Film project — under the gun (mix content)

To review, I'm writing and producing a western swing song for a movie. They wanted old-school, so the drums are pretty subdued and not nearly the headache they usually are. The lyrics are the campy cornball stuff of that era. ... I thought I was cruising along nicely with a Thanksgiving deadline, plenty of time to finish it up in a leisurely fashion.

Problem is, I was notified yesterday that the flick has been selected for a big film festival, so now they need it ASAP, like first of next week.

So I'm in scramble mode ... I've never posted a mix before it's somewhat complete, but this time's an exception. I need to fix any problems in this very rough partial mix before I get the steel player and female vocalist tracked (this weekend) ... the big gap at 1:42 is where the steel solo goes. Pardon my atrocious scratch vocal!

The downbeat rhythm guitar is panned hard left, and the backbeat rhythm hard right, with a barely audible hybrid acoustic part centered to glue them together. Tell me what you're hearing — the good, the bad and the ugly!

In My Dreams (work in progress) (http://soundcloud.com/the-woodshed/in-my-dreams-work-in-progress)

.

I gave a listen....

IMO...mix sounds Ok to me and drums are where they should be.
Only one thing (and I listened several times) at 2:42 the drum pattern seems to stumble a bit for a 1 or 2 bars so maybe give that segment some scrutiny.
Let me know if I'm off base on this comment.

Hope that helps....good luck with the deadline...<grin>

Carry on...

The vocal (you?) seems a little weak and out of pitch to my novice ears.
Could I do better? No.

Thanks, Chu Lai ... I'll check that passage out under the microscope. Appreciate it!

[BTW, I was with the First Cav down in the Central Highlands around the time things heated up in Chu Lai.]

Lewis, that's why I said this:
Pardon my atrocious scratch vocal!


The real deal will be sung by an infinitely better female vocalist.

Thanks, Chu Lai ... I'll check that passage out under the microscope. Appreciate it!

[BTW, I was with the First Cav down in the Central Highlands around the time things heated up in Chu Lai.]

I read the other vocal comment but you said that it was a scratch so I didn't listen intently to the vocal.

Ha...there's few of us left Brother.
I was there from Feb '66 - March '67...quite the (13 month) picnic I might add.
Actually...never spent any time in Chu Lai as I (we) climbed down the rope ladders of the Princeton and convoyed north from Chu Lai and setup a fire base some miles north.
All my Ops were north being Tam Ky, An Hoa, Phu Loc, etc.
Respect...

No hijack here....back to topic...carry on...

Woodman, are you going to bandpass this for an am radio effect? I know you'd talked about that at some point.

What is the brief hi-hat sound at @ 45 seconds?

I'm hearing some distortion at a few points. It sounds like it's in the center - and I think it is on the lead vocal. So, it may not be anything you have to worry about. Is the lead vocal clipping in spots?

I agree that drum fill near the end could be simpler or something.

Overall sounds pretty good to me - I'd maybe bring the background guitar up a notch. Might make the drums a bit softer overall - maybe roll off a bit of hi end - but only if you're going for a more old-timey feel.

Cheers,
Geoff

Hi Woody, pressure's on! Two observations:-
1. The bass seemed a little prominent to my ears
2. Maybe too much verb on the snare? It seemed too far back and a little weak. Also as Chu mentioned the roll at approx 2:40

Alright three observations! Just listened again and second solo seemed a little quieter than the first one. Nice playing by the way.

Hope some of this is useful.

Really like this one woodman!

I really enjoyed that arpeggio guitar w/ delay solo. Very Les Paul-esque!

In fact, it would be really cool if Mrs. Woodman did some multi-tracked harmonies à la Mary Ford, but I'm just talking to myself here.

The only things I'm hearing are the same as already mentioned:

The closed hi-hat at 0:47 sounds a little "odd". I think the accents on the snare in that measure (bar 20) do a nice job of leading into bar 21 without the hi-hat.

The "stumble" at 2:42 (bar 69)..Sounds okay until beats 3 through 4, then gets back on track on beat one of the next bar.

Looking forward to hearing the finished tune!

When the steel and the real vox are there, it'll be fine. Harmonies. How High The Moon.:grin:

I like it! Well done!

Sorta reminds me of a Jimmy & Speedy effort or some of those vids I've seen with Chet. Can't wait to hear it with the steel and Mrs. Woodman and then with the radio EQ. It's going to be really good when you get'er finished.

Good lads all! Thanks for letting me borrow your ears and monitor systems to dig out the warts.

Oddly, the beat Geoff and Scat mentioned as an out-of-place hi-hat is actually EZDrummer's version of a rimshot in the Brushes Kit. Obviously if both of you noticed it, it needs to change to a straight snare with a little goose in velocity.

And of course there's the notorious ~2:42 — in the early going, I was getting jiggy with some syncopation between the drums and the rhythm guitars, but then I got the idea of bringing the guitar section back in on the coda, necessarily ducking the rhythm gits, and was totally unclued that the drums had to roll with the smoother feel. Thanks to the many who commented! (Hats off to Scat, who not only tells you where it is on the timeline, but what bar and beat it is ... how do you do that, man?)

Petey, re your comments on the snare, drums in western swing were sort of a Necessary Evil for playing dance halls, rarely asserting themselves. The drummer played just enough for the "real" band to keep a steady beat. So to keep it period-accurate, I kept the drums in the shadows ... OTOH, there's a lot more kick in this sound than you heard on the old Bob Wills records. I did bring the bass down a dB or two, and it gave the drums more presence without being dominant.

Geoff, the AM treatment is still in the works — but when I got the word on the new immediate deadline, I also got the word that they want something "marketable" in the event of a soundtrack CD — so the AM schtick isn't the whole show. I'll deliver it both ways and the producer and director can hash it out with the audio guy. Also, I'm concerned about your hearing distortion ... I can't find it, and there's ample headroom on all tracks. I suspect I might have been blowing out the mike diaphragm on the scratch vocal, working the SM7B close while SUI (singing under the influence).

At any rate, the cake is becoming nicely baked. The steel will be the icing, and the Lady Woodman the cherry on top. Scat and Fezz got me to thinkin' about Mary Ford harmonies ... hmmmmm!

Good lads all! Thanks for letting me borrow your ears and monitor systems to dig out the warts.

Also, I'm concerned about your hearing distortion ... I can't find it, and there's ample headroom on all tracks. I suspect I might have been blowing out the mike diaphragm on the scratch vocal, working the SM7B close while SUI (singing under the influence).

At any rate, the cake is becoming nicely baked. The steel will be the icing, and the Lady Woodman the cherry on top. Scat and Fezz got me to thinkin' about Mary Ford harmonies ... hmmmmm!

Definitely yes on the harmonies!

As for the distortion - it could also be a soundcloud thing. If nobody else is hearing it - I wouldn't worry. I was pretty sure it was the lead vocal.

Really, sounds damn good. Go do the steel and lead (and harmony) vox and make 'em swing!!

Looking forward to hearing the end result!

Cheers,
Geoff

Since I'm late to the party and all prior comments are from ears far superior to mine, all I can say is ....






IT'S A HIT!!!

Great job Woody! I love it! Don't forget to remember us from the "Red Carpet!!"

kc

Hats off to Scat, who not only tells you where it is on the timeline, but what bar and beat it is ... how do you do that, man?

I record it, drag it into Logic, put a bpm counter on it and line it up..:twisted:

woodman, listening again I'm hearing something like a distortion/clipping/crackling sound during the "Les Paul-like" solo at 1:29 where the cymbal drops out for two beats (bar 38, beats 3 through 4).

I tried to listen closely to hear if the cymbal was masking the distortion/crackling all through the solo.

Doesn't seem so..I'm just hearing it from beat 3 through beat 4 in bar 38.

As for the distortion - it could also be a soundcloud thing. If nobody else is hearing it - I wouldn't worry. I was pretty sure it was the lead vocal.

I heard it too.. in the first few vocal lines after the steel break..but I just didn't mention it because it's a scratch vocal.

Did you already consider Mary Ford style multitrack vocals for this tune? First thing I felt when I heard you singing was that this was missing.

Let the music editor do the radio mix. Unless they're paying you extra.

Great job Woody! I love it! Don't forget to remember us from the "Red Carpet!!"

Beat me to it. I was going to say don't forget the little people. Congrats man, good stuff!

M

[QUOTE=woodman;3719983]Petey, re your comments on the snare, drums in western swing were sort of a Necessary Evil for playing dance halls, rarely asserting themselves. The drummer played just enough for the "real" band to keep a steady beat. So to keep it period-accurate, I kept the drums in the shadows ... OTOH, there's a lot more kick in this sound than you heard on the old Bob Wills records. I did bring the bass down a dB or two, and it gave the drums more presence without being dominant.

I did think that was the sound you were going for and funnily enough I put on a Bob Wills CD for comparison! You're not going to add any "whoops" and "ahhs" at the start are you?

Looking forward to vocals and steel.

Petey, I might have to throw in one "Hawwww!" right before the instrumental just for grins!

Iwoodman, listening again I'm hearing something like a distortion/clipping/crackling sound during the "Les Paul-like" solo at 1:29 where the cymbal drops out for two beats (bar 38, beats 3 through 4).

I tried to listen closely to hear if the cymbal was masking the distortion/crackling all through the solo.

Doesn't seem so..I'm just hearing it from beat 3 through beat 4 in bar 38.


DANG! It is so. ... Apparently it printed that way, cuz there's huge headroom in the Mix window. Might take another run at that whole solo, it's inconsistent as is anyhow. So today's chores: get this steel track rassled down, track the lead vocals, and get a clean second solo. Will try to post a rough mix of the finished tracks tonight. Time is breathing down my neck.

DANG! It is so. ... Apparently it printed that way, cuz there's huge headroom in the Mix window. Might take another run at that whole solo, it's inconsistent as is anyhow. So today's chores: get this steel track rassled down, track the lead vocals, and get a clean second solo. Will try to post a rough mix of the finished tracks tonight. Time is breathing down my neck.

Yeah, it kinda sounds like a CPU overload kinda glitch. What are your CPU and hard drive meters doing in that spot?

So, Woodman, are you switching up your I/O buffer size when tracking and mixing? If not, go in prefs, audio and it is right there. Basically, you want to go as small as possible when tracking without it glitching or having too much latency (the more you use plugs while tracking, the slower you'll need to set it too) and then bump it up to the max setting for mix. I think I'm set at 128 or 256 for tracking.

So, try setting the buffer to the max setting if it isn't and see if that clears it up.

Just make sure you set it back to where it was for the rest of the tracking.

Cheers,
Geoff

Geoff, the buffer info is much appreciated! ... I just tracked too hot, I think (waveforms verging on the danger zone). I retracked that solo today. The tape delay and compressor don't get along, so I duped the track with one clean w/ delay, one juicily compressed but dry ... trying to get them blended, among a zillion other things.

Looks like it's gonna be tomorrow before I get a rough mix up, and it'll probably be scratch vocals from the gal at that.

Woody, I'm with Fezz on this 100%. It's absolutely fine or it's intended use. Personally I might add another db or 2 on the kick level. Let their editor worry about the radio station effect. That's their job.

Good job!

On the nose ION. Music Editor or final dub. That's their job. Also spot on as far as the mix being just fine for it's intended use. I can't tell you how many times I've sent rough mixes for temp dubs and they end up being used.

This cue for The Outer Limits was a rough mix:
eNvgsmrGWGs

So are these from Dead Like Me: (when Mason and Gideon are in the apartment)
y6OV2We3-4Y

Yeah, I'd come to that conclusion myself, Fezz and Andy — especially under the brutal new deadline! Also covering my back end with the ASCAP folderol, but it's mostly been 10-12 hours a day in the studio this week.

PS — enjoyed the clips, Fezz!

The Outer Limits cue I put together in about an hour. Sounds like it too!:lol:

Here's another sample... Forgot about this tune I had in a movie "Babycakes" with a young Rikki Lake from about 20 years ago.

At 1:20 in the vid the tune is playing on the jukebox... We got a full 1:30 usage on this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt-1pcNnu2k&feature=related

Mailbox money!

Best kind Fezz! Takes time, but once it builds up it's great! My average ASCAP qtrly statement is about 30 pages long.

You guys are egging me on into happy whoredom! I'm lovin' it. Mailbox money's much better'n giving your music away to anybody who'll listen to it. After 40+ years in this oxymoron "music business," I'm seeing the wisdom of having something to show for it.

At any rate:
DISASTER!

The songbird came out to the Woodshed for our Sunday session, and she just wasn't hitting her notes ... confessed she'd awaken up with a sore throat (which has gone to strep) and had to plead mercy. So my only choice was to sing it myself — the film folks want to make a decision before T'giving weekend. It ain't bad, but of course it ain't the Lady Woodman either! It's like in 1940 when you'd pay hard coin to get into a Bob Wills & the Texas Playboys dance, but Bob was layin' up drunk miles away!

Anywaze, here's what I sent 'em as an MP3 ... I've still got time to tweak the 48/24 I'll have to deliver at some as yet unspecified time before Thursday. [I'm still new at this entertainment industry jazz, I feel like Grandpa Moses stumblin' around.]

http://soundcloud.com/the-woodshed/in-my-dreams

Just take it as it comes Woody, and always protect yourself. Wear a cup.:lol:

Fezz, you bad.

Hey woodman, I suspected something was amiss when you didn't post a new version yesterday. Shame that Mrs. Woodman is under the weather, but I think you did a fine job yourself.

I'm hearing a very short but very noticeable digital "pop" just after 1:40 (bar 43, just before the upbeat of 2).

I was able to record and drag your soundcloud file into Logic, open the sample editor, zoom in on the "pop", and use the pencil tool to pencil it out without hearing any dropout.

A pretty quick and painless process, if you're so inclined.

EDIT: If you do decide to do this, you might want to have a backup because this is a destructive process.

Hey woodman, I suspected something was amiss when you didn't post a new version yesterday. Shame that Mrs. Woodman is under the weather, but I think you did a fine job yourself.

I'm hearing a very short but very noticeable digital "pop" just after 1:40 (bar 43, just before the upbeat of 2).

I was able to record and drag your soundcloud file into Logic, open the sample editor, zoom in on the "pop", and use the pencil tool to pencil it out without hearing any dropout.

A pretty quick and painless process, if you're so inclined.

EDIT: If you do decide to do this, you might want to have a backup because this is a destructive process.


Scat, you never cease to blow my mind (*bar 43, just before the upbeat of 2*) . ... Those pops seem to often occur in Logic when I merge comps that have been Flexed, or vice-versa — thanx for the good ear; I hadn't caught that one. They're usually prominent in the waveform, so I'm surprised I missed it.

But if that's the extent of your critique, I'm happy! What in the dog-bit hail are you listening through when you catch all this stuff?

I've got four Undo's on the destructive Sample Editor, so I'm careful with it. I tried the pencil tool a time or two and never could get it to work as I could in Pro Tools. Operator error, no question. My reach is always exceeding my grasp.

Awsome Possum Woody!

I love it! I think you sound great!

Break a leg!

kc

KC, I love your always positive reviews! Thanx, pal.

sounds great Mr. woodman!

guitars are great and the vocals are perfect!

You've put a lot of effort into this, and it shows. You should be proud.

Woody , it's awesome, you did a great job on this as well as Tom and Joe..

I hope you make a million !

t

Sounds great. Real old fashioned, i'm growing a stetson!

:grin:

At the end you could use some more air . . but to me it's almost perfect.

Sounding fantastic!

I think your vocals work really well on this. Would have loved to hear Lady Woodman's Mary Ford on this - but if it's not to be? Your vocal is working just fine!

That pop is definitely there. If it can be easily fixed, I'd fix it.

Not sure I'm digging the shifting tonality of the lead starting @ 1:25, but that's more a production thing than a mix thing.

I'll also throw this out - not that this tune needs it particularly, and at this point I don't think you should be doing anything drastic (or anything different at all really) - but you can use tape delay in Logic, with the delay turned off, to add a little grit/lo-fi/old skoolness to things.

Cheers,
Geoff

Sounds great this end. Shame you didn't get Mrs. Woodman in a day earlier! I have to say though, your vocals do suit the song so not a big problem. Love the steel too.

Good luck with the film guys.

P.S. You weren't kidding about the Haaw! Bob would have been proud.

Actually, the director said she was glad it was a male vocal, because it's more about the lovelorn doofus DJ in that scene. So all's well that ends well, I reckon.

I did find and fix that pop ... it wasn't the typical top-to-bottom spike you usually see; more like a dense, concentrated blob that resembled a waveform unless you zoomed way in. Thanks for pointing it out, guys; I had to really listen closely in my crappy 'phones to hear it. It's great to have your ears and good monitoring systems as a resource!

Geoff, I'm kinda mystified at the shifting tonality myself. It was that way on the first take, then after I redid it, it still prevailed. Dunno what to do about it at this point except cringe every time I listen to it. Got any quick-fix suggestions?

It's great to have your ears and good monitoring systems as a resource!

I think I've mentioned this before, but anyway, I have an old set of Tannoy PBM 6.5 II near-field monitors and a flea-bitten pair of AKG K240 headphones. Definitely not high-end by any means, but..

I can sometimes hear these digital type shenanigans by listening at different volumes and positions with the speakers, even standing off to the side of them.

..or with headphones; rather than always having them clamped down in the "correct" position, I'll sometimes move them back on my head so that the speakers aren't pointed directly down the ear canal.

..or I'll grab both speakers and hold them away from my ears while monitoring.

Just a little change in positioning of the 'phones makes it easier for me to hear some of this stuff.

[QUOTE=woodman;3730561Geoff, I'm kinda mystified at the shifting tonality myself. It was that way on the first take, then after I redid it, it still prevailed. Dunno what to do about it at this point except cringe every time I listen to it. Got any quick-fix suggestions?[/QUOTE]

Maybe highpass it to cut some of the highs off the parts with more treble? If that sounds too weird, perhaps parallel it and get partway there?

Make sure there isn't some weird automation glitch on the eq? I dunno Woody, without going in and trying to eq everything to match and automating all that, I can't think of too much else to try. Normally, I'd suggest hiding it - but here it's a solo part.

Is it comped? It sounds almost like the mic was moved or you switched pickups, nudged the tone control, or something.

At the end of the day, if that's how it stays - confidently tell folks that's how it's supposed to be.

Cheers,
Geoff

Maybe highpass it to cut some of the highs off the parts with more treble? If that sounds too weird, perhaps parallel it and get partway there?

Make sure there isn't some weird automation glitch on the eq? I dunno Woody, without going in and trying to eq everything to match and automating all that, I can't think of too much else to try. Normally, I'd suggest hiding it - but here it's a solo part.

Is it comped? It sounds almost like the mic was moved or you switched pickups, nudged the tone control, or something.

At the end of the day, if that's how it stays - confidently tell folks that's how it's supposed to be.

Cheers,
Geoff

Geoff, the solo was tracked dry and uneffected through my tube preamp with the intent of applying a fat, clean amp model afterward (never could find a sim that worked, though). The E and B strings were spitting fire, but when I'd drop down to the lower strings, those highs would fall out. I'd thought I could EQ it into shape, but cutting the top end made the non-strident notes muddy. In hindsight, I wish I'd put some EQ on it as I recorded, but of course that's history now.

After the first take, I wondered too if I'd nudged my tone control, so I scotch-taped it in place for the second take (all other levels were exactly the same throughout). ... Hoping to steal away from the holiday chaos to tinker with it some more today. Doubt if I'll have the time to completely redo it; that's a tough, time-consuming solo for these stiff old arthritic hands. ... Got a little grace period as the tune was approved by the director and executive producer on the strength of an emailed MP3, so I don't have to deliver the 48/24 version until tomorrow. Maybe I can find some way to make it into lemonade! That's the only part of the tune I'm not happy with.

Geoff, the solo was tracked dry and uneffected through my tube preamp with the intent of applying a fat, clean amp model afterward (never could find a sim that worked, though). The E and B strings were spitting fire, but when I'd drop down to the lower strings, those highs would fall out. I'd thought I could EQ it into shape, but cutting the top end made the non-strident notes muddy. In hindsight, I wish I'd put some EQ on it as I recorded, but of course that's history now.

After the first take, I wondered too if I'd nudged my tone control, so I scotch-taped it in place for the second take (all other levels were exactly the same throughout). ... Hoping to steal away from the holiday chaos to tinker with it some more today. Doubt if I'll have the time to completely redo it; that's a tough, time-consuming solo for these stiff old arthritic hands. ... Got a little grace period as the tune was approved by the director and executive producer on the strength of an emailed MP3, so I don't have to deliver the 48/24 version until tomorrow. Maybe I can find some way to make it into lemonade! That's the only part of the tune I'm not happy with.

Woody, if it's just the top couple strings, figure out the lowest (B) and highest frequency you play on the E, and get surgical on just those frequencies - a db or three at the most. It might tame it enough, and then maybe a gentle boost in the lows/ cut in the highs to smooth it out.

Cheers,
Geoff

So, did you hand in your homework?

What did you end up doing with the solo?

Cheers,
Geoff

Just for the record, here's what I ended up with after fine-tuning tweaks. Many thanks to all who contributed to my rehabilitation!

In My Dreams (http://soundcloud.com/the-woodshed/in-my-dreams)

.

Great job,woodman---very authentic and well played.

Lovin' it over here. Came out great. Now to resist more tweaks!

Sounding good there woodman!

I realize the film might not be screened here in TexasLand where I could see it. Do you think a DVD will be available at some point?

Let us know if/when a soundtrack is available. I'd like to hear it and also put some coin in your pocket at the same time.

Lovin' it over here. Came out great. Now to resist more tweaks!

Right you are — I've lashed myself to the mast to resist the siren song of over-tweakage!

Sounding good there woodman!

I realize the film might not be screened here in TexasLand where I could see it. Do you think a DVD will be available at some point?

Let us know if/when a soundtrack is available. I'd like to hear it and also put some coin in your pocket at the same time.

I'm not an insider at this point, but I'd be surprised if this one gets widespread theater release like a Hollywood film would. I do know they're betting heavily on international distribution, which leads me to believe they're being realistic on the chances of deep penetration in the stateside market. I'm sure it'll be available on DVD, and I'll keep you up to date as I gather intelligence on exactly what's going on.

WoW Woodman! My fave of all the tunes of your's I've listened to! I think it 's all great: playing, vox, production I'd nominate it for an oscar! Any 2nds?

KC

Ok, that seriously kicked A$$. GOOD WORK MAN!

Ok, that seriously kicked A$$. GOOD WORK MAN!

Might be the best one yet!

Cheers,
Geoff

Love it!
I can't imagine any music editor saying anything other than, "perfect, that'll work great, exactly what we're looking for".

*Actually I can imagine them saying all manner of stupid and inane stuff - but not in this case.

Appreciate it, guys! I owe a lot to the encouragement and good advice I got here, which is what makes the RIP such a great forum.


I can't imagine any music editor saying anything other than, "perfect, that'll work great, exactly what we're looking for".

To my total astonishment, that's about what they said! (If they'd seen my dinky little "studio," they might have run the other way.) :mrgreen:

Finally got a chance to listen Woody... Great job!

hi woody, here you are hiding. i just listened to the tune and i find it AWESOME! the vocals are so mellow and cool, the wonderful guitars all over the place. wish they had a bar here, that plays music like that. you are doing something great. all the best for you, eddie

hi woody, here you are hiding. i just listened to the tune and i find it AWESOME! the vocals are so mellow and cool, the wonderful guitars all over the place. wish they had a bar here, that plays music like that. you are doing something great. all the best for you, eddie

Good to hear from you, Eddie! Yeah, I hang around here at the RIP forum most of the time now — since the Stragglers broke up, I've been pretty studio-intensive and don't have time to haunt the Bad Dog etc. much anymore. ... Tell the Rhythm Cat I said hello!

Wood

Woodman, sorry I've been scarce lately, work has been sidelining me.

Just got a chance to listen to your finished product and LOVE it! I can't add anything that hasn't already been said, except I love how the steel part turned out. Very nicely played! The whole song has the exact correct feel to it. Well done!!

After this week, I might be able to get back to my projects. My friend, the singer, picked up a Mojave MA-300 tubed LDC mic and we're re-doing all his vocals now with the new mic. What a gorgeous sounding vocal mic for what we are doing.