Need help with monitors

I play in a church band and we need help figuring monitors out. Right now we have two small wall mounted monitors, placement is less than optimal. We also have one 12" wedge monitor. Our budget is very small. I'll probably buy them myself. We have only one monitor channel and it is powered. Eventually we will do a big upgrade but I need a simple solution to help us limp through the status quo. Choices are personal sized monitors on stands or buying another wedge.

I suppose with a little money we could pay someone to run a non-powered line and get some powered monitors. I had a sound engineer advise us against that however. He said there would be too much volume on stage.

I play in a church band and we need help figuring monitors out. Right now we have two small wall mounted monitors, placement is less than optimal. We also have one 12" wedge monitor. Our budget is very small. I'll probably buy them myself. We have only one monitor channel and it is powered. Eventually we will do a big upgrade but I need a simple solution to help us limp through the status quo. Choices are personal sized monitors on stands or buying another wedge.

I suppose with a little money we could pay someone to run a non-powered line and get some powered monitors. I had a sound engineer advise us against that however. He said there would be too much volume on stage.

Self-powered Monitors have Volume controls on them.
You would be able to turn them down as needed.

I just got back from a church gig... they do a musical service every other month..... they just went to in ear monitors.... it's amazing what the stage level went to now.... but, that's why i was there....
here's the system they went with http://www.heartechnologies.com/hb/applications_inear.htm
everyone was direct, so i wound up walking the stage while they rehearsed to see what i could hear at stage level... picked a vocal tip or so and wound up making some quick tweaks to the drum kit(Roland v-pad).....
all in all, a very reasonable price tag for this system, but it's where you are headed at some point.... around 1200$ for a four box setup....

if this isn't feasible, i'd move the mounted monitors and set them down.... if you need to make a stand, 2x4's will work just fine to get them angled.... set the "real" monitor in the middle and then the other two on either side...

what kind of EQ's do you have to work with? this can be a big determiner of what you can do.... if you have a separate EQ for the two paired speakers, run them a little less volume than the main monitor..... build around the "center" of your staging area

sound in churches can be quite problematic as they are usually best for a simple "loud" voice by itself..... some are so expansive they wind up eating everything up and you have to have a sound system..... where i just was had a flown system with subs, and a 48 channel board with 8 aux and 8 groups, .... i used all but one group and one aux and ran the in ear system from FOH, though they had 7 breakdown boxes on stage to do individual mixes.... and yes, it was recorded(one of the aux)

A true consulting engineer/installer of a church system will not only know the needs of the church,budget requirements,and walk/listen to what the sanctuary needs. A reverberant room might not need any thing other than a system to assist on vocal volume over the choir/band.

Take some pics of your church and maybe I could get a clear idea of that your working with. brand and amount of channels ,mixer inputs and output. I would look there first to upgrade if you are limited on outs for multi monitor mix setups. Plus check the placement to those wall mounted monitors. I wall mounted monitors as side fills in a band shell style building to great success when angled and EQ'ed correctly.

You didn't say what the problem is with your present setup. Not loud enough? SOme people can hear and others can't?

What are you running through them? Vocals? Guitars? Electric or acoustic? Bass? Keys?

What else in stage, competing with them? Real drums? Guitar amps? Bass amp?

I was both guitar player and sound engineer at my church in Texas for a year AND I'll be in Cincinatti on business 10/24 - 11/4. When I'm not working, I could maybe stop by for a quick look-see and to throw out some ideas.

First, I gotta say sorry for forgetting about this thread. But in my defense, it doesn't show up when I do a search for my posts. That's weird. Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I just got back from a church gig... they do a musical service every other month..... they just went to in ear monitors....
all in all, a very reasonable price tag for this system, but it's where you are headed at some point.... around 1200$ for a four box setup....


We don't have that kind of money. in fact whatever we do will probably come out of my pocket.


if this isn't feasible, i'd move the mounted monitors and set them down.... if you need to make a stand, 2x4's will work just fine to get them angled.... set the "real" monitor in the middle and then the other two on either side...

what kind of EQ's do you have to work with? this can be a big determiner of what you can do.... if you have a separate EQ for the two paired speakers, run them a little less volume than the main monitor..... build around the "center" of your staging area

I don't think moving the wall units is an option. We want to keep these up for groups who aren't able to use the portable monitors. We don't have a separate EQ for the monitors. We have a nice new 24 channel Allen & Heath board and an eq for the mains. Wiring for just one monitor channel, although the board can support 4 monitor channels.

A true consulting engineer/installer of a church system will not only know the needs of the church,budget requirements,and walk/listen to what the sanctuary needs. A reverberant room might not need any thing other than a system to assist on vocal volume over the choir/band.

Take some pics of your church and maybe I could get a clear idea of that your working with. brand and amount of channels ,mixer inputs and output. I would look there first to upgrade if you are limited on outs for multi monitor mix setups. Plus check the placement to those wall mounted monitors. I wall mounted monitors as side fills in a band shell style building to great success when angled and EQ'ed correctly.

JC- I'll snap some pics of the stage and current monitors in the next few days. The board is an Allen & Heath 2400.

You didn't say what the problem is with your present setup. Not loud enough? SOme people can hear and others can't?

What are you running through them? Vocals? Guitars? Electric or acoustic? Bass? Keys?

What else in stage, competing with them? Real drums? Guitar amps? Bass amp?

I was both guitar player and sound engineer at my church in Texas for a year AND I'll be in Cincinatti on business 10/24 - 11/4. When I'm not working, I could maybe stop by for a quick look-see and to throw out some ideas.

The problem with the current setup is that not everyone can hear well. As the only electric guitarist I use my amp to supplement the monitor on stage and also run it through the board. The sound guy complains that my amp is too loud (it is facing the 'audience').

Here is a run down of the band and equipment:
3 vocalists all running through the mains and monitors
keyboard running through the mains and monitors
acoustic drums
bass through amp only
acoustic guitar through on stage amp facing audience, mains, and monitors
electric guitar through on stage amp facing audience, mains, and monitors

Rich- thanks for the offer to stop by. I'll pm you.

First, I gotta say sorry for forgetting about this thread. But in my defense, it doesn't show up when I do a search for my posts. That's weird. Thanks for the replies, everyone.



We don't have that kind of money. in fact whatever we do will probably come out of my pocket.




I don't think moving the wall units is an option. We want to keep these up for groups who aren't able to use the portable monitors. We don't have a separate EQ for the monitors. We have a nice new 24 channel Allen & Heath board and an eq for the mains. Wiring for just one monitor channel, although the board can support 4 monitor channels.

Having said that,I now know. I suggest adding EQ's and amps to make a few seperate monitor mixes. 3 Eq's and two more amps or a good 2ch. amp to get a 3 way mix. left/center/right setup.

The EQ's will allow you to tune the speakers to eliminate feedback. Sound engineering 101. Use the channel strip EQ for fine tuning of the inputs signal to front of house.
An Allen & Heath mixer is pre fader/pre EQ on aux sends. So you are not EQ'ing any of you monitor mix. This helps so that your EQ on the channel does not effect the monitor mix and cause feedback.

I suggest taking the guitars out of the PA altogether, and the keys out of the monitor mix as well. He can use a small practice amp for a monitor for the stage. You may need the drummer to tone down a bit to keep stage volume down...practically a certainty.

I suggest taking the guitars out of the PA altogether

For sure, unless you're in an arena or only playing through a practice amp I really don't think there is any reason to put guitars or bass through the mains. I only play out of a 2x10 (I think only 45 or 60 watts) and even in the biggest most crowded bars we have played (which have been pretty big and crowded) the amp could carry the guitar. Reason being that having even a single guitar or bass really muddies up the monitors. In my setup we have two guitars, bass, keys, drums and three vocals. Only vocals and keys, and occasionally the kit go through the mains...and only vocals and a tiny bit of keys are in the monitors, just enough so I know what the guy is playing.

Again, unless you're in an arena, you're going to hear your instruments through your amps. Monitors are just to let people on stage hear what they otherwise would not be able to (i.e. vocals) and everything else just overpowers it, even more so if your sound tech isn't great at tweaking individual channel volumes through the monitors. Especially in a church where I bet the acoustics are pretty good, you should really only need vocals and anything that doesn't have it's own amp in the mains, and even after that take everything but the vocals out of the monitors

Having said that,I now know. I suggest adding EQ's and amps to make a few seperate monitor mixes. 3 Eq's and two more amps or a good 2ch. amp to get a 3 way mix. left/center/right setup.

The EQ's will allow you to tune the speakers to eliminate feedback. Sound engineering 101. Use the channel strip EQ for fine tuning of the inputs signal to front of house.
An Allen & Heath mixer is pre fader/pre EQ on aux sends. So you are not EQ'ing any of you monitor mix. This helps so that your EQ on the channel does not effect the monitor mix and cause feedback.

As another sound engineer I'll back JC up on this.

I suggest taking the guitars out of the PA altogether, and the keys out of the monitor mix as well. He can use a small practice amp for a monitor for the stage. You may need the drummer to tone down a bit to keep stage volume down...practically a certainty.

For sure, unless you're in an arena or only playing through a practice amp I really don't think there is any reason to put guitars or bass through the mains. I only play out of a 2x10 (I think only 45 or 60 watts) and even in the biggest most crowded bars we have played (which have been pretty big and crowded) the amp could carry the guitar. Reason being that having even a single guitar or bass really muddies up the monitors. In my setup we have two guitars, bass, keys, drums and three vocals. Only vocals and keys, and occasionally the kit go through the mains...and only vocals and a tiny bit of keys are in the monitors, just enough so I know what the guy is playing.

Again, unless you're in an arena, you're going to hear your instruments through your amps. Monitors are just to let people on stage hear what they otherwise would not be able to (i.e. vocals) and everything else just overpowers it, even more so if your sound tech isn't great at tweaking individual channel volumes through the monitors. Especially in a church where I bet the acoustics are pretty good, you should really only need vocals and anything that doesn't have it's own amp in the mains, and even after that take everything but the vocals out of the monitors

I have three reasons for putting my guitar through the mains. Feel free to redirect me if these aren't accurate:

1. It allows the sound man to adjust my level

2. The room is large (seats about 200). Going through the mains will disperse the guitar sound through out the room.

3. I turn up my amp loud enough for the room it's too loud for the other members of the band.

Thoughts?

Having said that,I now know. I suggest adding EQ's and amps to make a few separate monitor mixes. 3 Eq's and two more amps or a good 2ch. amp to get a 3 way mix. left/center/right setup.

The EQ's will allow you to tune the speakers to eliminate feedback. Sound engineering 101. Use the channel strip EQ for fine tuning of the inputs signal to front of house.
An Allen & Heath mixer is pre fader/pre EQ on aux sends. So you are not EQ'ing any of you monitor mix. This helps so that your EQ on the channel does not effect the monitor mix and cause feedback.

Feedback isn't usually an issue for us since we aren't playing at very high levels. Would there be other reasons to EQ the monitors? I do like the idea of having three monitor channels. Unfortunately we don't have the money for that right now.

My current thoughts are getting one or two more wedge monitors or getting a couple unpowered personal monitors such as the Galaxy Hot Spot. Is this a good way to go?

[QUOTE=SixShooter;3670306]I have three reasons for putting my guitar through the mains. Feel free to redirect me if these aren't accurate:

1. It allows the sound man to adjust my level

2. The room is large (seats about 200). Going through the mains will disperse the guitar sound through out the room.

3. I turn up my amp loud enough for the room it's too loud for the other members of the band.
Thoughts?[/QUO



This is true...however, I would mic your guitar amp. This way, you can keep the volume level low onstage just for you to hear and the sound man can mix it in the mains for the congregation. This would be the correct way to do it :wink:

[QUOTE=SixShooter;3670306]I have three reasons for putting my guitar through the mains. Feel free to redirect me if these aren't accurate:

1. It allows the sound man to adjust my level

2. The room is large (seats about 200). Going through the mains will disperse the guitar sound through out the room.

3. I turn up my amp loud enough for the room it's too loud for the other members of the band.
Thoughts?[/QUO



This is true...however, I would mic your guitar amp. This way, you can keep the volume level low onstage just for you to hear and the sound man can mix it in the mains for the congregation. This would be the correct way to do it :wink:

Currently I am running the Line Out to a DI box and into the PA.

Without knowing the size of space you are trying to fill, it's very difficult to give info on what you COULD use

do the monitors need EQ's - no.... then again, you are in a place where you want the sound to be clean without being over-bearing.... that said, the more you can control the room, the better it will sound overall....

my original post was to encourage you to develop things there, and for us to help you - We NEED more info about what you are working with to best help you.... JC was spot on with his recommendations, but that's where it starts

EQ'ing is way more important than you think. A graphic EQ is a tool to tune the room as well as the system. A sound system in a room becomes part of the room so to speak.

I have seen systems where they were clearly not meant to be in the room,designed by somebody not by what the venue needs,but by what they could get the buyer to buy. I have seen many a church get told what they need is such and such this and that when all they need is half of what the installer actually put in.

Certain frequencies stand out at points within the room,by EQ'ing the system you will eliminate the offending frequency.

I have three reasons for putting my guitar through the mains. Feel free to redirect me if these aren't accurate:

1. It allows the sound man to adjust my level

2. The room is large (seats about 200). Going through the mains will disperse the guitar sound through out the room.

3. I turn up my amp loud enough for the room it's too loud for the other members of the band.

Thoughts?

1. He adjusts the sound during the service? I feel like putting in a little bit of time before to get a decent sound check in should be enough, and then it shouldn't have to change much once you start. It's not like a crowded bar where people are coming and going and talking and spilling drinks while you play.

2. This may be, and your mains will definitely allow for more sound dispersion since they are multi-directional. But at the same time, if you only have two main speakers and you have 5+ channels going through them, it can really muddy up the system. It's a trade-off.

3. You say that you have acoustic drums, your amp shouldn't have to be turned up too much more than what the drums will be giving off. Also, strategic positioning of your amp (pointing it away from or having it in front of other band members) can help with this. But if you can hear monitors over the kit, you should be able to hear them over the amp as well.

This isn't definitive, I'm just saying in my band, we only run vocals and a little bit of keys through the monitors. I get enough of the other instruments being in close proximity to their amps to hear what I need. Even if you mic the amp, it should still be loud enough to hear without feeding it through the monitors. As lead singer, I really only want to hear a lot of my voice (I know how vain that sounds) in the monitors so I know I don't need to push harder than I have to. Same with other vocalists. Adding instruments in to the monitors, and even the mains, that don't have to be there makes it more difficult to hear what you really want. Just how we do it though, not a cure-all.

I have seen systems where they were clearly not meant to be in the room,designed by somebody not by what the venue needs,but by what they could get the buyer to buy. I have seen many a church get told what they need is such and such this and that when all they need is half of what the installer actually put in.

I have been hired to do a quick-fix for these kind of systems. I typically unhook about 65% of what they have and balance out the remainder - the customers get real happy.

Six shooter:

Absent money, you need skills. If the band as a group and individually can listen and hear and balance, then you can drop back to mostly vocals in the monitors and get by with one mix. Re-orient your exiting monitors for best coverage (I don't quite get how they are presently oriented from your posts, but I sense that they are far from optimal), make sure you have a proper load on the single monitor channel amp you have, and then build from there.

If you can't listen, hear, and self-balance then you gotsd some buyin' to do!

1. He adjusts the sound during the service? I feel like putting in a little bit of time before to get a decent sound check in should be enough, and then it shouldn't have to change much once you start. It's not like a crowded bar where people are coming and going and talking and spilling drinks while you play.

I don't know how much he adjusts the sound during the service. I imagine just small tweaks.

2. This may be, and your mains will definitely allow for more sound dispersion since they are multi-directional. But at the same time, if you only have two main speakers and you have 5+ channels going through them, it can really muddy up the system. It's a trade-off.

Hmmm, you've go me thinking. From what others are saying maybe there is too many instruments through the mains and/or monitors. I'm not ready to take myself out of the mains, but maybe out of the monitors.


3. You say that you have acoustic drums, your amp shouldn't have to be turned up too much more than what the drums will be giving off. Also, strategic positioning of your amp (pointing it away from or having it in front of other band members) can help with this. But if you can hear monitors over the kit, you should be able to hear them over the amp as well.

This isn't definitive, I'm just saying in my band, we only run vocals and a little bit of keys through the monitors. I get enough of the other instruments being in close proximity to their amps to hear what I need. Even if you mic the amp, it should still be loud enough to hear without feeding it through the monitors. As lead singer, I really only want to hear a lot of my voice (I know how vain that sounds) in the monitors so I know I don't need to push harder than I have to. Same with other vocalists. Adding instruments in to the monitors, and even the mains, that don't have to be there makes it more difficult to hear what you really want. Just how we do it though, not a cure-all.

I think I'll try taking myself and the acoustic out of the monitors and try using only our amps as monitors. Thanks for the discussion and ideas.

Some of you asked to see our set up. Here you can see whole stage from the balcony. The main speakers are above the flags in the corners of the sanctuary (behind the chandeliers in the photo) . Unfortunately they are about twelve feet up. The speakers are in a loft and sit in front of openings in the wall. One of these days I'm going to bring some blocks of wood in to tilt the speakers forward for better aim towards the 'audience'.
100435

Here is a close-up of the band. From left to right bass (amp is behind her), electric (amp behind me, also in mains & monitor), vocalist, keys/vocalist (keyboard through mains & monitors), drums, acoustic (amp behind him, also in mains & monitor), 12 string (not amplified). two wedge monitors at vocalists feet and two small wall mounted monitors at sides of stage about 6 feet off the floor.

100436

Thanks everyone for sticking with this discussion and educating me. I am learning alot and starting to formulate some strategies.

I have been hired to do a quick-fix for these kind of systems. I typically unhook about 65% of what they have and balance out the remainder - the customers get real happy.

Ah ,I see you have been in the same boat.

Looks to me like a pretty brite reverberant room. Hardwood floors,plaster,curved shell style ceiling. You need to get the mains off the back wall behind you,they are fighting the stage volume to get past and into the pews, and aimed over the pews.
monitors are too far to the left/right for any good sidefills. Pull them off the wall and set them up as regular wedges. A single center cluster for mains hanging above would be my setup. the setup you are dealing with now is/was fine for a simple service not a modern band backed service.

Looks to me like a pretty bright reverberant room. Hardwood floors,plaster,curved shell style ceiling.

It is VERY reverberant. We had a sound engineer tell us that the first thing we should do is put up acoustic tiles on the walls. The church isn't too crazy about this idea for aesthetic reasons but I am working on them. When you stand half way back and clap, there's about a 1.5 second reverberation :sad:

You need to get the mains off the back wall behind you,they are fighting the stage volume to get past and into the pews, and aimed over the pews.

It's hard to see them, but the mains are in front of the stage. Look at the American flag. The left speaker is just above it.

monitors are too far to the left/right for any good sidefills. Pull them off the wall and set them up as regular wedges.

I know. I was thinking we'd leave those up for times when other groups don't want to deal with wedges (we put the wedges away when no using them). Is there any harm in having them on even though they aren't effectively located?

A single center cluster for mains hanging above would be my setup. the setup you are dealing with now is/was fine for a simple service not a modern band backed service.

JC, you are so right on. This system was not built for a modern band. Truth is, we are in the process of moving from a blended (traditional/contemporary) service to a mostly contemporary service with rock style worship music. That's going fairly well though there are still some of the older folks who aren't overjoyed about it. So getting the church to upgrade the sound system, put in panels, etc is not an easy thing. and of course with this economy there is no extra money.

Acoustical panels can easily be hidden behind curtains and set as a backing,setting for a painting.

Powered monitors might be the way to go,you have EQ control and amp built in. buy one and built your way up to three and add 3 separate or linked monitor mixes,with out any fear of mismatched loads.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/F1320D/

I see alot of churches struggle to maintain the elder people as the younger generations become more contemporary. Some have two services,one traditional for the older/earley moring folks.