In reference to Boneyguy's thread

Here's a piano guy talking about how to learn a tune. It's an interesting short lecture with demonstrations. z9eUo3BCEmI&feature

That's great!
Pretty much 'how it's done' in a nutshell.

*I love that near the end (6:25), as he's going through the steps of learning to play over the tune, he mentions 'enjoying the discomfort' of learning the notes (that work). Enjoying the discomfort - i've never been able to articulate it before but that's my favorite thing about learning a new song - 'not' knowing it.

That was a nice succinct presentation of the rudiments of how to learn a song. I'm very familiar with those 'sub-structures' as would be most folks who have studied improvised music in a formal way, I would think.

However, actually sitting down and seriously putting in the work is another matter entirely and one of my many great failings. :mrgreen:

Even though I spent a year studying Jazz in college and private lessons before and after that college year, these days I'm mostly playing funk and blues with a smattering of other rootsy styles so the methodology that he is offering in the video is not nearly as vital I would say. Even though I'm playing styles that are improvisatory by nature the harmonic simplicity is such that there isn't nearly the need to commit to the 'sub-structures' that he's outling.

Although, that being said, I could use what he's describing to complicate the simple structures that I typically play over and with the right skill level and musicianship it would sound good. Specifically I'm talking about outlining changes like ii-V's and using tritone substitutions and so forth that aren't in the actual composition. But the folks I play with probably wouldn't take kindly to too much of that.:mrgreen:

BG - since you 'know' how to do it with more complex forms I'd bet you actually are doing it with the perceived 'simpler' stuff. It just happens so fast when you know and are used to using that methodology. You probably don't even notice it.

I didn't realize that that's what I do all the time until I 'coached' at one of those School of Rock/Rock Band camps one time. You know - I had to really explain what goes through my head when I learn a song, come up with a part(s) and solo. I had no idea what machinations my brain went through even when working out "Takin' Care of Business" or "Sweet Emotion" until I *kept a detailed log of what I did when I sat down to learn a new song*. Less complicated (and time consuming) maybe than 'Stella but the same steps pretty much.

BG - since you 'know' how to do it with more complex forms I'd bet you actually are doing it with the perceived 'simpler' stuff. It just happens so fast when you know and are used to using that methodology. You probably don't even notice it.

I didn't realize that that's what I do all the time until I 'coached' at one of those School of Rock/Rock Band camps one time. You know - I had to really explain what goes through my head when I learn a song, come up with a part(s) and solo. I had no idea what machinations my brain went through even when working out "Takin' Care of Business" or "Sweet Emotion" until I *kept a detailed log of what I did when I sat down to learn a new song*. Less complicated (and time consuming) maybe than 'Stella but the same steps pretty much.

You might just be right Ken. As I was typing my previous post I was actually wondering that very thing. Those are the 'default sounds' that are in my head so I'm guessing they must be coming out at least to some degree. I've often heard people say that I play Jazz when I know full well that I don't really play Jazz so maybe that's the stuff people are hearing.:confused:

As I was listening to this tonight I thought to myself "Here's a really nice example of the kind of places you can go when you really deeply understand the 'sub-structure' of a tune." There's a million examples of course but it's nice to hear a couple of masters of the art demonstrate it on guitar.

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Pat and Jim. Well that's definitely an apex for guitar and guitarist music as well as concept.

*BG, I was just referring to the 'method' of learning (maybe you were too?). When I learn a rock or country or Irish song I don't try to see what 'jazz' I can put into it (that normally destroys it). But I go about 'learning' it the same way I would a jazz tune. I would bet that most good players who are effective song learners (transcribers of/in any style) use essentially the same methodology in that Lawton video.

Pat and Jim. Well that's definitely an apex for guitar and guitarist music as well as concept.

*BG, I was just referring to the 'method' of learning (maybe you were too?). When I learn a rock or country or Irish song I don't try to see what 'jazz' I can put into it (that normally destroys it). But I go about 'learning' it the same way I would a jazz tune. I would bet that most good players who are effective song learners (transcribers of/in any style) use essentially the same methodology in that Lawton video.

Initially I did think you meant how to jazz things up but afterwards I realized that you probably meant the method of learning. And you're right now that I think about it. Even when I'm improvising on a basic I-IV-V 12 bar blues template I'm hearing, seeing and using those 'sub-structures' he's talking about. And when I'm learning a new song or even a familiar song in a new key I'm envisioning those various pathways through the structure of it.

I really feel fortunate that I pursued the moderate level of music education that I have.
It's a really powerful thing to be able to see the nuts and bolts of how a song works. In the circles I travel in that's not so much common knowledge and I can see the confusion and the disadvantages that it can sometimes create.

I really feel fortunate that I pursued the moderate level of music education that I have.
It's a really powerful thing to be able to see the nuts and bolts of how a song works. In the circles I travel in that's not so much common knowledge and I can see the confusion and the disadvantages that it can sometimes create.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!
The confusion is often a by-product of having some information-but no point of reference. Theres so much info hanging around - but most of it is waiting for the right bit of experience to latch onto - so it can become knowledge..

I'm happier if I can sing all the elements - thats knowing for me- in the way Tom Lawton describes it anyway - thats when I know that I know a tune.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!
The confusion is often a by-product of having some information-but no point of reference. Theres so much info hanging around - but most of it is waiting for the right bit of experience to latch onto - so it can become knowledge..

I'm happier if I can sing all the elements - thats knowing for me- in the way Tom Lawton describes it anyway - thats when I know that I know a tune.

And a little confusion can be a good thing.

Words of wisdom SP. And to be clear I think of wisdom as knowledge + experience = wisdom.

My case is that way too often I have the knowledge of what to do, how to do and why it should be done but I can't get my lazy ass to do it. So as a result I have lots of wisdom (knowledge+experience) about laziness I can offer people.:mrgreen:

But I really admire and applaud guys like you and Ken and JT and Larry and others who actually walk (or play) the talk. I've commited myself to a certain degree and it shows in my playing but I've never fully attained the musicianship I always desired because I always stopped short of fully committing myself to the process. It's a lot of freakin' work!!!:shock:

And a little confusion can be a good thing.

Something that sadly seems to be very unfashionable in the information age. As a teacher these days - if you are seen to sow a little subversive uncertainty around your topic for the sake of firing up some curiosity, debate or problem solving, its often misconstrued to be somehow self indulgent and destructive...even in a University.
Thats a direct result of the information tsunami we all live in - IMO.

It's a lot of freakin' work!!!

You're not wrong!