Another nail in the Live Music coffin

I just called one of the VERY few real Blues clubs in my area to follow up on a gig.
When I asked the guy if he had any more dates for me, he told me he was ending live music altogether after November.
This guy has been putting out around $2k/week for live music for about 7 years and he says he's had enough.
The guy is a life-long guitar player and a Blues hound, but he says it's just not worth the trouble anymore.
People just aren't coming out to see live Blues/Blues-based music.
Very sad.
I asked him if he's hiring local bands and he said he was, but nobody was bringing a crowd.
I kind of made an excuse and reminded him I travelled over an hour and couldn't haul in more than 6 or 8 of my own people.
He said he really wanted to hire me because he loved the band and totally expected that I wouldn't bring my own crowd...but he also said that many of his LOCAL bands didn't bring more of a crowd than that.
What's going on here?

Demographics mostly IMO. The blues crowd is older, and in this part of the country you have to have a young following (20-30 something) to be able to pull a crowd on any given night. Can any band that plays the same town/venues regularly expect their friends/fans to show up all the time? Very doubtful.

It's all about the venue and quality of the line up down here. My band plays a lot, but we make sure that we're only promoting a few gigs a month to keep from burning out our "fan base." The rest of the gigs that month need to be in the right venue on the right night with the right people to have a good crowd.

Or you could move to Memphis. Packed blues houses every night of the week.

we barely have the luxary of live blues bands here, at all and being in Oxford you'd expect something more.

Atleast you guys have the option or the chance to catch live music. There's no punk, blues, rock or indie scene here anymore...just dance music and the Hardcore/dubstep crowd and it sucks balls.


It upsets me genres' and live music is in decline, Im also sad for your band..hope you get something sorted.

It's the economy. Live music venues are dying a slow and agonizing death. It's been going this way for years...and as the economy gets worse, the venues are going to get fewer and farther between.

I've noticed a lot of local places are now giving bands "door" money...charging so much at the door and giving them that...instead of a flat rate.

I played for the door back in 1982 or whatever....back then you charged $1 or $2. Now it's $5....and the people don't want to pay it...and I really can't blame them....times are tough.

Next thing is "for tips"...and that won't be much either, trust me.

Blues is absolutely the bottom of the barrel these days in terms of $$$, outside of esoteric stuff like Avante-Garde Jazz or whatnot

I'm done playing Blues gigs, going back to playing Country music which I like better anyways

When you read the guitar magazines they make it sound like blues is huge... Joe Bonathingy in every issue, blues techniques featured all the time...

But things aren't quite like that, not in the UK anyway. I remember the late 80s and early 90s as a time when there was a thriving blues circuit and when a blues band would go down well in general pub situations. Not now. I recently left a very active gigging blues band because audiences just weren't into it and we played to near empty places too many times.

Now I play 50s rock and roll and we are seeing people come out to the gigs just because the poster says we play that music: that never happened in the blues band, apart from one or two middle-aged guys who would come and stare at my fingers all night. Now we get non-musos who just want a good time and a dance. I love it.

There are so many contradictions....
Blues dying?
It seems like there are Blues festivals all the time...
The economy?
Drive by an Outback steak house or a Red Lobster around here any Friday or Saturday night and they're holding their little beepers for 45 minutes waiting to pay too much for mediocre food.
A place around me was hiring GOOD bands (and not just Blues) with NO cover....and BYOB.
Which means a night out for a couple with a live band and drinks for about $12.
They closed because they couldn't draw a crowd.
I'm starting to think it's all about a Comcast billboard I saw.
A family watching TV, playing video games and surfing the 'net with the caption "Why go out?"

Make some videos and put them on youtube, sell downloads, house concerts, social networking with fans. That's the way it works now.

When your share of the pie gets too small make your own pie.... :grin:

I'm starting to think it's all about a Comcast billboard I saw.
A family watching TV, playing video games and surfing the 'net with the caption "Why go out?"

+1 It's such a different mindset now. Everything is expected so instantaneously these days that no one appreciate the time it takes for someone to hone his/her craft to the point of going out to perform in public.

I guess it really is a different mindset these days when it comes to live entertainment.

I don't believe it is so much about the economy. Even though the economy is terrible I still see people spending (or wasting?) plenty of money on non-essential things. If people want to see or do something they will find the money.

I don't think it's because Blues is dying either but... while there are certainly some good Blues bands out there I think it has been quite overdone and poorly done for so long now I could see how it might not be in high demand. From what I've seen the average Blues bar band is not very entertaining. I doubt that is the case with the original poster's band but he probably suffers as a result of other bands like this.

My take on it is a bit different. I think the local live music scene in many places is weak these days because, frankly, the bands are weak. There was a time when a so-so band could do well just because they were playing live music and that's what people wanted. Now that is not enough; there is too much competition from other bands, TV, video games, and especially the internet. Technology in general has given us all A.D.D. I guess so a band has to be very strong to keep the public's attention and make people want to come back.

A lot of bands work hard to play and sing the best they can. That's great but how about wearing some nice clothes on stage, working on some dance moves, and really putting on a show? I know some do but I don't see a lot of that in small clubs and bars around here. I don't want to get started with the song selection discussion. I definitely have my opinions on that but to some extent it might not matter. People will respond to really great performances of many different styles. I do think it helps greatly if the rhythm section is more of a focus than the lead guitar. It's just my opinion of course but I think the majority of people would enjoy live music more if it was about good grooves and good songs and not so much about loud guitars. I know that might make me an outcast here, if I wasn't already. :lol:

If you want to make any decent money as a working band you have to give the punters all the old crap they want to hear.Forget about your own taste or what you want to play,the plain fact is people just want to dance and have a good time,they are not one bit interested in how well you crack out a solo or any degree of musicianship. There are several great blues bands local to me and they don't gig anywhere near as frequently and when they do they earn a lot less than us.

I'd say about 80% of the stuff we play is the kind of music I would never listen to,but it's not about me,it's about supply and demand.

It's just my opinion of course but I think the majority of people would enjoy live music more if it was about good grooves and good songs and not so much about loud guitars.

I agree 100%

I'd much rather go see a Motown cover band with a tight rhythm section and good singers, or an original indie band with some soul, than yet another Stevie Ray Vaughnnabee, or cargo shorts geezers playing the same old blues covers with the same old licks... :grin:

I agree 100%

I'd much rather go see a Motown cover band with a tight rhythm section and good singers, or an original indie band with some soul, than yet another Stevie Ray Vaughnnabee, or cargo shorts geezers playing the same old blues covers with the same old licks... :grin:

I have yet to see a band like this or anything similar not do well. This always goes over well with pretty much any audience. Always has - since the days when it was new.

Why pay a band when you can pay a DJ or karaoke superstar less money to do the entertainment for a longer time? In many bar owners' minds, bands don't matter... it's all sales. And to the patrons... they don't care as long as it's fun. After all, how many bands are REALLY worth a damn?? Sadly, as ridiculous as it seems, karaoke is a safe bet because even though most people singing aren't worth a damn, it still draws people and beer drinkers every night of the week!

Venues are tired of hiring bands that A. Play the same crap as the last band, B. Look like hobbyist musicians, C. Sound like hobbyist musicians (ie- no groove or soul and crappy volume mix). Even cover bands need their own "personality" and should look the part.

My town's music scene has been pretty lame the past few years, but the venues who hire bands, and those who don't, have made these points to me. The hiring venues pay well and do an excellent job with sound, but they are, by design, difficult to get into.

Or as my brother put it... "hey, you live in a 'married with a family' type of town. Most people don't have time to analyze your tone, lyrical brilliance, or originality... they just wanna have fun, dance, and/or get drunk". If bands in your area aren't bringing in people to buy beer and have a good time, then the live shows will disappear and Captain Karaoke will come in to save the day.

I agree 100%

I'd much rather go see a Motown cover band with a tight rhythm section and good singers, or an original indie band with some soul, than yet another Stevie Ray Vaughnnabee, or cargo shorts geezers playing the same old blues covers with the same old licks... :grin:

Agree on ALL points!

People can't deny "soul" or even a rhythm section can work the backbeat from time to time. Whether it's a cover band or original act, having a groove that drives into people and gets feet tappin' will always sell more beer... which get more people dancing... which sells more beer.... which gets you more shows.

Why pay a band when you can pay a DJ or karaoke superstar less money to do the entertainment for a longer time? In many bar owners' minds, bands don't matter... it's all sales. And to the patrons... they don't care as long as it's fun. After all, how many bands are REALLY worth a damn?? Sadly, as ridiculous as it seems, karaoke is a safe bet because even though most people singing aren't worth a damn, it still draws people and beer drinkers every night of the week!

Venues are tired of hiring bands that A. Play the same crap as the last band, B. Look like hobbyist musicians, C. Sound like hobbyist musicians (ie- no groove or soul and crappy volume mix). Even cover bands need their own "personality" and should look the part.

My town's music scene has been pretty lame the past few years, but the venues who hire bands, and those who don't, have made these points to me. The hiring venues pay well and do an excellent job with sound, but they are, by design, difficult to get into.

Or as my brother put it... "hey, you live in a 'married with a family' type of town. Most people don't have time to analyze your tone, lyrical brilliance, or originality... they just wanna have fun, dance, and/or get drunk". If bands in your area aren't bringing in people to buy beer and have a good time, then the live shows will disappear and Captain Karaoke will come in to save the day.

This is kind of my point too. If a band can't do a better job of entertaining and making money for a venue than a DJ or Karaoke can you can't blame the venue or even the people really. If we don't want lame music scenes the bands have to stop being lame.

I had to take my band to a Regional status instead of playing in my city and competing with all of the lazy, ego based, play what you want, look like a slob, play thru junk, say what you want to the crowd, beers all over the stage, who's got the weed tonight, skirt chasing, general hack bands. Not burning out your base audience by moving around has worked well for us. As much as I love to play, Tore Down, Further on up the Road, Limelight, Sultans of Swing, Hotel California, Comfortably Numb, the market does not dictate that those are options. We are busy and well booked by playing Margaritaville, Brown Eyed Girl, Fishin in the Dark, and the like. This is the scene in the upper midwest anyway. Its not my preference, its just the way it is. "Time and a Half Band"

I think live blues is doing a great job killing itself.

I'm not surprised no one is going to watch it live because a lot of it is rubbish. I reckon that a lot of it's unpopularity lies directly at the feet of players. Players just aren't creating and performing the music a wider audience wants to experience.

For every Jack White or Dan Auerbach there are a bazillion Clapton and SRV wannabes dragging the blues back to the dark days of dad rock and cheesy masturbatory soloing. I'm pro the blues being played more live, but only if it's something with some genuine edge and musicality. I can't stand watching a middle aged white guy in baggy jeans twiddling out some scales to some rhythm-less backing. Do you think kids in the 50s and 60s would have gotten all hot and bothered over Blues and R&B if that is what they saw all those years ago?

In recent years it's bad Jazz and Blues bands that have ruined more nights in bars and pubs then anything else. Good ones have on the other hand made for awesome nights. The problem is that the proportion of good bands to bad ones is horrible.

I think live blues is doing a great job killing itself.

I'm not surprised no one is going to watch it live because a lot of it is rubbish. I reckon that a lot of it's unpopularity lies directly at the feet of players. Players just aren't creating and performing the music a wider audience wants to experience.

For every Jack White or Dan Auerbach there are a bazillion Clapton and SRV wannabes dragging the blues back to the dark days of dad rock and cheesy masturbatory soloing. I'm pro the blues being played more live, but only if it's something with some genuine edge and musicality. I can't stand watching a middle aged white guy in baggy jeans twiddling out some scales to some rhythm-less backing. Do you think kids in the 50s and 60s would have gotten all hot and bothered over Blues and R&B if that is what they saw all those years ago?

Yep

These guys make it look pretty easy. I would go see this band and spend a little money while I'm there. We can't all solo like Guy King but I'm surprised it's so hard these days to get a band together that can get that kind of feel. It's really not hard if you listen and just try to feel it.

HSNUtdprwuQ

I think live blues is doing a great job killing itself.

I'm not surprised no one is going to watch it live because a lot of it is rubbish. I reckon that a lot of it's unpopularity lies directly at the feet of players. Players just aren't creating and performing the music a wider audience wants to experience.

For every Jack White or Dan Auerbach there are a bazillion Clapton and SRV wannabes dragging the blues back to the dark days of dad rock and cheesy masturbatory soloing. I'm pro the blues being played more live, but only if it's something with some genuine edge and musicality. I can't stand watching a middle aged white guy in baggy jeans twiddling out some scales to some rhythm-less backing. Do you think kids in the 50s and 60s would have gotten all hot and bothered over Blues and R&B if that is what they saw all those years ago?

In recent years it's bad Jazz and Blues bands that have ruined more nights in bars and pubs then anything else. Good ones have on the other hand made for awesome nights. The problem is that the proportion of good bands to bad ones is horrible.

This^^^^^.

I love the blues. But.... You wanna clear a room? Pay a slow blues that's 90% wanking. Blues is death if it's all about the guitar wankery.

I'm starting to think it's all about a Comcast billboard I saw.
A family watching TV, playing video games and surfing the 'net with the caption "Why go out?"


Thats a huge part of the equation. We've been noticing it, starting in a big way, about ten years ago. It only gets worse for people trying to "bring a crowd to see their band".

Think about all the entertainment options people have beamed into their houses now. 500 channels of TV. OnDemand Movies and streaming movies from Netflix. Video games. then theres the computer, with a billion sources of entertainment.

Then theres the age issue. Bands dedicating themselves to any sort of an older playlist, are in for trouble, the way I see it. Bands playing classic rock are catering to an audience that is probably in bed by the time you hit the stage and start playing. And being 50 years old, I feel stupid playing songs written for, and about, young people.

Its very tough, my part of town, these days, very very few bands can draw a consistent crowd, and bars are one after the other, not having live music anymore... or if they do, you get maybe a free beer and thats it, charge the door if you wanna make any money.

and thats a double edged sword too, because people wont pay to come see a band they have been seeing for free.

My last band was a very good cover band, but I finally got tired of the "numbers game" bars play... thats no matter how well you play, if you didnt bring enough people to drink enough beer and turn a good profit, then you dont get asked back... EVER. We just could not get people out on a routine basis, and I got tired of begging them.

Probly lots of you guys are feeling the same way.

This^^^^^.

I love the blues. But.... You wanna clear a room? Pay a slow blues that's 90% wanking. Blues is death if it's all about the guitar wankery.

Brother you've got that right Fezz!

Sidebar-
Had the tv on last night watching a Santana concert he hosted. He sat in with Bobby Parker & then later Buddy Guy. So much potential yet ultimately quite sleep-inducing, even with the pros playing. I kept waiting for Buddy to cut loose & command the stage instead of listening to Carlos' fuzzy, mid-heavy overplaying. My humble aplologies to Carlos of course...

My bud Steve Harper has a permanent gig in Memphis on Beale with his blues band. He's lucky and they are GOOD! Steve has the "chops". His wife Patty sings and she can do it to it. They do play other styles of music in the song list for variety and it keeps people happy. An earlier post suggested that blues is somewhat limited to older generations and I agree. Unless you are playing in a designated "Blues Bar' where people come for that, it's tough. I found that mostly people want to rock and drink or vice versa...or just drink.

PS I agree with The Fezzter. He knows of which he speaks

All is well here in ATHENS....music scene is abundent..and always changing..i feel lucky to live here.

As well you should. There are still plenty of places to play the blues everywhere, but you better either be very good or have a hook. Having a beautiful female lead singer with good blues pipes will help!

This^^^^^.

I love the blues. But.... You wanna clear a room? Pay a slow blues that's 90% wanking. Blues is death if it's all about the guitar wankery.

I'm not saying I DESERVE a crowd or anything, but we're really different from the other Blues bands around here.
We show up with the same line-up every time, we're very tightly rehearsed, there are tight arrangements with plenty of instruments playing in unison and arranged horn lines, everybody is a pro and and knows what it means to act that way, I keep a great rapport with the audience and make them part of the show, OK...The sax player and I might each take one long wanky solo per night, but we save it up, so the crowd digs it.
I think the only serious shortcoming my band has is that I am not a strong singer...I'd love to have a great front man/woman, but I just can't find anybody who can do it well AND is interested in learning 40 original tunes.
What I guess I'm trying to say is...I'm totally aware of all those things that are odious about Blues bands and I try like hell to avoid them...but I'm getting nervous here!
I don't know if a band that did everything right could haul in a strong regular following in my area.
I think local/regional bands playing Blues in bars just might be a dead horse.

All is well here in ATHENS....music scene is abundent..and always changing..i feel lucky to live here.

I feel lucky to live where I do as well- lots of great live music just about any night of the week

It's ironic that the clones SRV inspired are killing the genre he revived.

I think live blues is doing a great job killing itself.

I'm not surprised no one is going to watch it live because a lot of it is rubbish. I reckon that a lot of it's unpopularity lies directly at the feet of players. Players just aren't creating and performing the music a wider audience wants to experience.

For every Jack White or Dan Auerbach there are a bazillion Clapton and SRV wannabes dragging the blues back to the dark days of dad rock and cheesy masturbatory soloing. I'm pro the blues being played more live, but only if it's something with some genuine edge and musicality. I can't stand watching a middle aged white guy in baggy jeans twiddling out some scales to some rhythm-less backing. Do you think kids in the 50s and 60s would have gotten all hot and bothered over Blues and R&B if that is what they saw all those years ago?

In recent years it's bad Jazz and Blues bands that have ruined more nights in bars and pubs then anything else. Good ones have on the other hand made for awesome nights. The problem is that the proportion of good bands to bad ones is horrible.

Its all about 'good band' vs 'mediocre band' and lousy band. Most of the 'blues' bands round here are pick up players. No practice, and no direction, or class. Prctice, and get some sort of show happening. Dress better than the audience too. You are hired to entertain, not fill time.

T.

Not sure whats going on there but in Tx there are so many blues bands its become background music. The bands of other genres seem to attract better audiences.

Its simple........the young-uns...are in the rap clubs...mid aged home taking care of babies...elders watching cable TV and goin to bed early.
The economy doesnt help.....cost money to go out and drinking is safer and cheaper at home. Live music has been on the decline for years its sad.

Its simple........the young-uns...are in the rap clubs...mid aged home taking care of babies...elders watching cable TV and goin to bed early.
The economy doesnt help.....cost money to go out and drinking is safer and cheaper at home. Live music has been on the decline for years its sad.

Yes, but...

young-uns - Who cares, no money

mid aged - Desperate to get out of the house and get away from spouse and babies

elders - Not dead yet and probably could go for some good live music. In many cases the 50+ crowd is where the money is. On a possibly related note, I heard a statistic that 50+ is the most sexually active age group in this country! Not sure if it's true.

That's my take on it. :lol: I'm no expert though. Just trying to be optimistic and say that if more bands would really do it right live music wouldn't be on the decline. We just have to give people a better reason to show up.

I've had several great gigs this year at a local retirement village. Now, before ya'll start laughing, just hear me out. These places have a budget for entertainment, so you don't have to deal with the idiot bar owner and his story about he has no money, is losing money on bands, etc. The residents show up to dance, and they literally dance the entire time...this makes it FUN! Everybody is nice and polite and makes you feel welcome. The gigs (they bill them as dances at this particular one) are 7-9pm.

I've had several great gigs this year at a local retirement village. Now, before ya'll start laughing, just hear me out. These places have a budget for entertainment, so you don't have to deal with the idiot bar owner and his story about he has no money, is losing money on bands, etc. The residents show up to dance, and they literally dance the entire time...this makes it FUN! Everybody is nice and polite and makes you feel welcome. The gigs (they bill them as dances at this particular one) are 7-9pm.

I've played the last two new year's to a room full of retirees on a package holiday... crowd's age from 55-90+.... (we start at 7, play 'til midnight, do Auld Lang Syne & one encore to finish - usually done by 12:15) as Big John said - they're ready to dance (as one old dear said to me - "it could be my last new year so I'm going to make the most of it!!)

..... You are hired to entertain, not fill time.

T.

Nothing worse than bands that don't realize this - I've played in too many bands that use the first set as a "warm up" - sorry, but the crowd that are there for the 1st song aren't gonna hang around for an hour to see if the material gets any better... my current band has the best setlist I've played - you can dance from the 1st song to the last 3.5hrs later... (caveat - we do break it down a bit, usually something like Copperhead Road to give the crowd a 30 second breather for the intro before they're jumping about by the end of the 1st verse). If peeps are requesting AC/DC 10 minutes into the night - give them AC/DC then (or very soon!).

One of the venues I play has a rival venue literally 2 doors down from them, it's a good place to hone your setlist, because if you play something the crowd doesn't like you can watch them head out the door & past the window at the side of the stage heading the the other pub.... (& you'd better be playing something they like when they make the walk back, otherwise they head home!)

Agree with alot of these posts,there is nothing quite as bad as a long ,slow,badly played blues tune.Saw a nice act a few months back that did Steely Dan,Joe Cocker,Leon Russel,and did them well.The singer/harp man,Bill Mattocks played the first hour in a suit and tie and sweated his ass off.Man they did Delta Lady,Roll Away The Stone,had not heard this stuff in years!This kind of band will get me outta the house with wallet in hand!Signed,cargo shorts wearin old fart,ha!

These guys make it look pretty easy. I would go see this band and spend a little money while I'm there. We can't all solo like Guy King but I'm surprised it's so hard these days to get a band together that can get that kind of feel. It's really not hard if you listen and just try to feel it.

HSNUtdprwuQ

Yeah but those guys are good. Most local "blues" bands are hacks who play blues because they think it's so easy a caveman could do it, or they are really rock bands who chase the blues fans away with their volume and lack of swing.

But I dispute that "it's not that hard." It's not about the soloing, and the feel is something you have or you don't. take away the horns and put a heavy-handed, plodding rock drummer in that band and it doesn't matter who good the guitarist is.



That's my take on it. :lol: I'm no expert though. Just trying to be optimistic and say that if more bands would really do it right live music wouldn't be on the decline. We just have to give people a better reason to show up.

While live music isn't what it was 20 or more years ago (for a variety of reasons) people will still go out and appreciate a good band. But if a club hires too many crappy bands people will stop going there. The real music fans will still be going out, just somewhere else.

Personally, I've always loved the blues, but I have no desire to play in a blues band at this point, and will only go out to see a blues band if they are good. And that really boils down to A) a good singer, and B) a swinging rhythm section.

I agree 100%

I'd much rather go see a Motown cover band with a tight rhythm section and good singers, or an original indie band with some soul, than yet another Stevie Ray Vaughnnabee, or cargo shorts geezers playing the same old blues covers with the same old licks... :grin:

What I'm doing these days is a funky party band with four horns doing everything from soul to funk, to rock, to swing and even a little ska. People love horns and we rock that party!

Another band I am in is basically hired to bring people in. Most everybody in the band is 50...I'm the young buck at 40. We play a lot of classic rock, and honestly, we are pretty mediocre...and sometimes worse! I'm the lead singer, and I do ok there; but I'm also the lead guitar player, and the best I can really do is learn enough of the solos to make them recognizable for a moment before degenerating into blues lick #4, rock lick # 9, etc...it can get bad. We have a "rhythm" guitar player who's as useless as **** on a bull, the drummer knows basically one or two patterns, and so forth.

Anyways, our trick is that everybody in the band has a good social network (real...not Facebook) of people who have good jobs, their kids are on they way out the door to college, or they just got divorced...either way they are up for rallying around our band once a month or so at a bar.

I've gotten together with other musicians to form other bands, and the music has sounded much better, more skilled players, etc., but we eventually realize that although we sound good, nobody has any friends who will come out and see us play a bar. That's kind of a killer around here...and most places probably.

Lol...looks like my slang term for bovine mammaries got auto-censored somehow.

But I dispute that "it's not that hard." It's not about the soloing, and the feel is something you have or you don't. take away the horns and put a heavy-handed, plodding rock drummer in that band and it doesn't matter who good the guitarist is.

I guess it's true to some extent that you either have it or you don't but I think if a musician has decent basic ability and they choose to listen to and study the right aspects of great music they can pick up on a lot. I know I've learned a lot more about music by listening than by playing. I think musicians, especially drummers, who don't get the right feel to songs are just not listening the way they should be.

I think live blues is doing a great job killing itself.

I'm not surprised no one is going to watch it live because a lot of it is rubbish. I reckon that a lot of it's unpopularity lies directly at the feet of players. Players just aren't creating and performing the music a wider audience wants to experience.

For every Jack White or Dan Auerbach there are a bazillion Clapton and SRV wannabes dragging the blues back to the dark days of dad rock and cheesy masturbatory soloing. I'm pro the blues being played more live, but only if it's something with some genuine edge and musicality. I can't stand watching a middle aged white guy in baggy jeans twiddling out some scales to some rhythm-less backing. Do you think kids in the 50s and 60s would have gotten all hot and bothered over Blues and R&B if that is what they saw all those years ago?

In recent years it's bad Jazz and Blues bands that have ruined more nights in bars and pubs then anything else. Good ones have on the other hand made for awesome nights. The problem is that the proportion of good bands to bad ones is horrible.I pretty much agree with this.

Maybe they should change the name of their band to "The Dreaded Old White Guys Playin' The Blues Again Mama Band"

Haven't bothered to read all the replies but the theme was pretty common and what has been stated worked reflected the mindset we employed when we were gigging heaps.

Over here in Oz the experience is much the same except the main source of income these days is poker / slot machines not live music or for that matter any sort of music.

I've not played live for quite a while but when I was we played a mix of covers and it revolved around 4 part harmonies, anything from Grand Funk to Charlie Pride / Hank Williams and absolutely anything in between.

We played six nights a week for may years and always had a packed house because there was something for everyone, there was at least one original in each bracket and we played 20 on 10 off so 8 brackets in a four hour night which gave plenty of time for the punters to buy beer and play the pokies and us time to play 40 - 50 numbers every night.

Our preferred sound / style was Pure Prairie League, Eagles, LRB etc which reflected the vocals of the band.

I believe that unless you are a well known single artist cover band then as a one trick pony you will find work difficult to find.

JMTBW.

I think live blues is doing a great job killing itself.

I'm not surprised no one is going to watch it live because a lot of it is rubbish. I reckon that a lot of it's unpopularity lies directly at the feet of players. Players just aren't creating and performing the music a wider audience wants to experience.

For every Jack White or Dan Auerbach there are a bazillion Clapton and SRV wannabes dragging the blues back to the dark days of dad rock and cheesy masturbatory soloing. I'm pro the blues being played more live, but only if it's something with some genuine edge and musicality. I can't stand watching a middle aged white guy in baggy jeans twiddling out some scales to some rhythm-less backing. Do you think kids in the 50s and 60s would have gotten all hot and bothered over Blues and R&B if that is what they saw all those years ago?

In recent years it's bad Jazz and Blues bands that have ruined more nights in bars and pubs then anything else. Good ones have on the other hand made for awesome nights. The problem is that the proportion of good bands to bad ones is horrible.

that is it exactly. Also Blues, real genuine Blues, requires great singing. And there are very very few great Blues singers left, especially at the local bar band level

[QUOTE=Guitfiddler;3581716]Demographics mostly IMO. The blues crowd is older, and in this part of the country you have to have a young following (20-30 something) to be able to pull a crowd on any given night. Can any band that plays the same town/venues regularly expect their friends/fans to show up all the time? Very doubtful.

It's all about the venue and quality of the line up down here. My band plays a lot, but we make sure that we're only promoting a few gigs a month to keep from burning out our "fan base." The rest of the gigs that month need to be in the right venue on the right night with the right people to have a good crowd.

IF I may Quote Guitfiddler, you Sir are on the right track 2 of my good friend play's music(sing's), but I could not go and see theme 5 time in a row eventualy they will start playing the same thing and it get's boaring.so to attrack people you have to change the venue eventualy to attrack the crowd and stay in buisness:wink:
my 2C

Its all about 'good band' vs 'mediocre band' and lousy band. Most of the 'blues' bands round here are pick up players. No practice, and no direction, or class. Prctice, and get some sort of show happening. Dress better than the audience too. You are hired to entertain, not fill time.

T.

Unfortunately they're not all like you Gerry. First of all, you're a complete package: Great singer and player. You know your job, and bring it.:cool:

I think a lot of this hits home for many of us. Great songs and performance don't always equal great crowds. I know I am much better now than when I spent every night out at the bar, but far less people come to see us play. How is anyone going to know how good your band is unless the are there in the first place or someone has told them? Your friends come, because, well, they are your friends, then, hopefully, friends bring friends. Enough friends and friends of friends show up, and it looks like something interesting is going on, then random people start showing up. Most all of my friends now are musicians who are playing or practicing when we are, too broke and too proud to ask you to put them on the guest list or have work and family matters to attend to so they can afford the time away they will need when they have shows or practice. When I was out from happy hour to last call every night, I was hanging out with and meeting a lot of people who do go out and might actually come see us play. I am definitely not advising anyone to spend all their time and money boozing it up in the bars and clubs, but just be aware of who and where your potential audience is. It always helps to go see your buddies play or the shows at the places you have gigs at next. Your buddy and his band appreciate it and maybe come see you, and you will see some folks who do come out for live music.

I'll tell you something else killing live music. Kids don't dance. Well, at least not boys. They drink. And drink. And drink until they fall down and piss themselves. But they don't dance.

I can't tell you how many jobs we played over the last three years where there were plenty of Twenty Somethings in the crowd, most of the guys with jobs and money to blow on 40K trucks and 10K snowmobiles. And lots of attractive young ladies the same age, girls who look like models and dress like strippers. Should be the perfect crowd, right?

Wrong. Before the night is over the girls will be dancing with each other, or wind up being mauled on the dance floor by middle-aged guys who aren't afraid to ask a girl for a dance. And meanwhile all the young bucks sit there bleary-eyed and stupid, ordering three beers at a time so they don't have to walk up to the bar as often. Eventually the girls get disgusted and leave and the boys either get in fights or stagger outside to puke. Gee, what fun!

I don't know if this is something we've conditioned into Gen Z.2, or what. Maybe the boys have been told so often that no matter what they do with girls they will be in the wrong and end up acting like castratti, so to compensate they drink to prove they're macho. Or perhaps by raising the drinking age to 21 and making such a crime of underage drinking we've delayed the emotional maturity needed to treat alcohol as something beyond the prime focus of life. When I was that age you went to a place with music because not only was it fun, but there was always a chance, remote as it might have been, of getting laid. Now, all the boys care about is how much beer and whiskey 'me and the buds' can put away. Whatever the reason, it's bad news for those of us who play to these sad examples of young adulthood.

Okay, I'm done ranting!

Justin

Live music will never die.

Getting paid for playing, that is another matter.

When I go out, I don't take the vintage gear. I take the stuff that can take a beating. I'll not risk a vintage guitar and amp at a gig anymore.
Stages are smaller, bands are smaller, the pay is nowhere near what it should be.

If that isn't enough, booze costs more than ever because their overhead is higher than ever. Insurance, property taxes, it all adds up.
Club owners have to make a profit. If they don't, they go out of business.

A good Friday and or Saturday night is fine. But if they are half-empty the rest of the week, that won't cut it.

Well you may have somthing there with the castratti concept. That is prevalent all over. The women are all empowered and the men are just playthings for them. It doesn't help that friends with privledges has blunted the urgency of the hunt. If you don't have to hunt you will lose your edge and become a bloated, dispensable play toy. We used to hope that some kind of connection could happen on nights at the bar. Now they just say how about hooking up. No bar hunt required, no hunting at all. I used to think that the kids today had it made with the hookin up mantra. Now I see that it has neutered a lot of good men. No need to hone your communication skills or communicate at all. Everyone just expects to have everything now without the hard work you used to have to do to get anywhere, and I'm talking work and jobs too.
I know every generation makes it's own rules on how to play the game and it would be easy to say that I'm talking just like my gandfather did about my generation, but....
Truth is these skills or need to practice them I'm talking about are real character builders. Wonder why so many 30 something men are living in the basement of mom and dads house? They have no skills. I hire people regularly at work and I have to tell you it's shocking. I have people sleeping during orientation meetings. Do they think I don't see them? I tell the manager who hired them good luck because they can't stay awake their first day on the job. I am talking 1 person during every single hiring round.
These are usually front line jobs so I'm not expecting professionals but the people showing up for these positions are getting lazier and lazier. They really don't have any work ethic at all. We are not talking about teenagers either, early 20 somethings. The most amazing thing is at least one person per hiring round is sharp, well spoken and will be great . Now as far as I'm concerned that persons parents did something right.
They shine on the very first day and keep going. If more people understood this basic skill (at least be interested in your new job ) we would not have the turnover we have these days. Well that's my rant of the day!

And here's my amusing factlet of the day: for under 25's, 10% think it's acceptable to text during sex.

Years ago I went to a blues festival with festival seating on the lawn. There were so many people that would not sit down and therefore blocked our view that I decided then and there to swear off live music. I've never regreted it. People seem to be ruder and more inconsiderate than ever, and it's just not enjoyable to go to these events. It's the same reason my wife and I wait 'till the DVD comes out - it's no fun to go to the movie theater while people are using their cellphones to text - it looks like a field of fireflies - very distracting, to say nothing of people talking over the movie. No thanks, hangin' at home is much better.

The other thing is, with YouTube it's just too dang easy to see the titans from the couch munching on popcorn and sipping wine.

Having said that, lately I've been playing lots of private party gigs.

End of rant - I'm old and I can be crabby if I want. :mad: :wink:

Now if only they would come out with that dang Led Zep reunion DVD...

Fezz,,,yer makin' me blush! Thanks Bro! Coming from you, I consider that a major endorsment.

T.

No bar hunt required, no hunting at all. I used to think that the kids today had it made with the hookin up mantra. Now I see that it has neutered a lot of good men.

So are you saying that guys are just getting laid left and right now without even trying?? That's what it sounds like you are saying!!!! Wow. I have been out of the game (aka. married...and hopefully getting laid at some point this month) for several years, so I'm out of the loop on a lot of this.

The band I'm in, we just got started earlier this year. It has been much more of a challenge finding gigs than I would have imagined going in. But fortunately this is Houston with 5+ million people in the area so there are a bunch of places to play still.

I've been playing blues guitar for 30 year, but I won't go out and see live blues music at a club. Boring. My band we play outlaw country Texas music.. Seems to be a big market for this music down here at least.

As for the nursing homes, I have a good friend, a one-man-piano-band, and thats how he makes his living. He does 7 or 8 nursing homes a week, gets paid $150 - $200 and he only works an hour at each gig. He said it is easy, good money. Highly recommended.

So are you saying that guys are just getting laid left and right now without even trying?? That's what it sounds like you are saying!!!! Wow. I have been out of the game (aka. married...and hopefully getting laid at some point this month) for several years, so I'm out of the loop on a lot of this.

Hi, yeah that's what I'm saying. Seems that modern mass media has convinced women that they are as interested in s#x as we men are, so what the heck everyone wins. Of course I think you still have to at least not be repulsed by your FWB. I work with mostly youngun's and if I was not married I could have these hookups too, and I am OLD, relatively speaking. It's not a free for all because there are still many christian/any religion you want to insert here, people out there and their values are different. I'm glad to see them still. My maleness says it's all good w/FBT but my brain tells me it's a losing proposition. I still believe s#x should be special between two people who have at least a very close bond.

The band I'm in, we just got started earlier this year. It has been much more of a challenge finding gigs than I would have imagined going in. But fortunately this is Houston with 5+ million people in the area so there are a bunch of places to play still.

I've been playing blues guitar for 30 year, but I won't go out and see live blues music at a club. Boring. My band we play outlaw country Texas music.. Seems to be a big market for this music down here at least.

As for the nursing homes, I have a good friend, a one-man-piano-band, and thats how he makes his living. He does 7 or 8 nursing homes a week, gets paid $150 - $200 and he only works an hour at each gig. He said it is easy, good money. Highly recommended.

I work in the Assisted Living industry and what you say is absolutely on the mark. They are not the best payers in terms of cash on delivery. But they are dying for different entertainment at least once a week. The better places twice to three times a week. They are under tremendous pressure to get entertainment in regularly. When the residents are paying an average of 5000.000 to 7000.00 a month they want more than care for their money. Rightly so because the care can be an iffy proposition. Most places are a bit under staffed and turnover can be very high. Back to the point though if you want a steady income from music this is a real good way to go. Many of the sing act people have a 1 FOH pointed at the audience, a monitor or in ears, an mp3 soundtrack and a good little mixer to run it all. Some of the acts are very good. Some are bordering on totally lame, even they get a return gig as long as they are a little better next time.
We've got a guy who dresses up in a clown suit and does the balloon animal thing to a musical backround and he is a regular, gets 125.00 for 1 hr of work. He is good, but balloon art for 85 yr. olds once a month? But they never tire of him, so he is good, but......
Put together a decent one man/woman act, wheel it in on a modified hand truck and you will be set for life. I am not joking, not even a little here.
We get a woman who had her husband build her a handtruck all inclusive setup and she kills. It doesn't hurt that she can sing all the standards in key and has a good voice. She could be a Vegas act with her level of professionalism, but she is the exception not the rule. However she is booked for a year at a time. If you don't book her at least a few months ahead good luck. About the only thing you can't do is a rock type of show, they don't know the music and don't like the noise. You could do a Buddy Holly thing, even rock tunes that were very well played on the radio. You have to keep the levels down though. Pretty much anything goes as long as they are well crafted songs from the mainstream. County kills, as long as it is good. These people know good music, they have 85 yrs. of listening practice, so you need to bring your A game but you don't need to lug much equipment to the gig. They will LOVE you.

i think no matter what kind of music you play you need to get away from alcohol based entertainment and get into more entertainment based entertainment.

a huge segment of the potential audience doesn't want anything to do with bars anymore.

Years ago I went to a blues festival with festival seating on the lawn. There were so many people that would not sit down and therefore blocked our view that I decided then and there to swear off live music. I've never regreted it.

That sounds like a good time to me. If the blues is being played right you shouldn't be able to sit down. Live music is supposed to be all about having a good time.

A few years ago some dude was complaining when I was standing up at a Springsteen show (along with about 15,000 other people.) We were seated side stage and I was apparently blocking his view of the video screen. If you want to sit and watch a video stay home and get a DVD. When I'm at a show and feel like sitting down, the last thing I would imagine doing is telling others to sit.

Back to the OP - I played a rocking gig to a bar full of dancers last night. This particular club is known for booking the best bands in town so people know they're going to get a good time no matter who is playing . It's taken us well over a year to get in and I'm pretty confident that we'll be booked back. :mrgreen:

Yes, but...

young-uns - Who cares, no money

mid aged - Desperate to get out of the house and get away from spouse and babies

elders - Not dead yet and probably could go for some good live music. In many cases the 50+ crowd is where the money is. On a possibly related note, I heard a statistic that 50+ is the most sexually active age group in this country! Not sure if it's true.

That's my take on it. :lol: I'm no expert though. Just trying to be optimistic and say that if more bands would really do it right live music wouldn't be on the decline. We just have to give people a better reason to show up.
Around here, if you want to watch some seasoned citizens dance, go to a Cajun restaurant that has live French (Cajun) Music, especially on weekends. YOu'll see litle old ladies come in with walkers and canes, and when the music starts, put those in the corner, get up and do the 2 step. But, no blues, country, classic rock.

Let me preface this by saying that my band is in it more for the fun than for the money and we make no pretense of trying to earn a living at it. We play because we love to play and are veterans in our 50s and 60s. What works for us (Grand Folk Railroad) is that we play fun '60s, country and a few folk songs (our band name is something of a misnomer but we're getting known by it now) along with about 12 originals. We don't play bars where we have to go on at 10:30--we play coffee house-type places, outdoor festivals, charity gigs and stuff like that--no rowdy bars. If the place caters to original music, we play that and vice versa. Our crowd tends towards the older side, but we get a mix of everyone in the outdoor gigs.

We have a rule--no hackneyed, boring covers that you've heard live bands play over and over again. I'd rather be stung by bees than play "Mustang Sally" or "Iko Iko" or "Take It Easy" ever again. No offense to you working pros out there--I know people have to make a living and you're not going to draw a crowd playing weird stuff that people can't to, and I admire any musician who's out there actually DOING IT night after night. But we've been able to strike a balance between playing stuff people like, and stuff WE like and get off on playing. It's also very cool to see the look of surprise and happiness on peoples' faces when you play a song they like, haven't heard in years and didn't expect, like "Concrete and Clay" or "Walk on By" or "98.6" or "Hooked on a Feeling" (complete with "ooga chakkas").

i think no matter what kind of music you play you need to get away from alcohol based entertainment and get into more entertainment based entertainment.

a huge segment of the potential audience doesn't want anything to do with bars anymore.

I think this is a good point.

i think no matter what kind of music you play you need to get away from alcohol based entertainment and get into more entertainment based entertainment.

a huge segment of the potential audience doesn't want anything to do with bars anymore.

That's possibly due to drunken d***heads more than the alcohol itself.... my band is doing more & more backyard parties for the 30-50something crowds who don't want to deal with the agro & ugliness of the drunk teenager/20-somethings in pubs

Wellllllll.... I think my band just put another nail in the live music coffin on Sunday. That's all I'm gonna say about it here, but if you want the details, read further. If not, just know that we hurt live music. So if you have some problems getting shows anywhere in the world, I'm sure we may be part of the reason. Sorry, y'all.

Read all about it here: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/band-wagon/292320-incoming.html#post3591531

Man, this thread is bleak and almost depressing. Is it really that bad out there in the live music scene these days? I can see how it could be. I have not played out live in some time, although I have noticed nobody wants to pay a band jack-squat for their time and efforts to play live. Bars are hurting for customers around here I think. I never go. I mean to. I should check out the live music scene, it just seems nobody I know ,in my age group does bars anymore. I hope I am around long enough to see live music be popular again. Local bars rockin the place to jam packed dance floors. I guess eventually, a generation will come along that will once again appreciate live music. Blues, country, rock, whatever it is. A musician can earn a fair dollar for all his investment in gear, and dedication to a lifetime of practicing and mastering his instrument.

I asked him if he's hiring local bands and he said he was, but nobody was bringing a crowd.

...but he also said that many of his LOCAL bands didn't bring more of a crowd than that.

What's going on here?

Well, I know there are a lot of reasons, but maybe the main one is that bands are not in the business of supplying customers to bars.

If the club doesn't have its own clientele, then no band is going to change that. Suppose your band did have two or three gigs every weekend; how many of your friends/acquaintances/followers go out that often?

Joe-Bob makes a good point. That's why we are just playing one or two local gigs a month, increasing as we steadily build a mailing list and following.

I am sick of bands booking loads of gigs in places where clearly there is no regular crowd, turning up and having maybe three people come see them and then expecting to get a decent amount of money. Venues are not charities.

Joe-Bob makes a good point. That's why we are just playing one or two local gigs a month, increasing as we steadily build a mailing list and following.

I am sick of bands booking loads of gigs in places where clearly there is no regular crowd, turning up and having maybe three people come see them and then expecting to get a decent amount of money. Venues are not charities.

This. You can't water down your fan base if there isn't a built-in live music crowd at the bars you're playing. This is why my current band is going regional. That way, we can simultaneously develop a fan base in multiple towns and the venues are glad to see you again. You don't burn as bright, but it lasts longer that way.

Well, I know there are a lot of reasons, but maybe the main one is that bands are not in the business of supplying customers to bars.

If the club doesn't have its own clientele, then no band is going to change that.
I disagree with both points.

If a club has its own clientele, why book a band? You don't need 'em if business is already booming.

GigsbyBoyUK has a point, venues are not charities. Bands expect to show up to a built-in packed house, play some mediocre covers and get a decent paycheck? Pretty arrogant if you ask me. Music may be art, but the music business is about commerce...at every level. I try to market my own band and maintain a following (even if meager) to offer a club owner some benefit and a reason to hire us.

When booking other bands, I only hire bands who bring a crowd. It's not just their friends dropping by to say hello and have a beer, these bands have an honest-to-goodness FANBASE. They can play a bar, festival or cow pasture and people will show up to see them.

In my experience, bands without their own following of some sort who are looking for someone else to supply them with an audience are usually mediocre at best, and they tend to drive business away.

You're really missing the whole point if you don't develop your own following and if you think you can rely on clubs to supply you with an endless audience with no effort on your own part. Completely naive. And if you find it absolutely impossible to develop a following, maybe you should get a new hobby and quit bitching about venues not meeting your needs. [Not directed at you Joe-Bob, just speaking in general.]

i think no matter what kind of music you play you need to get away from alcohol based entertainment and get into more entertainment based entertainment.

a huge segment of the potential audience doesn't want anything to do with bars anymore. The DUI law inforcers have all in the world to do with it here in my hometown. People are scared of overdoing it and getting popped...

The DUI law inforcers have all in the world to do with it here in my hometown. People are scared of overdoing it and getting popped...


No Cabs or designated drivers, eh?
:neutral::wink:

No Cabs or designated drivers, eh?
:neutral::wink: Even the "better" of our cab services would scare me to ride in... :shock:

If a club has its own clientele, why book a band? You don't need 'em if business is already booming.


This is becoming an even more valid point with the modern-day ease of bringing in DJ's and or karaoke with a simple phone call. Bands are sorely mistaken if they feel bars "need" them.

You're really missing the whole point if you don't develop your own following and if you think you can rely on clubs to supply you with an endless audience with no effort on your own part. Completely naive. And if you find it absolutely impossible to develop a following, maybe you should get a new hobby and quit bitching about venues not meeting your needs.

In these days of Youtube, Reverbnation, Facebook, Itunes, etc, a band has no excuse for not getting their name, genre, and sound out there at least a little bit.... you don't have to play every night to get a fanbase started and to develop it. We recently had a gig mishap in this department and I felt extremely amateurish for it.

The DUI law inforcers have all in the world to do with it here in my hometown. People are scared of overdoing it and getting popped...

We played a New Year's Eve gig a couple years ago to an almost empty bar because the local highway patrolman, an overzealous gestapo sort fresh out of the academy, would park outside the bars and bust people the moment they started their cars. He even nailed people who _walked_ to the bar.

Justin

In these days of Youtube, Reverbnation, Facebook, Itunes, etc, a band has no excuse for not getting their name, genre, and sound out there at least a little bit.... you don't have to play every night to get a fanbase started and to develop it.

But does it help? We did all these things over the three year course of my last band and other than a few people posting on our wall it never seemed to help. And while we weren't a top tier band - in other words we weren't going on the club circuit or looking to be anyone's opening act, etc- for a bar band we were good.

Half the time we would get booked but the bar owners wouldn't even bother to call the local papers or radio for the free ads, let alone buy any advertising.

Justin

i once worked for band that had developed such a large regional base that they could count on a crowd. they stopped booking clubs all together and simply put on their own shows in rented venues. my pay doubled. this was before the internet so everything was done by mail. the key was every table in a venue had a folding band tent card and a pen when the crowd arrived. they collected names and addresses and did a monthly mailing. they rode that horse for years, even doing band sponsored ski trips and cruises. the reason for the bands appeal? they were VERY entertaining and would have put on the same show for two people in the audience as two hundred.

But does it help? We did all these things over the three year course of my last band and other than a few people posting on our wall it never seemed to help. And while we weren't a top tier band - in other words we weren't going on the club circuit or looking to be anyone's opening act, etc- for a bar band we were good.

Half the time we would get booked but the bar owners wouldn't even bother to call the local papers or radio for the free ads, let alone buy any advertising.

Justin

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. The point is: if you don't have it out there... and the gigs are harder to get... well, that's an unpleasant snowball effect. I think that in combination of actual good shows, social media networking can really develop a fanbase. How many fans have the Drive-by Truckers and Wilco picked up because of Youtube and Pandora? Does it work for everyone? Nah, but I don't see a downside to doing it.

Regarding show promotion... this proves my point even more. If the bars aren't promoting the band, then they're hurting themselves, but it's even more reason for the band to do outreach in every possible method.

If live music is dead then somebody better tell the over-the-fire-code places down on Broadway here in Nashville. They might have to shut down. For that matter all the steak houses and packed lounges too.

"The Coffin Nailers" -- I like it!

I've often wondered about what keeps venues booking live bands when your average bar patron is not that discerning between a band, a guy/girl singing to a backing track, a DJ etc. etc. and the latter two options generally cost less.

But people seem to like, at least over here, the naturalness of an actual full group of musicians as opposed to the guy singing on top of the Black Eyed Peas backing track, blasting it way too loud and bass heavy, so I don't think that live music is dying but it is getting more selective in who gets paid and who does not.

We promote through Facebook/Website business cards, posters in venue. Long gone are the days of plastering the area in posters. Why do it? It's much more efficient, effective and less intrusive to work on a friend/word of mouth basis. If you can get a patron who likes what you do to bring a friend a next time or the time after next then you're doing something right and if you can hold the stragglers, plus the people who are already there then then you're really in business.

I'm still amazed they're booking US, though. :lol:

If live music is dead then somebody better tell the over-the-fire-code places down on Broadway here in Nashville. They might have to shut down. For that matter all the steak houses and packed lounges too. Hello!!! You're in Nashville!! :wink: The music scene is not the same as most other areas. With all due respect OC...:razz:

Yeah, but you're in LaGrange.....

I know, not the same one.

But competition wise, it's got to be harder here because of the state law. Everybody has to play and sing. Too bad there is an anti-discrimination clause in there that lack of talent can't be held against you.

To a lot of folks the number of players around here is daunting. It should be inspiring. 99% of the time you should be thinking "if that clown can make a living doing this....."

I've never been to Nashville but my guess is the musicians and bands are much better there on average and that's why the music scene is better. When I was in New York I saw bands filling clubs and making money. In Orlando, not so much.

I think this whole thing is very simple, most of the bar bands in most towns these days are pretty bad and that is why no one wants to see/hear them. Even if your band is the exception to that rule you might be lumped in with the rest until you can figure out how to establish the band on the scene. I'm still on step 1, put together a good band. Once that happens I still have to deal with the crappy scene here and figure out how to make it work but I'm confident it will if the band is right.

I'd say the percentage of good-great players here is a bit higher than say Lawton, OK, but it's sheer numbers. Everybody plays. There are many, many truly world class players here. There are 1000 times (at least) more duds. What's fun is working a night with somebody and say:

-do you know the kickoff to XYZ?

-Yeah, I did the session.

It keeps going back to what I always try to get across in some of these threads. The ones that are truly great get heard because they are easy to work with. No attitudes, no egos, no anxieties, no not owning your own gear, etc. The confidence that comes from knowing your instrument takes a ton of stress off of players. That's what I try to get across to some folks in these forums. Quit worry about where you play, what you play and who you play for. Quit calling everything a "venue". Lighten up. It's art. I worry some guys here may actually take an ear off at some point they get so serious about it and it's a hobby for them! Generally when you start working every week/weekend/saturday and money is involved you kind of start overlooking the fact that the drummer has weird facial hair, the singer is always 45 minutes late and the bass player is always having car trouble. You trudge on and exchange players when you need to, not just when the piano player got drunk and said he thought your wife was hot. Little things become little things.

Now, I'm a guitar player but I'm also a bass player. I'm not just a guitar player that owns or can play bass too. There are jillions of guitar players that play all styles, know all the latest songs and dress the dress of the day. I can get through a guitar job with anybody but when playing bass I feel like I'll really add to rather than just get by. I'm not trying to say that I'm truly great but I am saying I'll jump onstage with any of the truly greats and just have a good time.

I guess we got a good ways off topic. But yeah, lots of players here and lots of places to play. The thing about Nashville is if you want to make money, make money. You can still do that here. If you want to make it, then play the crappy places where so and so got "discovered" and became a 5 year overnight sensation and play for tips and live in your car. If you haven't heard Crazy Town, it's awfully uncomfortable if it describes your Nashville experience. I moved here to hunt and fish. The fact that I could live here, play and make a living without ever hitting the road as a sideman or being someone made me feel good back when I was doing it. Now I'm lucky to feel my toes.

The rise of the sports bar killed a lot of live music opportunities.
Remember when most places had just one little TV over the bar?
Count them now.
Most bars around here have eight or more.
How can a live band compete with that... sheer volume?

I was in a cover band a few years ago, when the Atlanta braves were constantly in the playoffs. We'd go do a gig in a place like that and literally had to play during commercial breaks and before and after the game. During the game, we werent allowed to play.

There seems to be a recurring opinion that people just don't go out to bars like they used to. I don't know about that. Now me personally, I'm a family man nowadays and have given up some rowdy ways. In fact about the only time I get to a bar is when my band (classic rock, motown, whatever) plays a monthly gig at a suburban neighborhood bar. But based on that monthly observation I can tell you this for sure. People are still out there trying to get drunk and laid!!! I'm not sure that will ever really lose its appeal with the masses.

The rise of the sports bar killed a lot of live music opportunities.
Remember when most places had just one little TV over the bar?
Count them now.
Most bars around here have eight or more.
How can a live band compete with that... sheer volume?

Oh, see, you're wanting to play them there fancy pants places. I like to play places that you have to go 3 or 8 miles past where the chapel burned down in '32 and then go past the house that used to have the yeller flowers and turn left. But if you see a big brown dog, you gone too far. They pay better and might feed you. Might even have running water.

Oh, see, you're wanting to play them there fancy pants places. I like to play places that you have to go 3 or 8 miles past where the chapel burned down in '32 and then go past the house that used to have the yeller flowers and turn left. But if you see a big brown dog, you gone too far. They pay better and might feed you. Might even have running water.

That's the place next to the Chili's, right?

I'm fully aware that bars want bands to bring a crowd with them when they play somewhere.

But it's just not a rational train of thought.


For a measly two or three hundred dollars, a bar manager expects a band to not only play for several hours, but to bring in a hundred people who will collectively spend thousands in order to overpay for watery drinks and unsanitary food in a place with restrooms that will make you want to burn your shoes. :mad:

Really? :confused:

That would be a helluva deal for the owner wouldn't it? :shock:







If I wanted to be in business to do that, I would charge way, way more than $200 to $300.


It's just too much to expect for far too little; it's simply not reasonable, logical, rational thinking. :neutral:

I'm starting to do some booking for the band but these clubs are very reluctant to hand over more than $300 - $400 right now. We are a five piece and nobody wants to work for nothing. For reductions like that, I am now offering two 1 hour sets. I'm not playing for 3 hours for $40 bucks a man!! Trio's are doing alright though.....

That's the way I see it. These days you have to be a trio or 4 piece maximum for bars and clubs and that's just to get what should be a minimum rate per person.

I'm fully aware that bars want bands to bring a crowd with them when they play somewhere.

But it's just not a rational train of thought.


For a measly two or three hundred dollars, a bar manager expects a band to not only play for several hours, but to bring in a hundred people who will collectively spend thousands in order to overpay for watery drinks and unsanitary food in a place with restrooms that will make you want to burn your shoes. :mad:

Really? :confused:

That would be a helluva deal for the owner wouldn't it? :shock:







If I wanted to be in business to do that, I would charge way, way more than $200 to $300.


It's just too much to expect for far too little; it's simply not reasonable, logical, rational thinking. :neutral:

Your numbers are wide of the mark. I don't think your average bar owner expects a band to pull in a hundred people and then pay the band 200-300. What is true is that some bands play and no-one comes out to see them and they expect to do that gig after gig and keep getting paid. For a small bar owner, 300 is not 'measly' when they take not much more (or even less) on the night and have staff and bills to pay.

I guess my comments are mostly speaking to the stylistic nature of early posts.

In many ways, it is more challenging for the working musician than it was twenty or thirty years ago. I think you have to adapt a bit, and something that I do a lot is routinely talk with club and bar patrons about their likes and dislikes. Contrary to what a lot of musicians believe, there's a very healthy contingent of music loving patrons out there with great taste. They help me pay my bills, so I listen to what they have to say. I love music, but it's still business.

I love a great blues, as do many of the patrons I speak with. Much like myself, the vast majority of them just don't love it all night long. A lot (most) of the working musicians that I know/work with/sub for/go listen to (that work regularly and make decent bucks) - do include a healthy amount of blues in their sets, but pepper it among other varieties of roots-based music such as rockabilly, surf, R&B and soul, etc. A lot of patrons like earthy, organic music, but still want a bit of variety.

Demographic is certainly a player, and it's always good to pay attention to market saturation trends. In the early 90's the Atlanta area was totally overloaded with blues acts, and I helped form a cajun/zydeco act that had to turn down work because nobody had tapped the niche within the area. Also around this time, jazz and "smooth jazz" were all the rage with the yupsters, and it was easy to find a gig doing such. Not so much anymore, and the jazz is left to the cream of the crop musicians to provide to their smaller market. A music loving patron might be inclined to pursue a bluegrass act because they don't get beaten half to death with it in their local bars. Personally, I'm not going to play music I don't dig or be something I'm not just to earn a buck, but I am going to pay attention and make a few adjustments here and there in order to remain marketable.

The stylistic "all or nothing" approach can work for you or against you, depending upon how you play your cards. As mentioned previously, I play lots of blues with different acts, just not all night long. I think a lot of patrons burned out on blues because they heard it delivered so similarly for so long. I personally don't think the genre is as one dimensional as I've witnessed it performed on many occasions. The "nothin' but da blooze" acts that still thrive around here are historically well versed and they choose great songs. Additionally, they don't just do the roadhouse shuffle thing, they mix it up; old country blues, jump and swing, maybe some Ray Charles or Professor Longhair, even Miles Davis stuff like "Freddie the Freeloader".

If you're not bringing people in, why should a bar pay you ANYTHING?
Can you really expect to be paid $800/night just to entertain the staff?

Bars are supposed to cultivate an envornment that is known for its entertsinment. If that is the case, the patrons come because they will be assured to be entertained. Thats BS,,,how many folk you gonna bring!!

T.

One remedy that I have found for diminishing blues crowds in the clubs is simply having earlier shows. We do Sunday afternoon matinee shows from 2-6 pm (when the Packers aren't playing) and have had no problem filling the clubs. The older audience loves it and the bar makes money, plus it frees up Friday and Saturday nights to play other places.

I guess my comments are mostly speaking to the stylistic nature of early posts.

In many ways, it is more challenging for the working musician than it was twenty or thirty years ago. I think you have to adapt a bit, and something that I do a lot is routinely talk with club and bar patrons about their likes and dislikes. Contrary to what a lot of musicians believe, there's a very healthy contingent of music loving patrons out there with great taste. They help me pay my bills, so I listen to what they have to say. I love music, but it's still business.

I love a great blues, as do many of the patrons I speak with. Much like myself, the vast majority of them just don't love it all night long. A lot (most) of the working musicians that I know/work with/sub for/go listen to (that work regularly and make decent bucks) - do include a healthy amount of blues in their sets, but pepper it among other varieties of roots-based music such as rockabilly, surf, R&B and soul, etc. A lot of patrons like earthy, organic music, but still want a bit of variety.

Demographic is certainly a player, and it's always good to pay attention to market saturation trends. In the early 90's the Atlanta area was totally overloaded with blues acts, and I helped form a cajun/zydeco act that had to turn down work because nobody had tapped the niche within the area. Also around this time, jazz and "smooth jazz" were all the rage with the yupsters, and it was easy to find a gig doing such. Not so much anymore, and the jazz is left to the cream of the crop musicians to provide to their smaller market. A music loving patron might be inclined to pursue a bluegrass act because they don't get beaten half to death with it in their local bars. Personally, I'm not going to play music I don't dig or be something I'm not just to earn a buck, but I am going to pay attention and make a few adjustments here and there in order to remain marketable.

The stylistic "all or nothing" approach can work for you or against you, depending upon how you play your cards. As mentioned previously, I play lots of blues with different acts, just not all night long. I think a lot of patrons burned out on blues because they heard it delivered so similarly for so long. I personally don't think the genre is as one dimensional as I've witnessed it performed on many occasions. The "nothin' but da blooze" acts that still thrive around here are historically well versed and they choose great songs. Additionally, they don't just do the roadhouse shuffle thing, they mix it up; old country blues, jump and swing, maybe some Ray Charles or Professor Longhair, even Miles Davis stuff like "Freddie the Freeloader".

Excellent post. Excellent. If you're not playing what people want to hear then you won't have a crowd anywhere.

Bars are supposed to cultivate an envornment that is known for its entertsinment. If that is the case, the patrons come because they will be assured to be entertained. Thats BS,,,how many folk you gonna bring!!

T.

Can't agree with that. You're saying let's just leave it all up to the venues to build some kind of patronage. It just doesn't work like that most places. People don't often just turn up to see a band they have never heard of. As bands we have to take our share of the responsibility by building a following and promoting our gigs. It's a shared responsibility with the venues, not something that's just left to them. If I owned a venue I would want to know that the band is playing their part too.

Can we please stop calling bars and pubs "venues"?

If local bars like where most of us play have no customers, what the hell do they expect us to do about it?

I think a huge part of the issue that hasn't been mentioned is the current bar culture of the world.

I used to live in Detroit where we had a vibrant bar scene; everything was privately owned, family owned nice good bars with live music... it was great.

Now I live further north in a slightly less dense town and you know what we have here for bars?

Buffalo Wild Wings
Chilis
Outback Steakhouse
Texas Roadhouse
Logans
Bennigans
Applebees
etc...

How many of these places have live bands? How many of these places have any real culture at all? I have learned to cook since I moved up here as I refuse to eat the crap these places call food but the sad reality is that globalization has killed local culture in many places. Where I live now all you eat is what is mass produced... these places cant help local bands because there is nothing local about these chain places. No personality at all - nothing but that cheap crap that these places get to make them all look the same!

It seems as much as our cultures have mixed, we have lost what made people unique. Which is why top 40 is OK for most people.

/rant

A comment: we do draw folks at some of the places we play, and not so much at others, but the thing we do that gets us more work is this: we entertain the heck out of the folks who are there, and we tend to keep an audience around much later than they'd stay otherwise.

You gotta ENGAGE the folks! Pay attention to them, react to them. We don't even use set lists, we solicit requests (we even put out song lists so folks can request songs we actually know!), we play songs for dancing when folks seem to want to dance, we play ballads when folks want to rub belt buckles, we just try to make the night about being right there in the moment. We don't play AT the audience, we play WITH the audience.

Tim

Play with the audience? Tim, in some states that's a crime. Now, not here in the south. Especially if it's a family reunion. Yours, I mean.

Some of the worst gigs I've played involved the band being a considerable distance from the audience. That's even worse than playing in an empty room, for me anyway, because there are folks who MIGHT hear you, but they're too far away to interact with...

Tim

Your numbers are wide of the mark. I don't think your average bar owner expects a band to pull in a hundred people and then pay the band 200-300. What is true is that some bands play and no-one comes out to see them and they expect to do that gig after gig and keep getting paid. For a small bar owner, 300 is not 'measly' when they take not much more (or even less) on the night and have staff and bills to pay.

True dat. From my experience, in my part of town, if you dont sell enough alcohol to cover the bar expense of hiring you, you dont get asked back. You dont have to bring a hundred people.... no one ever does that here anyway.

True dat. From my experience, in my part of town, if you dont sell enough alcohol to cover the bar expense of hiring you, you dont get asked back. You dont have to bring a hundred people.... no one ever does that here anyway.

Doesn't matter if you play polka, karaoke, covers, original, or just mike yourself up and play the spoons.... you gotta be cost efficient for the venue. Bars are in the business of making money... not being "band-aids". The best way to make money for the bar is obviously to get a lot of serious drinkers in there and keep 'em there! haha

Yeah, but you're in LaGrange.....


Thanks for reminding me. Now I'm just depressed....:sad: :lol:

When I lived in Lawton I actually worked with a guy from there. I'm sure you know him, right?