Advice about our guitar player, and guitarists in general

Our band consists of 2 guitars (I am one of em, plus I sing lead on 1/4 of the songs we play), Keys, Bass, Drums, and a Female Vocalist. Pretty standard cover band eh.

Well, our other guitarist is having trouble fitting into the pocket on songs where there is not much guitar you know. . I try to tell him to kind of pull back and when your part comes in, then shine through. Seems he does not really know how to "NOT" play. Always has to be strumming or plucking something. Songs tend to sound like a continuous rock guitar solo. Any advice on how to deal with this kind of player? I understand that sometimes you feel silly standing on a stage in front of people and not playing anything, but dynamics is key I think. Plenty of songs I feel have too much going on, I just hang back and clap my hands, dance along, or shake a maraca and sing back ups.

It may seem too obvious but listen to the original song and only play 'those' parts between the two of you. If there's only one guitar part somebody either lay out, double the one guitar part. Or, depending on the style, pick up an acoustic and strum 1/8 notes, find a cool 'one-note/two-note' pluck pattern, arpeggiate the chords (quietly), double the main part on the choruses and bridge, etc.

Our band has 3 guitarists. Here's how we approach things;

Most of the music we play, Classic Rock, has at least two, sometimes three guitar parts in the original recordings. So we assign those specific parts to each guitarist in the band.
Our 'lead' guitarist plays all the solos, (that's why he is the lead guitarist) unless it's a solo that originally required two or three guitars to play harmonized parts, such as an Allman Bros tune with harmony guitar parts. If it is a tune that requires only one guitar in any part of the song the other guitarists lay out to help with dynamics or add hand percussion, but as needed.

If you listen to the original songs with a focus on what the guitars are doing (helps to listen on headphones) you'll find that most recordings have very defined parts for the various guitars on the track, even if they are doubling each other on power chords etc.

Assign the parts, learn them, and stick to them.

Any advice on how to deal with this kind of player? .



fire him, or yourself.

I've played with this kind, there is no dealing with them, and it will never get better.

Your Tuesday dose of reality.

Or maybe I'm a lifetime pessimist, take yer pick.

fire him, or yourself.

I've played with this kind, there is no dealing with them, and it will never get better.

Your Tuesday dose of reality.

Or maybe I'm a lifetime pessimist, take yer pick.

I sort of agree. If he was capable of laying out to serve the song, he'd be doing so. If he's over the age of 20, I'd say he's probably stuck in his ways.

Not to say you shouldn't talk to him and raise the issue, but don't expect miracles.

Cool. I don't think i can fire him, as I'm the newbie in the band, and the youngest. The classic rock numbers we do that are guitar driven sound great, but we also do some funk, pop, and dance where too much is too much.

Is there a delicate way (you know our guitar player egos) of saying "don't play anything until the solo", or "shake this shaker on this one"? I wouldn't mind he play the guitar parts instead of me, but I think his tone is stuck on overdrive so it doesn't quite fit the poppy funk numbers.

Can you talk to the other guys in the band about it first? They may like his playing.

Can you talk to the other guys in the band about it first? They may like his playing.

That is a very good point!

You may just approach it different. I was pretty bad filling in the holes in a couple
of bands, until someone told me, that I don't have to carry the band anymore.

We had more personnel, and different set lists. Just tell him the empty space is also music.

Well, our other guitarist is having trouble fitting into the pocket on songs where there is not much guitar you know. . I try to tell him to kind of pull back and when your part comes in, then shine through. Seems he does not really know how to "NOT" play. Always has to be strumming or plucking something. Songs tend to sound like a continuous rock guitar solo. Any advice on how to deal with this kind of player? I understand that sometimes you feel silly standing on a stage in front of people and not playing anything, but dynamics is key I think. Plenty of songs I feel have too much going on, I just hang back and clap my hands, dance along, or shake a maraca and sing back ups.

Sounds to me like what you have on your hands is a closet fiddle player. Not that there's anything wrong with that. The best thing to do to make this type of person stop playing is to turn around and either tell him a joke or ask what key the song is in. He'll have to stop playing to think about the answer to either.

i kinda agree with everybody here. i've definitely seen 'em before, and it prolly won't get any better. but, you may try recording a show and listening to it back with him. he may just do this stuff and not realise he's slopping up the tunage. few things are more frustrating than this, especially if the guy can really play. most of the people i've seen who play this way weren't particularly good.

I don't know if I'm wise or old and tired, but the result may be the same. I just shut up and play now. My days of telling other people how to play is long over. If I don't like what a band is doing I either shut up and enjoy the parts I enjoy, or I find another band.

On a more upbeat note, we had a harp player sit in last night who actually knows how to play WITH the band and NOT play over the vocals. :grin:

On a more upbeat note, we had a harp player sit in last night that actually knows how to play WITH the band and NOT play over the vocals. :grin:

Holy sheep****. Where'd you find that? :grin:

Cool. I don't think i can fire him, as I'm the newbie in the band, and the youngest. The classic rock numbers we do that are guitar driven sound great, but we also do some funk, pop, and dance where too much is too much.

Is there a delicate way (you know our guitar player egos) of saying "don't play anything until the solo", or "shake this shaker on this one"? I wouldn't mind he play the guitar parts instead of me, but I think his tone is stuck on overdrive so it doesn't quite fit the poppy funk numbers.


Sure, this can work... in band fantasyland.

Look, I'm old and jaded, but, from my personal experience with guys JUST LIKE THIS, over and over, they do what they do, and they dont want to change, and usually resent anybody suggesting anything different.

You can try all the things all these guys have mentioned, and they're all excellent suggestions... but from my experience, its gonna be a waste of time with a guy like this.

Happy tuesday!!

Holy sheep****. Where'd you find that? :grin:

Easy. He's the singer.

Speak to the other band members behind his back, a sort of insidious whispering campaign about the other guitarists lack of consideration and inflated ego. This will slowly undermine his confidence and credibility amongst his peers and, eventually, he will leave of his own accord, allowing you to hire someone better.

That technique has got rid of several egos who have tried to play whilst I'm soloing. No room for egos in my band.

That almost went over my head. Excellent.

Do you operate with a sound board? Just have the board operator turn him down ;o)

That can backfire though. A local "all star" surf group was playing "Wipeout" at a small outdoor amphitheater, with one of the original players in the Surfaris (I think the guy that wrote the song). It looked obvious to me that what he was playing was not in the mix (looked like he was just noddling around to another song) but when it came time for a solo they tossed it to him (being THE original player) but the board op forgot to turn him back up. As he played away, still hearing his own small amp and perhaps his monitor on stage, it wasn't in the PA. The other members frantically motioned to the board op to turn him up. He did, just in time for the last few notes.

How long has this band been together that you recently joined? Are there paying gigs involved, professional situations that require top notch musical abilities, or is this just a bunch of people getting together to play for fun? What are the long term goals? All these variables could impact on how you play out the situation.


But I like the direct approach - tell the other guitarist "hey buddy, shut the hell up with all your playing all the time, you suck and nobody wants to hear your wanking anymore". That should make for a fun band practice. :lol:

:) I think the band has been together for a year or so with different musicians coming in here and there. They are just starting to gig though since they've added me. We do get paid a small bit, nothing to write home about.

The guy can actually play in his natural style, which is classic rock. However the band wants to expand to more danceable stuff and thats where at the end of these songs we are all like "something sounds off...(including the guitarist)". I've subtly said, "hey try to turn off the distortion, play only this rhythm part here, or hold off till the solo. He somehow finds another thing to play.

One guy mentioned it above, there are more players so he does not have to carry the songs anymore.

I also don't want to get rid of him. He's a good level headed person, who puts in the work.

I can feel a certain amount of sympathy - I used to BE that guy back in the day. Luckily I eventually grew out of it. Taping band rehearsals and listening back to the mishmash did it for me.

You've got three choices if you don't get rid of him:
1. Make him see the error of his ways and get with the program (the means are open to debate).
2. Change your playlist to accommodate his style.
3. Grit your teeth and hope things get better.

Having tried all three of these in my long and checkered career, in my experience only #1 has a snowball's chance in hell of working.

The problem with ***** footing around is his ego gets an opportunity to well up and become an issue. If you are blunt and just show frustration and say abruptly, Have you heard the song, that is not in it, it doesn't really fit....

This way it becomes a non debateable event, the band will either agree or not and you will have a solution one way or the other.

I often just say this song doesn't work with that xxx part in it, we either play it without/like the original or I'd rather we not play it, what do you guys think?.....in most cases the others are hearing what you are hearing and agree, then an opportunity to resolve the issue becomes a band thing not a you against him thing (which will always cause strife...).

Fortunatley my band mates are mechanic / engineer types who just say it how it is. As a softie it took me awhile to handle but in terms of the band making good decisions it really works.

Of course you need to bare in mind it might be you next time it is said to....but that is life!

I've been looking everywhere for that pic of Mr. Polsfuss trying to unplug Beck. I'd follow his lead...

I've been looking everywhere for that pic of Mr. Polsfuss trying to unplug Beck. I'd follow his lead...

Found a video, he goes for it about 5:10 in.
http://youtu.be/LrC_oqWq2pU
http://youtu.be/LrC_oqWq2pU

This guy sounds like so many people I've dealt with in my life...makes me sick. They have no natural ear for music (if they did, they'd understand how songs are laid out, how parts are played, etc), they can't turn off their overdrive (because it's a crutch not a "sound"), and most likely if you say anything to him he's going to go immediately on the offensive and take it as a personal attack.

Best thing to do is either you move on, or talk to the other members and have him move on.

Welcome to reality.

Found a video, he goes for it about 5:10 in.

LrC_oqWq2pU

Yes!:lol:

Easy. He's the singer.

You're pretty close. He has his own band and is the only singer in that line up. The guy is just a really nice pro, way above what we're doing but very gracious and just found his way to fit in. On our side we made sure he got plenty of blowing time in every song.

A while ago I did a gig with a second guitarist that for whatever reason had to play all the time on every song. There was also a keys player on the gig so as you might imagine - plenty of harmony happening.

Since It's not my band and I couldn't get him to shut up I'd just stop playing.
Sometimes I didn't play for the whole song. Sometimes I'd just 'solo' and then lay out. Sometimes I'd get a beer and sit down at the bar or hang out at a booth with the customers ... and come up for a solo (that looked f'd up -lol!)
But now when I do that gig, I'm the only guitar player. I never said a word. The other guys in the band figured it out.

Dude, I've done the same thing. Left the stage, hit the bar, took a leak, checked my eMail, etc.:lol:

I think I replaced a dude once, only because he would not turn off his wah wah
on every song....he did not get it.

fire him, or yourself.

I've played with this kind, there is no dealing with them, and it will never get better.

Your Tuesday dose of reality.

Or maybe I'm a lifetime pessimist, take yer pick.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hate what you are saying, but only because I agree with you 100%
Been there, tried to work with that, ain't doin' it tomorrow.

People have to do their 'thing'.
His thing may be not being able to lay-out due to some kind of insecurity.

Any advice on how to deal with this kind of player?

Strategically placed puddle of water. Nudge nudge wink wink.

you may try recording a show and listening to it back with him.

We had a bkgr singer in our band a while back who insisted on playing harmonica. However, on cross harp style he just didn't have it down. We finally got a good recording of a gig and his cross harp playing sounded like a bad duck call, ruining every song he'd played on. After he listened to the recording of the show he got the message loud and clear. He has since moved on to bless another band with his harmonica playing.

After he listened to the recording of the show he got the message loud and clear. He has since moved on to bless another band with his harmonica playing.

Are you sure he got the message? :mrgreen:

To many cooks in the kitchen, if you both put salt in the stew it will be to salty. The spices have to compliment each other. If he don't get the metaphor tell him to get the hell out of the kitchen. Like others I've been there so many times, maybe been on the other side myself, but I've learned. It all comes from experience and GOOD EARS and working for the the good of the mix. Tell him to read some of these posts, guys here are right on

Unfortunately all of this reminds me of one of my favorite personal anecdotes:

"Too many guitar players are way more interested in guitar playing than music."


I have to say I'm with Rod and others on this one. First of all the guy has to check the ego at the door and be open and have some humility. But even so, with this sort of thing, if he doesn't already "get it", he probably never will. Possible, but not likely.

That said, I do have a suggestion.



I understand that sometimes you feel silly standing on a stage in front of people and not playing anything, but dynamics is key I think. Plenty of songs I feel have too much going on, I just hang back and clap my hands, dance along, or shake a maraca and sing back ups.


You got it, dynamics are everything. The following rules of thumb are a generalization and of course don't work for every type of song or every part. With 10 being 'loudest' and 1 being 'softest', try working with the guy on setting volume/attack for different sections within song forms.

Solos: 10

Fills: 5-9*

* "Call and response" type fills that sit between the spaces of other parts and aren't going to walk on anything can be louder, but don't have to be. "Takeoff" fills (that's what I've always heard 'em called) that noodle busily away under the vocal (like you often hear in lots of ole-timey music, bluegrass, western swing, etc.) should be considerably softer, not to mention extremely well placed. Not the sort of thing you often hear in pop and rock though.

Verses; playing under a soloist: 3-6

Choruses/refrains; bridges: 5-7


Again, way oversimplified, and one size doesn't fit all. There are of course other types of song sections such as interludes, vamps, etc. Often dynamics are escalated for bridges, but it depends on where they sit within the form. Sometimes a bridge can be placed after an instrumental break and it may want to be among the softer sections. Tunes that contain pre-choruses may want to sit volume wise somewhere between the verse and chorus. Beyond all that, none of this guarantees that the guy's gonna play the "right" part - but it's a start.




And yeah, one thing that always sits alongside my whatnots at shows is an egg shaker. And it doesn't bug me at all to have a few swigs of Budweiser during a section where I'm not needed.

Tell him about it plainly.

See if he changes.

If he gives attitude, remove him or yourself.

If he doesn't change, remove him or yourself.

If your band members ask why you're leaving, tell them the truth, but be sure to say it isn't personal. There is a chance the guy will seriously consider his playing or the band will force him to change at that point.

If you get the feeling that this guy is not open minded or approachable and telling him will cause unneeded stress in your life, skip the tell him plainly part and just leave.

---

I know that communication is needed in bands, and sometimes a member just doesn't get a certain part and they need to be worked with, but it's not your job to teach him how to be a sharp musician. I really don't like dealing with clueless musicians and I don't do it anymore. I like to take control of the situation myself where I'm the one in charge. Either he changes, or I'd go.

I'm sooooooo glad I'm the only guitarist in the band I'm in! I hate the egos of those guys! :mrgreen:

I'm just gonna be straight with him. We actually have a video of our last gig, and it's pretty clear (at least to me) that there was too much guitar going on, on some of the songs.

If he gets it, great! If not, I'll either have to just accept it or quit the group. Like I said I wouldn't want to get rid of him. He puts in the work, is organized, does most of the lugging of the P.A. to gigs (he is the only one with a truck), and is generally a cool guy....all these things are more important than guitar skills in my book :)

I'm gonna swim against the tide and say this, if you're the new guy I don't think its right to waltz in and start telling other people what to play after only a few gigs . Particularly if this guy is doing most of the organising and lugging. It sounds like its his band. My opinion, try to fit in or move on. At the very least you need to make sure the other band members agree if you are going to say something.

Personally I just don't agree with telling other people what to do in these situations. Couple of guys I play with do try to tell me what or how to play sometimes and it does rankle a bit to be honest cos I don't ever try to tell others how to play. That's not what a band is about IMO. My approach is, just let others do their thing and if I don't like their thing I just try to put up with it or move on.

I may have a little insight to this topic. I have been a solo acoustic guy for many years. The first band I ever played in/with was the church band I'm in now. I'm used to having to carry the song by myself; If I stop playing, the song stops.

It's taken me a couple of years to learn that not every song the band plays needs my driving acoustic rythm throughout the whole song. That's why I've started playing my Tele at church now.:mrgreen:

I may have a little insight to this topic. I have been a solo acoustic guy for many years. The first band I ever played in/with was the church band I'm in now. I'm used to having to carry the song by myself; If I stop playing, the song stops.

It's taken me a couple of years to learn that not every song the band plays needs my driving acoustic rythm throughout the whole song. That's why I've started playing my Tele at church now.:mrgreen:

You bring up a good point -- if this guitar player is not used to having two guitars, it may explain why he is now overplaying.

That said -- I agree you be straight up about it, but I doubt he'll want to change. At that point, since you're the newbie, you'll have to decide whether it's worth it or not.

My band plays with two guitarists (I'm one) and thankfully we mesh very well. We both understand there needs to be ebbs and flows to the music -- this is what separates the men from the boys much of the time.

It is what it is. The OP's other guitar player wants to or needs to play every beat of every measure? I guess the rest of the band can decide that is cool and work with it. So everyone else plays less then, right? Some time soon, prearrange with the rest of the band to get everyone to stop playing at a certain point in a song. See how long until he notices. Be sure to do this in a live show.

I've seen guys overplay when they don't know a song very well (i.e. they need to play every single beat because if they stop they'll get lost). Maybe this could be contributing?

Personally I just don't agree with telling other people what to do in these situations. Couple of guys I play with do try to tell me what or how to play sometimes and it does rankle a bit to be honest cos I don't ever try to tell others how to play. That's not what a band is about IMO

Sorry, but i have to disagree with you. To me a band is about playing as a team for the good of the song (i.e making the song as good as it can be with joint, co-ordinated effort), not as individual soloists doing there own thing in the hope that together it sounds alright......

If someon is asking you to change or "try" a change, why is that a problem?

Isn't part of the fun making something better than the sum of it's parts?

I am not as experienced as some of the guys here by a long shot but one of greatest feelings to me is when the magic comes and the music blossoms out to something much more than just the 3 or 4 guys playing parts.....always makes me grin.

Teamwork, practice, co-ordinated effort ...call it what you will...I think your missing something if you think that is not part of being in a band.

YMMV.:wink:

Did he do a solo thing, or was the only guitar player in a band without keyboards? They can sometimes change when they realize that they are overplaying. As you are the newbie, you need to try to fit in, play the parts he is not playing. Our lead singer did a solo act for a long time, so she plays a very full rhythm guitar. As "stunt guitarist", I sometimes play an octave higher, different voicings, along with the bass player, palm mute, add harmonics, etc. I must admit that constant "noodling" during songs would have me out the door.

The only thing worse than a "music noodler" is one that does it with distortion!! Everybody drops a clam or two during a live performance, but to constantly be playing over everything else with little regard for the sound of the song is just too self absorbed.

Ask yourself: Are others noticing the same thing? Talk to your band mates, and even regularly attending audience members who know about music for their impressions. Talk to the guy, show him the video, if he doesn't get it or refuses to work on things then the band as a group has a decision to make. If that decision is not to your satisfaction then you have to decide whether you can live with it or if you have to walk.

I've been in the situation where really good band members have quit because of others who aren't playing up to the standards the rest of the band members are. Eventually the entire band falls apart.

Sure, bands are about having fun but part of the fun is knowing that you sound as good up there as possible. If you're just jamming in the garage, that's different, but paying audiences and venue owners have expectations and you should have expectations for yourself as a band and as individuals.

Sometimes tough decisions have to be made. Nobody likes them, which is why they're tough! That doesn't mean you have to me mean about it, but being honest with him is the best approach for all involved. Give him a gig or two to change and if he improves, great, but let him know that it's gotta be once and for all, any backsliding will not be tolerated. Sounds tough, but it's necessary so that the band is always at its best.

Sorry, but i have to disagree with you. To me a band is about playing as a team for the good of the song (i.e making the song as good as it can be with joint, co-ordinated effort), not as individual soloists doing there own thing in the hope that together it sounds alright......

If someon is asking you to change or "try" a change, why is that a problem?

Isn't part of the fun making something better than the sum of it's parts?

I am not as experienced as some of the guys here by a long shot but one of greatest feelings to me is when the magic comes and the music blossoms out to something much more than just the 3 or 4 guys playing parts.....always makes me grin.

Teamwork, practice, co-ordinated effort ...call it what you will...I think your missing something if you think that is not part of being in a band.

YMMV.:wink:

You're missing my point completely. And misquoting me. I didn't say anything about a band being a bunch of soloists, or that it shouldn't be about teamwork, or any of that. What I'm saying is I generally don't agree with telling others what to play. In my experience its usually divisive and not worth the trouble. If its done in the right context and done in a positive and constructive way, fine. But in my experience its usually isn't done that way.

In my opinion being the new guy in a band is definitely not the right context to be telling others what to play. Particularly when the other guy is established in the band and does most of the organising and lugging. In that situation you just try to fit in, or move on if you don't like his playing.

Dave has it covered. This guy is never going to change. You guys will get mad at me yet again when I say it but since a lot of us hate playing with another guitar player, the "new guy" might be there because of the problems this guy is giving everybody esle. So if the new guy just quits without saying anything everybody loses.

Dave has it covered. This guy is never going to change. You guys will get mad at me yet again when I say it but since a lot of us hate playing with another guitar player, the "new guy" might be there because of the problems this guy is giving everybody esle. So if the new guy just quits without saying anything everybody loses.


I've seen this happen. The band brings in a "second" guitarist for a while. They have two guitarists while "the new guy" learns the material. When the new guy learns all the songs, all of a sudden they become a one guitar band again.

Have the whole band sit and listen to a recording of some of the songs at issue, tell them you think its too "busy" and let them analyse the problem and come up with the solution. Maybe he'll even spot it himself.

I'm proud some of you still have enough faith in the human race to think this guy will see he is the problem. But he won't. It's about 99 44/100s chance he will say "man if you stop trying to play (and sing) on top of me it would really clean things up."

OP Here :)

I totally agree it's more his band than mine. So I will just make my suggestions about the song structure, and if he complies great, if not oh well and move on to the next song :) .

In all reality, if I can just sing and not play guitar at all then I wouldn't have to lug any equipment around anyway.

OP Here :)

I totally agree it's more his band than mine. So I will just make my suggestions about the song structure, and if he complies great, if not oh well and move on to the next song :) .

In all reality, if I can just sing and not play guitar at all then I wouldn't have to lug any equipment around anyway.

Another solution to hauling your rig around would be to fire the guy as a guitarist and hire him as your roadie.

Wait...that's a little to harsh.

What I meant to say was fire the guy as a guitarist and hire him as your guitar tech.

Setting fire to the guy and treating him like a guitar tech is still harsh....... treat him like a useful member of society at least. :wicked:

If one guitar player in a two-guitar band is overplaying, he is overplaying. Since you're the newbie, you're in a tough spot. The way you described all this makes me want to advise you to just leave. Tell everyone in the band it isn't working for you. When they ask you to explain, your best bet is to tell them there is too much guitar going on altogether to suit your taste or the way you like to see the songs performed. At that point, one of two things will happen: They will either say goodbye and good luck or want you to explain further. At that point, you can state you case to the whole band without fear of looking like you're picking on the guitar player.

If one guitar player in a two-guitar band is overplaying, he is overplaying. Since you're the newbie, you're in a tough spot. The way you described all this makes me want to advise you to just leave. Tell everyone in the band it isn't working for you. When they ask you to explain, your best bet is to tell them there is too much guitar going on altogether to suit your taste or the way you like to see the songs performed. At that point, one of two things will happen: They will either say goodbye and good luck or want you to explain further. At that point, you can state you case to the whole band without fear of looking like you're picking on the guitar player.

That is some good advice there :) . I definitely feel the music is suffering due to the guitar, BUT it's not enough to make me want to quit. We've become friends after all :), and they are good people all around (including the guitarist). I will definitely voice my opinion on how the songs sound though.

There is a time to play and a time to stand there and shake your butt.

Anyone who has made it to the point where they're able to perform on stage in public but hasn't grasped this basic concept probably never will and no amount of "talking to" is going to change that.

You can point it out to him and he may agree and try to do better, but before long he will be right back in his old (bad) habits, and you will be right back to frustration city!

Just tell him the empty space is also music.

THIS! (and +100 internets for you, sir or madam, for mentioning it so succinctly!)

Understanding that one can 'play' the music w/o emitting a sound is a huge cognitive jump for some people, and well worth spending a bit of time attempting to get across to a fellow player.

You didn't say how old you were or I missed it, but I am going to assume younger...

In another 20 or 30 years, if this Forum is still here you will post about all the guitar players you worked with over the past 20 or 30 years that "DIDN"T GET IT " .

"How do you get a guitar player to stop playing ?
Take the guitar away from him..


Some of us learn fairly early in our journey to become rock gods that , uhmm, maybe I shouldn't be playing right here...Some of us learn it a little later on our journey and some, no matter how good they may be , "NEVER LEARN IT.


Some guitar players in bands just feel the need or think it's quite ok to just play trills or noodle during the entire song. IT"S NOT. The reason I know this is because if you see an Orchestra with 100 musicians, parts are written for the sections, they play then they DON'T PLAY...uhmm..why would that be ?

In the case here the OP has figured it out...but sadly he may be playing in a band where each of the other players have not figured it out...and maybe never will. I suspect his membership in this particular band is short lived as he will never be able to get beyond the other guitar player never shutting up and the only one that will pretty much "lift" and stay out of the way is him, and that gets old real fast.


Oh..I guess you guys can tell I've been here before ! :lol:

t PS , I just had to add this..

Not long ago I was asked to come to a rehearsal and to play Pedal Steel, they were thinking of adding me to some bigger gigs, sounded good to me..So during a few songs they wanted me to take the full solo, of which I thought was good for the song..BUT...the guitar player played in between my lines thus causing my solo to keep changing direction...now I'm playing anticipating some form of obnoxious guitar part to play on top of me, no more glisses, no more fade in's fade outs...no more sustains , now also add that the guitar player was adding rocked out lines thru his AC30 over my laid back Country lines in a County song... Ok, after we finished I packed up and left, they kept calling me to come to more rehearsals I just told them I was busy...that was the best way for me to handle it..they stopped calling.

He's a good level headed person

If that's really the case then he won't object to some constructive criticism.

Nothing like an audio recording or dvd to show folks what not to play,I learned tons about editing my parts when the drummer made camcorder tapes of our gigs.

T Prior - Im 30 years old. And everything you say is truth man. Word is born.

UPDATE, I did mention on two songs we do (Let's Dance - Bowie, and Miss You - Rolling Stones) that less guitar is more, and to work your clean channel....he complied, but he seemed uncomfortable and it sounded awkward. Oh well, I think I'll just let him play what makes him happy.

Every band needs a conductor. I don't know who leads your band but whoever that is needs to lay down the law and make each player stick to their part.

I don't know if I'm wise or old and tired, but the result may be the same. I just shut up and play now. My days of telling other people how to play is long over. If I don't like what a band is doing I either shut up and enjoy the parts I enjoy, or I find another band.

+1

Another solution to hauling your rig around would be to fire the guy as a guitarist and hire him as your roadie.

Wait...that's a little to harsh.

What I meant to say was fire the guy as a guitarist and hire him as your guitar tech.

As Groove Hammer's drummer likes to say, "At my age I'd much rather have a roadie instead of a groupie!"

I have a second guitar but he sits down and hammers on a bunch of pedals and knee bars.. perfect combo..for me. :) just saying :wink:

Oh ya the topic..he probably won't change its awkward kinda like a fly marrying a bumble bee.:lol:

T Prior - Im 30 years old. And everything you say is truth man. Word is born.

UPDATE, I did mention on two songs we do (Let's Dance - Bowie, and Miss You - Rolling Stones) that less guitar is more, and to work your clean channel....he complied, but he seemed uncomfortable and it sounded awkward. Oh well, I think I'll just let him play what makes him happy.

Sounds like a compromise that you can live with (for now) based on how you describe that all are 'good guys' and pull their weight.

I'm in a similar situation with a 2 guitar band that also has a keyboard player. On songs without keys, he is always doing 'fill in' playing as a duplicate rythym guitar with the existing guy. He's just a strummer and does not work much on tone so it was a negative impact on our overall sound (and he's on my side of the stage so I get to REALLY hear it!). A few months ago I mentioned the importance of dynamics and he at least tones it down now so it's pretty much harmless regarding total impact to the sound of the band. Now I'm biting my tounge because he always has all this gear we have to deal with for setup/teardown and about 2/3 of it isn't necessary! Good guy, pulls his weight and we are still enjoying ourselves and getting work so I'm living with it.

Jam a couple of reggae numbers, teach him about space and economy in music.

Give him a recording of anything with Steve Cropper playing on it, and tell him to really listen to the guitar playing.

Seriously, the soul band I play in, often ask me to play more guitar and turn up a bit.

I keep saying that this is a dangerous thing to say to a guitarist.:wink:

I CANNOT be the only guitar player who doesn't mind constructive criticism. I want to sound good, and guys I play with want the same. In fact, it's safe to say that we all want each other to sound good as well.

I have, on occasion, overplayed, but when our drummer compared and contrasted my phrasing on two different versions of the same song, I had to admit that I was busy and hurried on one, as good as I can get on the other.

I also cannot be the only person who likes and enjoys the company of the folks I play with.

You say you have video of the last show...can you upload to Youtube so we can see what is actually going on :shock::lol: If we could see this...we could really comment on the video via Youtube and you could show everyone what is being said about over playing and let the band take it from there and decide what to do :wink:

It is pretty amazing that with a world full of guitar players it's near impossible to get two in the same band that can actually play together ..I wonder why that is ?

It is pretty amazing that with a world full of guitar players it's near impossible to get two in the same band that can actually play together ..I wonder why that is ?

I must have lucked out then -- I'm a guitarist in a two-guitar band and we play together very well. Of course, we both have issues with our bass player. :roll:

It is pretty amazing that with a world full of guitar players it's near impossible to get two in the same band that can actually play together ..I wonder why that is ?

Why do you even care, you bastar....I mean, yeah, I wonder why.

And yet there are great examples of bands with two (or more even) guitarists that lock in together really well.

Right across the musical spectrum too.

From the Talking Heads to Iron Maiden.

The Clash to Thin Lizzy

Many others.

Listen and Learn IMO

Well, there is an approach that hasn't come up here yet, and that is to give the guy compliments when he occasionally gets it right! People tend to learn much more from beeing told what they does GOOD, then beeing criticised for what they do wrong.

I'm that second guitar player. I know when to play and when to lay back. We have lead guys who do what I can't. More than happy singing songs and playing rhythm. I get thrown an occasional solo and do my best with it. I've been given advise on what to do & what not to do by guys with lots of experience. I've been blessed by supportive, cool musicians. I must be a rare bird!

Luckily, I have no ego and little skill!!
:lol:

I'm a 2nd guitarist also. I think it was Andy Summers that once said that at the difference between a good guitarist and a great one is that the great one knows when NOT to play. Sage words. I'm no great guitarist but I think I have a really good ear for a "sound" ......if that makes sense. I'm perfectly happy hanging back, filling in bits, taking a lead vocal or doing backup. I can play a bunch different instruments, so even with my less than stellar guitar prowess, somebody like me can be usefull in a band.

As to the op. You gotta tell'm

R2QBpWk_F18 Two guitarists working together, I let the lead play lead

fire him, or yourself.

I've played with this kind, there is no dealing with them, and it will never get better.

Your Tuesday dose of reality.

Or maybe I'm a lifetime pessimist, take yer pick.

I hate to say it, but I totally agree with Rod. Save yourself the frustration of dealing with a lost cause, and move on.

Said Thelonius Monk, "You should have heard what I didn't play."

In case this is still an ongoing thing (I realize this is kind of an old thread), think of how you would feel if someone gave you some slightly embarrassing constructive criticism. I've been there, and it's hard. Not impossible, and I didn't get mad, but it's not easy to hear that sort of thing most of the time.

So maybe just stop playing sometimes and let him handle it, saying "I think this sounds better with just one guitar" or something along those lines and maybe he'll eventually get it.

Contrary to what some are saying, I think people can change. It's amazing to me how much I have 'missed' in learning to play the guitar, so every new situation is a learning experience for me. It might not always be fun, but I'm filling in the gaps in my knowledge. This guy could potentially be the same way, so as long as you don't alienate or embarrass him, he might cooperate and appreciate your help in making you guys sound better.