A guitar player no no (in my book)

Saw my friends cover band for the first time the other day. Super tight, male and female lead vocals, 2 other backing vocals, and even a sax player.

The one turn off was their guitar players constant overdriven Marshall/Van Halen like tone for every song! Every song! Whether Motown, pop, R&B, whatever it was always the big rock guitar. And I see this all the time. Can someone explain to me the need for some guitarists to "rock up" every song?

Vol control on guitar broke and stuck on 13 ?? ;)

Cause they don't know how to play

That´s the thing i sometimes try to explain my bandmates...play with more dynamic instead of using overdriven tones...

Enough overdrive will pave right over most mistakes. Some people like to have that crutch to count on?

A few weeks ago i´ve been to a Fleet Foxes concert and i still can´t believe how great the show was....without using any dirt boxes...not one second...or one note.

I mean, I don't mind f you're playing a rock song, but I don't need to hear malmsteens interpretation of Get Ready by the Temp's.

Well, if you can't play good, at least you kin play LOUD. :wink:

I carry two guitars and have about 8 pedals on my pedal board that I use sparingly, and to good effect.

The "guitar + cord + amp" people like to scoff at my set-up but guess what? I always have the appropriate tone for whatever song I'm playing.

But the best part is, the audience doesn't get worn down hearing the same frickin' guitar tone all night long.

I don't care how good anyone's tone is. If it hasn't changed and you're more than 5 songs into it, I'm bored.

Saw my friends cover band for the first time the other day. Super tight, male and female lead vocals, 2 other backing vocals, and even a sax player.

The one turn off was their guitar players constant overdriven Marshall/Van Halen like tone for every song! Every song! Whether Motown, pop, R&B, whatever it was always the big rock guitar. And I see this all the time. Can someone explain to me the need for some guitarists to "rock up" every song?

Guys like that need to be a sound guy for 6 months of weekends.
Maybe, just maybe they will see why.

What Joe-Bob said.....

I carry two guitars and have about 8 pedals on my pedal board that I use sparingly, and to good effect.

The "guitar + cord + amp" people like to scoff at my set-up but guess what? I always have the appropriate tone for whatever song I'm playing.

But the best part is, the audience doesn't get worn down hearing the same frickin' guitar tone all night long.

I don't care how good anyone's tone is. If it hasn't changed and you're more than 5 songs into it, I'm bored.


+1 Exactly! Having only one tone would be like an artist having only one color of paint to use.

And when that one tone is only black, er loud screaming rock guitar.. well, it gets old after awhile.

I carry two guitars and have about 8 pedals on my pedal board that I use sparingly, and to good effect.

The "guitar + cord + amp" people like to scoff at my set-up but guess what? I always have the appropriate tone for whatever song I'm playing.

But the best part is, the audience doesn't get worn down hearing the same frickin' guitar tone all night long.

I don't care how good anyone's tone is. If it hasn't changed and you're more than 5 songs into it, I'm bored.

I totally know what you mean, but isn't it nice to get several sounds out of less pedals and different guitars?
I mean with a Telecaster for example, a delay - and OD pedal i can get a hell of different sounds....:wink:

Enough overdrive will pave right over most mistakes. Some people like to have that crutch to count on?

This is the first thing that came to my mind too.

I carry two guitars and have about 8 pedals on my pedal board that I use sparingly, and to good effect.

The "guitar + cord + amp" people like to scoff at my set-up but guess what? I always have the appropriate tone for whatever song I'm playing.

But the best part is, the audience doesn't get worn down hearing the same frickin' guitar tone all night long.

I don't care how good anyone's tone is. If it hasn't changed and you're more than 5 songs into it, I'm bored.

The audience doesn't care, as long as the sound isn't grating, or out of place, like in the OP. Only a guitarist would think that people will get bored from hearing one tone all night. Look at acoustic players, or horn players, etc., they have one tone too. Most of my favorite players use one basic tone and I never get bored as long as the playing is good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm like you in that I do use a few pedals - sparingly - but that's mainly because my band does a wide variety of stuff.

Funny thing regarding the OP - a new drummer joined my band and he keeps commenting about how much he likes my clean-toned playing because in his last band both guitar players used an overly distorted sound for every song. He likes that he can hear the actual notes coming out of my guitar.

I disagree that "the audience doesn't care."

Music is one of those things that hits a person, especially non-musicians, on a more subliminal level.

Very often, they don't know exactly why they like a band a lot, they just know somehow that they do.

If the players are all sensitive to producing great sounds and proper dynamics, the unsuspecting, non-musician listener bumps up from merely "liking" the band to, absolutely loving the band's sound.

Good tones and great dynamics are what take a good band, and elevate them to a pro band.

I disagree that "the audience doesn't care."

Music is one of those things that hits a person, especially non-musicians, on a more subliminal level.

Very often, they don't know exactly why they like a band a lot, they just know somehow that they do.

If the players are all sensitive to producing great sounds and proper dynamics, the unsuspecting, non-musician listener bumps up from merely "liking" the band to, absolutely loving the band's sound.

Good tones and great dynamics are what take a good band, and elevate them to a pro band.

Agree with music hitting on a subliminal level - the audience responds to the whole package but doesn't necessarily know why.

But I don't think we (as guitar players) have to change our sounds to keep the audience from getting bored. The band needs to keep the audience from getting bored - changing tempos, moods, dynamics, etc. - the guitar sounds are way down the list, IMO. As an extreme example, I can listen to Coltrane all day long and he didn't change his sound with effects.

Not to say that certain songs and moods don't call for different sounds through effects (ie. a fuzzed out, tremoloed sound), but if that's all a player's got, then they are simply using effects as a crutch. Think of the guy that hits a wah pedal every other solo while still playing the same licks over and over.

Personally I'd rather hear great music played with the same sound all night than different effects constantly coming and going (except for U2, but I love their songs).

I think we're talking about exactly the same thing and simply experiencing the limitations of plain text communication.

It's really good to see that others feel it's important to change things up during the course of the evening.

i'll this one up as, we agree, as best we can under the circumstances. LOL!

The audience doesn't care, as long as the sound isn't grating, or out of place, like in the OP. Only a guitarist would think that people will get bored from hearing one tone all night.

+1

My thoughts exactly.

That's what the tone knob is for ........ :wink:

I carry two guitars and have about 8 pedals on my pedal board that I use sparingly, and to good effect.

The "guitar + cord + amp" people like to scoff at my set-up but guess what? I always have the appropriate tone for whatever song I'm playing.

But the best part is, the audience doesn't get worn down hearing the same frickin' guitar tone all night long.

I don't care how good anyone's tone is. If it hasn't changed and you're more than 5 songs into it, I'm bored.

= +42

I think it was Joe Pass said that, if you play two consecutive tunes in the key of A then the audience falls asleep, if you play three tunes in A then the band falls asleep.

i.e. the concept of varying your sound throughout the show has been around for a long time now.

Yes, I have fallen asleep during a show because they kept playing the "same" tune.

= +42

I think it was Joe Pass said that, if you play two consecutive tunes in the key of A then the audience falls asleep, if you play three tunes in A then the band falls asleep.

i.e. the concept of varying your sound throughout the show has been around for a long time now.

Yes, I have fallen asleep during a show because they kept playing the "same" tune.

Funny. I used to really try to avoid playing consecutive songs in the same key - we play in a three piece blues group - but the guys I'm playing with (more seasoned than I) told me to forget about it.

"Don't worry about it. The audience doesn't know the difference. Play your song."

Two or three tunes in the same key you could probably get away with. More than that (especially in a blues group) and it IS the same song over and over.

I agree with Tele-Monster. I once saw a friend's metal band attempt a country song...the guitar player wouldn't tun off his "Eddie pedal". Awful!!:sad:

I'll be contrarian and say maybe it's what the band wants from him - ?
You say the band is tight, which I'll assume translates to good. Ask your buddy why the guitar player plays everything overdriven.

I personally have been in situations where, as the guitar player, I was expressly told to rock it up. Most of the time, this was against my better judgement.

The one turn off was their guitar players constant overdriven Marshall/Van Halen like tone for every song! Every song! Whether Motown, pop, R&B, whatever it was always the big rock guitar. And I see this all the time. Can someone explain to me the need for some guitarists to "rock up" every song?

I think it's a little thing called "taste" or the lack thereof. Also, heavy overdrive is a great way to cover up lousy technique. Sounds like a winning combination.

Inexperience? Could be he/she just doesn't know. Somebody tell them.

Inexperience? Could be he/she just doesn't know. Somebody tell them.

In my experience that doesn't work. Ever. Inevitably the response will be to "kill the messenger". :mad:

Saw my friends cover band for the first time the other day. Super tight, male and female lead vocals, 2 other backing vocals, and even a sax player.

The one turn off was their guitar players constant overdriven Marshall/Van Halen like tone for every song! Every song! Whether Motown, pop, R&B, whatever it was always the big rock guitar. And I see this all the time. Can someone explain to me the need for some guitarists to "rock up" every song?

I played in a band years ago with a lead guitar player who did THE SAME THING!! 9 piece band with a horn section that played funk, soul, r & b, and classic rock, BUT EVERY SONG WAS HORRIBLY OVERDRIVEN!!! Our first bass player quick over the issue, and almost came to blows in the middle of the street after practice one night with the lead guitar player!!! Eventually I left, and shortly after the band broke up all together because nearly everyone had issues with the lead guitar player, and his tone was the least of the problems!!

If it continues either dump the player or leave the band. You shouldn't have to put up with someone so musically out to lunch.

I know this doesn't pertain to any TDPRI'ers, but a lot of rock n roll guitarist, and bass players do not have any background playing in organized music. They sit in their bedroom learning to play the songs they like. Many of these people have great musical skill, but they don't know the first thing about serving the song and the band. A lot of keyboard players are not far off from this but their instrument doesn't seem to dominate like guitar.

All the players of classic band instruments, trumpet, saxophone, etc... learned right from the start in a band environment. They learned to play their part, the way the song writer intended the part to sound. They also learned to arrive on time, not play during breaks, how to use dynamics, how to not just diddle over every open space and most of the crowded ones.

The greatest advice I ever received was from a producer very early in my playing.
He said, "If you listen to the majority of guitar work on records the guitar is usually
clean. Almost every solo that is memorable is clean."

I would guess that the player is very inexperienced and is living out a Van Halen delusion.

Many of these people have great musical skill, but they don't know the first thing about serving the song and the band.

Therefore, IMO, they are lacking the most important musical skill.

Audiences care about rhythm.

You can play fast or slow, clean or overdriven but the audience basically cares if you're making sense with your right hand. This is true both for your rhythm and lead playing.

Jimmy Page basically played the same sound all night as does Jimmy Vaughn and SRV (one clean and one dirty). Roy Buchanan played one sound as did Danny Gatton.

It's not about the tone. It's not about the amount of clean or drive.

It's about rhythm.

Unless you're playing for other guitar players and then your screwed anyway.

I do sound for a band in South Florida, and the only pedals the guitarists have are tuners...... they tune before sound check and then at set break..... beyond that, they take the time to listen to what the BAND is playing

On the other hand, i also worked for some guys who had every doo-dad and would NEVER overuse the equipment.... if the song didn't call for it, they didn't use it.... now there were nights that they would preset the other guys' gear to something really awful (just for S-N-G's) but that usually only lasted a few notes

Therefore, IMO, they are lacking the most important musical skill.

Indeed. Music is a group activity if there ever was one.



Sure...you can play alone all your life. You might even be a fine solo artist, but you're missing such a large part of what music really is.

Well, if you can't play good, at least you kin play LOUD. :wink:

+1

Cause they don't know how to play

Yep. Neil knows...:cool:

Overdrive does cover a lot of mistakes, and I feel it gives a fake confidence in their playing. I like tweeking a lot for a nice crunchy...im muchly in love with the crunch but will back it down for ska 2 tone based tunes...but were a punk band so I get away with sloppy playing and OD hahaha.

However if im playing a freezing cold outside gig the gain gets maximised and a pedal gets stomped on.
If you feel you need a versatile guitar player...talk to him about it...but don't undermined his confidence or playing...just say what you think.

I try to change my tone at least slightly from song to song. Sometimes a little more or a little less of this or that if the songs are closely related, or sometimes gobs more of something if the song demands it.

Within a song I will change tone depending on the arrangement. Tone may vary according to intro, fills, solos, verse, chorus, or maybe not. Moderation works for me most of the time.

The one tone player is boring at best, irritating at worst. Luckily, my current band, for all our weaknesses, can talk to each other about this stuff. We're old and mature enough to get over ourselves and respectfully accept creative and constructive criticism from each other. That relationship works well.

I mean, I don't mind f you're playing a rock song, but I don't need to hear malmsteens interpretation of Get Ready by the Temp's.

People who only know one way to solo, I guess? Or can't solo unless they have "that tone"?

Although I'm curious (not to bust your balls, I'm honestly curious) would you feel the same way about someone who used a mellow, bluesy tone on a Van Halen cover? That might tell you whether it's the tone discrepancy or the playing that really bugs you.

I disagree that "the audience doesn't care."



The Audience won't care until you give them a reason to care.
How we make them care is what separates the Men from the boys.

~ Cheers

reason #1 - `I love blueshammer - they`re SO authentic`

Two - I see this as the difference between tdpri and it`s les paul counterpart
-It`s `DUDE!` everything over there!

Tasteful and appropriate use of effects, YES!!! (Geez, I sound like Miss Manners!)

Key and tempo changes on every song YES!!! (and I lead a 3 piece blues band, we make a point of it!)

Same tone all night-NO!!! I, mean, I CAN do it (and have done it, many times) but I do like to add effects when needed... think of it as cooking, and the effects are herbs and spices-don't need much to go a long ways in a dish, and not all spices are correct for all foods... sub "effects" for spices and "songs" for food, and you'll get my point. I'd say Mr. Van Hamster in the OP's band must like a LOT of jalepenos... :lol:

Franc Robert

OP here. Just to clear things up. The guitarist is not from my band, it's from my friends band that I went to see.

Also, one of the best concerts I've ever seem was George Benson, and he had the same jazz guitar tone all night. But for his music, it works. If you're a variety cover band, and you're going to stick with just one tone, I would definitely prefer clean.

To many effects aren't for me I use two, a clean boost and a mucho boosto..thats it before these two (which I just got in may) I only used a TS9 tube screamer and that was it..Clean or screamer.. but that doesn't give you one tone that gives tonnes of tones.. with volume,attack,switch selection..even if the tone is clean if it is two processed I don't really like it..I have never worried about the other guitar player because the only other guitar thats has ever been in my band is a pedal steel..

How do you get lead guitarists to turn down the volume?




Put some sheet music in front of them. Hee hee.

I find it interesting that so many here think a lot of gain can cover up mistakes or bad technique. I've never found that to be the case at all. I have found that most people who think that way have never really tried the high gain thing.

I can't do it. I sound like a steaming pile of poo with a high gain setup. It's extremely hard to control and sound good on one for me. Playing clean, or with mild-medium crunch or overdrive I'm good to go, but that high-gain stuff I sound awful. I love listening to a player who can really do it, but I don't have the technique to handle it.

If you haven't spent a lot of time playing in a really high gain situation, you should. It's anything but easy, and can't be pulled off with lousy technique. When you half-ass stuff at really high gain, every little thing sticks out like a sore thumb. For me it's WAY harder than playing clean.

I was hosting a multi-band jam party, and the guest guitarists were using my amp and stomp box setup. I have single unit DOD XP500 with a wide variety of effects/tones programmed in.

One of the younger bands played, and although very tight and talented, had the same overdrive all the time symptom. The guitarist asked me for my dirtiest channel, and that's all he played.

When my band got up, of course playing though my Tele, we did a variety of stuff, from country, to southern, to ZZ Top, etc. The previous guitar guy commented on how wonderful my Tele sounded, and why he didn't/couldn't sound that way. I tried to discuss the concept of dynamics, but I think it was lost on him. Full blown, pedal to the metal, all out, was all he could think of.

I think part of it comes from the variety. The switch between a mellower rhythm tone (as appropriate for the song) and then a crunchier (OMG did I just say that?) tone for lead can make the solos stand out. But on some stuff just a small bit of overdrive and a compressor can make that Tele really sing.

I think that's what impressed him, was that he could actually hear and distinguish what I was playing. Maybe it's the "Tele highlights your mistakes" kind of thing - I know when I'm playing clean and loud through my Tele that you'll hear it all, the good the bad and the ugly. You try harder to keep it mostly on the good.

I'm a bit like Jakedog, I don't really care to play with super high gain. Maybe it's just a difference in style and technique, but when I have the gain cranked up too much (which I occasionally do just for kicks), it just doesn't feel or sound right.

Cheers,
Doug

I know this doesn't pertain to any TDPRI'ers, but a lot of rock n roll guitarist, and bass players do not have any background playing in organized music. They sit in their bedroom learning to play the songs they like. Many of these people have great musical skill, but they don't know the first thing about serving the song and the band. A lot of keyboard players are not far off from this but their instrument doesn't seem to dominate like guitar.

All the players of classic band instruments, trumpet, saxophone, etc... learned right from the start in a band environment. They learned to play their part, the way the song writer intended the part to sound. They also learned to arrive on time, not play during breaks, how to use dynamics, how to not just diddle over every open space and most of the crowded ones.

I know someone that is a great player and can listen to something and mimic it very quickly. He's a shredder, not my cup of tea, but a good player nonethe less. His problem is he thinks the song IS the guitar solo, and everything else is just harmony to his playing. If you asked him to play along with someone, rythm only, he could'nt carry a tune in a bucket!!! He'd just stand there looking stupid, HE has to be the center of the attention so he plays louder and faster than everyone else. To bad he doesn't listen to the music as a whole , he just wants to play it his way. To bad!!!

I'm still of the opinion that it just might have been (I say 'might be') the band that requested him to rock it up. It happens all the time - generally NOT to good effect but nobody's ever accused musicians of having good taste:wink:.

*and as far as high gain covering up mistakes, I'm with Jakedog - No, not really.

I'm still of the opinion that it just might have been (I say 'might be') the band that requested him to rock it up. It happens all the time - generally NOT to good effect but nobody's ever accused musicians of having good taste:wink:.

*and as far as high gain covering up mistakes, I'm with Jakedog - No, not really.

possibly...I asked my friend the bass player about dudes guitar tone, and he just kind of rolled his eyes :roll:

I am definitely anti "rocking stuff up". I love the smooth glassy tones of a clean tele, strat, or semi hollow.

The thing I notice with high gain tone (like Van Halen) is that anything other than single note leads sound like mush. R&B music has a lot of 4ths, minor 7ths, minor 9ths and such. Doing that with distortion just sounds like noise.

Me too.
The only reason I ask that is that you mention that the band is good, which implies that they 'know what's up' ... so why do they settle for that? Is the guitar player the leader? That would explain a lot.

not sure...didn't seem like the leader musically at least. Maybe they rehearse at his house, and he owns all the sound equipment...Maybe he plays for free. Maybe he's best friends with the guys. Lots of possibilities.

The one good thing is that he was turned down enough where it just blended in, not over powering anything. If you were dancing with a floozie, you didn't even notice it.

Vol control on guitar broke and stuck on 13 ?? ;)

Good one!

- Jagg

I don't care how good anyone's tone is. If it hasn't changed and you're more than 5 songs into it, I'm bored.

Seriously?

You have this view for acoustic instrument players too?

Get bored of trumpet or violin tone? Or piano tone? Needs some wah here and some delay there eh?

I'll be contrarian and say maybe it's what the band wants from him - ?
You say the band is tight, which I'll assume translates to good. Ask your buddy why the guitar player plays everything overdriven.

I personally have been in situations where, as the guitar player, I was expressly told to rock it up. Most of the time, this was against my better judgement.

this.

it may be what they are after...

I heard today that Van Halen was going to have Kool and the Gang open for them on the next tour... it may be the new kitsch cool...

not sure...didn't seem like the leader musically at least. Maybe they rehearse at his house, and he owns all the sound equipment...Maybe he plays for free. Maybe he's best friends with the guys. Lots of possibilities.

The one good thing is that he was turned down enough where it just blended in, not over powering anything. If you were dancing with a floozie, you didn't even notice it.

so, we can assume you were not dancing then.:mrgreen::mrgreen: