Yet Another...5F2A Tweed Princeton build

My parts are starting to roll in for my 5F2A clone build. I sourced the parts from various suppliers. Here is how I did it this time:

5F2A guts from Boothill Amps (Hackworth1)
Tweed Cab from Bruce at Memphis Amps. Cut for 10" speaker
Weber Silver Bell 10" 8 ohm alinco speaker, used from a forum member
Chassis, PT and OT are Heyboer from Weber
Misc NOS Tubes

As of this writing the circuit board is populated. I am waiting for my trannies and chassis to show up from Weber. Here are a few shots of the cab. I sat it beside my deluxe for quick comparison. I now see that the tweed seems to darken up over time.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XA93McEwzpc/Tz1rDOU-6CI/AAAAAAAAAzM/JT_O2d10QKI/s800/IMGP2650.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-58K82EZlQac/Tz1rON5KUaI/AAAAAAAAAzY/gZzjevy0Wk4/s512/IMGP2652.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qP2mwOXiY3E/Tz1rC7xKp3I/AAAAAAAAAzI/iIawXoOkkYw/s800/IMGP2649.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sLXpGkMgMzw/Tz1rBvqRx2I/AAAAAAAAAzA/wHuLMpZwrnI/s512/IMGP2651.JPG

After some trial runs at cutting finger joints in to pine boards, I gave up. A wood worker I am not. Bruce does a great job on pine cabs. Both of mine were made by him. I can only image how frustrated I'd be, trying to get the tweed on there right.

More to come as the project progresses.

That's a nice looking cab you've got there. I thought about recovering my 5F1 with tweed, but I think I'll leave it to the professionals. I've got a 10" Weber Blue Dog in my amp. I'd like to hear your review of the Silver Bell with a 5f2.

Nice going Keithb7 that´s a nice looking cab you´ve got there. I will follow your thread with interest as the amp takes form. It´s good to see som 5F2A love, I´m enjoying my build tremedously :mrgreen: Keep us posted.

Generally, the tweed currently used in the guitar amp market comes in two basic types. One type has a light olive green stripe, the other has a brown stripe.

The olive green stuff has had some poor runs lately with defects in the weave. The brown stripe has been consistently good.

The cabinet coloring can differ according to age, of course. It can also differ according to the shellac mix one uses at the get go. More dilute makes a yellow tone. More concentrate makes an orangey hue.

A clear lacquer top coat makes the finish more plastic-like and more stain resistant and durable.

Both of your cabs look very nice, BTW.

Awesome! Would love to hear your impressions of the speaker when it's fired up! What prompted the 10 instead of a 12? Variety?
I'm jealous, cause I don't have a 12" speaker amp...

And I hear you on cabinet building! I have tons of respect for the builders, but a) the sharp instruments freak me out, and b) yet another distraction (when also doing the circuit building) to keep from playing!

Andy I went with the 10" speaker to fill a hole in my fleet of amps. I already owned a 1x8 SFVC, 1x12 tweed deluxe, and a 2x12 BF Bandmaster. Now I get a 10" too! I went with the Silver Bell just because I got a great deal on it. It was new in Nov and the guy barely used it. I am going to have to break it in. I was leaning toward the 10A100, but the Silver Bell deal was so attractive I thought, what the heck. Plus, I don't think I've bumped into anyone on here with a Silver Bell in a 5F2A, so it will be a fun experiment. I will post some clips when it is all done.

Good to read you're doing another after finishing your Trinity..Keep us up to speed with your build again as you did on the first..thats always good to see..

Hack: Regarding the Green and Brown stripe within the tweed cloth.. I am getting ready to order some for my cab and had thought of using Mojotone.. Do you know what theirs might be?? Thank you...have fun Keith..

Keith, I think half the forum must be waiting on Weber trannies at any given time. Right now they are holding up 2 of my builds. And I am not a fast builder.
But you can't beat the price with a stick!

My Weber 10" Silver Bell 8 ohm 30W alnico speaker arrived today. I was anxious to try it out. Still waiting for my 5F2A transformers, I mounted it in it's new home. I built a hook up wire, a little extra long to plug it into my 5E3 amp, just to test it out. I was quite surprised at how different my 5E3 sounded with the 10" silver bell. It breaks up less than my '64 C12N 8 ohm 50W ceramic, I normally use in my 5E3. It seems to break up much later on the 5E3's volume knob. It handles the bass very very well. It sounds very good, just different. It certainly seems to put out less volume overall than the 12" C12N. It compressed nicely when the 5E3 volume was maxed. I am looking forward to getting this 5F2A together with the silver bell. I am wondering if a 15W will give me more break up earlier, vs this 30W I got? Hmm. I found another sweet deal on a 10A100 8 ohm 15W Weber. I think I'll grab it too, and pick my fav.

Mojo sells the dark stripe tweed. It has been consistent in quality.

thanks Hackworth..

My Weber 10" Silver Bell 8 ohm 30W alnico speaker arrived today. I was anxious to try it out. Still waiting for my 5F2A transformers, I mounted it in it's new home. I built a hook up wire, a little extra long to plug it into my 5E3 amp, just to test it out. I was quite surprised at how different my 5E3 sounded with the 10" silver bell. It breaks up less than my '64 C12N 8 ohm 50W ceramic, I normally use in my 5E3. It seems to break up much later on the 5E3's volume knob. It handles the bass very very well. It sounds very good, just different. It certainly seems to put out less volume overall than the 12" C12N. It compressed nicely when the 5E3 volume was maxed. I am looking forward to getting this 5F2A together with the silver bell. I am wondering if a 15W will give me more break up earlier, vs this 30W I got? Hmm. I found another sweet deal on a 10A100 8 ohm 15W Weber. I think I'll grab it too, and pick my fav.

Thanks for the impression. Where are you finding all these sweet deals!?! :)

Andy I probably spend too much time cruising forums like this one. I watch for good deals on parts I need like speakers, cabs, tubes etc. If you are not in a hurry good deals come up. You just have to keep checking in regularly in the classifieds sections, like several times a day. Not just Tdpri but a few other places too.

My Dr. said pics :)
nudge nudge.
Is that cab a special size for the 10" or just a diff. baffle? I like the size, wondering if one could squeeze a 12" in there along with an obnoxiously large OT.

Andy no pics to share yet as there has been no progress. Still waiting on the Weber chassis and X-formers to arrive. I surely will post as things develop. I will measure the cab and follow up.

I sourced 2 speaker options to try in my 5F2A build. An alnico Weber Silver 10. 8 ohm 30W, and an alnico Weber gold basket 10A100 8 ohm 15W. Here they are side by side. I am looking forward to swapping each one out in the 5F2A to compare.
I see the silver 10 has folds or rings in the cone, whatever they are called. The 10A100 does not. What is the main purpose for this? Later break up vs smooth cone? Also looks to me that the 10A100 has some light dope. No? I got both used from 2 different sellers. They cost me about $70 each delivered. Both fairly new. 1 built in March, other in Nov 2011.

Maybe when I am done, I can post a sound clip using each speaker. Maybe set up a poll and find a winner!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-maDAiUnAqCs/T1K2zVwsADI/AAAAAAAAAz0/9xCbaeOQWPg/s720/DSCN2874.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i8GgtIgDz3k/T1K20SoUATI/AAAAAAAAA0E/hONQErbkBso/s720/DSCN2875.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g6P09SGeygE/T1K2zS7kqlI/AAAAAAAAAz4/ttrLJmBsqsg/s720/DSCN2876.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VzCLOAPBQQY/T1K24btNbcI/AAAAAAAAA0M/n_T6jkUtbKk/s720/DSCN2877.JPG

Well my parts from Weber finally showed up today. Now problems are surfacing. I got the 5F2A chassis from Weber, as well as Heyboer transfromers. The power transformer HY022772 does not fit in the square cut into the Weber chassis. Any suggestions? I am thinking I may have to take it to someone with a tool that can resize the opening and drill new mounting holes. Hoping any chrome damage can be spared in the process.

HY022772 6 to 15W Power Transformer for Tweed Champ, Champ, Vibro Champ, Princeton, Princeton Reverb. 120 and 125 Volt input.

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks,

Seen here:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7NPAVkBIVtE/T6BU3i6YTGI/AAAAAAAAA1w/EBi4gGbBVJI/s640/IMGP3500.JPG

I use that part number for Champ Power Transformers 022772, but I have not used the Heyboer PT for Champ. I've been using this one:

http://www.cedist.com/products/transformers_chokes

Third one down on the page.

It has 2 x 2.5 inch mounting centers. These fit the Champ Chassis I sell.

What have you got for mounting center measurements?

My Weber chassis is drilled 2 x 2.5" centers. The Heyboer PT is 2 1/4" x 2 3/4" centers.

Crap! Thwarted.
You could maybe take the bell cover off and drill new holes? (grain of salt etc.)

You wouldn't think that the Heyboer Part number would be the same part number used on other Xformers which have 2 x 2.5 inch mounting centers. Weber offers a Multitap Xformer (same part number) which also has 2 x 2.5 inch centers.

Third one down:

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/magnetic.htm

If you drill a hole and install a rubber grommet to feed the primary wires through, you can lay this xformer down in the chassis in the typical fashion.

Ya it is weird, the Heyboer part number with different mounting holes. I am on to a solution that I'll try tomorrow. I have access to machining tools. I waited months for these Heyboer trannies, for now the plan is to get them to work.

Finally it's raining around here today I have some down time to work on my project again. I have a question about proper pin indexing on the 6V6GT tube sockets. I am concerned over the pin markings on the 6V6 sockets I got in my Boothill kit, versus the sockets that are in my 5E3 kit. Pins 1 and 8 separate the tube index slot in my 5E3, and pins 4 & 5 separate the tube index slot on my Boothill socket. I want to be sure I wire them up properly. I am currently laying the heater wires. Here is a basic diagram showing comparing the two. Would the real "pin 1" please step forward? Help is appreciated.

All I can offer in thanks is some progress photos. Below here is the latest:

Thanks. Keith

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-W24lOmCRlV4/T7qZvj4mBtI/AAAAAAAAA4c/SwbQfOb2gn0/s480/Scanned%2520Image%2520121420000.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B5QqJSrUX9o/T7qcx4V_o3I/AAAAAAAAA44/mkftZfR4bTw/s512/Some%2520Progress.jpg

The numbers on your drawing on the left are correct. I checked a couple of them I have on hand and the numbering is correct. There may be some that are not numbered correctly. This is not critical as long as you know the correct order according to the location of the indexing slot. The correlation of the pins to the indexing slot indicate the pin number. This is critical.

Generally, octal sockets are mounted so that the indexing slot is facing toward you and points to four o'clock. The count begins at pin number one which is the first pin on the left of the keyway. The count proceeds clockwise.

The count is counterclockwise when viewed from the top where the tube plugs into the socket.

Thanks Dave! I kinda figured they were mislabeled. Bey hey...I recall the saying, "You don't know, what you don't know". Maybe I was missing out on something. Just an FYI the 12AX7 socket is mislabeled too. Carrying on now.

I am at the point currently where I am wiring up my power transformer. I bought a Heyboer HY22772 which is described as having a 120V and 125V input. It did not come with any wiring diagram or instructions. I think I have most of it figured out but have a few wires I am scratching my head over. I emailed Heyboer to ask, but I was informed that they don't have a wiring diagram available. I'd read somewhere about hooking the transformer up to 120V to test the leads, I'd rather see if we can figure this out before I have to do that.
I have a fairly decent understanding of power transformers, but still unsure.
Here are all the power transformer wires and where I figure they need to go:

Yellow: Rectifier 350V
Yellow: Rectifier 350V
Red: Rectifier 5V
Red: Rectifier 5V
Green: Heater wires 6.3V
Green: Heater wires 6.3V
Black: to amp power on/off switch
White: to main A/C power cord white wire
Red/Yellow Stripe: ? Unsure. Center tap for red wires maybe? To go to ground?
Black/Red Stripe: ? Unknown
Black/Yellow Stripe: ? Unknown
Black/Green Stripe: ? Unknown
Black/Blue Stripe: ? Unknown

For reference my A/C power cord from the wall, planning to wire as follows:
White: To power transformer white wire
Green: Chassis Ground
Black: To main power fuse

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

One reason why I don't buy Heyboer, what's so hard about supplying a schematic. All I can offer is go by the Weber equivalent....

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/5f2a_layout.jpg

I'm not sure if Heyboer trans have a heater CT

Oooh I just ordered that Heyboer PT for my 5F1 and would have had similar questions...perhaps Dave or Muchxs can chime in! :mrgreen:

hey keithb7,
hope that trannie business is coming along!

i have a question for you, though. what kind of jack did you use for the amp's inputs? i notice by the 5f2a layouts they have 3 leads.

thanks!

Unezrider my 5F2A has 2 inputs. I used switchcraft jacks. Same as these ones here:
http://www.effectsconnection.com/oscommerce/images/switchcraft%2012A%201.jpg

No word yet on the transformer hook up. I emailed and called Heyboer today but they have not gotten back to me yet. Hopefully tomorrow. Hoping someone will chime in if they too experienced this here. I studied the Weber 022772 diagram as shown below here. This one below looks to be wired just like my Heyboer, for 120V and 125V. My wire colors are different and I want to confirm. Hopefully Heyboer can straighten this out.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/amp-central-station/77540d1301084257t-fender-champ-5c1-wiring-power-transformer-question-022772sch-jpg

the input jacks are shorting jacks, that's why they have the three pins.

thanks for the info, fellas!

Female Shorting Jacks aka Tip Shunt Jacks aka Tip Shunting Jacks are used for inputs so that the jacks remain shorted (to ground) when no male jack is inserted. In this manner, no unwanted signal (interference) can pass (be picked up) when nothing is connected to any unused, iow, unoccupied jack.

Switchcraft and Neutrik tip shunt jacks have the center lug (solder tab) connected to the switch (which creates the short, iow makes the connection to ground). One outboard tab is the hot side. The other tab makes ground.

Hope this helps Keith...

#1: Black: to amp power on/off switch
White: to main A/C power cord white wire

black and white wires will complete the 120V circuit to power the primary side so it doesnt matter which goes where but Black and the white wire will feed it..I soldered/shrink tubed white (nuetral) from line (house current) to white on PT and black from the PT primary is your power lead..

#2: Red/Yellow Stripe: ? Unsure. ...Center tap for red wires maybe? To go to ground?

yes, this is your centre tap..run it to star ground

#3: Black/Red Stripe: ? Unknown (240V)
#4: Black/Yellow Stripe: ? Unknown (220V)
#5: Black/Green Stripe: ? Unknown (230V)
#6: Black/Blue Stripe: ? Unknown (100V Japan)

I just cut off #3-#6 and shrink tubed them short (1.5"" approx) so they wouldn't be in the way

Hope you're going to put together another sound clip for your friends when you get this one done :)

Thanks Ernie, that makes sense. I had soldered the wires I knew in place. There was just those 4 black colored wires. Funny that Heyboer emailed me back but their answer did no address my questionable wires. Here was their response:

Black & White Primary 120 or 125 Volts

Secondary:
Hi Volt Red - Red/Yellow - Red
5 Volts Yellows
6.3 Volts Greens

At any rate, thanks Ernie for your help. I will be sure to put together another sound clip when I am done. That'll be a ways out yet. We have so many spring projects on the go around here. For me, winter definitely seems to be the best time to build an amp!

For me, winter definitely seems to be the best time to build an amp!

That's 'cuz it's cold outside!! I was up Kelowna way a few years ago in mid-winter, and indoors was a nice place to be. (Yokohama is pretty temperate, and my US home is Hawaii, so... yeah!)

Secondary:
Hi Volt Red - Red/Yellow - Red
(here, they are telling you that the red/yellow is the center tap)

5 Volts Yellows
6.3 Volts Greens

Pretty sparse with the info. Nothing on the other colors, but You won't be needing them. Apparently there is no heater center tap.

I have not built an amp with the ground strip across the pre-amp side before. Dave's kit is done this way, and I have the red grounding strip now to wire up. The 5F1 circuit board, which I am using in my 5F2A kit is pretty close to the volume and tone pots. I don't have much room off the board to put the grounding strip. Is there any harm in elevating it above the top 3rd of the circuit board? I am holding it in my hand here in the photo, where I was kinda figuring it may end up. I was thinking I'd drill a hole in the right side of the chassis for a ground lug and mount the end of the ground strip there. I'd carefully place it a safe distance from the input jacks and then run it along the top 3rd of the circuit board as shown.

Maybe I should solder it to the back of the pots and attach my wires to it there? Any thoughts? Thanks, Keith

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kAgPqDF4Hwk/T76VBJlKM_I/AAAAAAAAA5M/Rvq6nK_jxHE/s800/IMGP3564.JPG

Ideally (if you haven't soldered your tube sockets, yet) you should remove the board and controls and do this outside the chassis where you have room to work.

Use a dremel to remove the insulative paint on the ends and at various points along the path of the bus. Bend it to fit and stick it in the open turret on your third filter cap. Let it ride 1/4 or so north of the turrets.

Ground the bus at the most easily accessible ground tab on one input jack.

Use a 3/8" star washer on the back of that jack.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-58K82EZlQac/Tz1rON5KUaI/AAAAAAAAAzY/gZzjevy0Wk4/s512/IMGP2652.JPG

Keithb7,

I'm guessing that the jack on the back of the TD is the Ext Spkr? I think that's a great idea, as those output jacks are placed between hot tubes, a great 'opportunity' for a burned hand. Did you have Bruce cut that out for you? How do you keep the wires short?

I want an accessible Ext Spkr and VVR knob, but want to keep those vintage looks. Yours doesn't detract at all, I like!

I can't wait to see my Memphis Amps cab!

Charisjapan, yes that is an extension jack on the tweed deluxe. The cab was built by Memphis Amps as you know. There is a bit of a story behind that cab.
I was looking to build my first amp and I found, what appeared to be a near new, used TD cab for sale in the classified section of a different forum. Seller also had a matching tweed bottom cab. It all looked awesome. I had no idea who built it, but the price was excellent so I immediately bought it. However I only bought the combo and not the bottom cab. When it arrived I was very impressed with the cab an contacted to seller to find out who built it. I had never heard of the builder who was Bruce at Memphis Amps. I assume the previous owner had the jack installed. It arrived like that. I can't answer your questions about the wiring. My understanding is the OT on the tweed deluxe is 8 ohm. I run an 8 ohm C12N speaker. If you want to run an extension speaker too, you need to make sure the amp only sees 8 ohm total, I believe. So 2, 16 ohm speakers I guess. In the end when I wanted to build my 5F2A, I immediately contacted Memphis amps to custom build me the cab I wanted. Once again I was no let down, it's a beautiful cab as Bruce does a great job.

Best of luck with your cab. If you like I can take a photo with more detail on the jack, for you. - Keith

Charisjapan, yes that is an extension jack on the tweed deluxe. The cab was built by Memphis Amps as you know. There is a bit of a story behind that cab.
I was looking to build my first amp and I found, what appeared to be a near new, used TD cab for sale in the classified section of a different forum. Seller also had a matching tweed bottom cab. It all looked awesome. I had no idea who built it, but the price was excellent so I immediately bought it. However I only bought the combo and not the bottom cab. When it arrived I was very impressed with the cab an contacted to seller to find out who built it. I had never heard of the builder who was Bruce at Memphis Amps. I assume the previous owner had the jack installed. It arrived like that. I can't answer your questions about the wiring. My understanding is the OT on the tweed deluxe is 8 ohm. I run an 8 ohm C12N speaker. If you want to run an extension speaker too, you need to make sure the amp only sees 8 ohm total, I believe. So 2, 16 ohm speakers I guess. In the end when I wanted to build my 5F2A, I immediately contacted Memphis amps to custom build me the cab I wanted. Once again I was no let down, it's a beautiful cab as Bruce does a great job.

Best of luck with your cab. If you like I can take a photo with more detail on the jack, for you. - Keith

Keith,

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, if it's not too much bother, I would like to see some closeups.

Now that I'm getting closer to my own build coming together, I want to answer a few nagging questions about those jacks.

1) I thought I remembered the green tip wire (as well as grid wires to the preamp tubes) being really sensitive to length and lead dress. I wondered how that worked with the connection of main speaker tipe to external speaker tip? That's assuming that the ground wires are not quite so critical.

2) On my cheapo combo, when you plug into the external jack, the main speaker cuts out. That way you don't have to worry about what the combination of the speakers' ohmage is, only the external. But yeah, if both work, you DO have to figure that in. hmmm...? :?:

3) I got an OT that works with 4/8/16 ohms. Some builders use a 3-way rotary switch, but I was thinking of only needing 4 and 8 ohms, so just an A/B switch will work. Right?

I'll probably ask this same question on my build thread, but since you brought it up... :wink:

Ever heard the saying, "Pride Comes Right Before A Fall"? Well I was feeling exceptionally proud of my power supply and transformer wiring tonight. Thanks to the helping members here, I finally hooked up all the PT wires. I used anchors and tight twists! Then right after gloating about it all, I burned the black power supply wire shown, and crushed the plastic in my indicator light while trying to tighten it down. Off tomorrow to find a new lamp assy. Oh well. She's coming along. Kinda like the old Pontiac commercials, I am starting to "Feel The Excitement!"

Should I get the red/yellow center tap wire from the PT away from the green twisted wires for the heaters? Will this create noise? See in pic.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9XWqGsmWKZs/T77s1srOnOI/AAAAAAAAA5w/h371zMRLC3M/s800/IMGP3569.JPG

Japan-man, I will post the pics and add my .02 on your build thread. :razz:

Got the tone stack, jacks and ground strip done tonight. I don't like the look of the tone bleed capacitor. I cut it before I had a plan for the ground strip. Oh well. I used left over pieces of the ground strip to mount the main strip to the turrets while keeping it up for clearance. Also used pieces to mount to the input jacks. It feels good and is firmly in place. I checked all my grounds with a MM and all seems good. I hope it works well. Sure hope I don't have to take that main board out again any time soon!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-liC1wmfe0Es/T78AjCGM72I/AAAAAAAAA6E/_brGNNLZWqc/s800/IMGP3576.JPG

Looks real nice so far.

[QUOTE=keithb7;4184366]Ever heard the saying, "Pride Comes Right Before A Fall"? Well I was feeling exceptionally proud of my power supply and transformer wiring tonight. Thanks to the helping members here, I finally hooked up all the PT wires. I used anchors and tight twists! Then right after gloating about it all, I burned the black power supply wire shown, and crushed the plastic in my indicator light while trying to tighten it down. Off tomorrow to find a new lamp assy. Oh well. She's coming along. Kinda like the old Pontiac commercials, I am starting to "Feel The Excitement!"

Should I get the red/yellow center tap wire from the PT away from the green twisted wires for the heaters? Will this create noise? See in pic.

The way you have it is OK.

Is there a heater center tap?

Moot point now, but you can use that unused outside leg on the pilot light for a solder tab. It is connected internally to the opposing tab. It is the shell on the lamp assembly.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9XWqGsmWKZs/T77s1srOnOI/AAAAAAAAA5w/h371zMRLC3M/s800/IMGP3569.JPG

Got the tone stack, jacks and ground strip done tonight. I don't like the look of the tone bleed capacitor. I cut it before I had a plan for the ground strip. Oh well. I used left over pieces of the ground strip to mount the main strip to the turrets while keeping it up for clearance. Also used pieces to mount to the input jacks. It feels good and is firmly in place. I checked all my grounds with a MM and all seems good. I hope it works well. Sure hope I don't have to take that main board out again any time soon!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-liC1wmfe0Es/T78AjCGM72I/AAAAAAAAA6E/_brGNNLZWqc/s800/IMGP3576.JPG

Hard to see clearly in the pic, but it looks like you have the inside jack's ground tab soldered by wire to the bus AND to the jack next door.

Only one ground is required. An extra ground creates a ground loop.

In the future (please take this in the spirit of brotherly love with fond regards and my best intentions!) use any other color wire other than green wire for hot side leads and hook ups.

Why is green bad on that side?

Why is green bad on that side?

Not bad, per se. Green or black is customarily used for ground wiring.

Using contrasting colors helps others (and yourself) to see what's what.

Thanks for the tips. I was scratching my head over the plethora of wire colors you provided Dave. I just picked on and ran wit it. There was plenty of green. I did change up a few colors on the tube side so I could trouble shoot if necessary. I will look into the ground loop you mentioned. Thanks.

Dave I looked again at the Weber 5F2A layout, as shown here below. It shows the sleeve (G) of input 2 going to ground. On my amp I attached the ground strip to this point.

I also see that the switch, center lug of input 2 is going to input 1 tip. From there the signal goes through the 1 meg resistor, then to the sleeve (G) of tip 1 to ground. This tip, is supposed to go to ground, which I also connected to my grounding strip. You can see my grounding strip in my photo connected to input 1 and 2 as described. Did I create a ground loop? I thought that I wired mine as shown in the layout. Should I remove the wire from input 2 (S) connected to input 1 (T)? Thanks,

http://taweber.powweb.com/store/5f2a_layout.jpg

The two jacks make ground by virtue of the fact that - when bolted tightly - their bodies make direct contact with the chassis (unless some non conductive fibre washers are used to isolate them from the chassis).

Your ground bus is sending - anything connected to it - to ground (ground = 0 volts) via ONE input jack's ground lug (solder tab) .

The other input jack needs no connection to the ground bus...

BECAUSE it grounds itself to the chassis.

It is not a big deal. It will work the way you have it, but...

a small ground loop exists and it will cause some small noise. Perhaps inaudible to the human ear. Perhaps not.

Here's the essence of my proposition: Do not create unwanted noise when it is easy to avoid.

Makes sense. Thanks Dave. I will remove the connection from ground buss to input 1, G tip, which is the input with the 1 meg resistor.

Looking good Dave...bummer about the burnt lead but nothing a simple splice wont remedy...

what brand Resistors does Dave provides in his kits??

Not to hi-jack your thread at all but I noticed Charis-japan mentioned his primary speaker will wuit playing once the 2nd is plugged in and I wanted to show him this..Same thing happened to me on our forst 3 5E3 builds as per diagram..after feeling it wasn't acceptable to have this happening I ntoice there is an updated layout on the kits coming out of toronto

Here's how they used to set them up which causes one speaker to quit
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj134/livtohunt60/3-3.jpg

Here's how they need to be wired to make them both work.NOTE impedance MUST BE an 8ohm load when plugged into both as with single..
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj134/livtohunt60/recropped.jpg

Have a look at your current setup Charis and compare it to these photos..Cheers

I plugged in my amp tonight for some testing. Pilot lamp works. No smoke. So far so good. Plugged in some tubes and turned it on. 12AX7 and 6V6 are glowing but the rectifier is not. No sound. Pulled the tubes and took some measurements around the PT. Here is what I get:

Measuring across the heater wires I get 7.2V AC
Red wires from PT: 400V AC
Yellow wires: 1 pin on first yellow wire, other to ground gets me 64V A/C. Other yellow wire and to ground gets me 62V. (kinda adds up to 120. Coincidence?) If I put a probe on each yellow wire and measure across I get 5.7V AC. I assume I am supposed to measure across both yellow wires to get 5.7V. Do these voltages seem ok?
Thanks.

Looking good Dave...bummer about the burnt lead but nothing a simple splice wont remedy...

what brand Resistors does Dave provides in his kits??

Not to hi-jack your thread at all but I noticed Charis-japan mentioned his primary speaker will wuit playing once the 2nd is plugged in and I wanted to show him this..Same thing happened to me on our forst 3 5E3 builds as per diagram..after feeling it wasn't acceptable to have this happening I ntoice there is an updated layout on the kits coming out of toronto

Here's how they used to set them up which causes one speaker to quit
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj134/livtohunt60/recropped2.jpg

Here's how they need to be wired to make them both work.NOTE impedance MUST BE an 8ohm load when plugged into both as with single..
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj134/livtohunt60/recropped.jpg

Have a look at your current setup Charis and compare it to these photos..Cheers

Ummm... Ernie?

Those look the same to me. They are both parallel, right? You would need an external switch with an isolate circuit switch. (I think)

The purpose, at least on my MIJ combo, is so that when you DO hook up an external speaker you don't have to change the internal speaker to get the correct ohms. If the internal/external speaker jacks are simply parallel or series, then you MUST have both speakers connected, OR have a 4/8 ohm switch and make sure to change if you unplug.

So, muddling through all this, I went to Switchcraft and found a spec chart for 39 different jacks!! :shock:

Jack Schematics (http://www.switchcraft.com/Documents/Jack_Schematics.pdf) WoWser!

I'm grasping the shunt, and now the 'make curcuit' and 'isolate circuit' idea (I think).

I plugged in my amp tonight for some testing. Pilot lamp works. No smoke. So far so good. Plugged in some tubes and turned it on. 12AX7 and 6V6 are glowing but the rectifier is not. No sound.

Keith,

Lamp on and no smoke is great, but no sound is a bummer! :sad:

We're rootin' for ya!

First of all are the yellow wires the HT secondary and red 5VAC? It looks like you have wired it reverse...Yellow pins 2-8 Red pins 4-6. I would try your readings first with no tubes...B+ should be around 420V or more.

[QUOTE=keithb7;4184366]


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9XWqGsmWKZs/T77s1srOnOI/AAAAAAAAA5w/h371zMRLC3M/s800/IMGP3569.JPG

Keithb7, unless this is an old pic or I am missing it, I don't see where your rectifier cathode (eight) is going into the power rail. But I would think you would still see a glow on the tube, hmm.

Also, maybe a q for the wizards around here, is it best practice if you have a ground buss bar to send your pots there vs. just soldering the lug to the back of the pot a' la dozens of years of major manufacturer's technique? I'm just curious, cause in my boothills 5e3 kit he gave me the bus bar which i've not used in any of my 3 builds.

Also, maybe a q for the wizards around here, is it best practice if you have a ground buss bar to send your pots there vs. just soldering the lug to the back of the pot a' la dozens of years of major manufacturer's technique? I'm just curious, cause in my boothills 5e3 kit he gave me the bus bar which i've not used in any of my 3 builds.

I think the idea is that the buss bar provides a single solid ground point for the preamp circuit. using the back of the pot implies that the pot is well grounded and won't shake loose. in most situations that's a reasonable assumption and it's worked for you. I used the buss bar concept on my 5e3, but just ran wires to a single bolt on my 5f2a since there were only 4 wires.

I think the idea is that the buss bar provides a single solid ground point for the preamp circuit. using the back of the pot implies that the pot is well grounded and won't shake loose. in most situations that's a reasonable assumption and it's worked for you. I used the buss bar concept on my 5e3, but just ran wires to a single bolt on my 5f2a since there were only 4 wires.

Cool. That's what I thought; insurance :)
Thanks.

Thanks for the support guys. I'll get this working, with your assistance.
Andy Denver, yes that is an earlier photo of the power supply. The wire from pin 8 of the rectifier is now going to the power rail.

Telenut62, I don't think I have the rectifier wires hooked up wrong.I have 400V at the red wires and they are hooked up to pins 4 & 6. Yellow wires are hooked to pins 2 & 8.

I was up early thinking about my wiring, I double checked everything this morning. I did find that I got my V1 wiring backwards. I wired it on the sheet as viewed from inside the amp, not as viewed from the bottom as I was supposed to. Doah, rookie mistake. Other tubes are wired right. I'll rewire V1, flash it up and see what I get. I wonder if V1 wiring would effect the 5Y3, as mine isn't lighting up? Oh well we'll see.
I did forget to mention that the 5Y3 I am using is a known working tube. I just tried it in another amp. Reporting back later...

CharisJapan...you're right I did have both the same photos..I was tired when I finished posting tham but have since corrected..The 2nd photo is for 2x8ohm speakers only, NOT wire into 4ohm but my point was if I had a sinlge 8ohm in my combo cab and wanted to plug and Seperate 8ohm extension speaker into the used input jack I wanted it to remain 8ohm....thus via the 2nd photo and it works..

take a look at my 5F1 build thread and you'll see how the guys had me run the 4/8ohm wiring from the single output jack and a switch..it works..

Wonder how Keiths making out with his new build now...any new photos ??

Might be a good idea to put some heat-shrink over those fuse-holder terminals. Those things can be lethal should you accidentally make contact with them when testing your amp (not that you should try)

Yes, to all fellow amp builders....buy and use a plug-in residual current device (RCD) circuit breaker. I learnt the hard way, picking up a DR in progress...didn't look down to see if it was unplugged. Next thing I'm getting buzzed holding the amp with both hands, I should be dead or seriously injured. The only thing that saved me was my sneakers and the carpet....and I let go within a second. A friend who is a pro amp repairer had done the exact same thing, he lost a finger.

Back to thread Keithb7...don't forget the heater wiring CT, I don't see one or the two resistors.

Yes, to all fellow amp builders....buy and use a plug-in residual current device (RCD) circuit breaker. I learnt the hard way, picking up a DR in progress...didn't look down to see if it was unplugged. Next thing I'm getting buzzed holding the amp with both hands, I should be dead or seriously injured. The only thing that saved me was my sneakers and the carpet....and I let go within a second. A friend who is a pro amp repairer had done the exact same thing, he lost a finger.


uugh, I feel queasy now. Glad you survived! I've never heard of one of those, thank you.
@keith, rats...

From wiki:

The 12AX7 is basically two 6AV6 triodes in one package. The 6AV6 was a miniature repackaging (with just a single cathode) of the triode and twin diodes from the octal 6SQ7 (a double-diode triode used in AM radios), which itself was very similar to the older type 75 triode-diode dating from 1930.

12AX7 (also known as ECC83) is a miniature dual triode vacuum tube with high voltage gain. It was developed around 1946 by RCA engineers[1] in Harrison, New Jersey, under developmental number A-4522. It was released for public sale under the 12AX7 identifier on September 15, 1947. The 12AX7 was originally intended as replacement for the 6SL7 family of dual-triode amplifier tubes for audio applications. It is popular with tube amplifier enthusiasts, and its ongoing use in such equipment makes it one of the few small-signal vacuum tubes in continuous production since it was introduced.

To wire its two sides correctly, one should recall that the 12AX7 is two tubes in one envelope.

123

Pin 1 is the plate (anode)
pin 2 is the grid (input)
pin 3 is the cathode (bias)

678

Pin 6 is the plate
Pin 7 is the grid
pin 8 is the cathode

4,5 and 9 are heaters

Back to thread Keithb7...don't forget the heater wiring CT, I don't see one or the two resistors.

I have not had time to work on my amp lately. Maybe tonight. I am struggling a little still over the lack of proper PT instructions or wiring from Heyboer. I installed it based on the best info I could gather up. Earlier posts above addressed this. As far as I can tell there is no heater wiring center tap. The only CT I have is the red/yellow for the 400V red wires. What two resistors are you referring to? I did not realize I was missing any. I built my circuit like the above posted Weber 5F2A layout. Minus the heater CT, as I have been successful in locating th CT wire. I plan re-wire my 12ax7 later, I'll repost my findings that time. Thx

the heater ct is usually green and yellow and should go to ground. as the weber drawing says, you need to do the resistors or ground the ct, not both.

the heater ct is usually green and yellow and should go to ground. as the weber drawing says, you need to do the resistors or ground the ct, not both.

I am prepared to do what I need to but sorry I don't understand what you are suggesting here. Which resistors where do I need to ground? I am still in the learning stages with amp building. The last amp I built was a kit with good instructions, this one I have little directions to go off. I planned to build a 5F2A and ordered a Heyboer PT, unknown to me, when I ordered it, it's not wired like the Weber PT in the layout above. I have no heater CT it seems. So instead of grounding the CT I am to ground some resistors instead? Thanks for any help. Keith

If you do not have a heater center tap on your power transformer, you must run two 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistors to ground to create an artificial center tap. If you do not have a center tap, you will get 120 cycle hum. Each 100 ohm resistor is soldered to one of the heater wires. The other ends of the 100 ohm resistors are twisted together and then soldered to ground.

I think I need to take a break from this build for a little while to clear my head. I a not making any progress it seems. Something is up and so far I can't locate it. The PT is not making sense to me. The lack of help or drawings from Heyboer is making me second guess how it should be hooked up. I am getting weird voltages on my heater wires, my 5Y3 won't light up, and I have no sound. I have been tinkering away but it's not adding up. I need to clear my head and take a fresh look at it in a week or so.

Keith, maybe I going blind, or crazy, or both, but which way are the filter caps running?
The MIEC caps seem backwards to me. I use them and the arrow usually points to +.
Also the metal vs plastic ends, the metal side is +.
If this is another senior moment for me, please overlook my post.
I have stared at the pics posted and unless I'm seeing dead wrong, those caps are reversed.


Also, are both heater wires on the same terminal of the pilot lamp?
I'm looking at your pics on an I Pad and when I try t o expand it, it starts juming all over the place, so I can't see that well, but it looks like both heater wires are on the same terminal.
Again, could just be one of those moments, sorry if I've seen everything wrong myself, but I think your real close to getting this baby fired up and just trying to help.

All caps are ok for orientation as far as I can see

Telenut, It appears you are correct.
I got a sack of these from Justradios, and loaded an 5f1 board just last nite, guess I shouldn't watch Madmen while loading a turret board.
I haven't soldered it yet, so all I have to do is switch them around.
As I said it appears that my senior moments are turning into hours.
So Keith everything I said....never mind.

If you happen to have a filter cap on the wrong way and power up....you don't have to wait long for a reaction, believe me I know :wink:

Keithb7. This is from a diff Fender but applies and shows what the gents are referring to:

Thanks Andy that makes sense. I will be installing 2 resistors in due time.
I may turn this into the longest build thread on record, but I am not prepared to give up. This amp is not working. It seems like a pretty simple circuit the 5F2A, I still think that Heyboer PT, is guilty. I will strip down my questions in simple terms and maybe iron out a few concerns.

Bill from Mission Amps provided me with the following PT wiring diagram. It came from a Mojo 760EX PT. The wire colors match my HY022772 Heyboer model exactly. What Ernie said in an earlier post, also seems to correspond to this wiring diagram. As mentioned earlier I am getting no help from Heyboer so I am trying to eliminate a possible problem here.

I have drawn in here, how I have my 120V main power hooked up. The wire colors I circled, are covered in heat shrink and tied away safely, not being used. Right now I get 400V AC from both of the solid red wires. I measure these with one probe to ground, then the other on each red wire, individually. All voltage measurements taken with out any tubes in.

Next I put one probe on each green heater wire and measure across both wires, not one probe to ground as I did when measuring the red wires. I get 7.0V AC.
Measuring across both yellow wires, and not putting one probe to ground, I get 5.7V AC. Does anyone see any problem here? Not sure why I am getting 7.0V across heater wires. I have not yet hooked up the 2 resistors to simulate a center tap across the green wires. Could this be why? If this all seems fine, I will move on to my next question. Thanks, Keith

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DMK674-zvOw/T8bp8y13nvI/AAAAAAAAA6Y/1aec1FV5yq0/s512/scan0008.jpg

Voltages appear normal. Install your rectifier tube and test for high voltage DC current on pin 2 or 8.

Use a wire leed with alligator clips on each end. Clip one end to the meter's black probe and the other to a ground point on the chassis.

Put one hand behind your back and use one hand to probe the pin (High Voltage DC should be present - in the neigborhood of 400v or more.)

Rectifier converts AC to DC.

Note: The amp should function regardless of whether or not it has an artificial center tap on the heaters. As you suspect, this is not a concern at this point.

http://www.geofex.com/ampdbug/ampdebug.htm

Mojotone use Heyboer trans, so the wiring will match up. Looking good so far, fingers crossed.

As Dave suggested, I plugged in my 5Y3. It lights up and gets warm I could hear it sizzling a little :mrgreen: . At the 2 yellow wires on pins 2 or 8 I get 518V and 519V. One lead on ground, as suggested. Too much, or ok move on? I used an el-cheapo Sovtek 5Y3 incase something went wrong. I'd rather waste one of those than my RCA, I expect my RCA will put out less voltage.

Your voltage is good. it is extral high b/c you have no other tubes to use the current.

Now hook up a speaker, and install the other tubes.

Look for the heaters to be on.

Heaters on? Any gentle hum from speaker?

Check voltages down the line.

Ground the black terminal probe on your meter like before.

One hand behind your back.

Treat the live amplifier like you would treat a woman or captain a big ship.

To wit: Don't be in a hurry. Move slowly, methodically and with due care.

Dave, I took your advice and slowed down tonight. I met her parents first, took her for a walk down by the river with a blanket and some red wine. We laughed when she yanked out a walleye on my hook and bobber, and it landed in her lap. I really took things slow, I calculated my every move and it paid off big time. SCORE!!! Tonight we have what seems to be, a fully functioning 5F2A that sounds great. She's a nasty little thing and can really get dirty when pushed hard. This 5F2A breaks up very nice. Volume at 6 she's crunchy. At 12...Whoa. More than I expected. Getting close to my 5E3 grind where it almost sounds like it's folding in on itself.

I did install the 2 100 ohm resistors on the heater wires to simulate a center tap.
Thanks for that tip guys. I really had never bumped into that before and knew nothing about it. I've got some wires to clean up yet. I plan to install a NFB cut switch, a 4 ohm/8 ohm switch, and also was thinking about a tone stack cut out switch. I was thinking by cutting out the tone knob it may provide more gain. (not sure I need it though). Thinking it may simulate the 5F1 without a tone stack.

What I learned today was that I had some wiring wrong on the tube sockets. The Weber layout diagram shown in an earlier post, does not show the sockets from the bottom view. They are shown just like you are looking inside the chassis and looking down on the tube sockets from the top side. I had the 12AX7 and 5Y3 wired wrong. I guess I went a little to quickly there, even though I thought I had it right. I had it right the first time I wired it, then thought I had it backwards and re-wired it. Tonight I got it right again. Sheesh...

My amp is very quiet at idle even when the volume is maxed. Another fire breathing Boothill Amp Kit. Thanks everyone. Special thanks to Hackworth1 who not only sold me the amp kit, also offered great support. What a great forum this is!

Hey...cool well done, knew you could do it.

Phew!!
Awesome!

congrats! that's awesome!

More playing and testing. I am happy so I proceeded to install a few simple mods. I drilled and installed a Negative Feedback Switch on the face of the amp, beside the pilot lamp. I installed the impedance selector switch on the bottom, down beside the speaker jack. I figure you need to go down there to plug in a cab so why not have it there beside the jack. 8 ohm for the speaker in the combo, and 4 ohm for my 2 x 12 Bandmaster cab if I want to plug in there.

Biggest surprise to me was how much I like the option to turn off the NFB. I have never had the opportunity to try this before. For what I like in a dirty tweed sound, it suits my tastes excellent. Switching the NFB off, it's like a gain boost. The amp gets a bit brighter, a little more static noise at idle but is a real grinder. Especially with my ES-339. Feedback and sustain a-plenty if wanted. No need to bother trying the tone stack cuff off switch mod I was thinking of. I can't see myself needing more grind from this amp. There is not very much head room with this amp. It suits me perfectly, very glad I built it. Tomorrow I'll drill the cabinet to bolt in the chassis. Here are some updated photos. Power trans is the Heyboer HY022772. Output Trans is Allen T08C. You can see my micro switches here too.

The tone bleed knob seems to work best up to about 10 or so. After that it's like it's not there. Cranked, you really don't need it anyway. It just flat out kills.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-opcCxYgqy80/T8mqo8AH3OI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/VY3bOdMwYxo/s800/IMGP3588.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I9iIlJughQI/T8mqjZlJiFI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/R5HX2JNLo8A/s800/IMGP3589.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_gaXkY57_UM/T8mq9n3W0aI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/3Uo9PDbL4lA/s800/IMGP3590.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2TcnB3Z2U3U/T8mrBGbi8OI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/NvsQilf3xII/s800/IMGP3591.JPG

Tubes are all NOS. GE 6V6GT, RCA 12AX7, RCA 5Y3GT
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-riY4NWeNG_Y/T8mqnFuZydI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/8d6oWkggW5o/s800/IMGP3586.JPG

Keith,

A hearty round of cheers and congratulations!!:grin:

That's a beautiful build, and glad it sounds great. Also happy you put in the NFB switch, the location looks good. I agree about the location of the impedance selector, too... makes sense.

Omedetou gozaimasu! (congrats)

charisjapan

Here are some finished photos with a sound clip and summary:

10A100 Weber Speaker 15W & 5F2A Chassis
Boothill 5F2A Kit
Heyboer PT
Allen T08C OT with Multi Tap
Negative Feedback Switch
Memphis Amps Cab

The "Custom" name plate came off an old car. Unsure what model, Ford I think. I got it for $2 at a flea market. I kinda like it, so it'll stay.

Here's a sound clip with various volume, tone and NFB settings.
Guitar used here is a stock USA American Series Strat straight in. No effects. AKG C214 condenser mic.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11710211&q=hi&newref=1

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-21-TVZ_gYps/T9zWdPLpixI/AAAAAAAAA8M/4se1qx_wiVY/s800/IMGP3619.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sjnDnSs__EY/T9zWdDAIANI/AAAAAAAAA8M/gbwf9vJhgWw/s800/IMGP3622.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rJu_-MI4yKs/T9zWdLyO3_I/AAAAAAAAA8M/ICykWmUOfo4/s800/IMGP3625.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G0uoMwS2Pv4/T9zW0qd_8nI/AAAAAAAAA8M/I359PEEMXOQ/s800/IMGP3628.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vwkPrYp6kIA/T9zW1zxgj_I/AAAAAAAAA8M/78Li1jBRlxs/s800/IMGP3633.JPG

Been a few weeks now and have had time to give the amp a good run. I used it last night with a 4 pc band. Classic rock type music. Lightish handed drummer, and could keep up, just barely but could. Real nice natural tube OD that cuts through.
Overall a fun, rewarding build. I learned some more and achieved what I wanted, pure natural tube OD at lower volumes.

Super duper trooper!!! :wink:

I can't access the clip from my phone. I know it sounds good though. You hung in there and made it happen. Good work! Looks very pro and the Custom sign is awesome!!!
So............what's next ;)
Totally aside, how do you like the 214? I've had a couple 414s but traded for studio time. Have you used both to compare? I kind of want one.

Dave, I took your advice and slowed down tonight. I met her parents first, took her for a walk down by the river with a blanket and some red wine. We laughed when she yanked out a walleye on my hook and bobber, and it landed in her lap. I really took things slow, I calculated my every move and it paid off big time. SCORE!!!
ok. Now that all is well, I can razz you about this post :) The sexual undercurrent could light a city!!!!

Thanks Andy. I hung in there cause I had to wrap this thread up! I had over 3500 hits my pride depended on it! LOL.

The AKG C214 is real nice mic. Best one I ever owned. I bought it new and it was a pretty hefty sum for a hobbyist, I thought. I don't have a lot to compare it to as my only other mic is an SM57. Works for me, more than adequate.

What's next?...You know, that's tough to answer. You and I both know there will be more, but I am running out of excuses to give my wife. Right now I am spreading word around looking for someone who wants one built. I am thinking a 5F1 maybe. Custom too, with NFB, a 10" speaker with multi-tap OT too. I love them little tweeds. I can almost justify keeping and owning the 5F1, to compliment my 5F2A & 5E3. Then after the 5F1, maybe a harvard!!! Ya, that's it, now I have a plan.

What part was sexual?:lol:
I was expecting someone to tease me about the sexual undercurrent in that earlier post, a long time ago. I threw it out there for some fun. I was having fun. I was starting to think you guys were too serious maybe! It's all good.

awesome build!
sounds great, too! thanks for posting those sound clips :cool:

Thanks Keith!
OMG, I just thought of a ridiculous t shirt idea TDPRI could sell: "We bleed tweed"