Intonation Problems

I have 2 Teles a 72 Thinline and a 62 Reissue. Both have intonation problems on the Low E String. I have adjusted the saddles back as far as they will go and both are still sharp on the 12th fret. Any ideas what's wrong ?

We need to know more before we can help.

Steps to intonate:


Fresh strings
Adjust truss rod so neck is as straight as possible
Adjust action at bridge and nut
Set intonation


Did you do the first 3?

Are the other strings intonation correctly set?
How high is the action?

The nut adjusts intonation and action over frets ~ 1-7
The truss rod adjusts action over frets ~ 5-14
The saddles (& neck shim) adjust intonation and action over frets ~ 12-22

If the action is too high then the string stretches as it is fretted and pulls sharp.

You can only adjust intonation after the action is correctly set by nut, truss rod and saddle height.
If the nut slot is too shallow then you will never get the intonation at the 12th because action is too high.

You really can only set intonation using an accurate tuner such as a Peterson set to chromatic, even then it is a compromise. Do not only use the 12th fret but (e.g.) 10th, 15th and 17th too.

We need to know more before we can help.

Steps to intonate:


Fresh strings
Adjust truss rod so neck is as straight as possible
Adjust action at bridge and nut
Set intonation


Did you do the first 3?

Yes first 3 are done.
Fresh strings
Neck is straight
Action @ bridge. ( not sure how to adjust the nut.
All other strings are right on with no intonation problems.
Low E is sharp all over the board. Open string shows in tune with 2 different tuners.
Action is low with no Buzzing.

Back all the saddles towards the butt of the guitar before you put the new strings on so the strings don't get bent if you need to back them up. If you move the saddles forward to start your intonation then the bend won't effect the strings. That way the only way to get the string to intonate is to move them forward. Make sense?

The strings aren't bent. They were changed one at a time. 5 of the 6 strings intonate perfectly. It's only the low E that's harp.

The strings aren't bent. They were changed one at a time. 5 of the 6 strings intonate perfectly. It's only the low E that's harp.

When you changed strings was the saddle for the low E back as far as it will go? or did you move the saddle back after you changed strings and tuned it to pitch E?

When you put on new strings and tune to pitch they get bent on the saddle(s). They may not look like it till you take them off.

I'll stay off of this thread and let the pros have it.

No I didn't back the saddles up.

When you changed strings was the saddle for the low E back as far as it will go? or did you move the saddle back after you changed strings and tuned it to pitch E?

When you put on new strings and tune to pitch they get bent on the saddle(s). They may not look like it till you take them off.

I'll stay off of this thread and let the pros have it.

You have a point there, and the 6th is the one string that is thick enough that the tension won't pull a kink out. But this can be ironed out by rubbing a steel rod (e.g. a biggish drill shank) over the kink up the string into the saddle.

I do however find it odd that all the other strings intonate except the 6th.
How far back is the saddle on the 5th A string? :?:
- this should be the second longest
Can you post up a pic of the saddles from straight down from above so we caqn see the problem? :?:

Re the nut - nuts are adjusted with nut files. Nut files are expensive. Not difficult to do but there is a learning curve. If you have but the one guitar then it is probably a job for the guitar technician. All new nuts on new guitars have the slots cut too shallow - they don't know what strings you're going to fit, and you can only file material off, this leads to the strings pulling-sharp over the first few frets (especially 1st).
Can you post up a pic of the nut from the bass side so we can see the gap over the 1st fret? :?:

Are you intonating to a harmonic, or a fretted note?

I have nut files but am not sure how the nut should be cut. I am intonating to a fretted note.

You're on the front pickup, with the tone rolled off, right? The guitar isn't being supported under the neck? Fretting pressure isn't shifting or bowing the neck?

If you tune the E to pitch, and play the heck out of it, does it(the open E) return to pitch? If not, it's binding in the nut or saddle.

Try cranking the E saddle way down, and reintonate (even if it buzzes a little). If it helps, you may need to add a little relief to the neck, or shim the peghead end of the neck pocket and compensate by lowering the saddles.

I also wonder about your tuners. Do you know someone with a strobe tuner? I'd just about bet a strobe tuner will show a very different - and more accurate - result.

Sounds like Stratitus to me...... the magnets in the pup is causing the string to vibrate in an asymmetrical wave.... lower the pickups.... intonate then raise them... checking..... particularly the Loe E at the 12 th fret....


also do not support the neck on a work bench with a block at the nut.... that causes the neck to bow slightly screwing with ya......

Ron Kirn

One bad E string ?

Cut the spring so the saddle will go back even further.
Or... does the the string really have to intonate correctly. (How high up the neck do you actually play string 6?)

I am using a snark clip on tuner. I have checked 4 other guitars 2 tels a strat and a jazzmaster and they have no problems.

What Brand of String ?

I am using a snark clip on tuner. I have checked 4 other guitars 2 tels a strat and a jazzmaster and they have no problems.

I wouldn't attach too much significance to the fact that some other guitar doesn't have the problem.

First off you need to place the saddles @25.5. Then check where you're at. Move as necessary. E/A will go back a little. D/G will go back a little less. B/E could stay here it is.

That happened to me once, too. At that time I didn't know enough to figure out that it could be other factors, I figured it was the guitar. I suggest changing the low E string and trying it again. You could simply have a bad string. Snarks are great; I have four of them, but a strobe tuner will be a little more accurate for intonation work. I have a Planet Waves strobe which I use for intonation because I can't afford a Peterson.

I agree with Ron K., try lowering the pickups. It's quite common with Fender guitars and basses, and shows up mostly on the low string(s). If the pickup is too close it will affect the strings natural vibration and cause intonation issues. Easy enough to do.

The takeoff point for the string could be on the back edge of the nut (the tuner side)
instead of the front (the fretboard side). That would make the open string relatively
long and flat in relation to the fretted notes. Which makes the fretted notes relatively
sharp.

One way to check for a bad string, compare open string to 12th fret harmonic. If they
are in tune with each other, string is probably good.

This is going to boil down to a few things. First, you need to be certain that your nut slot is correctly shaped and holding the string @ the correct height above the first fret with a proper angle towards its´ tuner. Next, be certain that the pickups are adjusted farther than normal away from the strings. (1/8 in./3mm using the last fret method) Also be aware that you must use a known good string. Adjust the intonation from flat to correct by moving the saddle forward - never backward. Lastly, do not use a clip on tuner - some instruments have internal resonances that will confuse the tuner and give you incorrect readings. Use either the neck pickup through a cable or the microphone on a tuner capable of sensing and displaying accuracy of 1 cent or better. Obviously, the microphone works best with an electric through an amp :grin::idea:

May the 4th be with you . . . .

I am using Ddarrio strings. Will try all the suggestions 1 @ a time

I had the same problem a few weeks ago, and tried everything except for replacing the fresh strings with yet another fresh set.

It turned out it was a bum low E string, even though it was fresh out of the pack.

Swapped it out for another one, and all the intonation problems went away immediately.

I learned something new that day....

I had the same problem a few weeks ago, and tried everything except for replacing the fresh strings with yet another fresh set.

It turned out it was a bum low E string, even though it was fresh out of the pack.

Swapped it out for another one, and all the intonation problems went away immediately.

I learned something new that day....

This would be my advice too along with Ron's suggestion to lower the pickups.

I am using Ddarrio strings. Will try all the suggestions 1 @ a time

That's the exact reason I quit using them in my Shop, but some Customers

still insist on them, and I'll let them supply em....but have always noticed

intonation problems w/ XL series.

I have nut files but am not sure how the nut should be cut. I am intonating to a fretted note.

Get six spare replacement nuts. If this is your first go, you will mess up, been there. Do not be afraid.

Imo real bone is easiest to work, but plastics types like Tusq (loaded plastic) synthetic bone have pre-cut slots correctly spaced ready for filing

There are many threads on here on cutting and filing nuts.

The strings need to clear the first fret by just a little more than they clear the second fret when fretted at the first fret.

The slot needs to be clean and smooth, it is angled down towards the headstock but in such a way that the string lies on the bottom of the groove its entire length, otherwise they make wolf tones.

Adjustment - file the nut with the strings on at concert, lift each string out of its slot and move to the side. Couple or three goes with the files and try-fit the string, often.

Truss rod - capo on first and fret at last, you should just see daylight under the middle of the string.

Saddle height - lower and play frets from 12 to 22, adjust for no buzzing.
You can use nut files on saddles too, to adjust their grooves.

I am using a snark clip on tuner. I have checked 4 other guitars 2 tels a strat and a jazzmaster and they have no problems.

I have three clip-on tuners and they're fine for stage tuning. But for intonation you really do need a good strobe tuner. It is accuracy and repeatability you need, not resolution.

Unfortunately strobe tuners aren't cheap.

Now some strobe tuners have greater resolution than the Peterson, this is just more decimal places, but which some claim as greater accuracy. Do read the small print in the specifications.

I have a calibrated thermometer at work with a resolution of 0.1°C, but accuracy to within +/-1°C (and a stated uncertainty of something-or-other). See what I mean...

I have three clip-on tuners and they're fine for stage tuning. But for intonation you really do need a good strobe tuner. It is accuracy and repeatability you need, not resolution.

Unfortunately strobe tuners aren't cheap.

Now some strobe tuners have greater resolution than the Peterson, this is just more decimal places, but which some claim as greater accuracy. Do read the small print in the specifications.

I have a calibrated thermometer at work with a resolution of 0.1°C, but accuracy to within +/-1°C (and a stated uncertainty of something-or-other). See what I mean... I couldn't agree more, and found a relatively cost-effective alternative to the Peterson strobe tuner with our sacrificing any accuracy - the Sonic Research Turbo Tuner:

http://www.turbo-tuner.com/

There are few bits of gear that I can honestly say is more than I'll ever need in terms of accuracy, functionality and dependability, and this is one of them. It truly is on a par with the Peterson imho.

I measured from the nut to the 12 fet and it measured 12 inches on both guitars. The distance from the inside of the nut to the front of the first saddle on both guitars measures 25 1/2 inches. Should I now back up the first saddle ad start from there?

I am a little confused by your measurements. The saddle for the first string should be very close to 25.5 in. The others will all be further away than that with the 6th string being the farthest from the nut.

Like so for a 3 saddle
http://www.classicacafe.com/images/customer-files/6in52TeleBridge.gif

And like this on a 6 saddle
http://www.callahamguitars.com/sd_as_a.jpg

yes that is what they look like except both guitars have 6 saddles

Removed the string, backed the saddle up all the way, fles the nut slightly towars the headstock, put on a new Markley #46, stretched it, tuned it and now it works perfectly. ( both guitars) thanks for all the advice.