The one thing that eludes me...

Prior to playing guitar in my church, I was the audio board technician.
In that time I've been able to understand the mixing board well enough to make things sound relatively good and keep the musicians and choir happy.

Now that I'm playing guitar, I run my amp to a DI box using the FX-Loop SEND port on my amp. The DI box has amp simulation available but I have it turned off. The DI feeds into the Musician-Pit Snake that runs to the back of the church where the mixing board is located.

It seems like no matter what settings I use on the mixing board, my guitar always sounds shrill, thin and ratty. I know that it doesn't sound like that coming out of my amp because the people in the front rows LOVE the sound from my amp that they can hear and so do I. However, in the back of the house where the signal comes out of the board into the rear speakers...it sounds shrill out of the rear speakers and the front house speakers.

Should I turn that "Amp simulation" on in the DI box to fix the "thinness/Shrillness" or resolve to Microphoning my amp? I get the feeling that the FX-Loop-Send port doesn't impart the warmth of the signal given by the speaker...

If I do mic the amp, what microphone do you think I should buy? I have no experience Microphoning an amp and dont know exactly what is required besides....a Microphone and an Amp :razz:

Thanks in advance!

My experience to date (and possibly others with different experience could say otherwise) is that nothing sounds like an amp. If the amp sounds good, stick a Shure SM57 in front of it (the only mic I know, but it works for me).

My experience to date (and possibly others with different experience could say otherwise) is that nothing sounds like an amp. If the amp sounds good, stick a Shure SM57 in front of it (the only mic I know, but it works for me).

Okay, will do. I use a 1X12 Fender Princeton 650.
Should I point the mic at the center of it, drape it over the top hanging down?
How do you mic your amp?

Okay, will do. I use a 1X12 Fender Princeton 650.
Should I point the mic at the center of it, drape it over the top hanging down?
How do you mic your amp?

After a little bit of trial and error, pointing at the speaker just slightly off-centre and not quite touching the grille. Just experience, I don't have the science to explain!

After a little bit of trial and error, pointing at the speaker just slightly off-centre and not quite touching the grille. Just experience, I don't have the science to explain!

Okay, I will try that. I will have to build a rig to hold the mic in that position because I usually sit my amp on a chair and tilt it back pointing at my head so I can hear what it is saying correctly. That's why I THOUGHT using a DI box would translate the right sound to the house.

I was wrong...:shock:

The problem is that a DI box can't communicate the frequencies and tonal qualities that your **gorgeous** Princeton amp can produce. Mic the amp. That is the best way. Use a boom stand (like a mic stand that has a bar that can be adjusted/swiveled right to your amp).

For mics, the sm57 is probably the most common. You could also try a Sennheiser e609. (you could even try both at the same time!).

Also, for the booms, another option could be On Stage RS7500 Tiltback Amplifier Stand with the On Stage MSA7500CB Posi Lok Combo Microphone Boom Arm. Google it.

The problem is that a DI box can't communicate the frequencies and tonal qualities that your **gorgeous** Princeton amp can produce. Mic the amp. That is the best way. Use a boom stand (like a mic stand that has a bar that can be adjusted/swiveled right to your amp).

For mics, the sm57 is probably the most common. You could also try a Sennheiser e609. (you could even try both at the same time!).

Also, for the booms, another option could be On Stage RS7500 Tiltback Amplifier Stand with the On Stage MSA7500CB Posi Lok Combo Microphone Boom Arm. Google it.

Ah-Ha!!
So that explains it!
Thank you all for the help. I will use one of the mic stands to mic the amp properly then.
I will keep the DI Box in the closet with my unused effect pedals then.
There is an SM-58 at the church already but the keyboardist recently started singing and playing. He may have grabbed it already...I will have to check. I hope not lol...it will be hard to explain/justify another $100 purchase to the wife for a Shure SM-57.... :razz::lol:

Thank you all for the help. I will use one of the mic stands to mic the amp properly then.

definitely not the direct center. talk about shrill. there's a reason weber sells beamblockers. i tend to put my mics a little inside the outer edge of the speaker. but as soverytired said, just do some trial and error. and an sm57 is a good choice here.

Should I turn that "Amp simulation" on in the DI box to fix the "thinness/Shrillness" or resolve to Microphoning my amp? I get the feeling that the FX-Loop-Send port doesn't impart the warmth of the signal given by the speaker...

Absolutely it does not. The pure signal out of the guitar and through the pre-amp has way too much high end. You need that big slow chunky speaker in the cabinet to attenuate those frequenices and turn on the warmth. You could try the switch on the DI box to use its "amp simulation".

My DG stomp has a separate "speaker simulator" option before output. If I turn that off the guitar sound like it has ice picks coming out of it. Micing is definitely the best solution, but not always practical. If you do, DO NOT just hang it over the back of the cabinet. Get a mic stand and aim about 2/3 out from the center of the speaker.

Should I turn that "Amp simulation" on in the DI box to fix the "thinness/Shrillness" or resolve to Microphoning my amp? I get the feeling that the FX-Loop-Send port doesn't impart the warmth of the signal given by the speaker...

Absolutely it does not. The pure signal out of the guitar and through the pre-amp has way too much high end. You need that big slow chunky speaker in the cabinet to attenuate those frequenices and turn on the warmth. You could try the switch on the DI box to use its "amp simulation".

My DG stomp has a separate "speaker simulator" option before output. If I turn that off the guitar sound like it has ice picks coming out of it. Micing is definitely the best solution, but not always practical. If you do, DO NOT just hang it over the back of the cabinet. Get a mic stand and aim about 2/3 out from the center of the speaker.

Okay. Thank you! I will try the amp/cab simulator first...and have the mic and stand on standby! Thank you for the positioning advice and posting your experiences.

As an example, here is me playing along with my son and a backing track of "Say So".
The bassiness of my rig comes through but when I turn up the volume on my guitar to get more distortion...it gets "ice-picky"...

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Does anyone know exactly how this switch works?

http://www.hosatech.com/product/339944/DIB-443/_/Sidekick_Passive_DI_Box%2C_14_in_TS_to_XLR3M

The manufacturer website says "throw the INST/SPKR switch to SPKR position to allow your amp to drive the line for a natural, overdriven tone."

Does that mean that the tone will stay warm and thick when I use high gain instead of getting all shrill and thin? I'm thinking that a DI like this will give more breakup according to the description?

Blah...I just don't get it. I wish I had someone else there with me to play while I analyzed what all these sound changes do to my output.

I've not used that model but I seriously doubt a $42 DI is going to give you anything close to the sound of a real amp. I could be wrong but from experience plugging an electric guitar into a DI is never going to give you wha you're looking for. A good amp simulator with DI out, maybe - a mic'd amp, much more likely.

It's a shame that these experiments cost money!

Radial Engineering (www.radialeng.com) seems to know a lot about guitars and DI boxes...check out their site and maybe give them a call? Micing the amp will be fine too and yeah, you can't go wrong with an SM57. "Officially," the SM58 is a vocal mic but I've used it to mic guitar amps with good results. If you have a mic hanging around that you can use it couldn't hurt to try it at a rehearsal.

If you're going to invest in a Shure mic, beware of counterfeits! I've seen counterfeits advertised online and the packaging looks very close but NOT the same. Lord only knows how bad an actual counterfeit mic is...

Flick the switch. Most definitely. You don't want full-frequency distortion, or even clean.

Even the cheap Behringer DI (the red one) has a speaker sim that has gotten me out of a bind a few times, and quite well for what it costs and what it is.

Your original problem is that an "FX-Loop SEND port" is not the same thing as a Line Out, and not a suitable substitute for one. You should have already known this.

Your original problem is that an "FX-Loop SEND port" is not the same thing as a Line Out, and not a suitable substitute for one. You should have already known this.

I didn't know that.
:sad:

I guess I will be using a microphone tomorrow.
I have two of these at church...
http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/fit,325by325/quality,85/C02-1e6a2cac2fa41f4d48a32cb2725000e1.jpg

I'll hook one up and aim it at the amp.
It picks up everything around it though. I tried using it before and it was just too sensitive...but it's better than nothing and better than my sound being shrill thru the house speakers.

One disagreement with the above. The Effects Send/Pre Amp out should be suitable to send to a direct box or staight to your PA as per experiance and per manual for amp off Fender website (Fender Princeton 650). One simple solution may be simply to roll off the treble, run up the bass on either your guitar, the PA, or both. If you are running reverb/effects on your amp, get the PA guy to kill effects on the PA board. Also experiment with your pickup setting. Use the neck pickup to get a fuller sound. The quality is bad, but you do not sound too bad in the video.

As far as miking the amp. See if your PA guy has any other mikes you can try, even a cheap one, and experiment a little. The way I like to set up an amp is run it just a little quieter than what you need at the church, mike it, and give the PA guy just a little control over the sound if you follow me. If you are too loud, he can't control your volume, but otherwise, get it loud enough to be getting a lot of your sound from the amp...if the rest of the church band is happy.

Your original problem is that an "FX-Loop SEND port" is not the same thing as a Line Out, and not a suitable substitute for one.

They are not the same thing.

A line out comes from the output section of the power amplifier; via a resistor(s). An effects loop is a pre-amp out; it is an insert between the preamp and the power amp. It contains only a portion (if any) of the amp's voicing. This is why it sounds so bad, and why it's not suitable for use as a line out.

Not to mention the voltage is incorrect for feeding a mixer. (See: not the same as a line out.)

Thighbanez' situation proves this out. These sorts of things are fundamental, simple, basic knowledge that we, as guitarists, should know before we play out.

Well, I only use the DI setup at our church. When we play elsewhere I usually just let the amp do the work. No one ever approaches me to be miked or such anyway...

I miced the amp at church yesterday. Once I have downloaded the video footage from the camera I will hear what it sounded like and post a video.

Thanks all!
:)

EDIT: Just reviewed the video footage. Guitar was barely audible. I guess I didn't adjust the level high enough at the mixing board in the back of the church. As usual, the keyboard and vocals overpowered everything. :roll:

Ah well.

Not posting a video of it all...yesterday was utter garbage.

So your church doesn't have a soundman? I thought it did?!

Since no-one seems to care how loud you are: set your volume YOURSELF. This is one reason to own a good 30-50ft. guitar cable. So you can check your volume.
Just set your sound in the middle. Then pick hard or soft depending on how you want to sound in the mix. Or use your guitars volume control. But that sometimes destroys your tone.

Eventually you should own an amp mic. Never leave home without it. A sennheiser E609 is great. just hang it over your amp and it should sound relatively good. (that's if your amp actually sounds good?!)
SM 57's should not be hung over your amp. it does work on occasion though. It would be a pain to have to bring your own mic stand everyweek.

Do you visit a local music store? You should make this a monthly passion. Keep up on what's available and on sale. And chat with the guys who work there - you can learn tons of helpful info for free.

Well, there is a sound guy...but he is 15 and usually sitting at the mixing board doing his homework for school on monday instead of actively monitoring the sound.

I am saving up to purchase a proper mic for my sound. I am upgrading to a tube amp at the end of this year. I know that my amp isn't the best but it's not the worst either.

I guess I can't go wrong with turning my sound levels up higher at the mixing board. I can always just turn down the amp and be sure not to talk around the mic lol...

I don't get to visit the local music stores much anymore unless I'm on my lunch break. I used to go regularly but I always got the feeling they were only being nice to me so I'd buy stuff...which I can't really blame them for. One girl asked me if I would play in her band...gave her my info, never got a call...visited the store at least once a week...same story "Oh I'll give you a call and we'll jam"...never called and eventually I dropped it and her info. Still went to the store every now and then, and then she was gone.

Sounds like a job for a 57. But some of the di outputs are poor on amps. Because most the time it's just the amp signal with no speaker emulation

Sounds like a job for a 57. But some of the di outputs are poor on amps. Because most the time it's just the amp signal with no speaker emulation

Yep, Mic'd definitely sounded better.
Once I get an SM-57 recording will be good.

mic the amp.

EDIT: sorry, only read the op before posting.