Stage volume vs good tone?

I have a couple nice tube amps (DRRI and a Vibroverb RI) but I never get the volume knobs up past 3 at our gigs. My band is adamant about keeping stage volume to a minimum. The other guitarist plays a SS amp, so volume is not an issue for him.

We mic our amps at nearly every gig. I understand the idea behind keeping stage volume to a minimum and I guess it's a good thing in that respect, but at the same time, I don't feel I'm getting the best tone out of my tube amps at such low volumes. I use pedals for dirt.

Anybody else gigging with their amp volume this low?

Very rarely mic up in my band, I have been known to put mixing desk case lid beside amp as a baflle to cut down noise to drummer.
I seem to be in a minority, smaller the gig bigger the amp, bigger the gig smaller the amp.:shock:

Very rarely mic up in my band, I have been known to put mixing desk case lid beside amp as a baflle to cut down noise to drummer.
I seem to be in a minority, smaller the gig bigger the amp, bigger the gig smaller the amp.:shock:

I'm trying to figure out if I should be happy or pissed that my band is so adamant about having low stage volume.

Get a power soak or get an amp with a good master volume.

A little more info would help...for instance what size venues? What type music? Do you have a sound man out front? How loud is the drummer? Do you mic him off too?

There are just too many variables from info given to give decent advice.

As from a guitar players point of view...I don't think any amp sounds good until it's pushed somewhat. If that means getting a smaller amp then so be it...but I like to push my amp, I don't think the sound/tone blossoms at low volumes. There really is a difference in low volume and pushing your amp on the verge, I'm not technical enough to describe it, but some will know what I mean.

I do understand wanting to keep volume lower on stage too...it's easier to hear the monitors, and band doesn't go home with tinnitis or whatever.

3 solutions: power soak, lower powered amp, or put an acrylic baffle in front of the amp. Lower stage volume is the only way to go and I've heard both sides but keeping that "magic" tone is important too.

A little more info would help...for instance what size venues? What type music? Do you have a sound man out front? How loud is the drummer? Do you mic him off too?

There are just too many variables from info given to give decent advice.

As from a guitar players point of view...I don't think any amp sounds good until it's pushed somewhat. If that means getting a smaller amp then so be it...but I like to push my amp, I don't think the sound/tone blossoms at low volumes. There really is a difference in low volume and pushing your amp on the verge, I'm not technical enough to describe it, but some will know what I mean.

I do understand wanting to keep volume lower on stage too...it's easier to hear the monitors, and band doesn't go home with tinnitis or whatever.

answers: We play small clubs (couple hundred people), rock music, sound man half the time other times we do our own, drummer is mic'd -- he plays a roland kit through the PA.

The thing is, I've tried smaller amps (pro junior and blues jr) and they sound small/boxy to me. I have not found a small amp that sounds decent, and by small I mean 15 watts or smaller.

3 solutions: power soak, lower powered amp, or put an acrylic baffle in front of the amp. Lower stage volume is the only way to go and I've heard both sides but keeping that "magic" tone is important too.

Can anybody give me some brands/models of power soaks? Is this the same thing as an attenuator?

3 solutions: power soak, lower powered amp, or put an acrylic baffle in front of the amp. Lower stage volume is the only way to go and I've heard both sides but keeping that "magic" tone is important too.

I have been tempted to try the acrylic shield but don't want to carry more gear. Does anyone turn their amp backwards, face the wall? With open back combo you'll still get some sound coming toward the front and the big sound would be dispersed against the wall.

The thing is, I've tried smaller amps (pro junior and blues jr) and they sound small/boxy to me. I have not found a small amp that sounds decent, and by small I mean 15 watts or smaller.

I hear ya.

That's exactly why I lug around my 4x10 Fender Concert amp (60 tube watts) to get a nice full spectrum sound...but I can't turn the volume much past 3 or 3.5 which doesn't give me much in the way of tube compression and harmonic content. The best compromise I've been able to come up with is to use a really great overdrive pedal so I can get all those tonal qualities at relatively low volume. Hence my 'quest' to try out just about every pedal I can get my hands on (and afford).

Right now I've settled on the Garagetone Drivetrain. It adds just enough compression and gain to sound almost identical to a pushed tube amp. And with separate treble/bass controls, it still sounds 'full' and not 'boxy' at all.

That's just my experience, good luck in your journey.

JMHO.

I usually have my BF Deluxe at 3, maybe up to 4 for leads. The tone isn't as good as at 7 or 8, but stage volume is more important to us. The amp still sounds really good.

I think people in the bar would notice the increase in volume more than the change in tone.

The thing is, I've tried smaller amps (pro junior and blues jr) and they sound small/boxy to me.

So don't shop for a "small" amp. Shop for a "quiet" one.

Get a head that's 15W or less (or more is fine, as long as you get the sound you want at modest volumes), and go ahead and play it through a big cab.

Invest in a good attenuator. If you get a really good one, attenuating will NOT affect your tone. With an attenuator, you can always have the amp set to the sweet spot regardless of venue size. That's what I do and it works great. Most gigs I don't even attenuate the signal, but I have it hooked up in case anyone tells me I'm too loud. My amp is always set exactly where I want it.

Can anybody give me some brands/models of power soaks? Is this the same thing as an attenuator?

Yes. THD, Weber, several others out there make 'em. It's not the most complicated circuit ever. Frankly, I think every tube amp of 50W or more should have them as a built-in feature. It's very rare that you need all of that power from your stage amp in this day and age.

Can anybody give me some brands/models of power soaks? Is this the same thing as an attenuator?

Yes, it's the same thing. I use the "Iron Man" attenuator by Tone King. It's expensive, but it's great and I also I use a Tone King amp (Meteor). Works with any amp though, and I also use it with my 62 Fender brown Deluxe.

Other highly touted ones are the Aracom, Faustine, and Alex. Of these, the Alex is cheapest, but supposedly really good.

The Ultimate Attenuator also gets raves. I had one and thought it sounded great, but sold it because the impedance mismatch makes me nervous.

Feel free to try others as well, but the ones I mentioned are considered the most transparent.

I have a couple nice tube amps (DRRI and a Vibroverb RI) but I never get the volume knobs up past 3 at our gigs. My band is adamant about keeping stage volume to a minimum. The other guitarist plays a SS amp, so volume is not an issue for him.

We mic our amps at nearly every gig. I understand the idea behind keeping stage volume to a minimum and I guess it's a good thing in that respect, but at the same time, I don't feel I'm getting the best tone out of my tube amps at such low volumes. I use pedals for dirt.

Anybody else gigging with their amp volume this low?

When you get paid to play, the person paying you calls the shots. That includes the Volume that you play at.

Just smile and tell'em 'thanks' when they hand over the dough.

If worrying about your tone is where you are at, do some recording.
SELL them a CD of what you are made of.

So don't shop for a "small" amp. Shop for a "quiet" one.

Get a head that's 15W or less (or more is fine, as long as you get the sound you want at modest volumes), and go ahead and play it through a big cab.


+10 db!!!

When you get paid to play, the person paying you calls the shots. That includes the Volume that you play at.

Just smile and tell'em 'thanks' when they hand over the dough.

If worrying about your tone is where you are at, do some recording.
SELL them a CD of what you are made of.

I think you misunderstand. We're not a loud band by any means. I'm talking stage volume -- not volume through the PA. If we didn't mic our amps we could set them a little louder, but controlling the overall sound obviously trumps that.

I hear ya.

That's exactly why I lug around my 4x10 Fender Concert amp (60 tube watts) to get a nice full spectrum sound...but I can't turn the volume much past 3 or 3.5 which doesn't give me much in the way of tube compression and harmonic content. The best compromise I've been able to come up with is to use a really great overdrive pedal so I can get all those tonal qualities at relatively low volume. Hence my 'quest' to try out just about every pedal I can get my hands on (and afford).

Right now I've settled on the Garagetone Drivetrain. It adds just enough compression and gain to sound almost identical to a pushed tube amp. And with separate treble/bass controls, it still sounds 'full' and not 'boxy' at all.

That's just my experience, good luck in your journey.

JMHO.

Using quality overdrive pedals has been my approach as well. I'm using a couple Fulltone pedals. I may check into the drivetrain pedal.

I think you misunderstand. We're not a loud band by any means. I'm talking stage volume -- not volume through the PA. If we didn't mic our amps we could set them a little louder, but controlling the overall sound obviously trumps that.

I find 9 times out of ten, low volume, mic'd, gets you better overall sound than amps blaring on stage. Even if you're getting fabulous tone with your amp cranked, it's only going to be good in a small part of the venue. The rest, it'll be too loud, or not loud enough, or ice picky, or whatever.

I have a blue jr NOS that I like at low stage volume. I also just picked up a 25w Line6 DT25 that sounds fabulous at low volume It's gonna get its stage debut in a week-long engagement at the Grizzly Rose.

I think you misunderstand. We're not a loud band by any means. I'm talking stage volume -- not volume through the PA. If we didn't mic our amps we could set them a little louder, but controlling the overall sound obviously trumps that.

Consider this:
A venue will tolerate X amount of DB before they pull the plug on you.
(Stage volume) +(P A volume) = X what they will tolerate from you (or anybody else).

If said stage volume increases more than the P A volume decreases, they may not ask you back.

IMHO it ain't fair being penalized for wanting to give the audience GOOD TONE. :)

My main amp has been a 65 watt Music Man with a Half-Power switch.
I put the Master up about 8, channel at about 6 and, work the rest from my guitar.

Consider this:
A venue will tolerate X amount of DB before they pull the plug on you.
(Stage volume) +(P A volume) = X what they will tolerate from you (or anybody else).

If said stage volume increases more than the P A volume decreases, they may not ask you back.

IMHO it ain't fair being penalized for wanting to give the audience GOOD TONE. :)

My main amp has been a 65 watt Music Man with a Half-Power switch.
I put the Master up about 8, channel at about 6 and, work the rest from my guitar.

I get what you're saying, but trust me, I know enough not to be THAT guy (that is too loud -- and my bandmates would kill me). I almost think we're too quiet on stage, which was the reason for my original post. On a side note, do you mic your amp, because a 65 watt amp at 8 master, 6 channel seems like it would be really loud, unless you have your guitar volume turned way down.

One positive: With low stage volume, maybe when you get to my age you'll be able to hear crickets chirp and the telephone ring. The good part for me is that when nobody else is at home to terrify, I can still crank up the old Bandmaster to where I can hear it.

Theres really no guarantee that once you find the right tone at stage volume, that it will have the same great tone once it is mic'd and comming out to everyone thru the PA.

In actuallity, your tone could already be good after being mic'd...but you don't know, cuz your onstage only hearing your amp. My experience is this...your great tone can change from venue to venue as it really depends on the overal sound mix onstage or in the mix of the PA. I find that my guitar amp sound onstage is at it's best, when it's blended/balanced with everyone else onstage.

Try getting a really good audio of you all playing live and see what it sounds like.

I get what you're saying, but trust me, I know enough not to be THAT guy (that is too loud -- and my bandmates would kill me). I almost think we're too quiet on stage, which was the reason for my original post. On a side note, do you mic your amp, because a 65 watt amp at 8 master, 6 channel seems like it would be really loud, unless you have your guitar volume turned way down.

But I do it on Half-Power.
And yes, I back it down on my guitar.

When I do mic my amp, my first pick these days is a Sennheiser E609.

Stage volume is a real tight-rope. Between your Band mates, the crowd and the club owners, it can get to be far more of a hassle then it should be.

I must confess: more than once I have sucked it up and sacrificed tone for the sake of 'Band politics'.

This where a lot those $200.00+ OD pedals earn their stripes.
I have to play quietly all the time but I still like some gain - even on a jazz gig.

Low gainer - Barber 'LTD silver' or Analogman modded 'TS9'.
Medium gainer - Lovepedal 'amp 11'.
High Gain - Landgraff 'Mo D' or Catalin Bread 'DLS'.
Fuzz - Fulltone 'soul bender' or Demeter 'fuzzulator'.
(there are others but these are what I'm into right now)

I use these into anything from a Pro jr. (15 watts maybe) to a GT 'solo 45' (about 40 watts).

*Occasionally for a quiet gig, if I feel like lugging it, I'll use 50 watt plexi style head into a 1x12 with a Variac and cut the wall voltage in half.

This where a lot those $200.00+ OD pedals earn their stripes.
I have to play quietly all the time but I still like some gain - even on a jazz gig.

Low gainer - Barber 'LTD silver' or Analogman modded 'TS9'.
Medium gainer - Lovepedal 'amp 11'.
High Gain - Landgraff 'Mo D' or Catalin Bread 'DLS'.
Fuzz - Fulltone 'soul bender' or Demeter 'fuzzulator'.
(there are others but these are what I'm into right now)

I use these into anything from a Pro jr. (15 watts maybe) to a GT 'solo 45' (about 40 watts).

*Occasionally for a quiet gig, if I feel like lugging it, I'll use 50 watt plexi style head into a 1x12 with a Variac and cut the wall voltage in half.

What kind of sound do you get out of your pro junior? I've gigged with mine a couple times and love the portability of it, but I can't get over the boxiness of it.

We mic our amps at nearly every gig. I understand the idea behind keeping stage volume to a minimum and I guess it's a good thing in that respect, but at the same time, I don't feel I'm getting the best tone out of my tube amps at such low volumes. I use pedals for dirt.

I use an attenuator to keep the stage volume low while using the amp to get natural overdrive. It's the best of both worlds.

I use an attenuator to keep the stage volume low while using the amp to get natural overdrive. It's the best of both worlds.

I hear good things and bad things about attenuators. I have no experience with them. Do they damage your tube amp at all? And do they color the sound?

Sorry, I'm igorant in this area. Really appreciate the information I'm getting in this thread, though.

I hear you on small amps, which is why I will not use a small tube amp. They sound tiny. I gotta have a full spectrum sound, even at low volumes. That's why I went SS for the gigs where I can't crank my Marshall a little. My head is only a 30 watter, but it's still gotta get a little juiced up to sound it's best. Lots of gigs it's too loud for.

I tried Pro Jr., got some great sounds recording, but could never enjoy playing it live. Tried an AC15, not enough clean headroom to gig with, and I really don't dig the Vox sound. I've played through loads of low watt tube amps from off the shelf to boutique to vintage, and just don't dig 'em.

I got a Roland Cube 60. Use it on 100-150 gigs a year for the last two years. Direct side by side A/B with a nice tube amp, it might not be perfect, but it will turn out some DAMN fine tones.

I set it on the Tweed model, and then treat it like a regular amp. Bass/Mid/Treble/Presence plus gain and master.

With the modeling, and seperate gain and master, I can get dynamic tones even at restaurant volume levels. Want it to be clean when you lay off, and dirty and compress a little when you dig hard? It'll do that. Whisper quiet. It'll also blow windows out if you need it to, and takes up almost no space on stage. It's also light and easy to move. I love mine. It's been a life saver.

I also get a huge charge out of telling guys it's digital when they ask me what kind of tubes it has after I finish a set. It's fun.

If you just HAVE to stay with tubes, the attenuator idea might work for you. I like the Dr. Z Airbrake a lot. Or, as Old Cane suggested, an amp with a properly functioning master volume might be the ticket. Boogie makes some great ones. Don't be fooled by the whole Triple Rectifier sound, they build some very nice sounding and versatile amps for guys that want to do a lot more than "chugga-chugga".

Another great suggestion was a small amp, big cab. Most tiny amps sound like crap because they are tiny. Run the same amp through some real speakers, say a 2x12 cab, and it sounds fabulous. Might be worth trying some out.

A less efficient speaker will get you there.

JJ

I hear you on small amps, which is why I will not use a small tube amp. They sound tiny. I gotta have a full spectrum sound, even at low volumes. That's why I went SS for the gigs where I can't crank my Marshall a little. My head is only a 30 watter, but it's still gotta get a little juiced up to sound it's best. Lots of gigs it's too loud for.

I tried Pro Jr., got some great sounds recording, but could never enjoy playing it live. Tried an AC15, not enough clean headroom to gig with, and I really don't dig the Vox sound. I've played through loads of low watt tube amps from off the shelf to boutique to vintage, and just don't dig 'em.

I got a Roland Cube 60. Use it on 100-150 gigs a year for the last two years. Direct side by side A/B with a nice tube amp, it might not be perfect, but it will turn out some DAMN fine tones.

I set it on the Tweed model, and then treat it like a regular amp. Bass/Mid/Treble/Presence plus gain and master.

With the modeling, and seperate gain and master, I can get dynamic tones even at restaurant volume levels. Want it to be clean when you lay off, and dirty and compress a little when you dig hard? It'll do that. Whisper quiet. It'll also blow windows out if you need it to, and takes up almost no space on stage. It's also light and easy to move. I love mine. It's been a life saver.

I also get a huge charge out of telling guys it's digital when they ask me what kind of tubes it has after I finish a set. It's fun.

If you just HAVE to stay with tubes, the attenuator idea might work for you. I like the Dr. Z Airbrake a lot. Or, as Old Cane suggested, an amp with a properly functioning master volume might be the ticket. Boogie makes some great ones. Don't be fooled by the whole Triple Rectifier sound, they build some very nice sounding and versatile amps for guys that want to do a lot more than "chugga-chugga".

Another great suggestion was a small amp, big cab. Most tiny amps sound like crap because they are tiny. Run the same amp through some real speakers, say a 2x12 cab, and it sounds fabulous. Might be worth trying some out.

Good info -- thanks. My backup amp is a Roland Blues Cube (30 watts) -- I've used it for a few gigs and frankly, it's pretty damn good for a SS amp. But it isn't quite actual tube good and it lacks the Fender chime, which I like.

Using my pro Jr. with a bigger cab would no doubt be the ticket, but I hate the thought of adding another piece of gear to carry. I'm the band's utility player -- I play two electrics and an acoustic (and harmonica) already. I'm packing more gear than anybody else as it is. :roll:

Theres really no guarantee that once you find the right tone at stage volume, that it will have the same great tone once it is mic'd and comming out to everyone thru the PA.

In actuallity, your tone could already be good after being mic'd...but you don't know, cuz your onstage only hearing your amp. My experience is this...your great tone can change from venue to venue as it really depends on the overal sound mix onstage or in the mix of the PA. I find that my guitar amp sound onstage is at it's best, when it's blended/balanced with everyone else onstage.

Try getting a really good audio of you all playing live and see what it sounds like.

I couldn't agree more with this whole statement. This is the kind of thing that I have been experiencing too. Depending on the venues and the audience both things altogether, your tone and the adjustments you are used to to do on your amp will surely vary a lot.

I don't get my dirty sounds from the amp and I just rely on my OD pedals for that. It makes a lot more sense for me to have a clean canvas to work with, and the use of different OD pedals also give me different tone textures to experiment with.

Of course YMMV!

So, from what you're telling us...electronic drums...they can just turn him down...weird situation to say the least. When I hear a band I expect some volume. When I play in a band, it's not going to be quiet.

You're in a tough situation. First suggestion: build some baffles, I'd start with two. You just need a frame, some cloth, and some type filler all available at local cloth shops. Place one on the side towards the drummer, the other angled across the front towards the side wall of the stage, away from the rest of the band. You'd be surprised...yes, it may look weird on stage, but you can really crank your amp and keep the level down on stage.

Secondly: different amp. Lots of good suggestions above, I would try a Princeton or a new Mustang series. I know you like tubes, but I hear the Mustangs do a good imitation.

Last, and hardest: different band?

Hang in there, let us know what you do?

What kind of sound do you get out of your pro junior? I've gigged with mine a couple times and love the portability of it, but I can't get over the boxiness of it.

Remember, we're talking quiet gigs here.
As I mentioned - depending on the gig - I'll use anything from a Pjr. to a 45 watter. The gigs I bring the Pjr. to I don't necessarily need to sound 'full' - ?
Two things about my Pro jr. -
1) I put a 12" in mine (didn't even change the baffle, skipped one screw and redrilled another - fits fine).
2) My Pro jr is from the 1st year of production. I've noticed that all the tweed stuff that Fender designed new or re-issued sounds better in the first few runs than in subsequent years (just my observation). Consequently my Pjr. isn't really all that boxy sounding.

Those pedals I mentioned, especially the DLS, Amp 11 and Landgraff go a LONG WAY to filling out my sound. And frankly it has more to do with how and what parts I play.

*Personally I love the boxiness of any small combo. Jesse Ed Davis, Leslie West, Joe Walsh and Pete Townshend seem to agree.

So, from what you're telling us...electronic drums...they can just turn him down...weird situation to say the least. When I hear a band I expect some volume. When I play in a band, it's not going to be quiet.

You're in a tough situation. First suggestion: build some baffles, I'd start with two. You just need a frame, some cloth, and some type filler all available at local cloth shops. Place one on the side towards the drummer, the other angled across the front towards the side wall of the stage, away from the rest of the band. You'd be surprised...yes, it may look weird on stage, but you can really crank your amp and keep the level down on stage.

Secondly: different amp. Lots of good suggestions above, I would try a Princeton or a new Mustang series. I know you like tubes, but I hear the Mustangs do a good imitation.

Last, and hardest: different band?

Hang in there, let us know what you do?

Finding a different band isn't an option for me. These guys are great -- and we're a good band. If I had to choose, I'd choose to play with these guys and stay at very low volume.

They are right -- keeping stage volume down is key. Most bands play way to damn loud on stage. The vocals don't have to strain and we get a lot better stage mix where everybody can hear what's going on. I'm in total agreement with that. But it makes my tube amps pretty much worthless. :sad:

I'm starting to think a tube amp may not be conducive to this kind of low volume set up. It would take a 5-10 watt tube amp with a bigger cab. I just bought a DRRI (22 watts) but it's going to be way too loud. Love the amp, but maybe it wasn't such a good buy for my needs. Perhaps something like a Vox nighttrain?

I have a gig coming this weekend -- we'll see how the DRRI does at low volume with dirt pedals.

I usually have my BF Deluxe at 3, maybe up to 4 for leads. The tone isn't as good as at 7 or 8, but stage volume is more important to us. The amp still sounds really good.

I think people in the bar would notice the increase in volume more than the change in tone.

I do exactly the same thing with my BF and feel the same way about volume vs. tone, you can play around with an unlimited amount things to improve your tone, but being in a band that can keep the overall volume down is priceless and it's a true pleasure to be in one. You can always get loud, but turning it down is a very difficult task for most bands.

Volume knob on the guitar helps a bunch too.

I do exactly the same thing with my BF and feel the same way about volume vs. tone, you can play around with an unlimited amount things to improve your tone, but being in a band that can keep the overall volume down is priceless and it's a true pleasure to be in one. You can always get loud, but turning it down is a very difficult task for most bands.

Volume knob on the guitar helps a bunch too.

This gives me some hope -- I'm going to set my Deluxe volume near three this weekend and see how it goes. I couldn't agree more with your statement on the joy of playing in a band where the volume stays down. The only downside (and the reason for this thread) is it can take away some of the benefits of a tube amp.

But it looks like there are some options:

-- Attenuator
-- Small head/amp w/bigger cab
-- high quality OD pedals
-- smaller amp altogether or one with a master volume
-- less efficient speaker

Thanks everybody for the input. I'm fairly new to the band scene, and I'm learning a lot from you all.

I was looking at plexi shields online and one site had a demo with db meter.
Amp alone was reading 109db.
Just placing a shield in front of the amp lowered reading to 100/101db.
They went on to put absorption panels behind and a cover, which then gave a reading of 90db.

This gives me some hope -- I'm going to set my Deluxe volume near three this weekend and see how it goes. I couldn't agree more with your statement on the joy of playing in a band where the volume stays down. The only downside (and the reason for this thread) is it can take away some of the benefits of a tube amp.

But it looks like there are some options:

-- Attenuator
-- Small head/amp w/bigger cab
-- high quality OD pedals
-- smaller amp altogether or one with a master volume
-- less efficient speaker

Thanks everybody for the input. I'm fairly new to the band scene, and I'm learning a lot from you all.


I think with a little tinkering you will find that the DR is very hard to beat, If you haven't already checked the bias settings, the DR is set very cool from the factory. After i re-biased mine i found the amp's "sweet Spot" went from maybe 6-8 to about 3.5 to whatever, never had it past 6 more than 2 or 3 times. I also use a modded ts9 for dirt and it is almost like it was made for that exact amp, i play tele's strats and a Les Pual (sometimes) through it and all are equally great in their own right. I Also put in a Weber 12F150 which i really like the sound of, especially after it broke in.

After a few Gigs you will get to the point that you will be able to dial in great tone almost every time. Work with it some, once you find what's missing you'll love the amp, and at 40 pounds with the weber it is great for hualing around.

I would try facing the amp at the rear wall, or a foldiong sheet of lexan. Acrylic costs less but breaks much more easily.

You could drill holes on Lexan and bolt hinges to it so your sheild would fold up small. It won't break.

I hear good things and bad things about attenuators. I have no experience with them. Do they damage your tube amp at all? And do they color the sound?

Sorry, I'm igorant in this area. Really appreciate the information I'm getting in this thread, though.

There's nothing bad about attenuators, just as there is nothing bad about amps. There are bad attenuators and good attenuators. Neither will damage your amp. The higher end attenuators are very transparent and do not use resistors to attenuate, so they don't affect your tone even if you use extreme levels of attenuation (other than the fact that quiet sounds are different from loud sounds). That's not a shortcoming of the attenuator though, that's just a law of acoustics (Fletcher-Munson curve).

Cheaper (i.e. less transparent) attenuators can be good as long as you're only attenuating a little bit.

I must admit, we are one of the quietest bands locally, but yet I still get the chance to crank a 50w Valve amp in a small pub :shock:
Some of the old social clubs are a bit different as they like it very low volume, and as they are generally a wider open space with dance floor, the secret then is spread of sound not volume.
A princeton Reverb is a fantastic tone machine and at only 12-15w stood on a stand mic`d they sound fantastic, certainly not boxy.
I never use attenuators as I have not found any that does not change the amp tone, with the amount of pedals available I fail to see how there is not a tone at any level nowadays that you can be happy with.:wink:

I just don't follow some of the logic here. Ok,

-I like my amp at 6
-it's too loud at 6
-it's loud enough at 3
-I don't like my amp at 3
-a power soak lets me run my amp at 6 but sound like it's at 3

Looks pretty simple but my wife says I am simple. So there.

^^ :mrgreen: ^^

That pretty much sums it up.

The smartest thing I ever did to keep that power tube goodness without killing your bandmates' ears was to turn my guitar's volume down. Try it sometime, it sounds great.

I just don't follow some of the logic here. Ok,

-I like my amp at 6
-it's too loud at 6
-it's loud enough at 3
-I don't like my amp at 3
-a power soak lets me run my amp at 6 but sound like it's at 3

Looks pretty simple but my wife says I am simple. So there.

There were many more options discussed in this thread than just the attenuator route. I'm interested in hearing all the options. Simple enough for you?... Ok, thanks.

I hear good things and bad things about attenuators. I have no experience with them. Do they damage your tube amp at all? And do they color the sound?

Sorry, I'm igorant in this area. Really appreciate the information I'm getting in this thread, though.

As long as you're careful to make sure your impedance loads are matched to what the amp expects, just like a cabinet, they won't damage the tubes. Everything else depends on how you're using the attenuator.

In my case, I'm using a Weber Mass Driver to bring the volume down about 30-50% from an amp that's up just to the "sweet spot." That's less than halfway on the amp's volume knob. Most people will be using it this way, and you're not going to affect tube life or noticeably color the sound.

If you're using it to max out the amp volume/saturation and still keep stage volume down, then running the amp flat out will shorten tube life, and you'll notice a slight roll-off of highs - which may or may not be a bad thing depending on the amp.

I'm starting to think a tube amp may not be conducive to this kind of low volume set up. It would take a 5-10 watt tube amp with a bigger cab.

I did a LOT of shows with a 5 watt Epi Valve Jr. stack. Crank it up, mic it and let 'er rip!

The smartest thing I ever did to keep that power tube goodness without killing your bandmates' ears was to turn my guitar's volume down. Try it sometime, it sounds great.

That doesn't work. I use my guitar volume knob constantly and I specifically use it to clean up my tone. It excels at that. The sound gets cleaner and slightly less loud, but if your amp is set to the "sweet spot" and you turn down your guitar volume, it's no longer in the "sweet spot" at least for overdrive.

That doesn't work. I use my guitar volume knob constantly and I specifically use it to clean up my tone. It excels at that. The sound gets cleaner and slightly less loud, but if your amp is set to the "sweet spot" and you turn down your guitar volume, it's no longer in the "sweet spot" at least for overdrive.


Bingo!

There were many more options discussed in this thread than just the attenuator route. I'm interested in hearing all the options. Simple enough for you?... Ok, thanks.

Sure. Build/buy/carry all sorts of gobbldygook around with you. Let me know how how you like a SS amp and a giant pedalboard. Once you get done playing around for a solution, get an attenuator for your amp and be be happy. For some reason everybody seems to fight what's right in front of them. Then when they finally do it, and are happy, it's been so long they think it was their own idea. So I'll just say right now; you are welcome.

If you don't want to use the attenuator, then perhaps try a less-efficient speaker, a drive pedal that resembles your normal tone (ie- catalinbread formula 5 for tweed), and/or find a way to move less air or deflect it, such as angling your amp or Weber beam blockers. Sometimes people interpret the brightness from an amp as its volume... deflecting sound can help here.

I love to use my Bassman in any and all situations, but sometimes "Bassman on 6" is just too much. The FN5 pedal saves me because it closely matches that tone. There are many pedals that help different amps sound "natural" at lower volumes. Another example is the Open Road pedal helped my DRRI sound natural at lower volumes... you get the point.

As mentioned before in the thread, tone on stage doesn't exactly equate to tone in the audience, mic'd or not. So don't be afraid to try different methods of driving your amp. Keep in mind that people aren't necessarily there for your tone. Blasphemy, I know. This is hard for me to deal with sometimes. Haha

"sometimes "Bassman on 6" is just too much."

That's nicely understated.

Sure. Build/buy/carry all sorts of gobbldygook around with you. Let me know how how you like a SS amp and a giant pedalboard. Once you get done playing around for a solution, get an attenuator for your amp and be be happy. For some reason everybody seems to fight what's right in front of them. Then when they finally do it, and are happy, it's been so long they think it was their own idea. So I'll just say right now; you are welcome.

Fought that battle with my DRRI... got the attenuator and no more fighting.

Sure. Build/buy/carry all sorts of gobbldygook around with you. Let me know how how you like a SS amp and a giant pedalboard. Once you get done playing around for a solution, get an attenuator for your amp and be be happy. For some reason everybody seems to fight what's right in front of them. Then when they finally do it, and are happy, it's been so long they think it was their own idea. So I'll just say right now; you are welcome.

I'll look into attenuators -- that's new territory for me. If it works out, of course I'll say it was my idea all along. :cool:

If you don't want to use the attenuator, then perhaps try a less-efficient speaker, a drive pedal that resembles your normal tone (ie- catalinbread formula 5 for tweed), and/or find a way to move less air or deflect it, such as angling your amp or Weber beam blockers. Sometimes people interpret the brightness from an amp as its volume... deflecting sound can help here.

I love to use my Bassman in any and all situations, but sometimes "Bassman on 6" is just too much. The FN5 pedal saves me because it closely matches that tone. There are many pedals that help different amps sound "natural" at lower volumes. Another example is the Open Road pedal helped my DRRI sound natural at lower volumes... you get the point.

As mentioned before in the thread, tone on stage doesn't exactly equate to tone in the audience, mic'd or not. So don't be afraid to try different methods of driving your amp. Keep in mind that people aren't necessarily there for your tone. Blasphemy, I know. This is hard for me to deal with sometimes. Haha

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

As mentioned before in the thread, tone on stage doesn't exactly equate to tone in the audience, mic'd or not. So don't be afraid to try different methods of driving your amp. Keep in mind that people aren't necessarily there for your tone. Blasphemy, I know. This is hard for me to deal with sometimes. Haha

This is true, which is why most of the time I use the line out on the attenuator to give me a "speaker emulated" DI to the PA. One BIG advantage of running this way is that it allows me to adjust my stage volume without affecting the signal going to the PA. That makes life easier for the sound tech and myself.

Not a solution, but I recently played a gig with my Roland Spirit 50 not mic'd. I had the volume set to where it sounded good to me on stage, but between sets the audience told me I needed to turn my guitar WAY up. So I did, and the audience thought it sounded great, but it was scary loud on stage. The mix was good down below but I couldn't hear anyone else but my guitar, and I almost killed my poor keyboardist sitting in front of the amp. Quite distracting......but man what a sweet sweet tone!! :)

drummer is mic'd -- he plays a roland kit through the PA.

there's your problem right there. what does he sound like on stage with a "real" set? for example, i play a lot of small gigs where sometimes not even the bass drum gets mic'd BUT it's a good bass drum and the guy knows how (and when) to kick it. i wonder if your guy can. or why he doesn't want to.

have you ever done it "your way?" if you have and the audience doesn't let you know...

when i mix for such an act i use the stage sound plus the PA. only if i "couldn't mix" (to the sweet spot) would i ever tell any particular instrument to play lower. i.e., of course i can overwhelm whoever is loudest and make a mix, but not if then the whole thing is then too loud.

sounds like you're with some guys who maybe want all monitors--i've seen, maybe twice, some fusion do this, i don't think it's works out so well, but different strokes for different folks.

if your sole problem is doing your way but your way is constantly told that it's too loud... figure where it's too loud both in rooms and in music and who (consider all sources) is saying it... if you believe it too then try the above solutions of other posters also you can try facing your spkrs into the back wall.

but your "source" may have different motives, i.e., visual, geek, etc., than *your* sound (on and off stage).

get a new band.

p.s. i have used small amps (all kinds of amps) and had guys (drummers and the like) look at my knobs and tell me it's "going to be" too loud because it may be on 6-8 or whatever WITHOUT LISTENING. never noticing later that the snare is killing everyone. idiots. i know a few drummers who freak out if you try to set up anywhere near them; last week a guy stores all his cases right where i would setup FORCING me to ask him to move it over.

now, after what i've said, DIG THIS: i hardly ever get asked to turn down but i get asked to turn up twice as much, when anything IS said. i play Bloomfield/Ford type stuff. i've been to "famous" schools and played in big bands (Army, Japan).

experiment, if they'll let you. sounds like some control freak/drama queen will freak out, though.

i do have one box (ethos) that really doesn't sound bad straight into the PA! while it sounds ok, i don't get the interplay--so i don't do it--but it does work.

i get complemented lots on my sound (stock 62 MIJ tele, ethos, bfsr or bandit. (bfsr with cts alnicos is the ****). if i use the bandit i can my lexicon for plate verb and a little always on pitch shift for fake chorus.

seriously, good luck!

btw... i don't get how your solid state guy hasn't any problem you also have--well, yeah i do, but that indicates a problem between both if you, imnsho. i have two amps right now: a bandit and a BFSR (with alnicos). i can get the bandit as loud, but i put 5881s in my sr and saggy rectifier and 12AY, sometimes, rarely, it faces the wall but nearly always i tilt it up (or it will kill people.. that treble thing another poster mentioned)... i'll play minor blues while ppl dine, no problem. but i play with a real drummer, too... and he isn't using brushes though i sometimes wish he would . ;-)

one last thing: i know guys who believe the sound man should control all solo volumes, etc. same guys who take their modeling amp home and set it all up for 5 OD sounds then go the show and suddenly can't adjust ****--all of that IMO is BS. when you step forward or stand up to take a solo in an acoustic setting do not generally play "louder?" or walk up front or stand up to make it better heard? perhaps even to a lone mic? yes you do. sure a soundman may help at times. but it's all making music which ALREADY incorporates sounding good (dynamics within the band setting itself).

sorry for the rant.

the audience told me I needed to turn my guitar WAY up. So I did, and the audience thought it sounded great, but it was scary loud on stage. The mix was good down below but I couldn't hear anyone else but my guitar, and I almost killed my poor keyboardist sitting in front of the amp. Quite distracting......but man what a sweet sweet tone!! :)
so the kb player was part of the good sound out front--as your block--so replace that with some object or a rear wall. maybe for yourself and your band stand or setup the band so this works as much across stage as possible while still sounding good in house sweet spot. like sort of V set up.

study jazz combos. take it from there.

I crank the amp volume up all the way, have my EQ set like I like it and adjust volume and tone variance from the guitar. A lot of times, my guitar is only around Volume 3 or 4, but my sound is almost always great...er, great for me.

This is a fantastic thread!

Everybody's comments are very enlightening, because this is a very subjective topic and sound is both simple and complicated.

Where I am now in my take on things is this, and I in no way feel like I know the correct answer.

Your band has an attitude that can only help you as a musician, you are blessed.

I don't know if I'd agree that a tube amp has to be pushed to sound good. The reason I say this is that I have seen great players with very low stage volume whose tone was very full and round.

I personally think distortion can be a hinderance to improving as a player, and I only say this because in my own experience I started with small amps pushed hard. When I forced myself to play clean, I got much better and my ear started to notice so much more. Having less distortion enabled me to make more tonal distinctions and work with pickup height, an amp stand/proximity, volume & tone knob on guitar, and attack/dynamics in technique.

Part of it may be the cab/speakers, and part may be how well the player can hear himself and the rest of the band. If the band can play according to the room, then it's just a matter of reinforcing if it is needed.

Equipment matched well to your playing will compliment what you put out. Having a nice clean and round tone to build on is the key. I also think that it helps to have a mic on the cab in case your sound needs to be reinforced in the FOH. I personally like a little in my monitor.

Finally, I think that we have to remember that what the audience hears is probably more balanced and powerful and is always thankful if the band is aware that they are not in an arena but a small club.

So I say, decent cab & speaker/s, work w/ guitar volume and tone knob, put amp on a stand so you can hear everybody else and yourself well, mic it, and try practicing at very low volume and see if your ear doesn't become very fond of the nuance you can continue cultivating with your dynamics and technique.

Very informative thread, great subject!

I have a couple nice tube amps (DRRI and a Vibroverb RI) but I never get the volume knobs up past 3 at our gigs. My band is adamant about keeping stage volume to a minimum. The other guitarist plays a SS amp, so volume is not an issue for him.

We mic our amps at nearly every gig. I understand the idea behind keeping stage volume to a minimum and I guess it's a good thing in that respect, but at the same time, I don't feel I'm getting the best tone out of my tube amps at such low volumes. I use pedals for dirt.

Anybody else gigging with their amp volume this low?

I have both of those amps. While I agree with what's been said about amps blooming and sounding their best as slightly pushed - I've had better luck with that Vibroverb RI at lower volumes than with any amp I've owned (which is why I bring it if I'm unsure about venue size or volume levels). At low volumes I usually turn the bass up on the amp a bit more to compensate for the perceived bass loss that's frequently a factor in these scenarios. Another thing that drastically improved things was replacing the stock Oxford speakers (which can sound kinda farty in the low end) with Reverend Alltones.

In addition to a quality overdrive box, I find that having a good booster and compressor onboard helps with the low volume thing; the booster adds punch and presence and the compressor sort of does the opposite in emulating some of the sag that a pushed tube amp gets - but it's the combination of those circuits at moderate gains that gets me closer to what I want to hear and feel.

Attenuators have come a long way and there's some really good ones out there. That said, I prefer amp shields.

The last thing I want in this type of situation is a bunch of my guitar pumped through a floor monitor blasting up at me. Not only do I not usually dig the sound, but I want mostly the vocals of myself and others in the monitor, maybe some kick drum and bass guitar, but very little other instrumentation.

I've worked as both a musician and with sound and light crews, so I can definitely sit on either side of this particular fence. In these discussions, the prevailing logic always seems to be what's best for the front of the house, which is certainly a huge factor, and absolutely, you want to be respectful of what techs are trying to do and not work against them. However, that does nothing to address how it feels to the musicians on stage; speaking for myself, I'm not gonna get nearly as good a performance if onstage sound isn't given some priority as well. The onstage musician shouldn't be the only one participating in some sort of a compromise here - it should be a two way street with FOH techs, although it often isn't.

Might try using an attenuator so you can tone up the amp and dial down the vol without losing the tone.

I use a Z Brake Lite SA. Works great for that. The SA model is usable on different amps...sits on top.

Get a Peavey Classic 30 and then get this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUCK-KNOB-CARVIN-FENDER-PEAVEY-CRATE-ORANGE-/220889351887?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item336e0806cf#ht_940wt_908



works great.

Get a Peavey Classic 30 and then get this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUCK-KNOB-CARVIN-FENDER-PEAVEY-CRATE-ORANGE-/220889351887?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item336e0806cf#ht_940wt_908



works great.

Why bother putting a volume knob in the effects loop (which comes after the preamp), when the Classic 30 already has a "Post" volume control knob? Am I missing something?

As a veteran participant (drafted, not enlisted) of the "Low Stage Volume" mindset, there are a couple things you can do.

Find an amp that can get you your tone that you like with less output. I have 2 that do a good job of this:

Pignose G40V
Crate V18 1-12

The Pignose just barely handles the low volumes, and the Crate does a better job of it. (Pignose is 40 watts, the Crate is 15 watts)

I have an angled amp stand that basically tilts my amp back like it has kick back legs. I place my amp on the stand, and set it in front of me like a monitor. The amp is then mic'd through the house.

I can get it "close" to sounding nice, but still, you can tell that tubes are begging to be unleashed.

One thing I always wanted to try, but never did, was get a good head like an Egnator Rebel or a THD Univalve (20 and 15 watts respectively), and get a 1-12 ISO cab, so I could crank it up as loud as I wanted, but the volume would be handled via the house. Of course you'd have to be piped through the monitors.

Why bother putting a volume knob in the effects loop (which comes after the preamp), when the Classic 30 already has a "Post" volume control knob? Am I missing something?

"Post" only works on the distortion channel, from what I can tell. Supposedly this thing also works with some Fender amps.

No one here has talked about tilting their amps... that is a must if you want to hear yourself reasonably....and above drummer...

....One thing I always wanted to try, but never did, was get a good head like an Egnator Rebel or a THD Univalve (20 and 15 watts respectively), and get a 1-12 ISO cab, so I could crank it up as loud as I wanted, but the volume would be handled via the house. Of course you'd have to be piped through the monitors.

The Egnator Rebel20 is a beast - seriously have a look at one for bitchin' tube goodness at low volume!!

If you can afford them, the 65Amps resolve all the problems you're experiencing. There are very few of them that have over 22 watts or so, and they sound spectacular at all sorts of different volume ranges, due to the "master voltage" circuitry which is similar to Kevin O' Connor's Power Scaling and Dana Hall's VVR. Nothing small sounding about any of them. Peter Stroud who is Sheryl Crowe's guitar player uses them, as do a bunch of other pros who want low stage volume but juicy guitar tones.

These are expensive amps for a reason, they're made by hand in North Hollywood, USA, with the best parts, transformers, cabinet wood, speakers, etc. They are made to be indestructible on tour.

For gigs where I can not run my Twin, I've had great luck using a Tech21 Blonde into a Fender Jazzmaster Ultralight SS amp. It has a great direct out, too.

I love the sound of a cranked tube amp, but I also love the sound of a good OD pedal, and OD pedals are just so much easier to manage on stage. I have an attenuator, and have used it with my Victoria 20112 to great effect, but I still prefer to use pedals live, since I can go from clean to light dirt to filthy with the click of a few switches, and I can get any of those at nearly any volume.

I have some friends who have taken the low stage volume concept to the max. They run electronic drums, and all instruments through amp modeling pedals directly to the PA. They use in-ear monitors and have virtually no stage volume at all. The sound man has ultimate control, and they achieve a very consistent, well-balanced overall mix.

But something is lost in this approach. It just comes across a bit too sterile for me. I like to have some air moving on the stage. My guitar responds to the positive feedback of some amp volume behind it.

I, too, have come to the conclusion that a modest stage volume is much better than blaring amps. The singers will have a better time of it, all the musicians' ears will be less damaged, and the soundman will have much better control. But you gotta move some air to get it sounding and feeling like a live band.

I use a DRRI with an attenuator and can get that amp overdriven just right at an appropriate volume for any gig, mic'ed or not.

I've been working with some guys who are doing an Allman's Tribute band.... needless to say, the guitars have to sound right... then put them into an open air bar where there is a noise ordinance in the area.... through using their attenuators to good effect/affect, we got the sound up and were able to have everyone on the small stage hear well....

amp placement can also help in this situation.... in working with a religious band (at their church) and everyone using in-ears, there was only one guy with a live amp.... he stuck out like a sore thumb.... i turned his amp to the side and placed the back up against his riser - with a bunch of un-used drape behind it to suck up sound.... i ran a few folds of the drape over the front with an extra mic stand and he had his tone, but was fairly non-existant on stage ...this led to the sound field being too quiet in the center front seats... we added in additional speakers and everyone was happy

now, the last part was a multiple problem.... amp placement can help the player hear better and keep a lower volume....

A less efficient speaker will get you there.

JJ

that's what I was thinking too

I May not be the most experienced, nor the greatest ears, but in my opinion, spend less time worrying about your tone, and more time actually playing. no matter how good your tone is, if you are a crappy player, the audience is going to hate it. id rather hear jimi Hendrix through a 5 watt SS ashton amp than someone who cannot play guitar on a American standard tele through a AD30HTC orange Head, and a PPC212C cabinet, with various effects. its not what you play, its how you play.

I May not be the most experienced, nor the greatest ears, but in my opinion, spend less time worrying about your tone, and more time actually playing. no matter how good your tone is, if you are a crappy player, the audience is going to hate it. id rather hear jimi Hendrix through a 5 watt SS ashton amp than someone who cannot play guitar on a American standard tele through a AD30HTC orange Head, and a PPC212C cabinet, with various effects. its not what you play, its how you play.

I disagree here, for me it's all about tone. i've chased my tone for 20 years before I found what matched my liking. the whole time I chased it i was a decent guitar player but never could enjoy it 100% because i didn't like my tone. No amount of perfection in my performances made it a 100% enjoyable experience without a good tone.. When you have nailed down your perfect tone you can move on and really enjoy playing.

IMHO tone takes the lead here.

When it comes to stage volume v tone I say why not have both, use an amp stand and set your amp where you have the perfect stage volume and the perfect tone. Unfortunately tone is something you work on off-stage and bring with you, ass long as your gear is in good shape it is a constant. stage layout, volume, acoustics, and your performance are always variables at a gig,. Tone, once found, is a constant, which makes it very important to discover earlier than later.

Just my thoughts, I appreciate your perspective as well.

I'm expecting this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/200621057930?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1237wt_905) any day now (maybe today)... it was cheap enough for me to give it a shot.

I'm expecting this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/200621057930?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1237wt_905) any day now (maybe today)... it was cheap enough for me to give it a shot.

I'm interested in hearing what you ave to say about it after you use it some. It won't effect your power tube saturation right? Its a variable resistor between the input and output stages?

hmm, looks too small to be a power soak of any sort. interesting:)

I have the tube cube attenuator and I am not pleased with the tone it sucks out of my amp when used to any large degree. It sits there unused due to it's failure to preserve tone.

I have been tempted to try the acrylic shield but don't want to carry more gear. Does anyone turn their amp backwards, face the wall? With open back combo you'll still get some sound coming toward the front and the big sound would be dispersed against the wall.


I first saw Roy Buchanan point his Vibrolux Reverb backwards in the Silver Dollar in Georgetown DC in 1964 or so.

With an open back cab, it doesn't make that much difference in a small room.

As far as sounding great and having total SPL control I got two words for ya... :wink:

Fractal Axe-Fx (http://www.fractalaudio.com/) :cool:

It's a viable solution for the pesky volume issue for more and more folks these days.

I wouldn't trade mine for all the amps I ever got rid of.

Well, maybe for the JTM 45/100, but I'd buy another Axe ASAP. :lol:

Well, that little box DID come in today...

It works -and that's about the best I can say about it.

Once the tubes warmed up a little it wasn't too bad, but I had to turn the bass up and treble down just to fatten the tone up a little.

It's exactly what I thought: an audio taper pot to reduce the preamp signal going to the power amp. For the 15 bones I forked over for it (best offer feature/free shipping), it was worth it in parts alone.

I WAS able to turn the amp up to 5 (2 max previously), and once the tubes warmed up the tone improved some.

I may look into a Marshall Power Brake -I saw one for around $150 on ebay.

I disagree here, for me it's all about tone. i've chased my tone for 20 years before I found what matched my liking. the whole time I chased it i was a decent guitar player but never could enjoy it 100% because i didn't like my tone. No amount of perfection in my performances made it a 100% enjoyable experience without a good tone.. When you have nailed down your perfect tone you can move on and really enjoy playing.

IMHO tone takes the lead here.

When it comes to stage volume v tone I say why not have both, use an amp stand and set your amp where you have the perfect stage volume and the perfect tone. Unfortunately tone is something you work on off-stage and bring with you, ass long as your gear is in good shape it is a constant. stage layout, volume, acoustics, and your performance are always variables at a gig,. Tone, once found, is a constant, which makes it very important to discover earlier than later.

Just my thoughts, I appreciate your perspective as well.

Yeah, i can definitely see your perspective, and agree to a degree. i'm just saying that some people spend there whole lives chasing a great tone, which is usually a barely audible difference to what they had after their first five years of playing. it is time that could of been spent playing, but what do i know, i'm only one person.

Yeah, i can definitely see your perspective, and agree to a degree. i'm just saying that some people spend there whole lives chasing a great tone, which is usually a barely audible difference to what they had after their first five years of playing. it is time that could of been spent playing, but what do i know, i'm only one person.

yeah you are right there. I spent 3 times that much searching for my tone, and what I was looking for was not that different from what i started with. the hard part was matching what came out of my cab with the idea I had in my head. Once I switched to tubes it got a lot closer. then I switched to a full hollow body from a thinline semi hollow and it got even closer. then i switched from Marshall to Vox and got even closer, throw an amp stand in there and I nailed it:). I was looking for the chime:) at last I can just play guitar now and get past the tonal expedition.

Cheers, yes if you are searching for a tone you don't have it can be a distraction from performance.

High stage volume is nuts....just ask Pete Townsend! of course he is not able to hear your question.:razz:In todays world its just not needed. I and the other guitarist play Tweed Deluxes on 2 to 3 and get great tone with a sennheiser e609 thru the PA and we're golden....great reviews about our sound and tones. I just dont buy any argument for high stage vol. If micing is what the big boys do then that's what i'll do big or small gig. It s the whole band sound that matters not what I hear on stage. You just cant tell what the house sounds like from the stage....ever!

I have a couple nice tube amps (DRRI and a Vibroverb RI) but I never get the volume knobs up past 3 at our gigs. My band is adamant about keeping stage volume to a minimum. The other guitarist plays a SS amp, so volume is not an issue for him.

We mic our amps at nearly every gig. I understand the idea behind keeping stage volume to a minimum and I guess it's a good thing in that respect, but at the same time, I don't feel I'm getting the best tone out of my tube amps at such low volumes. I use pedals for dirt.

Anybody else gigging with their amp volume this low?Low stage volume is a good thing, especially in a small venue, but even in a large one. When Cream was using walls of amps, Clapton and Baker quit playing for a couple of measures, and Bruce didn't even notice.

I use a small 10w tweed style amp, and run it on 7/12 and it has a wonderful sweet spot. Even in smaller rooms I run it on 5/12 and can still drive it. If I have to roll back the tone or volume for clean ballads or something, I can use a clean boost to bring the level back up.

Roy Buchanan used his SF Vibrolux with the V, T, B all on 10, and controlled the volume and tone from his guitar.

You can get a smaller amp if you want natural tube distortion at lower volumes. When we play outdoor shows, which is often, I run my amp at 7.5 and mic it, and use my tube preamp for lead boosts. It sounds great, and I always get asked about my amp or get compliments.

Lower powered amps work for me.. used to use all 100 watt stuff moved down to 40 watt stuff keep the volume around 5 works good... Also for me if the volume is to low I cant really get into it the same way..never have complaints from the bar for being too loud. I also do not use a mic..

I've watched the live music scene change over the last 20-30 years or so, and it kinda makes me sad. I grew up in the days of marshall stacks and SVT's in real world working situations. It worked fine back then as long as you were not crazy nuts with everything dimed. In clubs where lower volume was required we miced everything and used plexi shields in front of our amps. I think alot of the volume problems with bands are inexperience or just no dynamics and not being all that good.
Today, tech has come so far down in prices..you see young bands using ear monitors, small amps barely on, and everything miced up. The sound guy controls it all. The show is kinda like standing back and watching a live stereo..but not as loud as you would have it at home.
I have a friend that worked a leg of a ZZ tour a couple years ago..he told me you could have a regular conversation onstage while they were playing..I love ZZ in all their forms, but I happened to watch a Rockpalast video from years ago of them..full on volume..full on dynamics and true joy happening...today not so much.
I played clubs all over Dallas last year with my Super Reverb on around 6... with a plexi shield leaning in front of my amp and had no problems at all. Crowd happy, club happy, band happy. I get my tone happening and can adjust what goes out front by sliding it to the side..it does indeed add odd artifacts and phase things to my sound when the amp is covered...but it's still fun. This obviously would not work with an ear monitor modern band. The guys I play with are of like mind. I can't imagine playing in band these days doing the kind of blues/rock I do with a 20 watt amp. My hats off to the guys that can do it, and I mean that. Trust me, I'm not "that guy" that cares less about the audience or bandmates and just cranks and makes everyones earls bleed to be cool.
I love a loud rock band with dynamics..that's why I started playing as a kid in the first place. I think those dynamics are really about musicianship..verses the sound guy.

Get a less powerful amp. Basically you should get what matches your use for it instead of a bigger amp .....says the guy that played many small clubs in the 70's with a Marshall Major stack.:shock:

My take on this issue:

There is no point considering your guitar 'tone' in a vacuum.

What I mean by that is, unless you play as a solo performer, your tone must always be considered in terms of the sound of the band in it's entirety.

If you need to crank a massive amp to get your tone, and you are blowing everyone else on stage away with your volume and giving the sound guy no headroom at all to work with when it comes to creating a nice front-of-house mix, then the 'tone' that the audience perceives will always be poor.

This is because the audience is not listening to one guy playing a guitar, they are listening to a whole band.

Any additional 'tone' you get by turning up too loud will result in a net loss of 'tone' from the audience's perspective in terms of the whole band.

Low stage volume is the way to go. Grab a 5w or 10w combo and dime it if you want a 'cranked tube sound' at lower volume. Let the sound engineer do his job.

It took me 10 years of weekly gigging to figure this out. Never said I was smart! The Pros - the band sounds better, makes more money, gets better gigs, audiences enjoy it more. The Cons - I dont get to pretend I'm Angus Young from ACDC any more.

Fair trade.

I have several amps because I love to turn up.
I bring the one that fits the room.
Attenuators are OK as long as you don't scrub off too much.
The speakers have to move some air.
I would rather play a 2 x 12 low power (15 - 30 watt) than a 50w 1 x 12 that is attenuated.

Less efficient speakers also work if they are good sounding.


JJ

That doesn't work. I use my guitar volume knob constantly and I specifically use it to clean up my tone. It excels at that. The sound gets cleaner and slightly less loud, but if your amp is set to the "sweet spot" and you turn down your guitar volume, it's no longer in the "sweet spot" at least for overdrive.

the volume knob trick has never worked for me, for a number of reasons... for lots of guys, its all they ever need.

the volume knob trick has never worked for me, for a number of reasons... for lots of guys, its all they ever need.

It doesn't work for anyone. Let me clarify - I ride my volume knob constantly. I do it for cleaning up the tone or adding more overdrive. It's great for that and I highly recommend it. But for the poster who claimed you can use it to get your overdriven tone at lower volumes - doesn't work. That's not an opinion, that's fact, unless he has his guitar wired up in some magical way that no one else knows about.

I usually find you dont get any more real "volume" from turning your guitar up from 7 to 10... you get more gain. A little more volume maybe. To get more volume, I have to set "rhythm" at a volume knob setting of like 5 or 6, and then turn it up to 10 for leads.. and I dont like the sound of guitars on 5, generally.

I like 10.

But thats just me.

So how do you hear your own guitar over the drummer or over the band, is everyone in the monitors ? 3 is not even on yet...certainly it's not pushing the amp to it's "tonal" point.

I dunno, maybe I'm reading it wrong..who is the one demanding the "adamant" thing ? Seems to me the band level may be too low, even if a sound guy is mic'ing everything.

3 may be ok for comping chords but if you are going to take a solo the gain should come up to stand out over the top of the band, then return back to 3 for comping chords...you need extra on the gas pedal..

So how do you hear your own guitar over the drummer or over the band, is everyone in the monitors ?

My experience is "hearing" your guitar has a lot more to do with position than volume. If it's a combo put that thing on an angled stand, far enough from you so it points at your head. You will hear it and probably more than any other band member. With a 4x12 consider raising it a foot or two.

I have endless stories of band situations where people have their amp at their feet, and even one who was standing behind their amp, and they say they need to turn up because they can't hear themselves.

Also if some one is telling you to turn down, I would bet sight unseen that your amp is pointed right at that person. I just turn my amp a little and they are sure I've turned down.

...3 may be ok for comping chords but if you are going to take a solo the gain should come up to stand out over the top of the band, then return back to 3 for comping chords...you need extra on the gas pedal..

I do turn up for leads so when I'm sound checking rhythm I don't have my volume cranked to lead setting. I have become a big fan of controling my volume with the guitar. Not necessarily a "roll back to clean up" thing, but I just keep my range of volume right at my finger tip. Based on that I will sound check a good rhythm volume that fits the band, and I know I have lead volume just a twist away.

currently, i'm too lazy to read all he posts in this thread, but generally as volume goes up, tone gets better. that's my humble and sincere opinion.

I usually find you dont get any more real "volume" from turning your guitar up from 7 to 10... you get more gain. A little more volume maybe. To get more volume, I have to set "rhythm" at a volume knob setting of like 5 or 6, and then turn it up to 10 for leads.. and I dont like the sound of guitars on 5, generally.

I like 10.

But thats just me.

I agree with you. That's why I like p90's - they're great for working the guitar volume knob because if you turn down the guitar volume, some of the midrange just drops out but they still sound good. They clean up great without getting too thin.

Tele pickups don't sound so good turned down, nor do Filtertrons. Both too thin when turned down.

You can really work the volume knob with p90's.

In fact I set my amp so that my basic rhythm sound is where I want it with the guitar volume on "5"

If I need more drive at any point I turn up to 7, 8, 10 or whatever. Works great, but like I said, only for adding or taking away gain, not for getting "your tone" at lower volumes. That's what attenuators are for.

We had a guy mix our band a while back that really knows his stuff and he told me and the other guitar player that our stage volume (mic'd) should SEEM too loud. We have the uncommon problem of not being loud enough and our tone is too squashed with the drive pedals. By too loud of course not to mean crazy loud just a bit louder than what seems right. It works...it gives the sound man slider play in both directions with out going full on or pulled waaay back.

The best sound guy I've worked with said he didn't care how loud we were. He just warned that if it's "loud and bad" that the people that normally dance close to the stage will leave, but that if "doesn't suck" then they'll like it loud. He also said if the stage volume is loud that he can adjust the venue volume by increasing whoever is too quiet or turn someone down or off if they get way too loud.

After the show, some of our fans said our sound was the best they've heard us. That made me realize this point...

If you're in a tiny venue and/or your sound person and system is questionable, then you may wanna keep your volume down. Tone is subjective. If you have a kick-ass sound guy, then you can crank it... just remember his rule about people dancing in front of you.

Lots of good ideas here. There’ s more than one way to skin a cat. It depends to some degree on the style of music you play and what you mean by good tone. To some posters it seems to mean getting into the tube saturation zone, but it’s also true that you need to work the amp and (importantly) the speaker a little to get a good, lively full sounding clean tone, or to get into that edge of break-up zone where you can get a bit of grit by playing hard or keep it clean by backing off with the pick/fingers or turning down the guitar volume.

I have no experience with attenuators so I won’t comment there except to say that they allow you to work the amp harder at low volume, but not the speaker.

Don’t dismiss small amps just because the Blues Jnr sounds boxy. I’ve played a few Blues/Pro Jnrs and never liked them. Partly it’s the EL84 tubes – 6V6s generally have a fuller tone and much nicer overdrive IMO. Other small amps often have small speakers which is half the problem, and the acoustic properties of a small cab can be a limiting factor, especially if made from cheap particle board. And because they’r e often budget models they can often have cheap and nasty components, especially transformers.

But a well made 10-15W 6V6 amp can sound great at low volume if it’s going into a very good wide range speaker. At a minimum you need a 10” speaker, preferably 12”. It also helps a lot if you can get hold of some nice NOS tubes. Modern Chinese tubes just don’t do it.

I’m mostly gigging with a 10 Watt Laney Cub 10. It’s cheap as chips, not especially well made but sounded ok out of the box, and now I have it sounding much better. I replaced the stock speaker with a Weber 10F150T. Excellent speaker! It takes a long time to break in properly but when it does it sounds as good as a decent 12”. I replaced the tubes with NOS (big improvement), and put a reverb pedal in front as it’s a bit dry sounding without it.

I like to play on the verge of break-up and use this amp unmiked with a rhythm section and for all solo gigs. I also use the quality dirt box approach when I can't turn the amp up enough to overdrive the tubes. A dirt box also gives me options depending on where I'm playing and allows me to have a good clean sound when I want it.

I’m also a big fan of low stage volume, partly because I’m the singer and my voice sounds much better when I’m not pushing it over loud amps. Believe me the audience is going to appreciate good singing and a great vocal tone more than a great guitar tone, but there’ s no reason why you can’t have both.

BTW I have a vintage Brown Super at home which rarely gets taken out. It’s a great sounding amp which I will never sell, but my cheapo Chinese assembled Laney is more portable, less precious, replaceable, gets some grit at lower volume, and after the mods it has a full, warm and clear tone that suits what I play (not necessarily what you play). I don’t feel like I’m slumming it at all. It’s not a great amp – only adequate in stock form – but I’ve learned enough about tubes and speakers over the years to get a lot more from the amp.

If you don’t have that knowledge there are several boutique amp makers out there who do.

My experience is "hearing" your guitar has a lot more to do with position than volume. If it's a combo put that thing on an angled stand, far enough from you so it points at your head. You will hear it and probably more than any other band member. With a 4x12 consider raising it a foot or two.

I have endless stories of band situations where people have their amp at their feet, and even one who was standing behind their amp, and they say they need to turn up because they can't hear themselves.

Also if some one is telling you to turn down, I would bet sight unseen that your amp is pointed right at that person. I just turn my amp a little and they are sure I've turned down.



I do turn up for leads so when I'm sound checking rhythm I don't have my volume cranked to lead setting. I have become a big fan of controling my volume with the guitar. Not necessarily a "roll back to clean up" thing, but I just keep my range of volume right at my finger tip. Based on that I will sound check a good rhythm volume that fits the band, and I know I have lead volume just a twist away.

totally agree with you here, had the same experiences with positioning as well.

I hear good things and bad things about attenuators. I have no experience with them. Do they damage your tube amp at all? And do they color the sound?

Sorry, I'm igorant in this area. Really appreciate the information I'm getting in this thread, though.

Common myth. Attenuator won't damage your amp or " make your tubes wear faster". Cranking your amp wears your tubes faster, which of course you can so if you have an attenuator, but the attenuator does not "cause" the wear in the sense you may have heard.

Common myth. Attenuator won't damage your amp or " make your tubes wear faster". Cranking your amp wears your tubes faster, which of course you can so if you have an attenuator, but the attenuator does not "cause" the wear in the sense you may have heard.

I have a question, solely for my own informational purpose. My Dr. Z RXJR has a MV and the volume in the front. I'm running it clean with pedals, and I'm curious if it'll wear the tubes out faster by setting the front on 4 and keeping it there and just adjusting the MV, or vice versa. I'm not pushing the front to OD, but it just sounds amazing on 4 and adjusting the MV. Just curious, thanks!

Two things about my Pro jr. -
1) I put a 12" in mine (didn't even change the baffle, skipped one screw and redrilled another - fits fine).

Sorry to go on a tangent here, but I've tried a bunch of ways to get a 12" in to my PJ, even a new baffle. You saying you just use the stock baffle (stock 10" cutout??) and jam the 12" where it may?

I could never get the magnet to clear the output tranny in the middle of the chassis.

What 12" fits in yours?

It's a MojoTone 12. No idea the model but the magnet is small. Looking at their website I don't see it anymore. It's an early 90's model.
I did hack up the bottom of the baffle a little bit with a wood chisel and some of the baffle is over the cone.

It's a MojoTone 12. No idea the model but the magnet is small. Looking at their website I don't see it anymore. It's an early 90's model.
I did hack up the bottom of the baffle a little bit with a wood chisel and some of the baffle is over the cone.

Ghetto :cool:

Completely!
Any time a tech looks at it they say "WTF did you do to this thing?"

I don't have time to read every post, so if some of these have already been suggested, please ignor.

1. Pro Junior. I know you think it sounds kinda boxy, but I always got complements on mine. Everyone loved it from sound guys to audience to the rest of the band. Sometimes I used the regular stock, sometimes I brought along a 1X12 cab, either way, sounded great and I was able to crank it up and get everything I wanted out of it.

2. Rather than turn your amp facing the back wall, turn it facing sideways off the stage side. This points the bleed of an open back cab back toward the band, not toward the audience. The back is always a bit quieter too, so you shouldn't be blasting out your drummer either.

3. Try the new Marshal 5W amp. I haven't gigged with one, but hooked a Tele up to one at GC and the thing is a complete fire breathing beast! They go for just $400, all tube, 1X12 speaker that sounds killer. Always worth a shot and for the price...

Stick with your DR and use the amp as a clean slate for you to color as you wish. This is mostly what I do these days with my super reverb. I have it on maybe around 3 for great clean tones, sounds perfect in my country band and have some great Od/distortion boxes on my board, which I've spent hours dialing in so I have a clean boost for no gain solos, a Sparkle drive set to sound basically like my amp at around 5 to 5.5, just getting in to that nice break-up realm, but not pushing too hard yet, a cool cat transparent OD set to slightly higher gain, gets me close to my SR really pushed and a Fulltone OCD for some of the higher gain stuff. Even the studio where I do sessions absolutely loves the sound of my set up and the engineer is not a big fan of peddals, but when dialed in just right, they can sound really cool. I do half my tracking with my amp cranked and half using my boxes, whatever works best for the song.

I've never gigged with baffles. Maybe try it sometime.

I think it depends ultimately on what kind of band you're in and what the audience expects when they come to see you.

I sing and play guitar in a 3-piece Noise Rock band (bassist and drummer are the other two members). I need a loud volume. Our songs were written that way. I'm not talking a 120-watt halfstack cranked but it's certainly louder than most of you suggest. This isn't classic rock cover-band on a Saturday night in a dancehall music. It's balls-to-the-wall, vicious Rock n' Roll and the audience expects that.

I often turn my amp sideways.

Can anybody give me some brands/models of power soaks? Is this the same thing as an attenuator?

Same thing as an attenuator. I use a Dr Z Brake Lite on my BFDR - it installs inside the cab. If you only use the first stage of attenuation (-3 db) the tone doesn't get compromised too much and you can turn up a little more. The more you attenuate the more the tone changes (this is true of all attenuators I've tried).

I also have a Princeton Reverb which I often use for smaller gigs.

I see this thread won't die.

+1 on the attenuator as it looks like the best solution for your situation.

-Jagg

Story of my life Jagg. Six months late and a dollar short.