Setup Help

Hi, I have a new Tele-bration and I have a setup issue that I need help with.

This is my guitar :mrgreen:

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The D string produces fret buzz all the way up the fret board. All other strings are fine, it's just the D strings that is giving me issues.

I have setup my guitar to factory spec.
Factory spec is 0.01" relief at the 8th fret, fretted at the first. I have set this and it is bang on.

Factory spec string heights are 4/64" at 17th fret. What the manual does not say is whether this is fretted at the first or not. I set all stings to 4/64" unfretted, I thought the buzz had gone, but no, it hadn't. I then raised the D strings a bit more, and still buzzing. I have now fretted the 1st and set all strings to about 5/64" at the 17th (so this is quite a bit higher than factory spec) and the buzz has almost gone, but not quite it is still there slightly.

Could it be the string? I'm using Pyramid Pure Nickel 10/46 (brand new put on today). Should I try 9's?
I also 'polished' the frets by giving the D string some vibrato on every fret, this seemed to help a little.

One other maybe related item, the D string will not intonate 100%. It remains slightly sharp. I have the new brass saddles that have the movable bit on them. The D string sits on one of the moveable sections. I have the G strings intonated perfectly, hence I now move the saddle under the D string to intonate it. I move it rearwards to intonate it, but even if I move it back as far as possible the D string remains sharp. I'm wondering if the D string is the culprit and maybe I should replace it?

An observation on the moveable saddle sections, they move forward quite a long way, but they do not protrude rearwards past the rear of the main saddle, the spring is iether preventing further movement, or this is by design? Not quite sure?

Anyways, short of taking the guitar back to the shop and having them look at it, what can I try to remove the D string buzz? Surely the frets don't need levelling and dressing on a new guitar as expensive as this was?

A bad D string is a possibility, but that wouldn't normally cause the buzzing issue.

Fender's spec for relief is chosen as much to prevent warranty repairs as it is for playability. I shoot for less than 5 thousandths, just barely enough to tell that it's not back bowed. I've gone into this at length in other threads.

The most likely culprit for the buzzing you're hearing is a high fret.

The action is measured on the unfretted string.

Have you tried turning your middle saddle around and seeing if that gives you the adjustment range you need?

Pretty 3 piece ash body; lots of "chicken feet" which I like.

The D looks high enough at the saddle, relative to the adjacent strings. While it could be the E-A saddle could go closer to the lower end of the plate, and the B little E string a little further away, and then the middle saddle raised a little, I am thinking it is the D nut slot that is low here. For the amount of relief you're getting from the truss rod as it is adjusted right now.

Generally on a fresh quality guitar with a high fret, if one string buzzes the adjacent ones will too, provided the saddle isn't real low. It does not look low, from here (for what THAT's worth :^) ). Could be a high fret; I'm just not focused on that yet as the #1 culprit.

Place a tiny scrap of paper in the D nut slot and elevate the string and see how much it takes to make it stop buzzing. If layers work well and work fairly quickly, I would keep focusing on that. And of course double check that the string is not a problem - try a couple.

When you checked relief, you said "fretted at first" but where did you fret on the other end? On electrics we usually fret at the 15th fret as well, and, and measure relief at 7 or 8. (A capo comes handy, at 1st fret, to free up one hand.)

Brian

Snipping a few coils off the intonation spring will also help you get the G/D saddle a little further back.

Beautiful guitar!

Fret at the first fet and the 12th fret for judging your relief. .010" or less is desirable....and eachneck is an indiviaul. I also use the 12th fret for reading hte action. There are reasons why I don't use the 17th fret as FEnder suggests....and those reasons can be shown in person but it is hard to describe online. IT has todo withthe thought that a good neck slopes 'downward' from the 12 fret on toward the end of the fretboard. The best necks I have ever played on exhibit this 'line'.
Ime, there is no reason to try to set action unless the nut has been properly regulated. That end of the neck has something to 'say' about the action at the 12th fret. I have seen peopel go around and around trying to get a good set-up just by adjusting the bridge....and it is futile to work onthe bridge until the line of hte neck and the nut are properly adjusted. Taht said, if that guitar has a vintage radius of 7.25", it will take 4/64" at the 12th fret to yield a one step bend on the first string. Thisis what sets the basis for all of the other strings. With the hig E at 4'64", one would want the low E to be at least 5'64"..possibly 6'64" depending on the player. IF you set both E's at
4/64", the guitar will exhibit the tendency to yield fret buzz as you go from the treble side of the neck to the bass side...picking with a uniform pick attack. Reason why??? Bigger strings vibrate in a bigger pattern....and casue buzz more readily than do smaller strings unless this is accounted for.

That said, looking at your bridge saddles and the radius there, I don't see a reason for the D to buzz if the A and E are not buzzing. I would take a good look at the string. Is there a kink soemwhre along hte string that is causing the string to 'get into' a fret somewhere. I had a fellow bring in a Guild acoustic one time with a fret buzz on the low E. HE has beenplaying since the '60's...about my age. ....good player. When I showed him the kink in the string at about the 8th fret, he said: "Huh, I have never seen anything like that before." IT happens.
Find the hgihest fret that buzzes. Look for the problem in the area just up the 'board from that fret.

Thanks, the guitar has been returned to Fender for a warranty check.
The owner of the shop could not reason why it was buzzing.

I set relief as you describe above by fretting first and last fret.

The D buzzed if fretted anywhere up the neck, hence why we could not figure it out.

Thanks, the guitar has been returned to Fender for a warranty check.
The owner of the shop could not reason why it was buzzing.

I set relief as you describe above by fretting first and last fret.

The D , hence why we could not figure it out.

db, since the gutiar is out of your hands, this post is of no use to you now.
Reread my post....fret at the 1st and the 12th fret. The truss rod affects the portion of the neck in the middle. IT does nothing to move the area fromt he 12th fret onward on a fEdner neck....you can't 'move' that 1" thick piece of maple.
Here are soemscenarios whereby judging relief using by fretting at the last fret instead of the 12th fret will cause bad results.
IF the neck is one on which the line of the neck 'falls away' above the 12th fret, you have a good neck, ime. However, if you fret at the last fret to judge relief and if you measure action at the 17th fret, you could end up with the action on the guitar being too low.....and buzzing up and down the neck can occur because in reality you will have ended up with excessive relief curve and cation that is too low.
IF the neck is one in which the upper fretboard 'kicks up' above the 12th fret, then using the last fret to jduge relief could end up creating toolittle relief...or 'negative relief'. I have seen it happen when folks don't fully understand the 'quirks' of individual necks.....and how choosing reference points will/can affect adjustments.

However, when I see a guitar that 'buzzed if fretted anywhere up the neck' as you say, that means to me that the string buzzes on the last fret, too...and that precludes the possibility that he neck or the set up is the problem. I start looking at the brdige and/or other aspects of the guitar that might be causing a rattle.
IF by 'buzzed anywhere up the neck" you meant that it buzzed everywhere except the last fret, then I am going to think that your guitar has a neck that 'kicks up' at the end. I don't buy guitars with necks like this. And....I know of only one guitar company from which I have never seen a bad neck.
That would be PRS. Geometry is everything to me when I am looking at a guitar. I know by the geometry whether or not the guitar can be set-up to play well. I have seen $5500 guitars...brand new....that weren't worth putting a set of strings on...and one can 'read' geometry in about 2 seconds if one knows what one is looking at and for.

Hi Wally, first of all, thanks for taking the time to reply to my post :mrgreen:

I got the telebration back from the warranty people and it played fine, the warranty sheet simply mentoned that they had given it a setup (including truss rod adjustment). So it was difficult to determine exactly what they did, but clearly it was a setup issue.

Anyhow, I have since traded the telebration and purchased a 59 Heavy Relic Esquire. Suprise Suprise, it also needs a setup, the High E and B are fretting out on bends (more so on the E).

Measuring teh current action, it is easy to see that the guitar needs a good setup and I want to attempt it myself.

I looked into giving the guitar a setup yesterday and I looked at the difference in relief measurements when fretting at the 1st and 12th and when fretting at the 1st and the 17th. I was going to setup to factory specs (0.010" relief at the 8th using your recommended 1st and 12th fret method) and see what happened to the fretting out. But, I noted that the saddles are reliced to such a degree that they are rusted solid and previous attempts to adjust the action by the previous owner have ruined the hight adjustment screws, they are badly damaged and cannot be operated with a screw driver.

So, I have ordered aged Callaham Compensated Saddles to replace what is currently on the guitar, but, (and to get to my question). Can you explain what you mean by 'falls away' and 'kicks up' when you describe the neck past the 12th fret. Do you simply mean the last frets are either higher (kicks up) than the 12th or lower (falls away) than the 12th?

In no way am I saying you are wrong, but the help page on this site (and the pictures) indicate that the neck will bend past the 12th when adjusting the relief. So I just want to try and understand this a little more.

http://www.tdpri.com/resources/adjust-your-guitar%E2%80%99s-truss-rod/

I think your theory is similar to advice I have been given for Les Pauls, ie, fret at 1st fret and then where the neck joins the body (16th fret), the truss rod will not bend the neck within the tennon joint.

Thanks for any help.

Ha Ha! Rusted saddles on a brand new guitar! Sorry, no offence intended, but the whole relic thing is absurd, and would be even if it was free .

Check the relief using several anchor frets (12th, 15th, 17th) and consider what the neck is telling you, then reduce the relief (tighten the truss rod) until it as flat as you prefer without buzzing.

Brian

Incidentally, that link to the truss rod article shows how to break a truss rod.

The picture labeled "To Tighten Truss Rod" shows a neck with extreme "back bow", exaggerated sure, but it's possible to tighten the rod beyond zero relief and this is when the damage could occur. It can not only break a rod, or strip or freeze an adjustment nut, but it can permanently damage the neck itself.

The picture is obviously intended to show which direction tightening the rod bows the neck, but someone might see that and think it's ok or even desirable to back bow the neck.

Brian

db, Brian gives some good advice on taking note of what is happening at several pints in that upper region.
IF a neck will adjsut out to a perfectly straight line at soem pint in the range of the truss rods, adjustment, then I probably don't ahve any problem with takign teh jeasurement from whatever fret in that area. However, this doens't occur as often as one might like. Many necks 'kick up' in the upper fret/tongue of the board. IF a neck does this, then the 17th fret meamuring point will 'allow' one to adjust theneck into a situaation that is less than desirable, ime. IF the neck is one of the very rare necks that gently fall away above the 12th fret, themeasurement fromt he 17th fret will yield a different but also less than desirable result.
So, take each neck as an individual and learn what goes when you do a certain thing a certain way when adjusting a neck that has a 'less than perfect' line. Most of them are less than perfect. IF you learn to understand necks in thismanner, you can asssure yourself that everytime you buy a guitar, you will buy a good neck....no matter how the guitar plays when you are assessing it. I dont' care at all how a guitar plays when I am looking at it. I assess thegeometry, and then I know exactly how that guitar can be made to play across the range of 'correct set-up' specs. A bad neck will never make music. A qeustionable neck or line of neck will limit the ability to set the guitar at one end of the range....depending on what the problem is. A good neck can set up anyway one wants. A great neck will do that and more....it will set-up lower and still achieve big bends than a similar neck that is just a 'good' neck. FWIW, a good neck might have a straight line, while a great neck will fall away above that 12 fret. I remember every guitar with a 'great' neck that I have ever set up. PRS...from gutiar to guitar....all have at the minimum very very good necks. I have a Gibson here with a great neck. The fingerboard ahs a 12" radius. A good neck with a 12" radisu will allow a hgih E set at 3/64" at the 12 fret to bend at least a full step and maybe a step and a half. This little Gibson sets up to bend 2 1/2 steps with the high E below closer to 2/64". My 'strat' parts guitar wiht a vintage 7.25" radisu is set up to make those huge bends across the fretboard....3 steps or so....and the high E sits over 5/64". teh neck on it is a very goodneck. IT will yield a full step bend with the action a bit below 4/64". 4/64" is sort of a standard for a
7.25" radius neck for a 1 step bend.
IF you have a kick up above the 12th fret, that guitar will not set-up with a 'low' action. For example, I set up two new MIM Tele's...both of them kicked up. They had 9" radius necks. The hgih E's ended up at 4.5/64" for a 1 step bend!! STiff.....
Buy geometry.