Professionals making a living a sideman.

Or woman :cool:

I've maintained a 12year gig stint with no day job (since leaving university) and count each gig as a blessing and privilege. Well, most times :wink:

A decent chunk of my gigs is solo acoustic which definitely helps make ends meet - I'm raising a young family and wifey only works school holidays.

However I'm curious how many here pay the bills and earn their living as a sideperson ie without the 'luxury' of better paying solo gigs, you're always relying on someone to call you. This especially applies to bassists/drummers.

If you have tips, experiences and anecdotes as to what makes things viable for you I'd love to hear about it.

Trev

I did for 25 years. I've been clean for the last 12 though.

It's not always easy.
Since the economy turned to strunz here in '08 I've lost a few accounts so to speak but I still seem to be able to make it. My wife works too. We both average about the same yearly take.

Besides actually working for others, I have a trio. I can augment that trio depending on the situation - vox, keys, woodwind, etc. Most of the bass players and drummers that I know out here do the same thing. L.A. also still has a fairly vibrant 'industry'. There's still session work and there's still 'high society' events to play, civic stuff, etc.

As for getting and keeping work ... you need to make yourself indispensable to said singer/songwriter/composer/whatever. And, even though I may not always display it here, one needs to be very amenable and positive with a good sense of humor. Of course reliability and good gear is a must.

Not only knowing but honestly 'liking' many different styles is pretty much a given IMO. I emphasize liking because if you don't dig it you won't be convincing. The artist hiring you may not necessarily be able to put their finger on it but they won't like you and you'll get let go. There are probably exceptions to this but I've never met one - ?

And, even though I may not always display it here, you need to be very amenable and positive with a good sense of humor.



Ha, same here. I like people and they like me. Just not here very often.

In real life I'm known as one who doesn't talk smack ... and seemingly appreciated for that. Even here, no one can ever say I'm rude or condescending.

In real life I'm known as one who doesn't talk smack ... and seemingly appreciated for that. Even here, no one can ever say I'm rude or condescending.

Always helpful and appreciated

In real life I'm known as one who doesn't talk smack ... and seemingly appreciated for that. Even here, no one can ever say I'm rude or condescending.

No problems for you there Trev!!

In real life I'm known as one who doesn't talk smack ... and seemingly appreciated for that. Even here, no one can ever say I'm rude or condescending.


I could say that, but I'd be Lying. :)

Cheers

No problems for you there Trev!!

bugger off. who asked you Capel.

:mrgreen:

jokes... jokes

What klasaine said about diggin' a wide range of repertoire... I guess that's where I come a bit unstuck. I've done a few one-off fill ins without getting the call back, despite me learning the songs to the best of my ability, but just not really my bag. Do you find ways to liking it - so that you can get more work - or is it a case of having a wide taste to begin with that will allow you to get more calls?

I'd been recently thinking - I get the chance to call on some great players to do my gigs, since I'm doing the booking, negotiating and organising. But would I hire myself as a sideman... I realise that this might not always be the case.

Hell, we all sometimes don't get the call back. And god knows what the real reason may be - ? But to the more esoteric aspect of your query ...
Me personally, I was very fortunate to be brought up in a house with a lot of music - mostly jazz, classical and band music. I had a very close uncle who was a John Denver freak, one of my best friends dad was heavy into Cash and Haggard and the kids in my hood were into everything rock and roll. I got all this at the same time and didn't really classify any of it - I was too young. I think because of that 'possibly' unique upbringing I can find something to like about almost any style of music. Once I find even just one tiny element to dig on, I try to find that element/thread in all of it. Sometimes I can't and I turn that stuff down (unless the money is sick ... and then that gets me into it).

Knowing that you might not be the right guy for the gig is a pretty heavy thing to realize and admit to ... and I have huge amount of respect for you Trev for even just saying that. Recently I lost a semi-permanent gig because I sent a sub who smoked me. Cest la vie, he's better on the gig than I am. Music first baby!

Define "living".
It was easier to live off the money I earned as a sideman 25 or so years ago.
I'm grossly underemployed again, and I recently quit my twice a week regular gig.
It was not financially wise, but after my second 8 year stretch doing that gig, it was time.
I'm hanging in, but strongly considering re-locating.
Austin is a musicians paradise, IF you are willing to work very cheap, very often.
I actually am not complaining, it's been a great, long run.
Doubling, in my case, on guitar and bass helps, singing helps, cooperating helps.
Onward and upward!

I think because of that 'possibly' unique upbringing I can find something to like about almost any style of music. Once I find even just one tiny element to dig on, I try to find that element/thread in all of it. Sometimes I can't and I turn that stuff down (unless the money is sick ... and then that gets me into it).

Yes, the $ helps when I'm having to learn "No Diggidy" for a club cover band. While I don't go out of my way to be a snob however, there's far less in 90s onwards that motivates me to learn (unless its James Taylor's newer catalogue :mrgreen:)

Knowing that you might not be the right guy for the gig is a pretty heavy thing to realize and admit to ... and I have huge amount of respect for you Trev for even just saying that. Recently I lost a semi-permanent gig because I sent a sub who smoked me. Cest la vie, he's better on the gig than I am. Music first baby!

:cool:

I'd always taken pride in saying "the best man for the gig" until that exact scenario happened to me too :lol: But he's thankful for the gig and has since recommended me to his booking agency - so that works out ok.

I do try and make myself 'indispensable' or at least be a super-sub coming off the bench - but its hard when its obvious a certain repertoire or style just isn't in your bloodstream. I've not had much success really nailing a gig when I'm not feeling it. Which then leaves me feeling like I've short changed the band.

As a frontman 99% and being able to choose my rep and do things on my terms, how does one professionally take on sideman gigs, keep them going and keep your own motivation (and sanity!) in the long haul. That line between "yes, I can do it" vs "thanks for asking, but I'll pass on that gig"

I don't know how it works 'down under' but out here a contractor (the guy who puts the band together and takes care of all the details) makes the same as the highest paid player and double if he or she also plays. In my experience sending the right guy is just as 'impressive' as playing well. And if it pays the same then ...
I get called quite a bit to recommend players. I don't do it 'officially' (yet - ?), but it just makes me look better in the eyes of the leader/composer who asks ... and I stay on their radar.

out here a contractor [snip] makes the same as the highest paid player and double if he or she also plays.

I guess I've never asked what other bandleaders (we don't call em contractors, but that does make sense) are charging for organising gigs. But I'm pretty sure its not double. Either its different here in Oz... or I've been short changing myself!

Only extra I make over my bandmates is PA hire - usually $50-$150 depending on size of PA needed.

The more I think about it, being an in-demand sideman is a skillset in itself and has as much to do with personality and attitude as it does musical ability. In retrospect there's a few gigs I should have said 'no' to - you don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

I've never asked what other bandleaders (we don't call em contractors, but that does make sense) are charging for organising gigs.

The 'double' pay doesn't count for club gigs.
Only what we on the west coast call 'casuals' - society gigs, private parties, events and shows. Also for booking recording sessions, etc. (hiring the players, dealing with the union, even hiring the studio) - gigs where there's actual extra work involved in order for it to succeed.

Thanks for the insight, Ken. Good to know how things are done elsewhere :cool:

I definitely didn't get the "frontman gene" (I've tried it) - I'm a sideman to the core! Teaching and my regular duo work represent a big chunk of my income, but sub/pickup gig/sideman work has to be there as well if I'm gonna pay my bills.

I guess I was blessed/cursed? with eclectic tastes in music very early on. Over the years I've worked Top 40/house band, pop and rock, blues, country, Americana, cajun/zydeco, funk, jazz/bebop/swing, experimental/ambient, all original music acts, instrumental power trio, and lots of other stuff. So for me, there's lots to like. That said, I'm fairly picky/discerning about what I don't like as well. If it's a good paying one-off or occasional thing, I don't have to be 100% in love with the material to go do it and smile about it. But I know me - it's tough for me to take on a regular ongoing thing if I don't dig the tunes.

Tjalla, I can tell from your posts that you're an easy, good natured fella, so I'm probably preaching to the choir here (as well as on some of my other points as well, likely) - but like Ken said, you want to be just that. There are plenty of highly qualified musicians out there that aren't prima donnas - and these guys are gonna get the call.

Because I'm recently single (one income) and I earn my living totally as an independent contractor musician, I'm afraid I have to be a bit of a money mercenary. I love full band work, so I do some because it's good for the soul. However, I can't go out for 60 bucks on primetime Saturday night very often if I want to eat. Therefore, I actively seek out duo (or trio) work that pays $100 or more (and usually comped dinner and/or drinks) for the job. There's more places to work, less overhead, etc. I've worked really hard at being a guy that a solo act can call up to add nice support and textures with a minimum of fuss.

It's the oldest cliche in the book, but - serve the song; taste is king! A common complaint I've heard from leaders regarding sidemen they've used is that, while the players are gifted, they simply overplay. There's usually going to be opportunities to burn down the barn and play extended solos and all that, depending on the material of course - but as a sideman, my job is to make somebody else sound like a million bucks if I can. Clever parts, dynamics, good listening, interesting textures and tasty fills (that fall where they're supposed to) are things that leaders look for.

Anything you can bring to the table that gives you an edge is always going to be a big plus. As brookdalebill said, doubling on other instruments and vocals is certainly something leaders keep in mind. There's one band that I'm one of four subs for the "lead guitar" position. All the other guys are cool people with great taste and chops. Sometimes I get the call because I can also double on mandolin, banjo, lap steel, or supply additional textures such as high string or baritone guitar, electric sitar. Or play bass for the whole night. Singing harmonies on the fly is something I've worked on since I was a little kid, and if it doesn't suck, leaders remember that. On the flip side, I don't necessarily blend well with every vocalist, so knowing when to be careful is better than singing just because you can.

For every artist/act I work with, I keep a dedicated spiral bound notebook with their name written in Sharpie on front. This contains contact info, maybe even their wife and kids' names, charts for tunes, playlists, notes on tunes (this song wants slide fills or Travis picking, etc.), anything in particular I do that the leader especially digs (this guy likes my fake Wes Montgomery thumb octaves or my more chordal sounding fills or whatever). I keep the notebooks in my car so I can easily refer to them whenever I'm around the musician(s).

"Singer/songwriter syndrome". I have vast respect for musicians of this variety, but let's face it - there's quite a few that move capo around and couldn't tell you what key they're in to save their life. Although I do occasionally follow someone around with a capo, it's not always the right call texture-wise, or maybe a non-guitar instrument is being used. I learned pretty early on that I needed to get quick with key transposing and "the numbers" and such if I was going to hire myself out for pickup work and not fall apart.

Time is money, so I have to assess the amount of personal prep I need to put forth in order to do justice to the job at hand vs. my financial take. I've done gazillions of rehearsals and have nothing against them. But because I split my time between two towns a hundred miles apart, this isn't always logistically possible. I know a lot of tunes and am fairly adept at "hand watching", so lots of jobs are like falling off a log. For material that's more involved/complex/demanding, whoever's looking at hiring me needs to be at least a little bit organized/helpful when it comes to charts or recordings and such. If there's a lot of projects on my plate, I can't put all my eggs in one basket and do all the scratching and digging around, regardless of how cool the material is, as there's simply not time.

Different towns and regions have cliques and such. I'm fortunate in that there's a real sense of musical community within the circuit I work. Sure, there's some healthy competition between players, but it's more of an "apples and oranges" thing than it is cuthroat and dog-eat-dog. Every town's not like that. Lots of networking between my musician friends; gigs come up that someone's already booked for, or they're not the right guy/gal for the job, so the phone rings. Whenever I'm not working and want to go out, I go support acts that contain friends whenever I can. Whenever I'm on the bill with other acts, I like to meet the other musicians. You never know when paths will cross again, and I've gotten referrals through such. Same goes for venue operators/owners, promoters, etc. I'm careful not to overtly "spam", but business cards go everywhere I go, so potential contacts don't get lost or overlooked.

I'm definitely not a "jobber". If I accept a bar gig for a hundred bucks, that's the job I'm going to go do, even if a three hundred dollar job comes up after the fact, tempting as it might be. When it comes to integrity (or not!), word gets around. It's important to me to do what I said I was going to do and not hang somebody out to dry. This can pay off for future engagements.

Gear is of course a factor, and sometimes it's goofy little things that can save you in a pinch, like maybe a splitter cable. Passive and active DI's, my tiny little solid state 100 watt Cub amp with a line out, a toolbox containing every whatnot I'll ever need - stuff like that always goes with me.

Thanks for that post Tim.

Good to have it out 'on paper' since there's alot of what goes on that *seems* intangible to the bandleader but is deliberate and considered from the sideman's position. eg "oh Tim, yea I'll call him - he's great to work with, seems to know my rep well and the gig always goes well when he's on. Hope he's available." *picks up phone*

I'd never have thought about a dedicated notebook for each artist/act - and I have a shocking memory for certain things like wife/kids names etc - so that's a great idea.

I'm trying to better draw distinctions between my frontman/sideman mentality, mainly so I can do more of the latter in 2012... just need a bit of a change and thinking in a different light can only add to my ability to continue working in the long-run.

I do the 'notebook' thing too.
Some leaders/artists I only work with maybe once every two years but they're always impressed that I kept a little notebook or folder with their stuff in it. Which also makes it so we only have to rehearse once - or not at all. I have one of those tonight actually, a rehearsal for someone I gig with literally once a year.

Yeah, the notebooks really come in handy.

This subject is close to my heart, so keep us posted. On a slight tangent, I recently saw the film Crazy about Hank Garland, which I enjoyed immensely. Seems like most "music movies" are usually about vocalists and "frontpeoples" (aside from stuff like biopics on jazz artists such as Charlie Parker and Dexter Gordon - very cool films) - so I found it refreshing to see this film based specifically on the perspective and plight of the venerable sideman.

I find that as long you're freelancing and willing to play pretty much any type of music, you can keep busy.

- Jagg

I keep a notebook also, but it's just charts with notes written on them. I never have minded learning material for a stand in gig, within reason. Here's what I mean by that:

Over the Christmas holidays, I got a call to stand in with a band for a $150 club gig. I told the guy that I was not up on the current country stuff so much, but I would learn some tunes if we could fill in the rest with throw downs (Haggard, Strait, etc) He was good with that and said he'd get the material to me ASAP. The gig was about 10 days off and I had to keep asking for the material, because I wouldn't have much time over Christmas weekend. About 4 days later, I get the set list of 45 tunes and I know 2 of them. I could learn 43 tunes in less than a week, but it's a pretty big chore. I also happened to talk to a bass player that played with these guys for one gig, and they gave him crap about using charts because they didn't like they way it looked on stage. So even if I charted out 43 tunes and could play them (signature licks, improv the rest), there is no way I'm going to work on trying to memorize that many tunes for one gig. I turned the gig down.

I would do it if was the leading to more work, but it wasn't. The regular guitar player just had to take the night off and I hardly ever have holes in my schedule with my own band.

On the flip side, when I hire people to stand in with my band, I usually like to talk to them and see what material they already know, and what we need to do to get through the night. I try to make it as easy as possible for them because it's only one gig. I've found that most of them don't do much homework at all really. (even if I provide charts & mp3's)

By the tone of my post, I may sound like I'm not much for doing homework other people's gig. Not the case at all. I like to show up on time, knowing the material, and make THEM sound good. But I do believe there limitations withing that where where you have to weigh the total scope of work versus what the gig pays and see if it's worth doing.

I
Over the Christmas holidays, I got a call to stand in with a band for a $150 club gig. I told the guy that I was not up on the current country stuff so much, but I would learn some tunes if we could fill in the rest with throw downs (Haggard, Strait, etc) He was good with that and said he'd get the material to me ASAP. The gig was about 10 days off and I had to keep asking for the material, because I wouldn't have much time over Christmas weekend. About 4 days later, I get the set list of 45 tunes and I know 2 of them. I could learn 43 tunes in less than a week, but it's a pretty big chore. I also happened to talk to a bass player that played with these guys for one gig, and they gave him crap about using charts because they didn't like they way it looked on stage. So even if I charted out 43 tunes and could play them (signature licks, improv the rest), there is no way I'm going to work on trying to memorize that many tunes for one gig. I turned the gig down.

I know this scenario - been on the receiving end too - usually singers who don't play are the worst offenders :roll:. You learn their rep, and then using a third of it on the gig, cause they don't actually know the songs that well themselves, and end up using 'filler' tunes that everyone can jam. "Thanks, I didn't need those two days I spent learning your tunes anyway..."

Part of me thinks - I'll just get that rep in my bag, it'll help me get more gigs with this artist or elsewhere. Part of me cannot be bothered - in the back of my mind I'm guessing I'll learn them once and never use it again.

I You learn their rep, and then using a third of it on the gig, cause they don't actually know the songs that well themselves, and end up using 'filler' tunes that everyone can jam. "Thanks, I didn't need those two days I spent learning your tunes anyway..."

Part of me thinks - I'll just get that rep in my bag, it'll help me get more gigs with this artist or elsewhere. Part of me cannot be bothered - in the back of my mind I'm guessing I'll learn them once and never use it again.

G-d do I know this one!
One leader asked SPECIFICALLY if I know the middle part of "Strawberry Letter 23". I say no but I'll definitely learn it. Good excuse actually to learn that part. Do we play it on the gig ... NO!
So consequently I never learn anything that guy asks me about any more (everything on his gig has paper - chord charts any way). I'm still his first call guy. A lot of the time I have to send a sub ... he still calls me first every time. Don't ever do any more work than you really feel you have to. Not for $150.00 if you're already fairly established. I'm speaking generally here but if you already do a top 40 gig of whatever variety and have been for a while you don't need to practice for a one off gig.

I'm still his first call guy. A lot of the time I have to send a sub ... he still calls me first every time.

Send in that smokin' sub that landed your semi-regular. Its just the right thing to do :mrgreen:

Send in that smokin' sub that landed your semi-regular. Its just the right thing to do :mrgreen:

I have. This particular group just 'likes' me better :?::mrgreen:.

*The guy I sent who knocked me out my chair is a great friend (as is probably surmised by the fact that I'm talking about it). We play in a guitar quartet together.

Over the Christmas holidays, I got a call to stand in with a band for a $150 club gig. I told the guy that I was not up on the current country stuff so much, but I would learn some tunes if we could fill in the rest with throw downs (Haggard, Strait, etc) He was good with that and said he'd get the material to me ASAP. The gig was about 10 days off and I had to keep asking for the material, because I wouldn't have much time over Christmas weekend. About 4 days later, I get the set list of 45 tunes and I know 2 of them. I could learn 43 tunes in less than a week, but it's a pretty big chore. I also happened to talk to a bass player that played with these guys for one gig, and they gave him crap about using charts because they didn't like they way it looked on stage. So even if I charted out 43 tunes and could play them (signature licks, improv the rest), there is no way I'm going to work on trying to memorize that many tunes for one gig. I turned the gig down.

Several years ago there was a local bandleader (standup bass) who hired me for guitar and vocals for a wedding, along with a sax player. He hired me based on seeing me perform solo. He assured me that he would do the tunes I already was performing (they were mostly standards), as this was the material he wanted and he needed a singer. The gig was also fairly short notice and I did not have time to learn tons of tunes. However, when we got to the gig, he placed a massive fake book on the stand in front of me and proceeded to call out tunes I didn't know for almost the entire evening. These were hardcore jazz guys and quite honestly, I was lost and it was a bad experience. On top of that, for all of the aggravation, I made way less than I make on my solo gigs and it was pretty stressful.

Definitely a gig I should have turned down.

The only upside (and it's a big one) is that I learned how inadequate I was to handle that type of situation.

That's a 'classic' too!
You guys are reminding of a lot stuff I've forgotten about.

In the late 90's I worked with blues/Jazz/R&B 'shouter' and sax player Big Jay McNeeley. We would rehearse all these tunes and arrangements before a gig and never play any of them on the gig.

In the early 80's I was privileged to back up Do Diddley in a house band situation. Just him, no Lady Bo, no Bo band. We show up at the club at 4:00 to go over some stuff. All we do is listen to him tell stories and do a little imbibing. The bass player keeps asking, "should we go over some stuff?". Bo just says, "ah don't worry, you know it - just Bo Diddley songs". The only Bo Diddley song we played all night was 'Bo Diddley'. The rest were really obscure standards and blues tunes. It was actually really great because he was the best band leader I've ever worked for. He always let us know where he was and where he was going with a nod of the head, raising of the brow or a hand signal. At the beginning of each set he'd have the band play the 'Bo Diddley' beat (Bo Diddley) and he would wait for what seemed like an eternity to come out on stage (probably 3 minutes - seemed like 15). He wouldn't come out until he felt we were locked into the groove. Super cool experience for me.
Big Jay was/is like that too. He really stresses the importance of 'the lock'.

However, when we got to the gig, he placed a massive fake book on the stand in front of me and proceeded to call out tunes I didn't know for almost the entire evening. These were hardcore jazz guys and quite honestly, I was lost and it was a bad experience. On top of that, for all of the aggravation, I made way less than I make on my solo gigs and it was pretty stressful.

Definitely a gig I should have turned down.

Been in EXACTLY that place. Once. Still cringe looking back, and feeling like a total deadweight when bandleader was handing out the (meagre) dollars in the parking lot. I could just *feel* the other guys doing the math vs my contribution to the bandstand. But I had turned down other work to keep the date, so I really didn't want to just waive my portion.


In the late 90's I worked with blues/Jazz/R&B 'shouter' and sax player Big Jay McNeeley. We would rehearse all these tunes and arrangements before a gig and never play any of them on the gig.

Oh MAN... I worked with a great 6pc swing band and they'd done some tours with Big Jay the last few years. (I didn't tour as I'm just the main sub for their piano player) but they'd come back with STORIES :lol: Same deal - completely different rep on the night, and almost none of his classic 50s/60s jump material. Insect Ball played as a 4/4 funk tune? :shock:

Just this Nov we did a festival and I was sharing accom with the band dudes... walked out into the kitchen in the morning - this homestead was in the middle of the australian outback bush... and there's Mr. McNeely, sitting in britches & suspenders, chompin on some fried bird - mind you there's not an eatery for at least 20miles. Pretty surreal.

Yeah, that's the gig! - 'Insect Ball' funk with wah-wah!
Autumn Leaves, just the first 8 repeated ... funk with wah. Totally surreal.

The only one of his hits that we did standard was 'Cherry Pie'.

Been in EXACTLY that place. Once. Still cringe looking back, and feeling like a total deadweight when bandleader was handing out the (meagre) dollars in the parking lot. I could just *feel* the other guys doing the math vs my contribution to the bandstand. But I had turned down other work to keep the date, so I really didn't want to just waive my portion.

Yup. During the gig I mentioned, I flubbed a lyric on "What a Wonderful World" of all tunes, and I could see and hear the sax player mentioning the flub to the bass player while we were still playing the tune.

Also, some of the tunes they asked me to play were uptempo numbers that changed keys constantly and I had never heard them before. So when they nodded to me to do a solo, I was really sweating.

That's the one problem with playing standards in a solo setting for the majority of my gigs (at least at that time): I never had to leave my comfort zone and play with real jazz guys who could transpose on a dime and who may have a different way of arranging the tune than I was used to. The kind of guys who could play just about any of these tunes in any key in their sleep without even thinking about it. I knew what I knew and that was pretty much it. I very quickly learned how much I didn't know. Although I perform many "standards," my background and upbringing was rock and I quickly learned that there's a big difference between rock guys who play "jazzy stuff" or "jazz flavored" and people who spent their entire lives studying that music. They definitely weren't sweating up there.

Yup. During the gig I mentioned, I flubbed a lyric on "What a Wonderful World" of all tunes, and I could see and hear the sax player mentioning the flub to the bass player while we were still playing the tune.

See that there changes things for me... in terms of regard for people like that. Its one thing to be on another echelon of musical ability, its another to make a thing of it let alone on the bandstand. Its just a personality trait but in that situation I'd immediately default to a "don't give a rats" about their opinion of me.

No matter how good someone is, someone else will smoke em and almost always - the calibre of musicianship is inversely proportional to the level off ***hole-ism. The most smokin' players I know are the nicest, most generous players and persons you could meet. Its usually the halfway-up-the-rung guys that do the whole 'elite-jazz' thing...

Inferring the following from your post:
Have a thick skin
Don't make the frontperson feel like a dolt
Bandleaders who are sidemen need to know how to pick their lineups.