$vboptions[bbtitle]

Tone similar to Strat Quack on a Tele?

JBAdamsJr
November 7th, 2011, 04:13 PM
I have a need to get a tone similar to the "quack" pickup position on a Strat. Is there a way to get something like that on a Tele? I have a 4-position switch and think that the combination pickup position in serial mode would be the closest, but maybe you can get something similar with just the bridge pickup? I am trying to get a funky tone for a particular song and that "quack" Strat position seems like what they used on the song.

Phostenix
November 7th, 2011, 04:26 PM
The closest you will probably get is what is typically called Half Out-of-Phase or HOoP. The pickups are in parallel, but out-of-phase with a cap in series with the neck pickup. Adding a resistor with the cap on the neck pup & also adding a resistor in series with the bridge pup gets a little more quack.

Here's a drawing of a 5-way Tele with that setup:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7440801/Guitar%20Wiring/Tele5-WaySHOoP2.jpg

AJBaker
November 8th, 2011, 05:39 AM
+1 on what Phostenix said. He has a knack of figuring out just about any wiring you could desire. I'm thinking of even giving him a tricky strat wiring to figure out if he can:lol:!

Did you change that diagramm? I remember looking at it once before, and I don't recall any resistors. What do they do?
The baja comes with a half out of phase sound, but without resistors, so my curiosity is piqued!

sjtalon
November 8th, 2011, 08:29 AM
The baja comes with a half out of phase sound, but without resistors, so my curiosity is piqued!

Half out of phase ? That's a new on me.

I think it's the resistor that takes some of the thinness out of it, so not so nasal-y you could say.

I think ??

AJBaker
November 8th, 2011, 08:49 AM
I'm not sure how Phostenix has it wired, but in the baja it's actually only the extra capacitor that takes some of the thinness out in the parallel out of phase position.

jefrs
November 8th, 2011, 09:10 AM
The Baja does indeed come with the cap in series with the neck pickup in the parallel out of phase position.

But the cap doesn't bring much to the party as I found when I replaced the S-1 (4p2w) with a push-pull (because I wanted a nice smooth linear vol pot). Do note that the strat selector shown above is a 4p Super-Switch(?), you cannot insert the cap with a 2p2w p-p switch.

So then the easiest way to try-out is simply to flip the polarity of your existing neck pickup, it will need 3-wire conversion - cut the cold to case jumper and add a new case/shield ground wire - do not attempt to solder on the coil connections (it is a genuine and authentic pita visit your proctologist to resolder coil wires even for me, and I /can/ solder aluminium to stainless steel or glass)

Phostenix
November 8th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Did you change that diagram? I remember looking at it once before, and I don't recall any resistors. What do they do?


Yes, the resistors are a recent add. The Jerry Donahue Tele (and Peavey Omniac) have the added resistors. I did some testing a couple of weeks ago & found that the resistors did add a little bit of quack/chime to the half out-of-phase wiring, so I added them to my guitars. :smile: The value of the resistors also needed to be tweaked a little from pickup to pickup. I used 6.2K, 7.5K, and 8.2K in different guitars. The cap value also can be varied quite a bit to get different sounds. The Strat quack type sound, though, seems to be usually with the .01uF cap. I found that a small variation of the cap value will make a noticeable change to the quack, and a lot of my caps measured more than 10% under value - which matters in this application.

Phostenix
November 8th, 2011, 10:18 AM
I've been spending my free time the last couple of weeks working on a website to use as a library for my drawings. I have a lot more work to do on it, but the drawings that I wanted to post are all there. I still need to add descriptions to a lot of them.

I plan to keep adding to the site over time & add video demos, too.

Feel free to check it out, but be aware that it's not quite ready for prime time.

https://sites.google.com/site/phostenixwiringdiagrams/

Vic Vega
November 8th, 2011, 10:37 AM
I've been spending my free time the last couple of weeks working on a website to use as a library for my drawings. I have a lot more work to do on it, but the drawings that I wanted to post are all there. I still need to add descriptions to a lot of them.

I plan to keep adding to the site over time & add video demos, too.

Feel free to check it out, but be aware that it's not quite ready for prime time.

https://sites.google.com/site/phostenixwiringdiagrams/


Very cool stuff. Thanks for posting the link . . .

sjtalon
November 8th, 2011, 10:43 AM
I'm not sure how Phostenix has it wired, but in the baja it's actually only the extra capacitor that takes some of the thinness out in the parallel out of phase position.


Oh ya that's right, it's a cap on the S1.

Some guys will put a resitor on a Tele bridge pup to take some of the ice pick out, that's why my head was on resistors, as well as Phostenix.

rolling56
November 8th, 2011, 10:54 AM
I've been spending my free time the last couple of weeks working on a website to use as a library for my drawings. I have a lot more work to do on it, but the drawings that I wanted to post are all there. I still need to add descriptions to a lot of them.

I plan to keep adding to the site over time & add video demos, too.

Feel free to check it out, but be aware that it's not quite ready for prime time.

https://sites.google.com/site/phostenixwiringdiagrams/

Thanks and nice to have then in one spot :cool:

jefrs
November 8th, 2011, 11:27 AM
Yes, the resistors are a recent add. The Jerry Donahue Tele (and Peavey Omniac) have the added resistors. I did some testing a couple of weeks ago & found that the resistors did add a little bit of quack/chime to the half out-of-phase wiring, so I added them to my huitars. :smile: The value of the resistors also needed to be tweaked a little from pickup to pickup. I used 6.2K, 7.5K, and 8.2K in different guitars. The cap value also can be varied quite a bit to get different sounds. The Strat quack type sound, though, seems to be usually with the .01uF cap. I found that a small varaiation of the cap value will make a noticeable change to the quack, and a lot of my caps measured more than 10% under value - which matters in this application.

Any chance you could provide a conventional circuit diagram please, as opposed to a picture layout schematic? - it is rather hard to figure out what the fixed R values are doing in the circuit.
It looks very interesting.

garrett
November 8th, 2011, 01:52 PM
I love the HOoP with the .01 uf cap. It's quite quacky, and a decent substitute for the bridge/middle position of a Strat.

sjtalon
November 8th, 2011, 02:22 PM
Phostenix, a correction on your diagram, the bridge pickup doesn't have the hole
between the G and D poles :razz:

Phostenix
November 8th, 2011, 02:40 PM
Phostenix, a correction on your diagram, the bridge pickup doesn't have the hole
between the G and D poles :razz:

I didn't make that shape, Jason did. :razz:

I guess I could add that...


How's this?

Phostenix
November 8th, 2011, 02:50 PM
Any chance you could provide a conventional circuit diagram please, as opposed to a picture layout schematic?

How 'bout this?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7440801/Guitar%20Wiring/HOoPSchematic3.jpg

jferrell
November 8th, 2011, 05:23 PM
I didn't make that shape, Jason did. :razz:

Ha...I did that on purpose to see if anyone would notice... :lol:

By the way, thanks for posting your diagrams to a website!

robt57
November 8th, 2011, 05:29 PM
My brain is having trouble with 1/2 out of phase. So is this one coil reverse polarity while out of phase with the other coil ?

AJBaker
November 8th, 2011, 05:48 PM
My brain is having trouble with 1/2 out of phase. So is this one coil reverse polarity while out of phase with the other coil ?

In theory, two identical pickups with the same signal, wired out of phase would produce no sound at all. However, since the pickups are at different parts of the string, and built differently, what we hear are the differences that don't get cancelled out.
Now, if we attach a capacitor to one of the pickups to cut away a chunk of its signal, the pickups become even more "different" and less signal gets cancelled out, making for a more useful sound than pure out of phase.


P:
Cool website BTW!

sjtalon
November 8th, 2011, 06:38 PM
My brain is having trouble with 1/2 out of phase. So is this one coil reverse polarity while out of phase with the other coil ?


Ya, that's why I put a question mark after that in my 1st post.

Half oop

I don't think electrically (reality) there would be such a thing with a set of pickups, I'm thinking it's just a tone term, meaning the sound is not really like REAL oop which sounds like crap.

So with either some cap or resistor wizardry, that change in tone of one of the pups in the set does the deal......or makes it a tone someone would want. Like on the Baja Tele, they put a .01µF cap on the neck pup S1 point.

Is that the deal ??

Phostenix
November 8th, 2011, 08:15 PM
I don't think electrically (reality) there would be such a thing with a set of pickups, I'm thinking it's just a tone term, meaning the sound is not really like REAL oop which sounds like crap.


Yeah, Half Out-of-Phase is just a way of saying that it's not straight Out-of-Phase. The sound ends up somewhere between the thin & weak parallel out-of-phase sound & the normal in-phase parallel sound.

I found it really interesting that putting positions 2 & 4 on a Strat Half Out-of-Phase takes the quack out & gives you a beefier, more solid midrange tone. What I take from that is that the sound that we associate with Strat "in-between" positions is a similar thing to "Half Out-of-Phase". That's why a lot of people (inaccurately) call those positions Strat "out-of-phase" tones. The pickups are spaced just right to get some out-of-phase cancellations when they are on together in parallel, giving them that Strat tone.

So, if you wire a Strat with a switch that puts positions 2 & 4 Half Out-of-Phase, they sound like 2 pickups back in-phase. It seems like an obvious mod for a Strat player to me. :smile:

garrett
November 8th, 2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah, speaking literally, half out of phase is impossible. It's like the phrase "a little bit pregnant." The + and - leads are either swapped or not.

The series cap filters out some of the low frequencies from the neck pickup. So you have full bridge pickup and only highs from the neck pickup. Since some of the frequencies are blocked, it leaves less frequencies affected by phasing. Hence, "half out of phase."

I've also seen it called Controlled Out of Phase, which might be a less confusing term.

I think having the neck out of phase with the cap sounds similar to position 2 of a Strat, so I've been wondering if making the bridge out of phase with the cap instead would give a slightly fatter tone, like position 4 of a Strat. Haven't been motivated to try it, though.

robt57
November 8th, 2011, 09:09 PM
It makes more sense when you think of it a half the frequency I guess....

Phostenix
November 8th, 2011, 10:21 PM
I've also seen it called Controlled Out of Phase, which might be a less confusing term.

COoP? I'm guessing that non-technical people would understand half out-of-phase - in terms of sounding somewhere between in-phase and out-of-phase - more than they would "controlled" out-of-phase.


I think having the neck out of phase with the cap sounds similar to position 2 of a Strat, so I've been wondering if making the bridge out of phase with the cap instead would give a slightly fatter tone, like position 4 of a Strat. Haven't been motivated to try it, though.

I tried that on 2 guitars with 2 humbuckers where I can choose coils. Using the HOoP wiring on the outside coils, putting the cap in series with the neck pup did have more chime/quack than putting the cap in series with the bridge pup. I haven't tried it on a Tele.

Ricky D.
November 8th, 2011, 11:43 PM
The irony of it all.

Telecasters wrote the book on funk. There's no funk guitar riff that doesn't sound better on a Tele than any other guitar. The guy that played that funk part settled for quacky strat. Just use your Tele in the middle position and take it to the next level.

suntower
November 9th, 2011, 03:30 AM
Obviously this is a popular idea. :D

Ah... that good ol' Tele defensiveness. Regardless of what anyone tells ya... if you want the real 'Good Times' sound of 1979 with a 2 pickup Tele? Good luck!

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pickups/295477-tele-humbucker-5-pos-mod.html

That said, I found that when I added a fatter humbucker on the neck and then did the HOoP thing it works -fairly- well... And then adding the TBX tone control took it a bit closer. Also trying different cap values -and- experimenting with different pots was good too. All those little things cumulatively REALLY made a difference.

I am very grateful to the gentlemen who helped me work through this stuff. Very happy with the results, but it's it's own sound---NOT a strat.

<HTH>

---JC

Phostenix
November 11th, 2011, 01:37 PM
if you want the real 'Good Times' sound of 1979 with a 2 pickup Tele? Good luck!


Funny thing is, I watched a bunch of Niles Rodgers videos on YouTube and in every shot where you can see the pickup selector, he's in Position 5 - the Neck pickup by itself. So, unless he's got a custom wiring setup, he gets all that funky quack out of a single pickup.

boris bubbanov
November 11th, 2011, 02:04 PM
In theory, two identical pickups with the same signal, wired out of phase would produce no sound at all. However, since the pickups are at different parts of the string, and built differently, what we hear are the differences that don't get cancelled out.
Now, if we attach a capacitor to one of the pickups to cut away a chunk of its signal, the pickups become even more "different" and less signal gets cancelled out, making for a more useful sound than pure out of phase.




That's a great way of explaining it.

I think the Bill Lawrence 5 way switch here at TDPRI is another blueprint for a useful sound.

I wish I'd gone for total immersion on the Baja. I just sort of held it up there, exalted, and never even took them apart to see what we had. Guys who don't own one know more about 'em than I do. :shock:

In spite of that, I still don't go for equating any of this, even superficially, with Strat quack. Seems distinct, to me, based on what I hear.

jefrs
November 11th, 2011, 02:08 PM
It is possible to re-wire the S-1 with an extra cap so that the cap is added to the neck pickup on its own. Thereby making use of an otherwise wasted selection position.

Another term is phase-shifted but imo this "effect" is really just tone shaping with an LCR circuit. The fixed R is not entirely necessary for solo selection since the vol pot can provide that

tyguy
November 13th, 2011, 02:00 AM
I have a need to get a tone similar to the "quack" pickup position on a Strat. Is there a way to get something like that on a Tele? I have a 4-position switch and think that the combination pickup position in serial mode would be the closest, but maybe you can get something similar with just the bridge pickup? I am trying to get a funky tone for a particular song and that "quack" Strat position seems like what they used on the song.The Jerry Donahue nails the strat quack but wiring is tricky.Find one wired up and you've got it.Great switch.I still have mine but don't know wiring.Should have wrote it down when I removed it!This switch is the only way to get strat Knopfler sound.

Phostenix
November 13th, 2011, 11:00 AM
The Jerry Donahue nails the strat quack but wiring is tricky.Find one wired up and you've got it.Great switch.I still have mine but don't know wiring.Should have wrote it down when I removed it!This switch is the only way to get strat Knopfler sound.

Any chance you could take some good pics of the wiring? I'd like to know if it's different from the drawing I posted (based on internet info about the Peavey Omniac).

Assuming the wiring scheme is correct, I'd like to know the cap & resistor values.

My experimenting tells me that those values have to be matched with the pickups, so if the JD really quacks it will be the combination of those pickups with the right cap & resistors.

garrett
November 13th, 2011, 12:08 PM
Here's the actual Peavey diagram, keeping in mind they're using an oddball switch:
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/bsnyder45036/JD_Omniac.jpg

Here's a good thread. It has the above diagram translated to the Super Switch. http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pickups/179959-donahue-wiring.html

I took that, translated it to the Megaswitch M and then simplified it a little for my guitar. I don't have a diagram for the full JD treatment, but could make one if anyone is interested.

Now, that's all for the Peavey Omniac, but the JD signature Tele is a bit different. I copied this text outlining the differences from the Seymour Duncan forum a while back:


Fender JD: Position 1: The neck (Strat®) pickup with the tone circuit OUT, affording a clearer, brighter tone to compensate for the inherent dullness normally found in this position.

Peavey JD: Position 1: Normal (Strat) pickup. Normal tone control. (Note: The Peavey JD wiring uses a normal tone control in all positions.)

Fender JD: Position 2: The neck (Strat®) pickup with the tone circuit IN, allowing the guitarist to soften the tone for rhythm or mellow leads, as per a stock Tele rhythm pickup.

Peavey JD: Same as #1 but with an additional .0022uf cap straight to ground. This is like a 2nd subtle tone control set on "zero". This will roll off just the very high-end.

Fender JD: Position 3: The neck and bridge pickups are in the standard stock parallel wiring with the tone circuit IN, enhancing the customary Tele® sound.

Peavey JD: Position 3: Neck and bridge in normal parallel. Normal tone control. Replace the .0022uf cap above with a .0033uf. A tad more high-end rolled off, (than position #2), but not much more.

Fender JD: Position 4: By combining both pickups with a capacitor and resistor in a controlled degree of reversed phase, the guitar offers a bell-like, rich tone that echoes the classic Strat® sound. Until now, this sound could only be obtained by the use of the bridge and middle pickups on a typical Strat.

Peavey JD: Position 4: This is the one position that seems to be the same, as well it should be. This is "the" JD sound. The neck is added to the bridge, out-of-phase, with a series resistor to limit the amount of signal, and a cap to limit the range of signal thats cancelled.

Fender JD: Position 5: Straight bridge. No tone control.

Peavey JD: Position 5: Straight bridge. Normal tone control.

Phostenix
November 13th, 2011, 07:02 PM
Yeah, I've seen that drawing before. I used it to come up with my version that looks like this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7440801/Guitar%20Wiring/Tele5-WaySHOoP.jpg


I'd just like to confirm those differences, since there are many differing opinions about the wiring & even that text isn't exact, since it doesn't clarify that a resistor is added in series with both pickups.

It would be nice to see some examples of the wiring to know for sure.

MrSparkle
November 15th, 2011, 06:04 AM
Sounds interesting. I love the quack 2 & 4 positions on a Strat, they've got so much pop and rhythmic range. Can anyone perhaps post clips of their wired 5-way Tele?

I was considering adding a middle pickup and having a Jazzmaster style switch that essentially just turned it on or off.. that would leave the regular 3-way setting, then on the pull give you: neck+middle, all 3, and neck+bridge.. but having 1 less pickup would be great.

garrett
November 16th, 2011, 09:31 AM
Sounds interesting. I love the quack 2 & 4 positions on a Strat, they've got so much pop and rhythmic range. Can anyone perhaps post clips of their wired 5-way Tele?

I was considering adding a middle pickup and having a Jazzmaster style switch that essentially just turned it on or off.. that would leave the regular 3-way setting, then on the pull give you: neck+middle, all 3, and neck+bridge.. but having 1 less pickup would be great.

Here's a little Magic GarageBand tune I did a while back. It doesn't quite pass for a Strat, but definitely not typical Tele tone (not that it's typical Tele setup, anyway).

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10053953

I think it's a little nasally here, but I can't remember if this is before or after I switched to using a high capacitance cable with my Pod. Guitars always sound really spikey to me with low cap cable through it. So that could be a factor.

I keep meaning to get around to doing a little bit of Cold Shot on my other Tele. I'll have to do that soon.

onenotetom
November 19th, 2011, 12:42 AM
The Peavey diagram is not showing for me. I too want to try the Peavey Omniac wiring on a new build I am planning. I found this component list

1. Seymour Duncan APTL-3JD
2. Seymour Duncan APS-2
3. 5-way double-wafer super switch
4. 6.2k x2 resistor
5. 0.0022uF cap
6. 0.0033uF cap
7. 150k resistor
8. 0.001uF cap
9. 0.022uF cap

A guys take on the diagram is post 90 here:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2216585

Have not taken the time to compare the parts to the diagram.

Phostenix
November 19th, 2011, 02:45 AM
The Peavey diagram is not showing for me. I too want to try the Peavey Omniac wiring on a new build I am planning. I found this component list

1. Seymour Duncan APTL-3JD
2. Seymour Duncan APS-2
3. 5-way double-wafer super switch
4. 6.2k x2 resistor
5. 0.0022uF cap
6. 0.0033uF cap
7. 150k resistor
8. 0.001uF cap
9. 0.022uF cap

A guys take on the diagram is post 90 here:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2216585

Have not taken the time to compare the parts to the diagram.

ArtieToo's diagram will give you the setup that garrett posted above. All of the parts are there in that list, too.

Phostenix
November 19th, 2011, 02:48 AM
Here's that drawing by ArtieToo:

http://www.neighborhost.com/images/Peavey_JD.png

trev333
November 19th, 2011, 03:21 AM
on my twin P90 tele I use a standard 5 way switch...

with a "deaf eddie" mod..
not the anderton one.. the bill lawrence one , reversed.... like the last one on the page

http://www.tdpri.com/wiring5wayStrat.htm..

with a .015 cap on the switch and a .047 as the tone cap... 500K pots..

the pos 1(rear) bass cut neck I use the most... pos2 has a good quack... 3 bridge, 4 series , 5 neck with fuller bass... all good to use ...

onenotetom
November 19th, 2011, 09:32 AM
Thanks for the replies. On this visit the Peavey diagrahm showed up so I copied it as well. Looks like I have plenty of information and better get busy ordering parts.