Band Advice.

I need some advice, or words of wisdom. Our drummer is the issue. GREAT guy, wants to be there, helps out with band expenses, etc. He is an "Ok" player; that means he plays alright, nothing special BUT we only play tom petty, so that fits in just fine.

He is 49, and the rest of us are 22-24 years old...we found him because he works with the keyboard player. He hadn't played out in bands since about 1982 until us, and has a great time doing it.

Well here is the issue; last night we played 3 sets at a bar a few towns over...we rehearsed all day, and he sounded GREAT. At the gig? He lagged, ended songs early, ended songs late, basically everything a drummer could do which would make you nervous. The place loved us, but I was mortified.

I realize it was probably an off night but....with 2 gigs next weekend also at bars , I don't want to go through this again. Our old drummer Brian is phenomenal, knows all the songs perfectly, and WANTS to do both the gigs next weekend with us, and is 21 so he fits in a little better.


How do we tell Chris to sit out next weekend? Do we just take he chance everything will be good as usual and last night was just an off night?

Matters of band politics are very difficult to me, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or step on toes here. Plus, because we are being paid, I want to bring our "A game" as usual.

Why did you go from Brian to Chris in the first place?


Was this Chris' first gig? Or had you all played out before last night? If you had played out before, how did Chris do?

Why did you go from Brian to Chris in the first place?


Was this Chris' first gig? Or had you all played out before last night? If you had played out before, how did Chris do?

Brian lives in boston, which is pretty far away from us, but now he has a car and is willing to travel for gigs.

Chris played with us on a live radio show, and for some friends before this and did PERFECT, was very surprised. I was wondering if nerves played a factor, he played like a wind up monkey toy...I asked him a few times if he was ok and he kept saying "Yea! Hell yeah! Nervous? No!"

Was he intoxicated? That often leads mucisians astray...sometimes towards genius, sometimes not.
You could explain that the other dude is just a "better fit"...who knows, maybe you're doing the cat a favor. You got him out, but by the bug, and playing again. Maybe he'd want to jam with some older cats.

true with two drummers the - "medical dipensery fees" might be higher
but they can keep each other in time

DTCyO9MpGUM

Matters of band politics are very difficult to me, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or step on toes here.

First off, give up on this thought, people will always have hurt feelings no matter how well you do the leader job. No matter how much I suck I want to be in the band and I feel bad for myself when I can't.

I would tend to look long term, and if that is your old drummer then I would make the switch. But.... if the old drummer is not committed or able to make all the gigs and rehearsals due to distance & travel issues I would think long and hard about this. I would hate to make the switch and then have the Boston guy decide it's too far to really work.

The drummers gig performance sounds like jitters. Everything is different at a gig. Maybe he couldn't hear the other instruments/vocals very well. As a group you guys need to work together on visual connection.

Stick with the guy who's there every day. It sounds like he had an off night or a case of the jitters. Just remind him occasionally, "We repeat the chorus three times and then end it." We old guys have a hard time remembering sometimes and just need a little reminder.

"...we played 3 sets at a bar a few towns over...we rehearsed all day, and he sounded GREAT....."

Could he have been tired from all that playing? Rehearsing all day...and 3 sets is a lot - plus travel, loading and unloading, and setting up and tearing down - especially if one is not used to playing a lot or at gigs. Drumming is also very physical - with all four limbs being involved.

It takes being in a certain mental and physical shape to be able to play three sets a night.

Playing live means there are many more distractions than at rehearsal - crowds and dancers, cramped spaces, bar noise, less than ideal sound mix, attractive (and sometimes very friendly) members of the opposite sex, juggled song lists, being rushed by circumstances, missing verbal and visual cues, being approached by folks from the audience, bar fights, being hungry, etc. Also, one must conserve energy at a gig to be able to play all night.

In my experience, rehearsing right before a gig means a less than good performance. Also, relaxation as much as possible the day of a gig, especially a multi-set gig, and to have eaten, are important. This was true even during my 20s and 30s.

Give him some more chances - your post says he's a great guy and can play OK. That's a good thing. Sometimes compatability trumps ability. It may have been an off night.

Keep the advice coming guys, I appreciate it!
I'm just worried about having another bad night next weekend ya know?

The atmosphere definitely contributed. Horrible crowd, but then again it wasn't a hometown group like we are used to! Playing for one guy at the bar can be really easy, or really bad it seems.


I think you guys are right about the visual cues thing, we had to set up a little differently due to space constraints and that affected my playing I KNOW that...heres a picture just for the hell of it to show how semi-cramped it was.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/sekesguitarist/388781_10100470588274212_9120430_51885720_16048406 95_n.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/sekesguitarist/DSCN3691.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/sekesguitarist/409313_10150489869292427_500512426_8602342_2696929 04_n.jpg

First off, give up on this thought, people will always have hurt feelings no matter how well you do the leader job. No matter how much I suck I want to be in the band and I feel bad for myself when I can't.

The drummers gig performance sounds like jitters.

Very good point.

"...we played 3 sets at a bar a few towns over...we rehearsed all day, and he sounded GREAT....."

Could he have been tired from all that playing? Rehearsing all day...and 3 sets is a lot - plus travel, loading and unloading, and setting up and tearing down - especially if one is not used to playing a lot or at gigs. Drumming is also very physical - with all four limbs being involved.


That's exactly the point I was going to make. That sounds like a pretty heavy day - I'd be suprised if any of you were playing at your absolute best at the gig.

I wouldn't put a new band member (drummer or otherwise) in charge of ending songs. In your case, I'd have the bass player cue stops and endings.

Also, no matter how keen your old drummer is to drive long distances to gigs the novelty might wear off and if a local band needs a drummer he might still jump ship.

In your case, I'd have the bass player cue stops and endings.


Oops - just saw the pictures and I assume you are the bass player but maybe one of the guitar players could cue the drummer.

Oops - just saw the pictures and I assume you are the bass player but maybe one of the guitar players could cue the drummer.

I am the guitar player on the right...I usually try and cue him as much as I can, but with him being a lefty, he isn't looking in my direction as much as he should

WOW, I've been there and done that. In my last "commercial" band, I put myself in a position so every member could see me and hear me. I set the tempo, but after awhile, they just fell into sync. Give your drummer a bit of slack and maybe move to the other side so he can see your cues...you'll be fine.

I am the guitar player on the right...I usually try and cue him as much as I can, but with him being a lefty, he isn't looking in my direction as much as he should


Switch sides.

Yeah absolutely.As i play rhythm guitar in our band i always play on the right side of the drummer...so we can always work pretty well together.
And i know it´s hard to kick someone out, so think about it.Long terms.

Give him another chance!

Sounds to me like you brought in on yourselves, and you need to give the drummer some credit. You probably owe him an apology as well.

You do not rehearse the day of the gig! :shock:

You've already shown yourself why. IMHO -- If you have to rehearse the day of the gig, then you're not ready to gig.

Remember, drumming is a lot more physical than playing bass or guitar. I'm surprised he did it at all without saying something.

As i play rhythm guitar in our band i always play on the right side of the drummer...

Why would those two things be linked?

What is that monster Fender cab out front?

You mentioned the drummers age early on, he's 49 and the other drummer is 21 and fits in better...??? Is this the underlying issue ? Don't hide behind something else or you will really get into a bad moment of ZEN !

I am 30+ years older than the two brothers that front our band...I have been playing longer than they have been living...at my age..50+ I bring decades of experience and songs to the table, songs that many 21 year old's have never even heard of. Of course if you look at the band from the bar or dance floor you see young and old...but that's not what you hear...

So, is it about age or playing ability ? Or who fits in better. I can tell you this, an older established player is more likely to fit into a social band scenario long term over a young player. Criteria for a successful band = social connection first, music second. And of course music is all important or the player would not be there in the first place. That's a given. To assume that a 21 year old would fit in better may not be accurate because fit refers to social not the music. Now of course if the 49 year old drummer cannot cut the gig that's a whole different deal and in most probability has nothing to do with age.

Around the city I live in, the three most called on players to fill in with ANY band, ANY artist, are, as I refer to them " senior citizens" ! Great players, fit in any scenario and make everyone proud to have them on the bandstand.

so...??? is it "OUR OLD" drummer Brian or 21 year old Chris who fits in better ?

Discuss the situation with the drummer, I suspect he already knows he flubbed the gig..a band cannot have a drummer that flubs gigs no matter how old or young they are. Age is irrelevant .

t

Why would those two things be linked?

I always felt that i got better in visual contact with the drummer from this side....don´t know why....:oops::lol:

...we rehearsed all day, and he sounded GREAT. At the gig?


This is your problem right here.

When a band over rehearses, some players get bored.

An all day rehearsal on the day of a gig is never a good idea.

All the players in your group should know their parts cold, before you all even step into the same room together. If you don't, you're not only unprepared for rehearsal, you're unprepared to gig.

Drilling songs at rehearsal is a sure way to end a band prematurely. Especially on the day of a gig.

Drilling songs at rehearsal is a sure way to end a band prematurely. Especially on the day of a gig.

Sorry, my English is not that good:oops::oops:, what do you mean by this this....

When a band does "all day rehearsals" it usually means that they didin't learn the songs well before they came to rehearsal.

When a band has to play the songs many times, all day long, on the day of a gig, it makes them get tired of the songs. It takes away the energy.

If a band has to keep playing the songs over and over and over, they will get tired of the songs and the band will break up.

Thanks, Telenator!
You´re absolutely right!

Loyalty, dependablity, then abilty to do the job. Just like if you were hiring somebody for a job. Then you have to give them in return what motivates them.

You're begging trouble to have a band member that lives an hour or two from the gigs and everybody else in the band. Car expenses will hurt, car problems will get in the way. Anybody willing to give him a ride if he has car trouble? Use that Boston guy for fill ins, perfect for that.

Talk to the old guy about how that gig went. He knows it wasn't good. You have to find out why. If you can't talk to him about something like that, you are no leader. And if you kick him to the curb without talking about it first, what's that make you?

Don't think that this willbe the only "off Night" someone in the band is going to have! LOL
I've been gigging for over 40 years, you're NOT just going to have 1 off night. It's happened to me and to every band member I've ever played with. Missing chords, forgetting lyrics to songs you've done hundreds of times, missing a chorus, singing the wrong verse, on & on; nobody likes having an "off night" but it happens.
We started making it a part of the show, "hey I didn't know those notes were even on my guitar", etc. Now if things are bad all the time or on a regular basis, then there's a real problem. But I kept one of my bands together for 10 years; you can bet there was more than one incident of an off night!
Playing music is about enjoying what you do and having fun; if the guy gets along with everyone and does a good job otherwise, give it another chance. Jitters, nervous, off night, it'll probably work out if you let it.

[QUOTE=Joe-Bob;3817392]Sounds to
You do not rehearse the day of the gig! :shock:

You've already shown yourself why. IMHO -- If you have to rehearse the day of the gig, then you're not ready to gig. [QUOTE]

I very strongly agree. I won't do it ,call it superstitious or whatever You want but it is not just too physically /Mentally demanding .... Its also traditionally considered bad luck in Music And Theatre circles. I also get kinda nervous/ superstitious if the last practice before a Gig is NOT kinda terrible ......It has been My experience that if pre-gig rehearsal goes super smooth and sounds great ,the Gig does not go so well :oops: I don't know anything about Your situation other than what You posted of course , BUT My gut feeling is that if the 21 Year old was THE Guy ,He would still be in the Band . Good Luck ,I hope You Guys get it all straightened out. Have fun.

All very good comments.
That fender cab is one of our 4x12" Fender Speaker columns...sound pretty good for PA stuff.

I have to agree about rehearsing the day of taking away the steam from the gig that night, guess we learned our lesson on that one!
I guess the social aspect fits in a little bit with the drummer issue, but it isn't the WHOLE problem. Chris is more of a guy who "plays drums" while Brian is a "drummer" if you catch my drift.

An issue here which has come up before is whether or not Chris will be medically able to play with us multiple nights in a row, etc. He was in the hospital a couple of weeks ago for a pancreatic issue (he's a diabetic), and we had Brian fill in at the last second for him.

After some discussion and a lot of thought, it may have been some nerves, for ALL of us not just him. However, he seemed calm, EXCITED in fact, and pumped to be playing all night. He made some comments about blood sugar issues during the day, and I am seriously wondering if his blood sugar affected that evening.
I would like to add that my serious girlfriend is a diabetic, and we've dated for 4 years now, so I am really familiar with diabetes and all that.

If that was the case, we CAN'T place blame on him. All we can do is make sure he gets what he needs, and if he needs us to do something for him he asks us!

I would also like to add, that we have told him multiple times, if he is straining himself, or if playing a certain night won't be healthy not to worry about it, his health is much more important.
Just wanted to add this in case somebody wanted to suggest we are forcing him to play against his will :roll:

so...??? is it "OUR OLD" drummer Brian or 21 year old Chris who fits in better ?

Discuss the situation with the drummer, I suspect he already knows he flubbed the gig..a band cannot have a drummer that flubs gigs no matter how old or young they are. Age is irrelevant .

t

Ahh confusion here, it is Brian who is 21; he is our "OLD DRUMMER," as in he used to play with us. Not as in he is old :lol:

In you picture, I don't see any monitors. Monitor and sound setup is critical for for a band staying tight together. Who is driving the sound, drummer had got to be able to hear him and stay together. It is tough in a live situation, but some "method" has to be worked out to achieve all this consistently. Young bands are bad about setting up in a circle for a practice with all amps facing in so they can hear each other, then you get to a strange place with strange gear and no one can here each other. In most of the bands I have played in, it has been the bass (me) and the drums tight together that drove the beat. I have actually had good success either setting the bass amp way back and close to the drummer so he can hear me, or even setting up two amps, one out to the audience and a small bass amp as a personal monitor for the drummer.

You have to really look at the personal issues, if you really prefer the other drummer, end the relationship. You are not married.

Excellent Point regarding Monitors by Sam, We had a drummer that was slowing down then speeding up untill we put a Monitor with Acoustic and vocal up nice and loud and close to him, he was great after that.
Age often crops up, In my band the Age is from early 60`s to early 30`s ( i`m 2nd youngest at 49:oops: ) but audience don`t care long as the band look happy and enjoy playing together.
If you want your old mate back , get him back for right reasons.

cut this new guy loose so he can find a band of non-flakey grown ups.

Giving the drummer a monitor makes sense. Also, include visual cues to let him know that he is keeping the groove steady.
I agree that having a practice on the day of the gig is not the best idea; maybe the better approach would have been to sit down and go over the song list to make sure everybody is on the same page.

I also get kinda nervous/ superstitious if the last practice before a Gig is NOT kinda terrible ......It has been My experience that if pre-gig rehearsal goes super smooth and sounds great ,the Gig does not go so well

That's funny man, spot on. My band's best gigs have been after practices that have totally sucked. We don't even like rehearsing the day before gigs, need to get a bit of a buffer in there.

And it's true, same thing goes with cramming for a test, you have so much that you're telling yourself you need to remember that you end up forgetting most of it. And everyone has bad nights, especially the first time in a bar. Let it ride.

Giving the drummer a monitor makes sense. Also, include visual cues to let him know that he is keeping the groove steady.
I agree that having a practice on the day of the gig is not the best idea; maybe the better approach would have been to sit down and go over the song list to make sure everybody is on the same page.

Definitely this. Sit down with the set list and a guitar and the band instead of a full out rehearsal is probably very good advice.

Going to ask his opinion on having a monitor, think thats a good idea as well. That and the fatigue thing.
I'm not sure why some of you guys think I'm bashing people who are older than me, I know 65 year old guys who can run circles around me, and I'm not out of shape at ALL...

I think fatigue is the big thing here; having said that, it appears we have solved (as a band) the next weekend dilemma. 2 Gigs, one on friday in Chris's half of the state, the one on Saturday on the other side of the state, which is close by Brian.

Bam, Chris Friday night, Brian Saturday. This'll work out good, cause Chris's brother is in from Seattle visiting and it'll give him more time visiting less time schlepping gear.

Respectfully, it's irritating that someone here would assume that just because we are in our early 20's we are flaky. I mean, I am laid off for the winter, so this is my primary source of income. I can't take the chance of flaking out. Two of our other members have music performance degrees, and we all rely on this small amount of revenue to make ends meet with bills/rent/spending money. So...enough with that alright?


This is why I LOVE asking these questions on here; everyone has a different perspective and experience, its nice to hear all the different angles from people who have been here, helps put my thoughts in order! :cool:

I'd stick with him if he is putting in the work. If he just had an off night, or maybe couldn't hear everyone too well. You guys will get tighter the more you play. Some one (usually the singer) should give some hand signals or something to cue the end of a phrase, or the last measure of a song, etc.

He is 49, and the rest of us are 22-24 years old...we found him because he works with the keyboard player. He hadn't played out in bands since about 1982 until us, and has a great time doing it.

Well here is the issue; last night we played 3 sets at a bar a few towns over...we rehearsed all day, and he sounded GREAT. At the gig? He lagged, ended songs early, ended songs late, basically everything a drummer could do which would make you nervous. The place loved us, but I was mortified.




Dam, that makes ME tired thinking about it!! Dude is almost 50 and you guys worked out all day then played a 3 set bar gig that night? He was probably just gassed. If he is getting back into playing, maybe his stamina is not quite there yet.

We rehearsed 5 times last year, twice in November. :shock:
two up on 2010:cool:

Im glad all the replies have been in favor of your current drummer.

I drummed myself for several years about 7 years or so ago and I was 20ish... I couldn't then do an all day rehearsal and then land a gig...muscles cramp, backs get tired, wrists ache... I think in a band it helps people if they play more then their main instrument.. so they can get a taste of what it's like.

I also played Bass and now I can't manage more then 10 minutes without wrist ache. ha.

I feel nothing needs to be said to the drummer, if anything you probably need to commend him for the effort he's put in, age isn't a key factor but it's something to take into account.

In my HONEST and personal opinion after all the rehearsals and practice he's putting in especially with the live shows etc....I would be upset and offended you would even contemplate swapping me out for another guy.

I understand sometimes bands need to be bureaucratic but they also need to be a great partnership to make it through...and with to much bureaucracy you loose the passion.

I **** up live left, right and center, my Bass player gets tired after 2 sets and drop here and there and sometimes Sam gets a little tired or Jims voice breaks on the highs...these things happen...you live with them and the charm these things bring.

...I think this whole thing should of taught you a lesson......and perhaps you should be more open to the drummers side of things and perhaps give him the same courtesy he give you...or whomever it is that organizes day long rehearsals.

there's nobody to blame for the 'incident' it just happens, don't let it shake your confidence....you can find videos of some of the biggest acts in music make several **** ups on stage..

I reread this and it gives the impression im having a go, im really not just saying how I feel.

after all wouldn't it suck if you had a bad night and the band talked on an open forum about replacing you?

Also make sure your stage volume is consistent with your practice volume. People who have not played out in a lot of different venues in a long time have to get used to adjusting to different rooms and that only comes with doing it often.

If you keep your stage volume at a good level, and your amp/directional placement is logical & consistent from gig to gig, the drummer would only need a monitor for vocals.

Also a metronome with earphones is a great tool for drummers.

Was he drinking? Nobody plays anything good on booze.

If it's a fatigue issue, make sure he's eaten before the gig, and I'd also recommend liquid ionic trace minerals.

Is that Fender solid state cab in the front an amp or PA speaker? If it is and y'all were using it, then he probably couldn't hear it and I feel sorry for the people in front of it in the audience. That thing is way too big for a place like that.

Also, where are the PA mains and monitors? Whenever possible, always use your own PA, and put the mains on the backline so that everybody can hear the vocals! That's right, put them behind you. That way, not only do you hear the monitors, but most of what you hear is in balance to what the audience hears. The reason a lot of bands put them in front of them is they are too loud and EQ-challenged. Use directional mics like Shure 57's to reduce feedback. A decent EQ is very helpful. An example of an unpowered mixer with a decent EQ at a low price is the Allen and Heath http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ZEDSeries&ProductId=ZED12FXIf your vox feedback no matter what you do, your band is too loud.

Also try setting up on stage so that the drummer can see you better, and not your butt if possible. The players on the side can turn toward each other more, and pull back further. Everybody should be able to easily look at anybody else when they need to.

Just looking at the photos, unless you are incredibly judicial in your volume and stage dynamics, it looks like there might be too much equipment and power for the space you're playing in.

Just some quick thoughts, ymmv.

cut this new guy loose so he can find a band of non-flakey grown ups.

I gotta double up on this. Are you sure the drummer was the problem? Let me hep you to the real world of bands. If you start together and mostly end together and nobody gets hurt in the middle, that's a win. If you can't end together just tell folks you're a punk band. If you're so worried about his age being a problem then he won't be around long enough for you to worry about it and you can go back to your young old drummer. I think I saw something in your post about "people loved us". I would have ended my post right there:

We played the other day with a new drummer. People loved us. The end.

If you start together and mostly end together and nobody gets hurt in the middle, that's a win. If you can't end together just tell folks you're a punk band.

We played the other day with a new drummer. People loved us. The end.

This is good advice.

I took the time the last couple days to do everything to make sure I bring my "A game" this weekend. Re-string, set up my guitars, change batteries, tweak settings, go over songs. If everyone else takes the time to do the same, we should be great.

As others have said on here, I guess the more we play together the tighter we will become.

I guess the more we play together the tighter we will become.

I have spent a career proving that idea wrong.

.... I bring my "A game"

If everyone else takes the time to do the same, we should be great.

First half great, always do the best you can.

Second half be careful, this is where the finger pointing starts.

Here's a thought. Why don't you talk to Chris (current drummer) about it?

I think it was the old drummer who played everything perfect and all you young dudes got so nervous you forgot the arrangements and screwed up the endings!
:lol:
cymbol crash!

The real problem here is that you play ALL Tom Petty songs and he can't tell one ending from another.

ba-da -bing!

(just kidding)...

Spirit had an old guy for a drummer and he was awesome...so it goes to show that old drummers CAN do it. Sit down with the guy and explain your concerns to him. At his age he should have the maturity to listen and understand and then adjust his playing as needed or give up the seat to another drummer.

Here's a thought. Why don't you talk to Chris (current drummer) about it?

If everybody did something logical like that this forum would collapse from inactivity. Better to get advice from complete strangers. What were you thinking?

If everybody did something logical like that this forum would collapse from inactivity. Better to get advice from complete strangers. What were you thinking?

:roll:

Thanks everyone for turning so cynical. I enjoyed discussing all this with you but I guess the honeymoons over.

Oh come on - that's funny ... and dead on it in regard to this whole internet forum thingy.

^^^^ yes always take forum advice for what its worth, usually free, and you get what what you pay for. But this bit here is priceless IMO:

"people loved us"

It's taken me a long time to realize this is what matters in playing out. I have fun now and worry less about the other stuff.

Oh come on - that's funny ... and dead on it in regard to this whole internet forum thingy.

I'm not sure when, why or how it happened but it's now called the interweb. And yeah, I'm the old guy in that burger commercial that hollers "why they gotta change stuff?"

And yeah, I'm the old guy in that burger commercial that hollers "why they gotta change stuff?"

Myself as well:lol:


"people loved us"

It's taken me a long time to realize this is what matters in playing out. I have fun now and worry less about the other stuff.

I always have to tell myself this, and its what really matter in the end. HOWEVER, I find if I'm not having fun, I don't enjoy the performance ya know?
But I mean, I've been places and rocked the HELL out of them to cactus songs and even super session covers...and gotten blank stares from the audience, so what you're saying really IS what it boils down to!


FWIW everyone, we talked at rehearsal last night about everything, and without mentioning it Chris said how tired he was that night because of all the playing/not eating...so there ya go I guess! Lesson learned about day of gig rehearsal!


In regards to the discussion about the gear being too much, many people that night told us we were the perfect volume/mix. We have bigger gear yes, but there IS a volume knob on all of our stuff.:wink:..we don't have the $$$$ to buy 2 PA systems one big one small, etc.

We use the same gear for big or large room....small room? Turn the knob to 2. Big room? turn the knob to 5

Why not play the gig with both drummers? I
Played in a band with 2 drummers, one much better than the other, and the better one helped the other keep it together plus it challenged the other to play better and it sounded really cool! Then you can all get a feel for what you want and make a decision, maybe alternate or keep one as you backup.

Dave, two words come to mind: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH and AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH