OK fellers, My hat's in the recording ring! Welcoming all input and feedback!

Hey guys,

been digging the great vibe here in the recording forum. Sometimes it can be down right intimidating :shock: with all the top notch talent here like Scat, Woody, 64, Geoff and rest of you recording masters.

I'm still using my basic gear to record and instead of waiting to upgrade I'm making a concerted effort to wring everything out of what I have:
Nady spc 25 condenser mic, > Art preamp > Behringer Ucontrol interface > old desktop running xp with Reaper.

My Monitoring is done through a pair of cyber acoustic desktop pc speakers and a pair of Bose "outdoor" speakers and a $10 pair of sony headphones running through a vector research stereo receiver. (all taken from the electronics bin at the dump:shock::mrgreen: Thrifty up here in New England!)

Hope you guys can help, this is what I'm working on: Separation of instruments in the mix. Clarity, too often I'm getting very muddy mixes especially vocals. Trying to get the bass to cut through even on laptops - this has been a bugger!

Improved overall clarity and having everything sit in the mix is my ultimate goal. Mixes of my songs are all over the place. Recently have been working on standardizing my recording process IE: making/saving presets for my vox, accoustic, bass, electric guit etc...
I know my musicianship and singing are lacking :mrgreen: but if you can get beyond those and listen to how things have been recorded and mixed that would truly appreciated!


So, here it is:

Rainy Season of Tears (Sittin' in the Kitchen) It's the last song on page two of my "profile"

http://www.ttmbandroom.com/KC/audio.php?p=2

Thanks guys!

KC

Good to see you're getting started, KC! This particular mix could benefit by scooping out a curve in the upper mids (2-3K) on the acoustic guitar and warming it up with some low mids in the 400-500 range ... was this recorded with a pickup? Also, vocal intelligibility could be improved by backing off the reverb a bit, unless you're going for that wet sound. ... Keep on truckin'!

Hate being the first to comment but welcome to the forum. The first things that stood out for me were timing and what may be mic placement. Everything seemed to be either miced from too far away or too much reverb? The bass actually sounded ok.

There are many videos on youtube showing mic placement techniques which you may find interesting. As for timing, assuming you used a click, percussion can help hold a recordong together. Whether you use some inbuilt stuff from Reaper (don't know if it has any) or just play tambourine ,shakers, egg, cogas or something yourself it would certainly add to the recording.

Separation can be achived by panning and cutting unwanted frequencies from other tracks. eg. use a high pass fliter to cut bottoms below approx 100hz from vox or guitars.

This is a hobby that can take a lot of time and effort to get to a stage where you might be happy with your recordings but can be very rewarding along the way. Personally i have along way to go still but am enjoying the journey tremendously. I would suggest that you keep posting your efforts here and searching the net for info on recording and mixing techniques.

Edit:- Thought I was the first but Woodman snuck in while I was typing. He always has good advice and obviously good ears so worth trying anything he suggests.

Thanks for the feed back guys.

Woody: Yes the accoustic guit - a cheapy - was recorded with the built in pick-up and it does come across as very bright - almost stringent. Vol. on guit is set at 90% and tone is set at 20%. It sounds much more mellow in the room but my mic/preamp set-up isn't good enought to capture that.

Definitely not going for the wet sound. Not sure if this is stantdard buy I put light reverb on each channel and then a light final reverb in the master. I'll try those recommendations later today. Thanks Woody!

Petey, everything went in direct. with expception of vox of course. One difference between the bass and the other tracks is the bass is around -4db and the others are around -9-10db. I'm not sure if that would make them sound like they were mic'd far away. I'can bring the levels up and try boosting the preamp and see how that sounds.

Settings "going in":

vox, sung about 3.5" from mic, preamp= gain full, output full, phantom power on. (maybe I should take the windscreen off?
electric single bridge pup, vol max, preamp= gain 12:00, output full, phantom power on.
Accoustic pup vol 90%, tone 20% preamp= gain 2:00, output full, phantom power on.
Bass both pups vol 100% tone 50%, preamp=gain 11:00, output full, phantom power on

My timing is off - I didn't use anything, just played. All my recordings are seriously lacking percussion of any sort. I've never taken the time to learn how to do loops, ez drummer or any other program.etc... Guess there's no time like the present!

There is some panning but perhaps it should be more dramatic. I'll give that a shot too!

Thanks again guys,

KC

You might try laying your tracks in one by one.
I know it's not as spontaneous as playing at the same time, but it may help you figure out how to get the sound you want.

I'd probably lay the guitar in first, check it out, make adjustments, then go back and add in the bass, then add the vocals after you get the instruments like you want them.
(I see that Reaper's certainly capable of that.)

Does your sound card not have a Line In?
I'm just curious why you're going USB in.

KC,

It's great that you are doing this! This takes courage and it is the only way to learn how to do it and get better at it. All the previous comments are good ones, so no need for me to repeat things.

Seriously, I (like I'm sure woodman, petey & fenderfiend has) have started a project and then completely re-done it once I knew how to do it better, so don't be afraid to rip things apart and then put it back together. Too much reverb is a very common beginning mistake (or a seasoned veteran too, a'la Phil Spector), back it off and evaluate the quality of the dry recorded track first. Use a click track to keep time with but then mute it later after it's use is done. Panning, I sort of use for guitar somewhere in the 25 - 40% L or R as a standard. Bass I have up the middle, drums I pan out from R to L, main vox close to C and harmonies I'll spreadout sometimes. Play around with it.

Definitely not going for the wet sound. Not sure if this is stantdard buy I put light reverb on each channel and then a light final reverb in the master.

As part of your Phase 2 training, it'd be helpful if you learn how to set up an aux bus for your reverb — a 'verb on every channel will suck up your system resources, and a 'verb across your master will affect things you'd rather have dry (like bass and kick). Best way for most situations is:
* In your mix window, create a new Aux channel strip and put your reverb plug-in on it.
* Assign the Input of the Aux channel to Bus 1 (or whatever number).
* For whichever tracks you want 'verb on, set those channel strips' Sends to Bus 1.
* You can then control your reverb through both the Aux fader and the individual volume controls on each channel's Send. (Make sure both are turned up to some extent — I usually start with the Aux fader at 0 (unity gain), and dial in the Send volume to taste.
* The old rule of thumb for general reverb mixing is to turn it up 'til you can notice the reverb, then dial it back a little from there. That'll give it some air without the cavernous effect.

My timing is off - I didn't use anything, just played. All my recordings are seriously lacking percussion of any sort. I've never taken the time to learn how to do loops, ez drummer or any other program.etc... Guess there's no time like the present!


Yeah, your track took me back to the days when I was in the same boat. From a purely songwriting standpoint, the rhythm section was just a necessary evil. But the more you get into production, the more you'll find it an essential. ... Loops are easy — generally just drag 'n' drop — but your selection is limited to the library at hand. You might could find an old drum machine for cheap to start out on ... just start with preset patterns and embellish. I've had a lot of luck with EZDrummer — lots of patterns, fills, etc. Then, tailoring your tracks by moving hits around in a MIDI grid isn't rocket science. ... There are better and more sophisticated drum programs out there, but as a technical dunce, I find EZD to be right at my current comfort level.

As you dig into solving your technical problems and improving your audio, it may start seeming like the hassle factor is outweighing the fun (which is, after all, recording music and seeing how it sounds!) But believe me, turning out a finished project you're proud of is the amateur-recordist equivalent of winning the Super Bowl!

And, as stated, it really helps to put your stuff up here on the RIP to get kicked around — beyond all technical tips, the variety of opinions and insights has taught me that the biggest and hardest skill to master is learning to *listen*.

vox, sung about 3.5" from mic, preamp= gain full, output full, phantom power on. (maybe I should take the windscreen off?
electric single bridge pup, vol max, preamp= gain 12:00, output full, phantom power on.
Accoustic pup vol 90%, tone 20% preamp= gain 2:00, output full, phantom power on.
Bass both pups vol 100% tone 50%, preamp=gain 11:00, output full, phantom power on

My timing is off - I didn't use anything, just played. All my recordings are seriously lacking percussion of any sort. I've never taken the time to learn how to do loops, ez drummer or any other program.etc... Guess there's no time like the present!

The phantom power is only required for the condemser mic. Have a look in Reaper and see if you can find out how to set the click or metronome, this will help a lot with timing.

...believe me, turning out a finished project you're proud of is the amateur-recordist equivalent of winning the Super Bowl!

Can I get an Amen ?!?

.....beyond all technical tips, the variety of opinions and insights has taught me that the biggest and hardest skill to master, is learning to LISTEN.

THIS right here!!!!!!!!

Learning to listen with discernment and learn the skills of remedy.

Thanks for the intell guys.

FF - recorded my tracks first to last > Accoustic, 2 vox tracks, electric guitar then bass.
Regarding sound card vs. USB, I've always used USB. Don't know if my sound card is up to the task or how I'd get my power to the proper level for mini-plug line-in. Is one way better than the other for sound quality?

64, thanks for the support! Stripped all the vst's off of every track and the raw tracks sound pretty good - except for musicianship and timing issues - Maybe I should keep all my tracks raw until everything has been recorded and then add vsts and mix as needed.

Woody, the "bus route" seems like the way to go. I've downloaded a reaper guide and will read up on that shortly. Is the advantage of the Bus vs reverb/track simply a cpu usage issue or does it give the tune a more cohesive sound?

I've taken a look at EZD a while back. I'll have to revisit and see what I can come up with. Even just some basic beats for timing and to round out the sound.

I'll make these changes and post again!

KC

Woody, the "bus route" seems like the way to go. I've downloaded a reaper guide and will read up on that shortly. Is the advantage of the Bus vs reverb/track simply a cpu usage issue or does it give the tune a more cohesive sound?

The main thing about sending all your 'verb-laden channels through a common bus is to create the illusion of a spatial environment — when everything's reverberating at the same rate, it makes for coherent fake acoustics, sorta like everybody's in the same room.

Got it! Makes sense.

Hmmmmmmm . . . . Well, if you upgrade to usb2, you`ll about double the fidelity of the source material. Subscribe to tape op -it`s free, and exposes you to what people are doing from zillion dollar systems to more modest than yours!
give yourself some time to forego all effects, to get used to how instruments sit together.
listen to music you like constantly, and listen to your own and you`ll build intuition on getting from a to be.

MK, my older computer was USB 2. I assumed this one was too. I'll have to check.

Though the raw tracks sounded OK, I'm retracking everything using a click track and will post when I have everything down.

Also been looking at drum software "stuff" to beat my timing into submission and round out the sound!

kc

Regarding sound card vs. USB, I've always used USB. Don't know if my sound card is up to the task or how I'd get my power to the proper level for mini-plug line-in. Is one way better than the other for sound quality?
I've never been a fan of audio through USB, especially if you have sound card inputs.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "how I'd get my power to the proper level for mini-plug line-in".
It's a line level input, it's going to be the same level that you're inputting into your USB device.
You might need a very common mini plug to RCA adapter cable.

It would have to be a very crappy sound card for it not to be a better option.

However, like the guys keep saying, LISTEN to what's happening.
Try both and go with what sounds best.

I've never been a fan of audio through USB, especially if you have sound card inputs.


I don't know much about PCs, so bear with my ignorance ... you're saying you'd rather input to the computer rather than using an external interface?

OK, I'm back.

Retracked everything with a click track in Reaper. Wow, have to start practicing with a metronome again! There are still a lot of warts on this one. But I think there's been some improvement... I hope so!

Same recording setup except I swapped out a cheap Nady Dynamic for the cheap Nady condenser.

Woody: Scooped the mids on the accoustic and bumped the lower freqs per your suggestion. Haven't had a chance to read up on the "bus" I'll catch that next time. No verb on individual tracks and light, light verb in the master slot.

PeteyC: Everything went direct, vox were mic'd of course, Did use a click track this time. I knew my timing was off, didn't know it was off that much! Wow! Did work on my panning. Definitely made a difference to my ears.

FF: Everything is set-up so I'm still going USB 2.0. Haven't had a chance to look into the mini plug route. I'll see what other options are. Regarding that I'm looking at upgrading and thinking of going with the Alesis multimix 8 USB 2.0. It seems to have great reviews definitely interested in your input on that for sure!

64: Great advice. I tried going back for the "fix in the mix" and decided to start from scratch - ha ha he said scratch - recording pun :roll: - I plan on doing that again.

MonkeyK: Really laid off the vst's on this one especially as I recorded each track. Mostly EQ and classic limiter, spitfish on the vox and a Reaper resident bass boost on the um...bass.

With this remix/redux I was working on my
timing - sad to say for a bass player! -
How things sit in the mix,
clarity of the vox,
warm up the accoustic
Tried to have an appreciation for dynamics
And tried to underplay on electric - as I'm just learning but didn't succeed on that point!:lol:

I think there are parts that come together well in the tune and other areas where it falls dead flat!

If you could bear to listen to the whole tune that would great! :mrgreen:

They'll be no more "Sittin' in the kitchen" until there is a vast impovement based on your input and more time for me behind "the desk":mrgreen:

Here it is guys, Sittin' in the kitchen remix, last song on page 2 of my TTM profile:

http://www.ttmbandroom.com/KC/audio.php?p=2

Thanks for your feedback gents!

KC

Keep pluggin', mate — click track improved the cohesion. It'll improve more once you get some drum backing. ... The big hard-panned stereo vocal sorta dwarfs the acoustic, but it does sound less boomy. (You might experiment with putting the doubled vocal tracks closer together toward the center.) Back to the acoustic EQ: Look for a warm area in the low mids (tough with a pickup, though!). Play a CD of your mixes in your car stereo and whatever else you've got around.

Advice is all fine and good, but experience is the best teacher. Good luck!

Thanks for your input Woody. I appreciate the second listen.

Your right. It's just more time at the desk.:shock: A lot more time! :mrgreen:

tx,

KC

Certainly an improvement there. Have you tried mic'ing the acoustic? THis may get a rounder sound. The electric guitar fills might sit a bit better between the vocals as they seem to distract from them at the moment. Keep plugging away like the rest of us.

Same recording setup except I swapped out a cheap Nady Dynamic for the cheap Nady condenser.
Good decision. Condenser mics aren't as rugged as dynamic mics, but they have a more precise sound and that's what this called for.


FF: Everything is set-up so I'm still going USB 2.0. Haven't had a chance to look into the mini plug route. I'll see what other options are. Regarding that I'm looking at upgrading and thinking of going with the Alesis multimix 8 USB 2.0. It seems to have great reviews definitely interested in your input on that for sure!

Multiple inputs would make a USB interface worth it.
My objection was based on different methods of inputting only two channels.
(Inputting two channels via USB vs inputting two channels via "Line In".)
When given those two choices, I would choose the Line In option.

On the unit that you're looking at-
It took me a little while to verify this:

"This enables you to send 10 channels (8 input channels plus the 2-Track input) individually to the computer at up to 24-bit, 96 kHz resolution."

I couldn't find that statement on Sweetwater's spec sheet, but Alesis (http://www.alesis.com/multimix8usb20fx) had it on theirs.

This unit would be a good choice.

And again, a good choice on the type of mic you switched to.

Your recording is sounding better -cleaner.

"Progress is being made." :!:

Have you tried mic'ing the acoustic? THis may get a rounder sound.

^^^^^
This is what I was driving at ... acoustic pickups (unless you spend substantial bucks) aren't gonna deliver a lush, rich tone. However, I did have a bit of luck *once* combining mike and pickup, bringing the pickup channel up just enough to give a little definition.

KC,

You are making progress!

I digress for a moment.... This reminds me of me, years ago trying to figure out how other guys were getting good recordings... so there I was with a 4 track cassette recorder trying to figure out how they do it. :lol: Then I decided to get serious and did the current DAW system. I've made progress with the help of my friends here at RIP. I think we all learn something every day or week here. Basically, it boils down to sticking with it, listening, fixing what's wrong and seat time, i.e. experience on how to accomplish what's needed.

So, here is the hard bit and we all go through it. The laundry list of issues to address. :grin:

To make this song work, you need something to "glue" it together, like a rhythm track and a light drum kit doing something simple. This is just so the thing flows. Right now, it doesn't flow. I would use a simple drum track as the metronome and a good clean rhythm track as the guide. You can modify or not use all the rhythm track later in the final version but I think in the early stages you need it. Some folks, like me, do better with this as opposed to a click track, I've done it both ways and prefer the instruments myself.

Secondly, you need to be more precise on laying in the vocals. Timing, pitch & delivery are EVERYTHING! And you need all three for good vox tracks. There are some early spots where they are not in sync. Pitch is another issue that needs attention, I'm sure you hear it too. Do more takes until you get two that work together and try doubling them. Then we can get to the mix side of it and getting them to sit in the mix. I think if you get the rhythm flow going, it will also help your timing of the guitar fills too!

We're sticking with you on this! So, back to it! :wink: We've all spent and put our time in, now it's your turn. But above all, have fun! and make it a personal challenge to make this the best thing you've ever done.

Thanks PC, FF and 64,

I just have to suck-it-up and learn the drum "thing"! There's no way around it it's the elephant in the room. Well...not the only elephant but probably the biggest!

64, you're right, I do hear the vox issues.

Silly to say but I find recording a blast and sometimes the excitement wins out over the patience :shock: and I post too soon when things aren't "ready". :mrgreen:

I truly appreciate all the support guys....I have to go to the drum room now...

KC

Silly to say but I find recording a blast and sometimes the excitement wins out over the patience :shock: and I post too soon when things aren't "ready". :mrgreen:



KC

I do this all the time here and get my a$$ handed to me by Wood, Geoff & Petey!! LOL!!! :lol:

But eventually, I get it worked out. Nothing about this is easy.... Puts a whole new light on how good recordings are made.... doesn't it?!?

I just have to suck-it-up and learn the drum "thing"! There's no way around it it's the elephant in the room. Well...not the only elephant but probably the biggest!

Loops are probably your easiest door into virtual drums ... here's a link you might find handy: Reaper & drum loops (http://bookerjwood.blogspot.com/2010/06/reaper-drum-loop-guitar-crashcourse.html)

Drum machines with pre-programmed patterns are easy too ... you might be able to find one for peanuts on Craigslist.

Woody,

Just took a look at the link! Nice!!!!

Thanks!

kc