Newb Jazz comping

So as some of you know I am a classical guitar major, who also plays a ton of big band swing (Freddie Green style), rock, and folk but Im trying to teach myself how to comp in a more pianistic style. Soloing will come next :P Any tips would be appreciated....

This is a SHORT clip of my comping on Wave by A.C. Jobim. Im sort of trying to use Ed Bickert-ish voicings (obviously not nearly as effectively but, hey, Im new)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nby6sGLhhWQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Bump.... Anybody?

Bump.... Anybody?

Sure, I'll give you my ignorant opinion. I was never more than an amateur player, but I have played with a couple of low grade jazz ensembles, and I played with the local college big band for four or five years. FWIW.

Comping style depends largely upon who you're accompanying. If you're a solo guitar behind a singer, that's one thing; if you're part of a trio or quartet behind a soloist or singer, that's another. If the other instruments includes a piano, you have to play differently than if there is no piano (use simpler voicings, maybe just guide tones).

What you were playing sounded stiff to me, and you were carrying too much of the melody. It's up to the soloist/singer to carry the melody, it's up to the bass player to establish the progression, the drummer supports the rhythm, and the guitarist fills in the harmonies in a way that doesn't interfere with the soloist. The accompaniment has to flow smoothly.

Suggestions for listening would be Ella's Great American Songbook series, or anything by Sinatra. Get Sonny Rollins' "The Bridge" and listen to how Jim Hall comps. Pat Metheny has recorded with some singers and is worth a listen. Diana Krall usually has a guitarist in her band, and in addition you get to hear how a good guitar player interacts with a piano. For Bossa, get the originals, from Brazil if you can manage it, and learn what those guys did in context.

Aebersold makes a music-minus-one playalong aimed at comping - see http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JAJAZZ&Product_Code=AJV&Category_Code=SINVOC

How you go forward, and what you study, depends on what you want to do.

Voice leading and arranging. One of my 'lightbulb" moments was hearing guitarist Mundell Lowe play with Sarah Vaughan on 'After Hours" Mundell was a great arranger - and he plays like that too...

Barry Galbraith's comping book is a good one for someone who can read notation. His voicings will definitely fit with what you are chasing there, and if you can get some of that chordal movement under your fingers it'll travel to anything else in the jazz repertoire.

http://shop.independentmusic.com.au/barry-galbraith-guitar-comping/

You'll need to work on feel and pulse - because what I heard there hasnt got enough momentum yet. The Galbraith book has some swinging chord phrases in it - so work on whole phrases rather than voicings.And listen to the great arrangers/orchestrators too, Nelson Riddle,Claus Ogerman Don Sebesky , Vince Mendoza , to name a few.

Thanks guys. I agree the timing needs work, but I don't have any idea where I could pick get a clave track. My metronome has one, but not the right one for this. I have that Galbraith book but in all honesty haven't had a ton of time to look at it because of school (Im in a classical guitar program at university - Im pretty busy with it LOL). So I was just going for as close movement possible with the voicings I know right now. I understand it was very rudimentary. I guess I will have to start looking at Barrys stuff after school (or on reading week hmmm.. ;) ) I think it has bass lines I can record first too, no?

As far as chord choice goes, are roots always out in this style? Im really looking to BE the piano player a la Ed Bickert so I don't have to worry about a piano mudding up my game... are their certain grips that are used more often than others? Common subs?

I started out as a classical guitar major then switched to a Jazz college for my last three years to get a BFA in jazz performance so I have an idea where you are coming from. Work on your ability to transcribe from recordings, you'll find your answers by trying to play the notes and rhythms to match what you hear. Two great albums of guitar comping with a bassist behind a singer are: "Julie Is Her Name" volumes 1 and 2. They will get you started on some great ideas like how to move an inner voice through a line of chords.

The Barry Galbraith comping book is a classic, I've worn through my first copy and bought a second one. Be aware that Barry says himself in his intro that the etudes he wrote for the book are busier than he would usually comp for any live situation, like any exercise book he was trying to provide information in as little space as he could. In a live situation he was a very tasteful and often minimalist comper. The point of the book is to gain chord phrases for your vocabulary which you have at your finger disposal to edit depending on the context you find yourself comping in.

There are not too many really hard and fast rules about comping, it is an "in the moment" thing so can change each time you play a song. One rule to live by with comping is to leave space for the melody instrument or soloist to shine, don't step all over them by playing their notes too much or leaving no silent spaces which let the music breathe. Learn what Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings and close voicings are and play them in all inversions, that will get your fingers used to a large percentage of the voicings jazz comping guitarists use. After those, try to learn some mixed fretted and open string chords, these are really great for letting chords ring and can add complexity which would sometimes not be available within a comfortable hand stretch without the open string notes, there are some great examples of this in the Galbraith book in the minor blues and "S Miles" which is based on the song "Nardis."
There are many books with chord comping examples in them, they do help, but transcribing by ear directly to the guitar with no manuscript involved should not be underestimated for its effectiveness, it's how many guitarists got their comping chops in the first place.

I tracked down this post (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-theory-technique/293193-jazz-dummies.html#post3605583) I wrote a while ago which may help you.

As far as chord choice goes, are roots always out in this style? Im really looking to BE the piano player a la Ed Bickert so I don't have to worry about a piano mudding up my game... are their certain grips that are used more often than others? Common subs?


Not always, but if there's a bass player, it's one of the first notes I consider dropping.

As for certain grips used more often, well, I think every player has their "pet" grips...one I really like that Ed liked a lot too (it's who I stole it from) is this:

x x 5 4 2 2

Which can be a A13, among other things.

I know nothing here, but I wonder if any of the guys who do know stuff have looked at Rick Severson's 99centguitarlessons.com. He has a lot of jazz comping stuff. I've downloaded some of his baby bebop vidoes, and found them well done (again, for someone who doesn't know anything; they were a little too outside for me, but I learned some stuff from them.)

Daniel, I would concentrate on working on a very simple groove and making it right. I would forget all the complicated harmonic ideas, take a major or a minor 2-5-1 and work on it. Write a repeatable, reasonably busy pattern and make it groove. Rhythm is more important than anything in comping and it seems like this is an area you need to work on a bit.

Actually, the best IMO would be to start with playing simple chords in simple patterns and getting this right. So in a bossa, I would start with full chords, playing rhythm like I would play while singing at the same time, with no other instruments. In swing, I would go 4-to-the-bar, until it grooves.

I play mostly traditional jazz, in a big-band and in a combo format, playing 4-to-the-bar chords usually. It is MUCH more difficult to make the 4-to-the-bar swing than most people think...

Good luck!

I tracked down this post I wrote a while ago which may help you.

Thanks Greg - I went looking for that one for the OP. There's also a great post somewhere by Octatonic on drop 2 voicings.

JT - just seen that voicing in the right hand of the piano chart at the beginning of Wyntons J-Mood - written as F7alt followed by F#m13 - with of course different accidentals for each one...

Thanks for the input everyone! I agree my timing is lacking - especially in that video - but believe me I am much better with at least a backing track or something to "talk" with. I wish I could find some good jam tracks with bass and melody - but no harmony. I feel like that'd help a LOT. Its just easier for me to lock in with a drums because they "say" a lot more than a metronome. I feel like I almost have to charleston with a metronome - I guess Im just not using it properly in a jazz context? Ive always used one for classical stuff but it seems really stiff/motionless/dead for jazz. The cymbals play such an important role in determining where you comp - even for swing stuff.

I checked out the other linked-to post and I know all those chords inside and out. I understand all the chord formulas, drop 2, drop 3 and other voicing systems... and have played a TON of swing tunes and played in a big band for a long time - thats the Freddie Green stuff I want to get away from so I can form something like bass, drums, guitar, sax/voice. I want to be the piano - Basically I want to cop as much of Ed Bickert's style as possible - but his stuff seems really daunting to lift (Ive tried lifting Wave - even the first phrase is a bit over my head. I get what he's doing (em6/11 (em13?) > G#13b5/B#) but it took me 10 mins just to lift that properly. This is frustrating to me considering I can lift rock, blues, folk, funk stuff almost instantly. I guess my best step is to look into the Galbraith book and then move on from there?

Daniel, you will of course do whatever you feel right for you and I hope you have fun with that. Just bear in mind one thing - if what you play does not swing (or groove or bossa or whatever verb you use) when you play it alone, covering it with a band won't help much. Yes, the band will help you keep the rhythm and tempo. But groove is not the same, and you are supposed to be the time-keeper as well. One day (like me once) you might just say to yourself: "I lost so much time and now need to go back to the basics". Just a word of caution...

Metronome set on 2 and 4 should help with the swing.

Thanks for the input everyone! I agree my timing is lacking - especially in that video - but believe me I am much better with at least a backing track or something to "talk" with. I wish I could find some good jam tracks with bass and melody - but no harmony. I feel like that'd help a LOT. Its just easier for me to lock in with a drums because they "say" a lot more than a metronome. I feel like I almost have to charleston with a metronome - I guess Im just not using it properly in a jazz context? Ive always used one for classical stuff but it seems really stiff/motionless/dead for jazz. The cymbals play such an important role in determining where you comp - even for swing stuff.

I checked out the other linked-to post and I know all those chords inside and out. I understand all the chord formulas, drop 2, drop 3 and other voicing systems... and have played a TON of swing tunes and played in a big band for a long time - thats the Freddie Green stuff I want to get away from so I can form something like bass, drums, guitar, sax/voice. I want to be the piano - Basically I want to cop as much of Ed Bickert's style as possible - but his stuff seems really daunting to lift (Ive tried lifting Wave - even the first phrase is a bit over my head. I get what he's doing (em6/11 (em13?) > G#13b5/B#) but it took me 10 mins just to lift that properly. This is frustrating to me considering I can lift rock, blues, folk, funk stuff almost instantly. I guess my best step is to look into the Galbraith book and then move on from there?


Have you ever tried Band in a Box?
http://www.pgmusic.com/

There is something to be said for concentrating on one style until you really nail it. Are you taking a double major? If your major is Classical guitar studies, your learning will be much more accelerated if you buckle down on that alone. Classical guitar is a deep subject, if you truly want to aim for the top of that field you may want to cut down on the distractions of trying to learn another equally as deep subject like jazz guitar. Ed Bickert was so great because he spent thousands of hours rehearsing, listening deeply to, and woodshedding jazz. It's not snobbery that there is not much cross-over between the two styles, the best players in each style dove into the learning process and focused on their style of music. Andres Segovia didn't record a version of Giant Steps, Pat Martino isn't held up as an example of Bach Fugue interpreters. Specializing is what kept their career progression focused.

Agreed - I do definitely have a lot of my time tied up with classical guitar - but I really see classical guitar (not classical music in general however...) as more of a "finger gym" if you will. I look at it like a martial artist and take a very similar approach to learning. Its just a bummer that you don't get to play with others very often on the classical guitar - its just not loud enough. I didn't have time to play in a gigging rock band so I took up big band jazz (having learnt the Django type stuff before even touching classical) and started chunk-ity-chunking away just to be able to play in a group setting - but its so limited. I want to go back to a small group setting.

And no, I haven't tried BiaB. That being said - I checked out prices for it and Im not sure that I can just drop like $400 on a program ATM.

For the record - after Im done with my program Ill probably be finished with the classical guitar in general. Im sure Ill always play a bit and keep some stuff under my nails - but after studying seriously for 8 years, getting a degree form Uni. and a diloma in it (ARCT from RCM), Im kinda burnt out - not to mention the repertoire is painfully small and Ive played through a lot in it. I really - really want to focus fully on jazz after that - but Im sure getting my feet wet now wouldn't hurt any.

daniel,

There are different packages for BIAB. You can get the basic for around $100, I believe. It a a great practice tool for what you are doing. You can set up that bossa nova drum pattern and chord changes for the tune in literally just a few minutes.

If you have an iPhone there is a "Real Book" app which is very affordable, you can download changes from their online discussion board, use songs that come with the app or input your own. It is a playalong app with tempo and style functions, I recommend it to any of my students with iPhones or iPads. I am pretty sure there is a competitive app available for android based phones too.
Sounds great to play with through an external speaker plugged into the headphone jack.

Yep I can vouch for the IReal Book although I did hear that an update had deleted some of the tunes because of copyright?

The program is designed by great musicians - (I think Lionel Loueke's bass player is the main guy behind it) - anyway - good practice tool..and cheap!

I do have the IRealBook. They did cancel pretty much ALL the tunes as far as I can find. Im going to try and find that version of BiaB right now actually. Thanks guys.

By the way- call me Dan. All this Daniel talk makes me feel like Im talking to my Oma!!

I do have the IRealBook. They did cancel pretty much ALL the tunes as far as I can find. Im going to try and find that version of BiaB right now actually. Thanks guys.

Which you can download direct from their forum as soon as you load the program. iRealb is great.

Dan,
There is a French jazz guitarist named Sylain Luc who plays nylon string acoustic with a trio on his album "Trio Sud," and on another fantastic album with Bireli Lagrene as a duet. If you have spent all this time working on nylon string tone production you might like amplifying your guitar with a microphone or internal pickup with a preamp to warm the signal up. Earl Klugh plays a Ramirez for his fingerstyle jazz, both solo and with a trio. Listen to the original Bossa Nova players like Joao Gilberto and they are almost all nylon string players even with large groups, it just took a microphone to keep the mix right. As you know the nylon string is capable of some tonal variations which are not possible on steel strings, keep it in your bag of tricks!:cool:

Oh I wouldnt ever give up on the guitars themselves - I agree the playability is through the roof. Just the music more or less, gets very limiting, and some of it really isn't very engaging.