LA Club Owner

Great little blurb re: the often frustrating pursuit of club gigs. Goes for lots of places - not just LA...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/78468650/La-Club-Owners

Good stuff.

Jonny

While I completely agree with the article, the sentiment, the logic, etc ...
You won't get a lot of love here at the tdpri with this.
Here's an example of something similar I posted a month ago:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/band-wagon/306672-craigslist-ad-awesome-response.html

Here's an example of something similar I posted a month ago:
I missed that one - its fantastic - and the responses are probably 50/50?

Its important to acknowledge that that response is full of humour - albeit a dark and experiential humour - and of course some of those TDPRI replies highlight that even some of the people who play music, still dont get the idea that musicians and club owners are involved in a business together. Are we for equality of investment in business? - or do we like the idea of people working for nothing?

As far as getting gigs go - the freebies and calling cards are usually CD's right? . Apart from the years of hard work , energy and the investment in both equipping and educating oneself, there is the expense of rehearsing, recording, and producing recordings. If a club owner wants a live preview , the good ones (that I know of) come and hear you at another gig (which you are getting paid for)...just as if I wanted a sample of someones great food or wine - I'd visit the restaurant in question.

Perhaps the musician's reply is - dare I say it - a bit close to the bone?

Perhaps the musician's reply is - dare I say it - a bit close to the bone?

Of course. A mirror view is sometimes the most difficult to look into.

While I completely agree with the article, the sentiment, the logic, etc ...
You won't get a lot of love here at the tdpri with this.
Here's an example of something similar I posted a month ago:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/band-wagon/306672-craigslist-ad-awesome-response.html

Being as you and I were in different boats, I will say I actually liked this article. I thought it was a good fusion of both points of view--the one saying musicians falling in line with low pay and added responsibility make it harder on everyone, but also the one that says that spending the money to hire good acts is ultimately in bar owner's best interest. I thought he was spot on.

In general out here the bars and restaurants that pay and hire 'talent' have stayed in business ... some for 30 years +.
The one's that cheap out either fold or change hands every two or three years.

I find it amusing how many struggling musicians are so certain that they are in a position to tell bar owners how they need to run their businesses.

If your band really boosts alcohol sales, you don't need to beg club owners to pay you better and to spend money on promoting your shows. Just sign on with one of the clubs that pays and promotes well, and I'm sure they'll be thrilled to book you.

If the only places you can get booked are clubs who are not interested in paying anything and won't spend a dime on promoting it, maybe that should tell you something about what your prospects for being a professional entertainer actually are. At least so far.

Musicians used to have an expression called "paying your dues." Just because you spent a few years learning the guitar and a few months assembling & preparing a band doesn't mean anybody owes you anything. Odds are, you're going to have to play ****ty gigs for pathetic payouts for a long time until you build enough of a following that the top-tier clubs are going to have any interest in you whatsoever. Most bands break up long before they reach that point, because everybody wants everything handed to them right away.

Since I still find this all rather humorous I'll relate a story ...

One of the bands I work with has the honor of selling the most alcohol * EVER * in one night in the entire time that the Queen Mary's been moored in Long Beach harbor (since 1967, the 'observation bar'). I have no problem asking for money to play music and I completely understand that in reality, I'm just an alcohol salesman ... and apparently a damn good one at that.
*We play 90% originals by the way - go figure(?).

In my world paying dues may mean working cheap and long hours for awhile but not free and forever.

I find it amusing how many struggling musicians are so certain that they are in a position to tell bar owners how they need to run their businesses.

In general out here the bars and restaurants that pay and hire 'talent' have stayed in business ... some for 30 years +.
The one's that cheap out either fold or change hands every two or three years.

I love replying with someone else's reply -:mrgreen:

Anyway I've done enough gigs where the huge bartake made no difference to what the band got paid - fair enough, thats the deal. I also work for people who will always pay you regardless of what the take is - thats the deal too.

But if someone chooses to work for nothing - you have to wonder who and what they are serving...not themselves thats for sure...

There was a bar in Pasadena (suburb of LA, as in the 'little old lady from ...') where the owner would give you a guarantee and when the bar did over a certain amount, he'd give you some more. He ran that place for probably 12 to 15 years, sold it for a killing and moved to Hawaii. The first new owners decided they didn't like his business model - they lost the place in less than 18 months. It's changed hands continually since then.

There was a bar in Pasadena (suburb of LA, as in the 'little old lady from ...') where the owner would give you a guarantee and when the bar did over a certain amount, he'd give you some more.

Yep the article is definitely not aimed at guys like that.. Over here, the poker machines have ripped the heart out of the live music scene in Melbourne and Sydney - as it was in the 90's anyway, and the venues have to contend with stupid and indiscriminate licensing laws now - and the Urban crawl of residential housing back into the inner suburbs has seen noise limits close places down too. So I value the club owners who can develop a culture around their live music in that environment - and in turn they value the bands and artists who can help keep that culture going. Its a symbiosis - and when it becomes exploitative - from either side, it usually wrecks the culture and the gig.

I'm coming out of retirement. After some decades of doing other things, I bought a Tele and modded it and got some nice gear. I live in L.A., but have never gigged there. What I do best is jazz fusion, so I found some like minded players and I'm I putting together a trio, with the option of adding other instruments. We're doing material by Mike Stern, Oz Noy, Chick Corea. So my question for you is, first, have you gigged in L.A., and second, do I have an ice cube's chance in hell of making any money doing this?

So my question for you is, first, have you gigged in L.A., and second, do I have an ice cube's chance in hell of making any money doing this?

You better ask Klasaine - my experience has been sans green card.....:mrgreen:

I'm I putting together a trio, with the option of adding other instruments. We're doing material by Mike Stern, Oz Noy, Chick Corea. So my question for you is, first, have you gigged in L.A., and second, do I have an ice cube's chance in hell of making any money doing this?

All I can say is this ...
Your competition is FIERCE! Los Angeles is 'fusion city'. Especially fusion guitar.
Scott Henderson, Mike Landau, Robben Ford, Carl Verheyen, The Yellow Jackets, the Crusaders, Four Play, Lee Ritenour, Allen Hinds, Allan Holdsworth, John Zeigler, all the Leno and Conan band guys, etc., etc. They all play (as most live) here regularly.
The 'main' fusion venues (that pay) will be the Baked Potato and Cafe Cordial. 3 bills a night for the band. Your audience for fusion will be only guitar players and possibly their girlfriends. Conversely if you can do more of the 'groove/chill-out' thing there's a bunch of bars and restaurants that hire that. Look in the L.A. Weekly and start going to the places you think might be cool for your band. DnTn, Little Tokyo, Pasadena are becoming places to 'go' at night.

.

In my world paying dues may mean working cheap and long hours for awhile but not free and forever.

Yeah that was my 20's.

http://sagia.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/snapshot20090103021138.jpg

All I can say is this ...
Your competition is FIERCE! Los Angeles is 'fusion city'. Especially fusion guitar.
Scott Henderson, Mike Landau, Robben Ford, Carl Verheyen, The Yellow Jackets, the Crusaders, Four Play, Lee Ritenour, Allen Hinds, Allan Holdsworth, John Zeigler, all the Leno and Conan band guys, etc., etc. They all play (as most live) here regularly. Well, those are some great players, although aside from Robben Ford, I believe I'm the only one who plays a Tele, which ought to count for something.


The 'main' fusion venues (that pay) will be the Baked Potato and Cafe Cordial. 3 bills a night for the band. Your audience for fusion will be only guitar players and possibly their girlfriends. Conversely if you can do more of the 'groove/chill-out' thing there's a bunch of bars and restaurants that hire that. By 'groove/chill-out' do you mean... "smooth jazz"? Like 94.7 "the Wave"? :twisted:

No. More of a jazzier version of electronica.
Like this ... http://www.myspace.com/beyondorangemusic
Or this ... http://soundcloud.com/klasaine/ken-lasaine-for-others-03-pork
The 'smooth' 'Wave' stuff is still fairly popular though it's always mixed with standard R&B and funk.
The faux Flamenco thing is also still in demand.
Gypsy jazz seems to be gigable.
Anything that blends varying ethnicities into unrecognizable and eviscerated pablum is also usually good for a few bucks.

The Tele does count for a little ... at least with me.
There's a bunch of bars and restaurants that have music.
In Little Tokyo there's a (newer) place called the 'Blue Whale' (in the Weller Court shops mall) that focuses on improvised and modern music. Anything from totally 'free' jazz to modern chamber music through fusion and even 'straight-ahead'. Check it out.

Anything that blends varying ethnicities into unrecognizable and eviscerated pablum

Oh Im stealing that! :mrgreen:

Lol!
You know ... a nylon string guitarist butchering a phrygian scale on the worst sounding solidbody electro/nylon string you ever heard while a guy that 'owns' percussion instruments as well as a colorful matching vest/hat combo beats on a tourist grade tabla that he got at the 'Cost Plus World Market', complete with samba whistle around his neck as the stunningly beautiful cellist - who couldn't play 'Camptown Races' in tune if her life depended on it - swoons and weaves wonderfully to a groove that actually ISN'T happening in the music being played because the soprano sax guy (also in matching vest and hat) is destroying the melody to 'Footprints'.

and making squillions - of course...lol

No. More of a jazzier version of electronica.
Anything that blends varying ethnicities into unrecognizable and eviscerated pablum is also usually good for a few bucks. Time to feed the lounge lizards.

Yeah that was my 20's.

http://sagia.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/snapshot20090103021138.jpg

What fezz said.

Don't forget that if you're playing JUST for the door, you're playing for free as far as the venue is concerned, because you don't cost THEM anything. That means you have no value to them. To enhance the rep of you and/or your band, make sure you are perceived as having value by having a price.

We play for a guarantee, period. We have costs to cover just like they do. If the venue wants to run a cover to offset our fee, that's fine. They're welcome to all of it

The 'smooth' 'Wave' stuff is still fairly popular though it's always mixed with standard R&B and funk.
The faux Flamenco thing is also still in demand.
Gypsy jazz seems to be gigable.
Anything that blends varying ethnicities into unrecognizable and eviscerated pablum is also usually good for a few bucks. Pablum is not my forte. What if the fusion material were blended in with a substantial amount of blues, sort of like Robben Ford's groups? There do seem to be numerous clubs that book blues bands. Plus, I like playing blues, and as an old guy, I don't feel out of place playing it -- it's more or less a tradition for old guys to play it.

Yeah man, that works but as mentioned in my initial 'serious' post you're in competition with the some of the best and most visible in the business out here. So you're in good company IMO. They all mix the blues with the fusion. As I alluded too ... that's kinda the L.A. thing.

Hows the trad. (Dixieland) and mainstream jazz scene in L.A. these days? Do you do any of those gigs Ken?

Of course. A mirror view is sometimes the most difficult to look into.

well, yeah, it frequently makes an ass look even bigger!:mrgreen::mrgreen:

@ Randy - I once got a fortune (in a cookie) that read, "Toreador pants are something that make your feet look big too".

@Erik8 - As for 'trad' and dixieland - there's some. The dixie thing is actually very popular still for society gigs. In bars it's more the Gypsy Jazz/Hot Club thing.

Too many bands, too few venues.
Supply and demand.
Some will make money, most will have to play for free.
All the b****ing and finger-pointing in the world won't change it.

Since I still find this all rather humorous I'll relate a story ...

One of the bands I work with has the honor of selling the most alcohol * EVER * in one night in the entire time that the Queen Mary's been moored in Long Beach harbor (since 1967, the 'observation bar'). I have no problem asking for money to play music and I completely understand that in reality, I'm just an alcohol salesman ... and apparently a damn good one at that.
*We play 90% originals by the way - go figure(?).

In my world paying dues may mean working cheap and long hours for awhile but not free and forever.

Was that at the Scottish Festival? I may have been there that night. But I've been to a few crowded and liquid parties in that bar during Scottish Fest.

Yes it was Paul.
It may have been the year before though because I remember we had a little back and forth about it on the forum here. You were playing during the day during the actual festival and we played at night (thurs/fri/sat). So it 'may' have been the 2nd biggest weekend they ever had.
On any given weekend night the Queen Mary is pretty big party but that particular weekend was an absolute, full bore, rampaging, brawl. They actually ran out of liquor.

These's a local place that regularly paid in the thousands for regional favorites. They've been changing hands like the second hand on the clock in the garage. Recently they talked to me about playing there. Half the door. The guys was so excited. "if you can bring in a hundred people at $5 a head, that's $250 for you guys!" Yeah, now yer talkin' the big bucks buddy.

A regular line I use since starting a new band 8 months ago: I can't fix your business.