Loud enough?

I've started building a bass head w/ 4-output tubes, powered by a Twin PT. I'm estimating 80-120w depending on the tubes (EL34/KT88). The OT will be a Marshall-style 100w.

But my old bass player broke my heart the other night when he told me it would be a practice amp at most.

Somebody who knows, please tell me I'm not wasting my time!

I would say it all depends on what kind of music you are making and where.

I played a 100 watt bassman for years and it was never, never not loud enough and we were a teenage hard rock trio. Tube watts are a lot louder than ss watts (opinion) anyway. I have know a lot of bass player gig a Ampeg B-15, it is only 30 watts. I am using a 50 watt Bassman now, plenty loud for me. Tell your bass player I said he does not know what he is talking about. Sure, if you are playing stadiums without a PA for 50,000 people, it might, might not be loud enough...

My man, that's what I wanted to hear....

You are old enough to know by now that that's all old bass players are good for; breaking your heart. I worked 20 years full time with a 100 watt head and a 210 cabinet, playing 200-20,000 people. Out of work bass players just have a lot of time on their hands.

100 tube watts will be perfect. If you need more just DI or Mic it.

All depends on the situation. If you want your miked amp to be the sound source, then it depends on the venue and how loud your band is. If you don't mind going direct, and you have enough stage volume to hear yourself over the guitars, 100 watts will do you.

Well for now it really is going to be just a practice amp.
But amp-building is expensive, so I want it gig-worthy for when my drummer & I have time to gig.
There is something fundamentally wrong with spending all that money & time on doing it yerself, then having to pick up a $300 SS head when your creation can't be heard over the drums.
KnowhutImean?

My wife and I both use her Ampeg BA115 in 3 different bands right now and at 100 SS watts it's loud enough for all the bands. She used to use it in our 7 piece punk band and then sometimes it didn't quite cut through sometimes, but that's an extreme situation. I'm also assuming that 100 tube watts is going to be plenty and that like guitar amps, bass amps run 'louder' in tube form.

Even if it doesn't quite cut it for practice, it will probably be loud enough for shows if mic'd (don't let the soundguy DI the bass if you're putting all this effort into a nice tube amp) and also for recording.

Doesn't everyone link to the PA? I mean, that's how its done! I can't remember the last gig that I didn't. I've used a 100watt Ampeg for years, no problemo.

Bass player is wrong, build it and show him simple as that.

Bass player is wrong, build it and show him simple as that.

Hey, come on! Some guys need to compensate.

bingy you're right, but why cut him any slack? :lol:

Doesn't everyone link to the PA? I mean, that's how its done! I can't remember the last gig that I didn't. I've used a 100watt Ampeg for years, no problemo.

Shows are never the issue for me - practices are where things get trickier.

Bass player is wrong, build it and show him simple as that.

You had me at Bass player is wrong.

When you have been a performing musician a long time, one mans "headroom" turns into another mans industrial noise. (even at rehearsal).

If the people you are playing with need to wind-out full-tilt, at rehearsal, that, for me, would be a bigger problem than whether or not I had the Watts to keep up with them.

You had me at Bass player is wrong.

Funny!:lol:

Depends on where you are playing and practicing. Even if you are DI'd you need to get what you need on stage, most wedge monitors will not give you any bottom.

When I was playing bass I liked SVTs and 370s, because to me, headroom is not industrial noise. That power allowed me to use less sensitive speakers that had deeper bass extension and could actually get down to 40z. That takes power, plain and simple. You are not gonna move a lot of LF air with 100 watts.

IYE.

if I were building one, I'd get a 200 watt trannie so the 4 kt88's could do what they do best, with adjustable impedance so if the need for less power existed, two tubes could be pulled.

or a half power switch if you are clever.

if the need for less power existed, two tubes could be pulled.


As a guy, I don't understand the concept of "need for less power" ....except maybe for a studio/small gig/bedroom guitar amp. :)

I have a little trouble with that concept too - but if the poster wanted it, it's there.

you can't do it the other way around:wink:

It probably would not be a problem to find a 100 watt tube amp, Bassman, ampeg, and try it out for volume.

What Cab is it going into? What speakers? 100w into inefficent speakers and bad cab design won't be as loud as 80w into efficient speakers and a good cab.

There is a good thread on another forum where they are discussing how the rules for watts seem to have changed over the years too. Some of the manufacturers are using different methods to say what wattage their amps are so the figures are basically becoming meaningless.

But I used to gig off a 80w ss and had no problems. I'm buying a physically smaller 130w of a mate who has used it for years . He only changed because he wanted to go to a lighter Mark bass rig.

Being obsessively DIY, but without proper cabinet-building knowledge, I have procured 2-15" MDF cabs, well sealed, and loaded one with a Peavey Black Widow. The other is empty right now. They have 2.75 cu ft internal volume each. Apparently the Black widow is not the most efficient speaker at 94db or so. I will cut a 4" port if I need to.

I tried my @45w Vibroverb through the cab and as expected it didn't really drive the speaker much, but did sound good. Admittedly it is guitar circuitry so it's not really producing the frequencies this speaker wants to see. Plus I was using a guitar- still need a bass. You see how I have issues?

I'm still building this amp, already have the trannies & stuff installed. I still need $150 worth of little sundries to wrap it up.

If I were going to stack 2 cabinets for bass, I would make the second a 2 or 4 10"

We tend to think of large speakers for bass, but some of the most famous rigs/cabinets in amp history use 10" speakers. More punch.

I'll have to stick with just the one 15" cab for now, and hope the amp will drive it. I've spent too much already.

Being obsessively DIY, but without proper cabinet-building knowledge, I have procured 2-15" MDF cabs, well sealed, and loaded one with a Peavey Black Widow. The other is empty right now. They have 2.75 cu ft internal volume each. Apparently the Black widow is not the most efficient speaker at 94db or so. I will cut a 4" port if I need to.


depending on the resonant frequency of the speaker, the cabinet could be anywhere from 4 cu. ft. to 12 cu. ft.

check the Thiele Small parameters of the speaker to best match the cabinet

as well, MDF winds up falling apart easily UNLESS the internal structure is well supported AND the entire surface is well sealed.... think 3/4" voidless ply and you wont have to worry in the slightest

I gigged various 50-watt tube amps (SF Fender Bassman, Traynor YBA-3) in bars for several years, no problem.

Tim

100 watts of tube bass amp will not keep up with a Hot Rod Deluxe in the wrong hands... Maybe not even a Deluxe. maybe not a Blues Junior if those hands are really bad...

I would disagree with the above statement. I played a 100 watt bassman with a rock band for years and it was never not loud enough, I don't recall ever playing with it above a 5. I played with a lead guitarist that used a Marshall 50 watt half stack wide open for a time. No problem. I just sold a Fender Deluxe Reverb. A 100 watt bassman will bury it. When I had my 100 watt, I had the 2-15 JBL loaded cabinet. Cabinet would make some difference. Make sure your ohm load matches up.

If you search every single thread on amp volume, the only thing you'll find in common on all of them is 'it depends'. So no one is going to be able to tell you one way or the other if this build will be loud enough. Have fun doing it, finish it and see if it works. If it doesn't, let us know and start work on a louder build.

At long last, it is done. By done, I mean of course it is making very big sound & needs tweaking.
2 EL34s and 2 6CA7s in parallel do indeed drive this speaker just fine. Enough for me to realize I have no real idea how to play the bass.

Update:
It's been in service for a couple of months now with no problems. Tweaks are pretty much done. Initially it was driving a Peavey Black Widow 1508-SPS & moving pretty good LF air.

Now, I have a 2nd 15" cab with a WGS 15" bass guitar speaker loaded. I've also got a quad of 6550s ready to go.

So the answer to the original question, "Will it be loud enough" is: h*** yes!

100 wouldn't be close to enough for me, but I'm glad it's working out for you. 15s sound great, don't they? Before I went to SWR, I used the 400w EV 15 in a 2x15 cabinet. Those are great speakers, and very efficient, so you'll get more pant flap per watt.

How loud is the stage volume for you guys that need more than a 100watt bass amp? I've found it can be difficult to get vocal harmonies tight when the stage volume is too high. I run my 100wt. Ampeg at about 6 on the Master Volume and it's plenty for our 5-piece band.

I gigged various 50-watt tube amps (SF Fender Bassman, Traynor YBA-3) in bars for several years, no problem.

Tim

A Traynor YBA-3 is a lot more than 50W with 4 tubes.
I guess you were thinking of YBA-1 at 45W.
Even YBA-1A are more than 50W (specs say 90W)

Update:
It's been in service for a couple of months now with no problems. Tweaks are pretty much done. Initially it was driving a Peavey Black Widow 1508-SPS & moving pretty good LF air.

Now, I have a 2nd 15" cab with a WGS 15" bass guitar speaker loaded. I've also got a quad of 6550s ready to go.

So the answer to the original question, "Will it be loud enough" is: h*** yes!

Hold that thought!

The best bass amp I ever had was a Sunn 200S. Only one pair of KT88 bottles, but that sucker had TONE!

I sold it 'cause I was an idiot and thought I needed more power and more knobs to turn. I wish I had it back . . . . .

You are absolutely on the right track - keep at it!

I think one factor is that many, including myself, find tube amps to be much stronger/louder for their power ratings than solid state gear. A 100 watt vintage tube amp may hang very well with a 400 watt modern SS amp. There is wide variation from brand to brand to on power and model.

Finally played it in a band setting. I have 2 1x15" cabs but used only one this time. I've also put in the 6550s. Sounds great & plenty loud enough, and clean. I can hear myself just fine even playing w/ my thumb, cuts thru the drums & guitar w/ a Twin Reverb.

Being obsessively DIY, but without proper cabinet-building knowledge, I have procured 2-15" MDF cabs, well sealed, and loaded one with a Peavey Black Widow. The other is empty right now. They have 2.75 cu ft internal volume each. Apparently the Black widow is not the most efficient speaker at 94db or so. I will cut a 4" port if I need to.

I tried my @45w Vibroverb through the cab and as expected it didn't really drive the speaker much, but did sound good. Admittedly it is guitar circuitry so it's not really producing the frequencies this speaker wants to see. Plus I was using a guitar- still need a bass. You see how I have issues?

I'm still building this amp, already have the trannies & stuff installed. I still need $150 worth of little sundries to wrap it up.

This. Bass rig output is much more dependent on speaker effeciency than a 6-stringer. Remember that 3db is "double" SPL. Also remember that, all other things being equal, it takes 10x power output (50w>500w) to achieve the same doubling of SPL. Long story short, power output is NOT NEARLY as important as the effeciency rating of your cabs. You can also use multiple cabs to move more air as long as your not getting below your minimum impedance requirements.

This was made obvious to me when I compared my 2x10 cab to my 1x15 cab. There was a very noticeable volume difference (with the 1x15 being significantly louder). I think the big difference with these particular cabs is the porting, the louder cab being a folded horn variant (it's an old Guild cab from the late 60s), and the other one (a Steelsound) a sealed cab with one smallish port.

Tim

I use a Fender Rumble 350 and it does a good job however, I´ve been tempted to try my MusicMan HD 130 for bass. I may need to give it a go sometime.