall correctly.

In fact, regardless of price level with this type of guitar laminate is the norm rather than the exception. The reasons for that are the same reasons a builder of anything uses when choosing his materials. Laminate tone woods are not used in the construction of thin line and semi hollow body guitars simply because the are less expensive. There are very good reasons other than that for their use.

1. For a thin line electric guitar a laminate top serves the design purpose almost if not just as well as one made of solid wood. For illustration purposes lets use the example of a Martin D 28 flat top acoustic that has a bear claw solid spruce top with optimal grain density and perfectly scalloped bracing. It sounds like a dream. Now lets imagine that we built that same guitar using the same wood but place a 6" wide solid mahogany board the full length of the body and glue it to the top and back. I think we can all agree that would pretty much cancel the ability of that Martins top to resonate. In addition the vibration of a guitars top happens primarily in the center and decreases to zero going towards the perimeter. When, (as in the case of a semi hollow guitar) the top and back are glued rigidly to a solid board the majority of the vibrating area isn't vibrating at all. It's not that top vibration doesn't effect tone on a thin line guitar, it certainly does. It's that given the guitars design the importance of top vibration is much closer to that of a solid body than a flat top acoustic.

2. Even given the fairly marginal amount of top resonance thin line guitars possess feed back is still a huge problem since they are designed to be played at high volumes. There is one school of thought that believes the use of laminates aids builders in their efforts to control that.

3. Another benefit to the use of laminate tops is strength. That is due to something engineers and designers call "shear value". Take a thin piece of wood and try to break it across the grain. Then try to break it with the grain. Which grain direction shows more resistance? With laminate tops the layered grains are run in opposite directions and therefore are much stronger than solid wood tops.

4. Finally there is the tone consideration. The common belief is that solid wood tops automatically sound better than laminate wood tops and, with flat top acoustic guitars that is absolutely true. But, what defines better? For me better means," that it produce the tone I expect". Laminate tops on semi acoustic guitars is not something that manufacturers spontaneously decided to do for cost cutting purposes. Their use is something that evolved over time to the point that to many it has become the material that produces the tone they expect to hear from thin line and semi acoustic electric guitars in general.

My humble opinion is that (on balance) and, in this case, the use of laminates by guitar makers is simply the best choice of materials for this design.

Excellent Post.

+1

I'm willing to take all of your PoS skateboard ramp guitars off your hands, even those rubbish White Falcons that no guitar con-a-sewer would be seen dead with, completely free of charge. Send them to me, I'll even pay the postage.

No need to thank me.

Informative thread actually. I learned some stuff.

I have to wonder what the OP's dealer was tryng to sell at the time. Obviously not a Gretsch.
Don

Get your plywood archtops while you can, in future they'll all be alternate layers of richlite and baked alaska.

I'm with Lee Harvey on this one - no plywood for me - in fact, I don't want a joint of any kind. Just whittle me a guitar from a single big ole piece of mahogany, thank you.

I didn't believe a 3 thousand dollar guitar would be made out of something I used to make skate ramps out of.

I have toilet paper racks made out of solid wood. That doesn't make solid wood unsuitable for a guitar.

This plywood Gibson is just so jubilant ... er, happy, um, joyous ... ebullient ... um, no - I just can't find the right word to describe it! :mrgreen:

Happy and rainbows ... what's that word I'm looking for? :lol:

http://www.gibson.com/Files/USA/SGs/Zoot-SG/Batched/SGZTRWCH1-Features-TuningKey.jpg

Don't knock it 'til you try it...I happen to OWN one of those...and it makes an EXCELLENT "heavy rock" guitar. I can go out and play any other guitar that I own, and not get one single comment upon the guitar....but, if I take the Zoot Suit out of the case, someone ALWAYS comments about that "cool" guitar....so, it obviously "puts on the show"! It's only real weakness is that its hot pickups are mostly suited for rock and metal type rock...it's not all that versatile....

....and, its appearance is definitely, shall I say...."polarizing". :lol:

This plywood Gibson is just so jubilant ... er, happy, um, joyous ... ebullient ... um, no - I just can't find the right word to describe it! :mrgreen:

Happy and rainbows ... what's that word I'm looking for? :lol:

http://www.gibson.com/Files/USA/SGs/Zoot-SG/Batched/SGZTRWCH1-Features-TuningKey.jpg

"Plywood" is an inappropriate term here. As has been pointed out, many of the classic archtop hollow-body guitars have used laminates for backs, sides, and tops. I guess you'll just have to leave all the Gretsches, Gibson ES-125s, 330s, 335s, 345s, 355s, etc. to the rest of us. :grin:

Don't forget 175's, 350's, trini lopez's standard and custom, tal farlows, herb ellis models, barney kessels, All chet atkins models both gibson and gretsch. and every hollowbody gretsch ever put a pickup in.

leaving super 400's, L-5's, Byrdlands,Johnny Smith's, Super 5's but beware, many have Laminated backs so they can't possibly sound good either.

Oooor, you can judge them on their individual merits. Laminated construction is not the end of the world.

I think the OP got mad and ran off.

I apologize. I was having a bad day..

I took the comments the wrong way..

Well , here my plywood abonimation ;-)
Lee you are among friends here. The story behind mine was , back in 2006, me and some business friends set some sales/profit goals for our businesses. If we hit them we would reward ourselves.
One guy wanted an F-250 Pick up
One wanted BMW
One wanted a guitar. I starting shopping in Late January, going to GC every couple weeks playing all sorts of guitars. I thought I'd fall in love with a PRS McCarty. Never found one that I fell in love with. Finally fell in love with the Gretsch 6120 Brian Setzer in Green.
All three of us hit our goals, only one wife allowed him to by his prize. I took the pick guard off to show off the wood as soon as I brought her home.

I like that green...

Very very nice color

Well, you kind of came here looking for a fight, I think, not a discussion. It would be like someone posting they were considering a Tele until they found out it was a bolt on neck. I could see someone having a wrong opinion that a bolt on neck is a sign of cheapness...but we know that to be wrong (maybe it's cheaper to manufacture, but it's also part of the recipe we love). Same thing here.

Of course if you are worried about the top freely resonating as much as possible, you'd be better off looking for a jazzbox with a floating neck pickup first, before you start worrying about a laminated top. THEN you could spend the $6000 for an entry level solid carved top jazz box if you still had concerns. It's a free world. But Chet Atkins, Duane Eddy, George Harrison and countless others have managed to make righteous sounds on a laminated guitar.

I completely worded everything wrong...

It's my fault. I should have waited till I wasn't already pissy

Well I'm glad we've got all that behind us. But, being the blatant opportunist that I am I still want to show off my laminate guitars.

Lee, you've already appologised once. If that ain't good enough tell em all to take a hike. None of this stuff is all that important anyway.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/beachbum47/GRETCH/FMT013.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/beachbum47/IBANEZ/FMT015.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/beachbum47/GIBSON%20ES137/LP058.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/beachbum47/YAMAHA/FMT003.jpg

I completely worded everything wrong...

It's my fault. I should have waited till I wasn't already pissy



Look at it this way: At least you started a thread that received #104 posts :!:

:mrgreen:

....so....now are you going to consider that Gretsch? :twisted: :wink:

(Further apologies not needed. :razz: )

: ) my hollowbody

121736

Your checkbook, buy what makes you happy.

While you're shopping check out this builder:Blue Belly Guitars (http://www.bluebellyguitars.com/). Never played one but they look pretty sweet...

Why did I read this far?

Because this is where the really good responses start showing up. :mrgreen:

FWIW, I have a Martin 000-1R with laminated back and sides.

I was looking at one..

Until I heard they were plywood.


This is what kills me about this forum.

My custom shop ES345 made to '61 spec.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/billybuck_2006/534cba2c.jpg

Laminate guitars have been around for years.


My 1954 Gretsch Duo Jet is laminate wood top with a piece of plastic 'nitron' as the top layer! They went to straight laminate wood after '57

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/billybuck_2006/4a86bddc.jpg

I was going to buy one until I discovered they're made with white glue. I used to put that on my fingers, let it dry, roll it off and pretend it was boogers. No way am I going to spend good money on a booguitar.

Perfect. Well played.

This if from Roger Sadowsky's site where he's discussing his Jim Hall model archtop:

Why is the guitar made of laminated wood instead of solid wood?
a) Jim Hall’s D’Aquisto is made of laminated maple.

b) Jim’s previous guitar was an ES-175 which is also a maple laminate guitar.

c) Jim and I (and many other players) believe that a laminated top sounds superior to a solid wood top when played through an amplifier, with less feedback as well. Of the original prototypes, one was built with a 5-ply maple top, and the other with a spruce top. The 5-ply maple was the clear winner when played through an amp.

I have been successful in designing a top and back that is considerably thinner than any other laminates available. The result is greater acoustic resonance without any sacrifice in feedback resistance.

The "cheap" Benedettos are plywood. As you can tell from this video the stigma around them is real - not much mention in this about lamination...

3uipbCj-74k

And the fact that the OP has only just found out that so many guitars are ply, shows it's not something manufacturers have been advertising.

I've never seen a sticker on a new gibson that said, "LAMINATED TOP FOR EXTRA TONE!"

Honestly though, these days with CNC machines it's probably more expensive to laminate a top than it is to carve one - especially from a paint grade wood. Laminating is labour-intensive.

It doesn't matter what they're made from, as long as it sounds great, and you're happy when you play it.

There are several makers who build hand carve guitars: Buscarino, Benedetto, Bill Moll, etc. Lowest price I've seen is $9,000 and many are in the $20,000 range.

Jim

I think this shows just how far downstream from the `Golden Age ` we`ve come. I can`t believe how many people LEAPT to plywoods defense!
WHY? ? ?

Are we so used to swallowing a guitar makers rationale for cutting costs that we have lost reason? ? ? is this the age of Faith Based Luthiery? ? ?
( then again, on the capacitor threads, maybe that`s not even funny!)

I want a solid top on my acoustic -why would a plywood top be better there? ? It TOLERABLE on yer electrics beCAUSE they`re electrics!

What started this off was GRETSCH -and we know that the top end gretsches-your brain setzer, Rev. Horton Heats, etc are made by a different manufacturer than the rest - (heritage in Michigan used to, I dunno who does now -and I think there`s something WRONG/dishonest with that, just like the two teer ( or in fenders case, 8 teer) system stinks!)

The top of the line plywood gretsch is going to be better than the balsa wood and chinese toothpaste one for sure, but probably for alot of reasons besides materials.

I think this shows just how far downstream from the `Golden Age ` we`ve come. I can`t believe how many people LEAPT to plywoods defense!
WHY? ? ?

Are we so used to swallowing a guitar makers rationale for cutting costs that we have lost reason? ? ? is this the age of Faith Based Luthiery? ? ?
( then again, on the capacitor threads, maybe that`s not even funny!)

I want a solid top on my acoustic -why would a plywood top be better there? ? It TOLERABLE on yer electrics beCAUSE they`re electrics!

What started this off was GRETSCH -and we know that the top end gretsches-your brain setzer, Rev. Horton Heats, etc are made by a different manufacturer than the rest - (heritage in Michigan used to, I dunno who does now -and I think there`s something WRONG/dishonest with that, just like the two teer ( or in fenders case, 8 teer) system stinks!)

The top of the line plywood gretsch is going to be better than the balsa wood and chinese toothpaste one for sure, but probably for alot of reasons besides materials.

Pretty much nailed it on the head w/ this one. Acoustics are a whole different animal, and I don't really care what's on the headstock; that top better be SOLID! :lol:

You had me until "yer".
I think this shows just how far downstream from the `Golden Age ` we`ve come. I can`t believe how many people LEAPT to plywoods defense!
WHY? ? ?

Are we so used to swallowing a guitar makers rationale for cutting costs that we have lost reason? ? ? is this the age of Faith Based Luthiery? ? ?
( then again, on the capacitor threads, maybe that`s not even funny!)

I want a solid top on my acoustic -why would a plywood top be better there? ? It TOLERABLE on yer electrics beCAUSE they`re electrics!

What started this off was GRETSCH -and we know that the top end gretsches-your brain setzer, Rev. Horton Heats, etc are made by a different manufacturer than the rest - (heritage in Michigan used to, I dunno who does now -and I think there`s something WRONG/dishonest with that, just like the two teer ( or in fenders case, 8 teer) system stinks!)

The top of the line plywood gretsch is going to be better than the balsa wood and chinese toothpaste one for sure, but probably for alot of reasons besides materials.

Eastman has a non cut acoustic archtop that has a solid top. If glue and lamination gives you fits, you could mount a p/u on one of these. i can't believe how good these sound unplugged, and for 1100.00 street, you'll love it.

I think this shows just how far downstream from the `Golden Age ` we`ve come. I can`t believe how many people LEAPT to plywoods defense!
WHY? ? ?


Plywood guitars are from the "Golden Age".

Laminated tops? Next thing you know people will defend bolt on necks!

Lee Harvey; Icare that's who cares.

I am not going to spend money on a guitar made out of plywood.

Geez..





Yawn

You had me until "yer".

you don`t have the `yer` there` `eh`?

I think this shows just how far downstream from the `Golden Age ` we`ve come. I can`t believe how many people LEAPT to plywoods defense!
WHY? ? ?

Are we so used to swallowing a guitar makers rationale for cutting costs that we have lost reason? ? ? is this the age of Faith Based Luthiery? ? ?
( then again, on the capacitor threads, maybe that`s not even funny!)

I want a solid top on my acoustic -why would a plywood top be better there? ? It TOLERABLE on yer electrics beCAUSE they`re electrics!

What started this off was GRETSCH -and we know that the top end gretsches-your brain setzer, Rev. Horton Heats, etc are made by a different manufacturer than the rest - (heritage in Michigan used to, I dunno who does now -and I think there`s something WRONG/dishonest with that, just like the two teer ( or in fenders case, 8 teer) system stinks!)

The top of the line plywood gretsch is going to be better than the balsa wood and chinese toothpaste one for sure, but probably for alot of reasons besides materials.

everybody who isn't too busy yelling at the kids to get off their lawn has noticed that we are living in the golden age gear at least anyways

...how'd you ever manage to get stuck with all that CRAP? :rolleyes:

Along with playing' em, tweaking guitars is my thing. I guess that makes me "crappy".

Along with playing' em, tweaking guitars is my thing. I guess that makes me "crappy".

..you realize that was said completely "tongue in cheek"??? You've got some GREAT "crap" there!

I think this shows just how far downstream from the `Golden Age ` we`ve come. I can`t believe how many people LEAPT to plywoods defense!
WHY? ? ?

Are we so used to swallowing a guitar makers rationale for cutting costs that we have lost reason? ? ? is this the age of Faith Based Luthiery? ? ?
( then again, on the capacitor threads, maybe that`s not even funny!)

I want a solid top on my acoustic -why would a plywood top be better there? ? It TOLERABLE on yer electrics beCAUSE they`re electrics!

What started this off was GRETSCH -and we know that the top end gretsches-your brain setzer, Rev. Horton Heats, etc are made by a different manufacturer than the rest - (heritage in Michigan used to, I dunno who does now -and I think there`s something WRONG/dishonest with that, just like the two teer ( or in fenders case, 8 teer) system stinks!)

The top of the line plywood gretsch is going to be better than the balsa wood and chinese toothpaste one for sure, but probably for alot of reasons besides materials.

As has been stated many times in this thread, this style of guitar (hollow/semi-hollow electric) has always been made with laminated tops.

And all the Gretsch prolines are made at the Terada company in Japan, and have been since their comeback in the 90's, no secret there. The electromatics are the cheaper ones made elsewhere, like Squire, but again it's no secret.

Heritage is a former Gibson factory that as far as I know, never made Gretsches.