Could Use Some Help Constructing a New DI Rig

Hi guys and girls. I've been a long-time lurker, but this seems like a pretty nice worship area, so I figured I'd jump in. I've played on worship teams for 7ish years at this point, and am kind of a middling electric guitarist and decent acoustic guitarist, definitely more rhythm than lead.

My experience at the places I've played has been that the sound people always like a silent stage if possible, so they don't seem to like me bringing in amps as they bleed through. I've worked a bit on getting a nice portable rig that's all DI'ed and using headphones when possible, since I usually don't like sound that comes out of some of the cheap monitors on stage.

So...here's my challenge -- kind of a what-drink-should-I-make-with-what's-in-the-cabinet game: I have collected the gear listed below, and I'm asking for help in reconfiguring it to make a decent rig for a worship setup when I'm asked to DI. In my experience, I've played mostly contemporary Christian stuff along the lines of Hillsong, David Crowder, Chris Tomlin, etc.

So...the stuff:

Agile AL-3100
Squier Classic Vibe Custom Tele
Agile AL-2000 (slightly modded)
Squier Hello Kitty Strat (single HB in bridge -- Rose California, with concentric pot installed for tone)
G&L ASAT Classic Bluesboy
Seagull S6 A/E

Proco Turbo Rat
Korg Pitchblack
Crowther Hotcake
Tech 21 Sansamp GT2
Tech 21 Boost DLA
Boss DD-6
Digitech Bad Monkey
Hardwire RV-7 Reverb
Marshall Jackhammer
Boss RC-2 Looper

Tech 21 Trademark 60
Jet City RC2112RC
Fender Mustang I

Live Wire DI Box
Samson 4-channel Mixer
AKG K240 Headphones

I've tried lots of stuff and used to rock a Boss ME-50, but lately have been trying to get by with just the Mustang I, using the headphone out. It's OK, but I still have trouble with it, possibly due to my headphones and not enough isolation or something. I'd really love a simple, straightforward setup, but I have trouble paring it down to what I actually need. My tonal preferences range somewhere from Vox to Marshall.

I should note that if there's something I really should buy that would help me a lot I'm definitely willing to do that, but barring the need for something I'd like to use what I have, since I've somehow ended up with a lot of stuff!

At present, I'm supposedly on the 'waiting list' at the new church I've been attending for a couple of months to serve as a second bassist. IOW, I'm not actively playing electric guitar, but that doesn't keep me from thinking about it.

I'm looking forward to getting to know people here. TDPRI is one of the nicer forums I've come across.

Welcome Eric71!

I've been down this route, at our satellite campus - needing to go DI to minimise stage volumes.

Before moving on - I'm trying to understand how with earphones on do you hear the rest of the band? We run in-ear-monitors at our central service but have a dedicated mixing board an operator.

Or do I presume the samson mixer is for your personal use?

My .02 -

Go with the ASAT Bluesboy. The neck bucker will add weight to clean tones, after years of going direct I found it was harder to get a rich clean tone than a big driving OD tone. Can't go wrong with a strong tele bridge PU, even if its a G&L :wink:

The Trademark 60 emulated XLR output (I seem to recall it has one) IMO has you best chance for consistent and quality direct tones. Layer in the Bad Monkey or Hotcake plus the DD6 and combine with channel switching/boost and that'll get you most of the way there.

Keep us posted with both elec and bass endeavours:)

Before moving on - I'm trying to understand how with earphones on do you hear the rest of the band? We run in-ear-monitors at our central service but have a dedicated mixing board an operator.
The way I've done it most recently is with Samson S-monitors that the church had. There were enough aux outs on the mixer to give every musician their own mix, so you got a house mix and your own DI'ed signal to mix to taste. Basically the same as in-ears from what I understand (never used the wireless units), just with some wires and no batteries.

Or do I presume the samson mixer is for your personal use?
That was more just part of the listing of everything in my guitar/music bin right now. I've only used it briefly as a mic preamp for another jam I was a part of for 6ish months, but I guess in a pinch it could work as a personal monitor. That's all the S-monitor really is: a dumbed-down mixer for one person.

after years of going direct I found it was harder to get a rich clean tone than a big driving OD tone. Can't go wrong with a strong tele bridge PU, even if its a G&L :wink:
You know, I agree with you. I've tried adding reverb and delay and other tricks to get cleans to come across right, because it really is tricky when you're plugging straight in.

My best shot at a tidy setup before was using the Sansamp as a clean amp, then just stacking dirt boxes as required, using the T21 delay as my always-on/body delay, and using the DD6 for more crazy delays. It worked okay, but I think I kind of lost touch with what I was trying to do and ended up having too much grit on the Sansamp, so it ended up being hard to get clean tones and/or anything softer.

I think one thing that will help me in the future (which you touched on) is just picking a guitar and going with it exclusively until I really have the DI rig well-characterized. Otherwise, it's just another variable to make my head spin.

Thanks very much for the input -- good advice.

Not sure about the Trademark 60, but my Trademark 10 required a load on the speaker output to make it silent. For a 10W, it was just one big resistor soldered to a 1/4" plug, but you might need something more substantial for the 60. Since you have the Sansamp GT2, I'd certainly try to give that a go. Maybe something like: tuner, BM, Rat, reverb, delay, Sansamp, DI.

Like tjalla (and another post of mine), I'd keep it real simple and not vary anything until you must. (+1 on Bluesboy)

That is a pile of gear. I never use that much stuff. It is a battle in most churches, amps verses no amps. You may want a headphone amp, use your direct box and run a line to your headphone amp. Trying cutting back to one box like the rat, and then start adding stuff as you decide you really need it. I can get by pretty well with just a distortion box, reverb, and chorus.

Use the bluesboy, put together a nice little board, and use an amp with a headphone out. If you're more rythym than anything, throw in the tuner, dd-6, rv-7, and maybe a boost or od for a little umph to your rythym parts. I don't understand as to why you want to be silent on stage. I used to crank my blues junior up and use my guitar volume to go between solos and rythym. I now run my jr to the sound board so I can turn down on stage, but be nice and loud through the mains. Just experiment with your gear, and see what works best for you. It's your tone, not the bands tone.

Use the bluesboy, put together a nice little board, and use an amp with a headphone out. If you're more rythym than anything, throw in the tuner, dd-6, rv-7, and maybe a boost or od for a little umph to your rythym parts. I don't understand as to why you want to be silent on stage. I used to crank my blues junior up and use my guitar volume to go between solos and rythym. I now run my jr to the sound board so I can turn down on stage, but be nice and loud through the mains. Just experiment with your gear, and see what works best for you. It's your tone, not the bands tone.
Well, I don't want to be silent, but the sound person usually wants that and it's better to have them as an ally than as an enemy.

That is a pile of gear. I never use that much stuff.
Yeah, I agree it is a lot of stuff and I know I don't need all of it. In the past, I tried putting together the 'perfect' pedalboard with all of the pedals I liked most, but the problem was that then I couldn't limit myself to only using what I needed and I got a little lost. That's why I'm trying to take a new approach.

You may want a headphone amp, use your direct box and run a line to your headphone amp.
Can you explain what you mean? I'm not sure I understand.

Trying cutting back to one box like the rat, and then start adding stuff as you decide you really need it. I can get by pretty well with just a distortion box, reverb, and chorus.
No delay. Hmm, interesting. I was thinking about something like still_fiddlin mentioned; that was my goal for a long time: DI with the Sansamp, using some reverb for ambient clean parts, delay for certain songs that need it, Rat when I need some dirt, and maybe OD for a lead boost. I'd like to maybe even keep the OD off and just use the guitar volume for that. I think you're right though: simplifying will help make the setup a little more digestible.

Would you use an amp when you just used distortion/verb/chorus, or did you use some sort of amp-in-a-box thing?

...No delay. Hmm, interesting. I was thinking about something like still_fiddlin mentioned; that was my goal for a long time: DI with the Sansamp, using some reverb for ambient clean parts, delay for certain songs that need it, Rat when I need some dirt, and maybe OD for a lead boost. I'd like to maybe even keep the OD off and just use the guitar volume for that. I think you're right though: simplifying will help make the setup a little more digestible. ...I have reverb on *all the time* in CCM. Not a lot, but it's always there. If I was dropping something from that chain (i.e., the one I suggested :)) it would probably be the OD, assuming you can get your Sansamp adjusted so you will get some dirt with just the volume on your guitar. And, I couldn't play without delay anymore. I'm over it...

On the Sansamp, try to use something in the British sound - I use my Trademark 10 (at the practice/warmup we have in the choir room, every week, before the service), and that's where I keep it. It gives you a wider range of possibilities than the Tweed or California sounds, at least on my amp. Then, save the Rat for a lead tone, but not a lot of boost - again, keep some headroom on the guitar volume, and ease into it if you feel the need. Pedals that cause big jumps in volume are hard on the sound guys, and you'll find yourself pushed down in the mix so they don't have to get surprised. Work on tonal qualities, and effects (less is more, until you really can hear otherwise), and let the sound guys work the levels.

The next problem is getting a good monitor that is accurate enough to let you play "by wire" and not feel disconnected. But, if you're already doing bass in that environment, you probably have a feel for how to make that work.

Good luck

I have reverb on *all the time* in CCM. Not a lot, but it's always there.
I agree. I've tried dropping the reverb out, but the place where I notice it is in arpeggiated cleans on the slower songs when I'm trying to add some background stuff. It just sounds too...simple or something.

On the Sansamp, try to use something in the British sound - I use my Trademark 10 (at the practice/warmup we have in the choir room, every week, before the service), and that's where I keep it. It gives you a wider range of possibilities than the Tweed or California sounds, at least on my amp.
Interesting. On the Sansamp, I feel like the British is way too distorted and has a less-than-great clean tone availability. I've emailed Tech 21 and they say they designed it that way, since most people just want the Marshall distortion. The best clean sound I've found so far is a clean Mesa tone with the gain almost all the way down and the bass up pretty far. I found it on a website that had a big collection of potential presets. I would ideally like to keep the Sansamp clean, just because otherwise I end up overusing gain a lot, but you have a good point. I might try that.

Then, save the Rat for a lead tone, but not a lot of boost - again, keep some headroom on the guitar volume, and ease into it if you feel the need. Pedals that cause big jumps in volume are hard on the sound guys, and you'll find yourself pushed down in the mix so they don't have to get surprised.
This is a very interesting point that I had not really thought about previously. I have not had great experiences with the sound people paying attention all of the time and I frequently feel like I'm buried, so I usually keep some volume in reserve if I need to bump it up at times for dynamic reasons. But I can definitely see where you're coming from, and it makes sense if I think about what I would do if I was running sound.

This is a very interesting point that I had not really thought about previously. I have not had great experiences with the sound people paying attention all of the time and I frequently feel like I'm buried, so I usually keep some volume in reserve if I need to bump it up at times for dynamic reasons. But I can definitely see where you're coming from, and it makes sense if I think about what I would do if I was running sound.

Yes a very good point. For notes to stand out try relying on eq placement eg more midrange and less bitey tops with a *bit* of volume boost. With an amp, esp a tube amp, goosing the signal with a vol boost adds compression and pleasant overdrive. When running direct you get ugly, ugly clipping and it's the quickest way to freak out a FOH chap esp one who isn't most experienced. Even worse is if they pull your channel fader down when what they in fact need to is bump your channel up while dropping the channel input gain.

Best is to give them a sound that they know they can count on (be that guy), rather than something that's potentially a headache (being THAT guy).

:)

Best is to give them a sound that they know they can count on (be that guy), rather than something that's potentially a headache (being THAT guy).

:)
Nicely stated!

Had my first experience with this yesterday...didn't like it. It's definitely easier for quieting the stage mix and the controlling overall mix to the audience, but... the sound coming out of the monitors ain't like what comes out of a good amp. I suppose better monitors would help. Secondly, getting the stomp boxes to sound good was a real pain. Since I'm old and old school, it was not much fun and a headache. I used a direct box for my acoustic and that seems ok, but monitors don't react to sublteties very well. I would agree that getting a decent clean tone is hard too.Anyway, we'll keep plugging away and see what happens.

Oh and one more thing, like a previous poster, I keep some volume in reserve as well. If I can't tweak it myself, I am not a happy camper

Had my first experience with this yesterday...didn't like it. It's definitely easier for quieting the stage mix and the controlling overall mix to the audience, but... the sound coming out of the monitors ain't like what comes out of a good amp. I suppose better monitors would help.
That's why I prefer headphones. The stage monitors, unless they're pretty good, don't work very well. I suppose I could also get an active monitor and keep it close to my ears for just monitoring purposes, but headphones seem just as easy to me.

I imagine part of it is what I'm used to hearing (i.e. close-to-the-amp output vs. what it actually sounds like to the audience/congregation), but it's still hard for me to get 'in the zone' if it sounds all scratchy and weak coming from the monitors.

Secondly, getting the stomp boxes to sound good was a real pain. Since I'm old and old school, it was not much fun and a headache. I used a direct box for my acoustic and that seems ok, but monitors don't react to sublteties very well. I would agree that getting a decent clean tone is hard too.Anyway, we'll keep plugging away and see what happens.

Oh and one more thing, like a previous poster, I keep some volume in reserve as well. If I can't tweak it myself, I am not a happy camper
It's a completely different game from just plugging into an amp and going to town. I find that some sort of EQ (e.g. the Sansamp in the past) has helped me tighten up the clean sounds and not make them as flubby as they can be through a flat system. I'm sweating some new headphones at some point in the future: either Audio-Technica ATH-M50 or Direct Sound EX-29 for some better monitoring in the future. I would use in-ears, but I just hate the feel of them and can never get them to work right.

These are the challenges of playing in worship services these days, I think, but as tjalla said, it better to be that guy than to be THAT guy.

BTW, what do any of you guys think of the Tech 21 character Liverpool or British versus either the old-school Sansamp GT2 like I have or some of the newer digital stuff like the Zoom G3 or Pod HD series?

...
BTW, what do any of you guys think of the Tech 21 character Liverpool or British versus either the old-school Sansamp GT2 like I have or some of the newer digital stuff like the Zoom G3 or Pod HD series?There have been postings here of folks using the new "Character Series" boxes, but I expect they are coming from using pedals+amp, and trying to get silent in the fastest way that retains an amp sound. I seriously doubt that they are a great leap forward in technology over the GT2, but I haven't tried one.

I checked by settings on the Trademark yesterday, and, I do use the "British" setting on "Clean" mode, with Drive at about 10 o'clock (that's for my LP - the pencil mark on that knob is about 1-2 for single coils, when I had 'em).

I use a POD HD now, but really switched because the DI from the Trademark wasn't working for the sound guy. (It wasn't the Trademark's problem, but I gave up having that discussion. Much easier to say, "But this is what Lincoln Brewster uses, so the problem is *not* with my equipment.") Not hugely different in what ends up in the mains, honestly, given time and tweaking, but now that I'm used to it, and have patches set up, I'd never go back. No bending over to twist a stomp box setting, or being surprised by having accidentally twisted a knob (foot brushed it while stomping something else), plus being able to use the HD to play along, and tweak patches during the week, so I *know* its going to work on Sunday, "priceless." I *know* it's not for everyone, but where I have to plug in and play, it's really the best option. (Not saying the POD HD is necessarily the best - just that kind of technology.)

P.S. I use IEMs (older Shure 300 series), but I got used to them when I used them during my motorcycling days.

There have been postings here of folks using the new "Character Series" boxes, but I expect they are coming from using pedals+amp, and trying to get silent in the fastest way that retains an amp sound. I seriously doubt that they are a great leap forward in technology over the GT2, but I haven't tried one.

I checked by settings on the Trademark yesterday, and, I do use the "British" setting on "Clean" mode, with Drive at about 10 o'clock (that's for my LP - the pencil mark on that knob is about 1-2 for single coils, when I had 'em).

I use a POD HD now, but really switched because the DI from the Trademark wasn't working for the sound guy. (It wasn't the Trademark's problem, but I gave up having that discussion. Much easier to say, "But this is what Lincoln Brewster uses, so the problem is *not* with my equipment.") Not hugely different in what ends up in the mains, honestly, given time and tweaking, but now that I'm used to it, and have patches set up, I'd never go back. No bending over to twist a stomp box setting, or being surprised by having accidentally twisted a knob (foot brushed it while stomping something else), plus being able to use the HD to play along, and tweak patches during the week, so I *know* its going to work on Sunday, "priceless." I *know* it's not for everyone, but where I have to plug in and play, it's really the best option. (Not saying the POD HD is necessarily the best - just that kind of technology.)

P.S. I use IEMs (older Shure 300 series), but I got used to them when I used them during my motorcycling days.
That's very valuable info. I was really sweating one of the character series pedals for awhile, but I think I'm coming back to earth now. I'll definitely check out the British at lower gain settings when I eventually unearth my rig from the storage unit. Long story.

BTW, that's pretty funny about your battle with the sound guy ("...this is what Lincoln Brewster uses..."). I can relate only too well.

i hated silent stage. i was always the obnoxious guy with his TS808 into a class A combo that was far too loud for anyone else on stage.

then i bought a Boss GT-10. i am completely converted to silent stage, i can here others and with decent monitor setup its great.


id say Bluesboy and Mustang.

btw guys, Lincoln brewster uses an AC30 on stage as his monitor. i used to use that one on the soundguy haha

I've used an Eleven Rack for couple of years now with Avioms only. I play for Travis Cottrell. It really shines with Strat/Tele lower output puppies. It responds like a tube amp does to the guitar volume control.
One important thing I do.....try to get a board mix or Aviom mix. Take it home and tweak your tones to fit like you want them in the mix. A great tone may sound totally different swallowed by a grand piano.

Best wishes to you guys, RKH

One important thing I do.....try to get a board mix or Aviom mix. Take it home and tweak your tones to fit like you want them in the mix. A great tone may sound totally different swallowed by a grand piano.

Best wishes to you guys, RKH
This is very important info. I've received recordings of ambient room mics and mixer outputs from the exact same performance, and they sound nothing alike. So getting an accurate representation of what's going to the board is key. I'm still largely undecided, but at this point I think I'll wait until I actually have an occasion to play on a worship team again.

I used the Tech 21 Blonde for a while, but I found the controls too interactive to get a consistent sound week to week, esp once I stacked pedals into it or if tweaking on the fly.

My no-brainer direct setup is my Edwards LP -> TIM -> DD20 -> Palmer PDI-09 stereo pair. I can cover the basics of a P&W set with this rig.

I used the Tech 21 Blonde for a while, but I found the controls too interactive to get a consistent sound week to week, esp once I stacked pedals into it or if tweaking on the fly.


Yeah, the Blonde's controls would be a pain if you were needing to readjust for venues or rig setups. When I got the Blonde, I spent some time at church dialing it it to sound like my '59 Bassman LTD (played clean), and I marked all of the settings on the pedal. If I make any changes, it's to the settings on the other pedals on my pedalboard, the Blonde's settings stay put. It's actually made things pretty consistent for me, and trouble-free.



My no-brainer direct setup is my Edwards LP -> TIM -> DD20 -> Palmer PDI-09 stereo pair. I can cover the basics of a P&W set with this rig.

I've never tried the Palmer DIs, but it would be tough to go wrong with that rig... I bet it sounds great!