How do you push band members?

I started jamming with a drummer I met at work about a year ago. We've been playing together about 2-3 times a week for 18 months or so. We have become good friends during that time and we are finally to the point where we can kind of read each other. It's just him (drums) and me playing guitar.

However, that being said, when we started I felt like he was a much better player than I was. I had a hard time keeping up with him. I play hours every day, and have progressed quite a bit in that time. He hasn't really. How can I get him to step it up without seeming like a jerk?

I'm 38 and he's 25, so that causes quite an interesting musical interest gap, but when it works, it works. I wonder if bringing in someone else would help, or something else? Not ready to throw in the towel yet...

Britt

So, what you are saying is you are progressing but he is not? Have you thought about adding a bass player to this mix? Plus maybe even a lead or rhythm player? You'd be surprised in the difference a really good bass player can do for a drummer (having been a drummer myself).

If he's a friend why not sit down one night and talk to him about it? Maybe his time is tied up and he doesn't get much home practice?

Another thing is he could be losing interest...kind of hard to be excited about a guitarist and drummer jamming all the time.

I know this is probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's what I'm hearing. Good Luck!

As a friend, you have to give him a reason to improve on your terms.

Right now he doesn't think he needs to. He doesn't understand what you want him to do or, how to do it.

I advise not burning a bridge if you can help it.

No, I've wondered if bringing someone else in would help us both. I wouldn't get offended at any reply, I've never done a band type thing before so I'm open to ideas.

I think maybe he's bored with it. Maybe a bass player is exactly what we need.

It sounds cliche but there won't be any lasting progress for your friend unless he has the desire to do it. Maybe he just doesn't.

I think most good musicians don't have to be pushed by others (with the exception of little kids who are forced by their parents to become virtuosos).

yep, bass. Is one of you singing?

Organise a gig. There's nothing like an upcoming performance to focus your musical ambitions. Even suggesting this may help everyone to think about what they want to get out of it and whether their goals are compatible?

Maybe a bass player is exactly what we need

A bassist is the most natural fit, but a vocalist or another guitarist or keyboardist might work too...pretty much any musician who wants to communicate with you guys

Good suggestions. I know that playing with a bassist helps me quite a bit. My wife has been learning, but she has only been playing for two or three months. But it's easier for me to make cohesive riffs when I have something, even a basic bass line to come back to.

There's no singing... We just kind of meander around a riff for twenty minutes or so, having fun. I've always thought that having someone more experienced could help us kind of get a focus and do something more than just jam. I've never seen a band rehearse, so I don't know what it's supposed to be like.

Been looking on CL for guitarists or bassists, but it's hard, they all want resumes, gigs, pay, record deals and thrash metal!

Maybe I'm the one who's bored with it. I hope not.

Little confused here. Are you two a band? Your question is how you push band members. Does he know he's in a band? Seems like maybe he's just jamming along for fun with no particular goals or direction. Add a few more instruments/singers etc. and maybe he'll get
motivated to move forward.

Yeah I suppose it does sound strange. But the Meat Puppets were a jam band that just kind of happened too! We want to be, I just don't know if we practice like one. And I guess "push" is a bad term, maybe "motivate" or "inspire?"

I don't think you'll go much farther like that. If you want to go farther, I think you need a proper rhythm section and actual songs. As somebody who's just gone that one step farther this year, I can tell you it makes a BIG difference. :-) Better check to make sure he's on the same page, though!

Why play with only one drummer. play with as many drummers (or anything else) you can get your hands on. Maybe you're just not on the same page.

Best way to push a band member? Wait 'til he's bent over tieing his shoe and just give him a gentle nudge. (Sorry, had to do it!)

Sit down with the dude and ask him what his goal is for you guys. Does he want to be in a band or just goof around? If he wants to be in band, then there's you motivation. You can't do anything until you define goals.

Sometimes I use my hands, sometimes my boot.

Sometimes I use my hands, sometimes my boot.

Hehe I was wondering who would say this

find another band. you can't motivate people who will only be motivated to please you. might as well find some players who are stepping ahead with the program, working in a band with unmotivated players is like rowing a boat with the anchor out.

A couple years ago I finally gave up pushing other band members because 1) I was just a dick, 2) you can't make other people be better.

I am much happier now in my band situations when I just focus on improving myself.

Are either one of you singing or is he just drumming his head off to your noodling?

A lot of good suggestions guys. I appreciate it. There is a fare share of drumming and noodling. We've been playing for 18 months and we don't play any songs. No singing. I am far too leftbrained to be able to sing and play at the same time so far. I wish I could but I guess it takes practice and I'd rather concentrate on playing. It seems like our "jam sessions" are just aimless.

And the more I write the more I seem like I'm just as big of a problem in the equation.

And the more I write the more I seem like I'm just as big of a problem in the equation.

Now you're making progress! :lol:

No reason why you guys can't get some other players, bass, another guitar, keyboard, harp. Hopefully one or some of them would know some tunes and be able to relate them with vocals. It doesn't sound to me like he has anything to stay motivated to, and he should be rewarded for sticking it out as long as he has. Not trying to rag on ya, but you can't really expect him to keep doing this...do you?

I guess "push" is a bad term, maybe "motivate" or "inspire?"

"Communicate"

Every band has goals, and the most basic goal is to learn a song. If you can't sing and play, get a singer. Even a crappy one will help you and the drummer communicate and get an actual number down. "Here we go, we're doing 'We Will Rock You'". Bam, you do it, and you've done something, something you can name

My wife has been learning, but she has only been playing for two or three months.

I'm guessing she is already good enough to join a band with no songs. Have you all three played together yet? Seems your answer is sitting across the dinner table from you

Logical next step is to get a bassist, and someone step up to singing, or get a singer. THen try to line upa gig.

Why play with only one drummer. play with as many drummers (or anything else) you can get your hands on.

+1 This is commonly an overlooked option. Play with more people, you'll also get even better at playing and likely enjoy the diversity. The more diversity the better, and likely you will have to choose who you like the best instead of trying to turn who you are playing music with into the person you want to play music with...sorta confusing, but being in a band and getting all the members on the same page and on the same line is a daunting task...throw in a few kids, spouses, and substances and the divorce rate is out of this world. I'd love to play in a band again, but often find that the other members are either way more motivated or way less motivated than i am...great query though, made me think back:)

You need someone with some experience to come in and organize what you are doing. 18 months of noodling is kind of fruitless. Get a Bass player with some experience and learn some songs. Even if it's GLORIA. You'd be surprised how quickly you will both get excited about what you are doing and want 'more'.

Usually I just open the door to the basement stairs, and a nice little shove is all thats required.

I'm noticing a similar issue with the pedal steel/12 string acoustic guitarist in the band I play with. I've played with 'him' for coming on two years and he still can't pull off solos or fills.
I've just accepted 'him' for what he is musically and choose to focus on where I need to improve. Unfortunately you can't make someone want to improve- they gotta light that fire under their own a$$

I'm noticing a similar issue with the pedal steel/12 string acoustic guitarist in the band I play with. I've played with 'him' for coming on two years and he still can't pull off solos or fills.
I've just accepted 'him' for what he is musically and choose to focus on where I need to improve. Unfortunately you can't make someone want to improve- they gotta light that fire under their own a$$

'Him'?

Is his gender in doubt or something? :grin:

Absolutely true that you cannot get bandmates to improve (as you might see it) if they don't have that desire themselves. Pretty much true for any individual task a band member may have to perform including showing up for gigs/on time, learning songs, being courteous, being mature, listening to what your other bandmates are saying in a discussion or important gig instruction, what they are playing (in a song scenario anyway), having the necessary gear. The list is a mile long. You've just got to either accept it or move on, it's that simple.

Maybe he two of you can find a jam or two to attend. It will give you both a little insight into how others "do it."

You can never be in charge of someone else's motivation.

Usually I just open the door to the basement stairs, and a nice little shove is all thats required.

:lol::lol::lol:

You have to sit down with him and determine both of your goals. You need to have a main purpose you both agree on, you have to know what his motive is for making music, and what he intends to get back from his contribution.

You also need to be clear about what your motive and expected benefit is from making music. If you are in agreement on the above, then write out a detailed plan of action.

Keep the main purpose in your mind at all times. If he is loyal and dependable and motivated, you will succeed. If he is not interested in achieving the goals that are most important to you, find someone who is.

motivate. get a bass player.

I find that in most situations the best way to "push" a band member is to push yourself. Keep getting better. If they have any pride and/or musicianship at all they will start to notice and follow your example.

Keep in mind that when you were a total beginner, you were probably in awe of this dude's drumming, but there is kind of a learning curve, as with anything, to playing music. The earliest strides come fastest. A lot of people make those big strides from "beginner" to "pretty good" and don't really want to keep going because it's a lot more work to make smaller and smaller gains. Progress becomes slower when you reach a certain level, and that's just the way it is.

In fact, that's how it is with almost everything in life.

Thanks guys. This is why I joined this forum, good advice and friendly attitudes. We talked a bit when he came over the other night and he said he was glad I was getting serious (?) okay. So we've contacted another guitar player who also plays bass and we are gonna go jam at his place (different venue!) so we will see where it goes.

I remember Jeff Buckley saying in an interview that he had a burning desire to be in a band, surround himself with other people and their instruments - be it a dulcimer, a tuba, anything, it didn't matter. He wanted that comraderie to focus his own musical ideas.

So again, thanks for all your suggestions, I'll let you know how it goes.

My wife just became a published writer, so her bass playing may take the back seat for a little while!

I second the notion of learning some actual songs, and also agree that noodling for 20 minutes at a time is not going to be very productive.

And I think you should try your hand at singing too. I went for years without singing, and I always felt there was something missing. I was always at the mercy of finding someone else to round out my playing. I used to say that I'm not the guy to play an acoustic around the camp fire - I knew all the chords, but without the vocals it really wasn't very entertaining. I started singing in earnest about 10 years ago, and although I'm not the best singer, I can hold my own (and can be the guy around the camp fire!)

Spend some time practicing without the drummer. Try to learn 2 or 3 songs that you can half way sing. Learn them from beginning to end. Come up with an arrangement - it can be "just like the album" or you can rearrange as you see fit (ie Intro, Verse1, Chorus, Verse2, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Outro). You need to visualize/internalize how a song is structured - as you're playing you'll see "this is where we are, this is where we're going". This will go a long ways into putting structure into your playing. And regardless of the multitude of varying opinions on this, it's OK to write it down and use it as a cheat sheet.

Over time, and practice, you will get to a point where you don't need to rely on a full band to be entertaining in your own right. This makes it a lot easier (and enjoyable) down the road as you play with others - you bring more to the table than just being a guy who can noodle along.

Good luck, have fun!

Cheers,
Doug

Thanks Doug, I see where you're coming from with this, but my wife says maybe I should hold off on the singing for now...

Thanks Doug, I see where you're coming from with this, but my wife says maybe I should hold off on the singing for now...

:confused: If you don't start now, when do you start. Just like anything else, you get better by doing, not waiting. I am not a great singer from the stand point of range or tone, but I am pretty good with phrasing and style. The songs that do fit my style give me a real sense of being a complete player and the ability to play songs all the way through.

Always in interesting topic to me.

Sorry...I did not read every response but have you and the musicians you play with discussed a real 'goal'?

IMO....having experience....'pushing' someone (an adult) will only go so far.
It's imperative that 'goals' be discussed and all must be on the same mental page.
If one has to (constantly) 'push' a member then the member is not the right fit.
Not to mention the possible disparity in 'musicianship' skill levels among members which can also be a large problem.
Members working and improving between practice sessions tells much about the work ethic and sincerity of members.

Lastly....when I was in band endeavors I quit 'pushing' anyone.
If the band was not going to work from my perspective.....I leave the band....not try to 'push' or babysit adults as to how they should contribute to the total endeavor.
Good luck on your quest.....carry on...

So, what you are saying is you are progressing but he is not? Have you thought about adding a bass player to this mix? Plus maybe even a lead or rhythm player? You'd be surprised in the difference a really good bass player can do for a drummer (having been a drummer myself).

If he's a friend why not sit down one night and talk to him about it? Maybe his time is tied up and he doesn't get much home practice?

Another thing is he could be losing interest...kind of hard to be excited about a guitarist and drummer jamming all the time.

I know this is probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's what I'm hearing. Good Luck!

I agree. A bass player would probably encourage your drummer to progress. I'm not a drummer but can only imagine what it's like playing without a bass player. Those 2 just go together IMHO.

- Jagg

Update - So I introduced him to Wolfmother, and he dug it. My wife's favorite song is White Unicorn so the three of us learned it and had fun in the process, just broke it down into parts and learned each of them together. So that helped, so now we have one whole song in our repetoire! Seems like there's one day every two weeks or so that we are pretty synergistic, but for the most part I feel like he had no enthusiasm still.

So I've joined BandMix and emailed a few guys on Craigslist to see about hooking up with other people. Maybe learning something new with them I'll be able to bring something more back to this if I come back to it.

Again, thaks for the help!

Britt

From what I've read, which, admittedly, is not every post, it seems like your act as a whole is not together. Your act isn't much of an act. It's just two guys getting together and throwing ideas around for the heck of it, with no clear goal in mind. There's nothing inherently wrong with this at all, but the lack of focus and goals likely has something to do with the problem. The musicians you're contacting on Craigslist are likely looking to get into bands that already have something going on. They're probably not looking for simple jam partners, and to me, that's all you and the drummer sound like - jam partners.

EDIT:
I just read your update. It's good to hear things are moving forward, but I still feel the above text is useful to read.

I prefer to use my hands but if necessary, I'll push with my feet if they're that heavy.

A bass player is important, otherwise you just haven't got a band going on. Sure there are two-piece bands, but unless you're both bursting with ideas and enthusiasm, it just won't work.