Good way to explain why i should use an amp and board over processor

At my church, we have about 5-6,000 people and a huge very nice sound system. Every guitar player in the church (for main worship, youth, college Etc.) uses an amp and a board and we put them in iso boxes. But I started playing in the children's area and all the sound guys and the drummer don't understand the superiority of this. They want me to get a POD or the Zoom one. But I just place my amp under the stage and take the heat they give me about it. How can I explain the awesomeness of analog effects and tube tone!?

Welcome to 2011!
Kids eh! If it takes any trouble to do it, they're not interested...

Ask them if they would like a big juicy hamburger, then give them a soy burger and tell them it's the same thing as a real burger.

Amen @PinewoodRo!!

Ask them if they would like a big juicy hamburger, then give them a soy burger and tell them it's the same thing as a real burger.

Haha! I love this! ^

I know some people love multi-effects processors (different strokes for different folks) but FOR ME they sound sterile. I love the tube feel and picking dynamics. No $200 board can emulate thousands of dollars worth of pro rig.

Children's worship especially is suitable for a tube amp. My wife directs the children's worship service for our church so i am often called on to play. The kids seem to really get excited and get really engaged when I use a tele and a tube amp. Its just better and more real and the kids know it. I used a DI into the board this past Sunday and my wife got onto me for not using an amp.

What size amp are we talking about? I'm guessing they are not using acoustic drums either. If your amp is big enough for an isolation cab, why not just use a smaller amp that is more comparable to stage monitor volume. That way you can keep it next to you angled at your head. Or are you using in-ear monitors? I don't go for that. If your sound guys are completely against any stage volume, then you have a tough row to hoe.

What size amp are we talking about? I'm guessing they are not using acoustic drums either. If your amp is big enough for an isolation cab, why not just use a smaller amp that is more comparable to stage monitor volume. That way you can keep it next to you angled at your head. Or are you using in-ear monitors? I don't go for that. If your sound guys are completely against any stage volume, then you have a tough row to hoe.

7-15 watts. I keep it on the 7 and at about 70% volume. All under the stage so no stage volume. And yes we use in-ears and an electric drumset.

I read posts like this and wonder if we really complicate things at churches. You just don't come across it anywhere else (well I don't, FWIW). Iso boxes, under-stage amp positions, DI directly into the desk, in-ear monitoring, line-outs, Pods and the like – kind of makes me wonder why we bother with electric guitars if we can't do as intended and plug them into an amp on stage and play!

Since you have a way to keep stage volume under control, I'd say there is not a very compelling arguement against using your amp. I think your strongest arguement for using your amp is that you aren't required to go out and spend money on a modeler.

Now if you want to talk about the merits of amp and pedal board vs. digial modeling...well I'm pretty sure that falls under the category of "religious discussion" and might be in violation of this forum's rules :razz:

How can I explain the awesomeness of analog effects and tube tone!?

You can't... because no one in the church cares about it, except maybe a couple of other guitar players.

I read posts like this and wonder if we really complicate things at churches. You just don't come across it anywhere else (well I don't, FWIW). Iso boxes, under-stage amp positions, DI directly into the desk, in-ear monitoring, line-outs, Pods and the like – kind of makes me wonder why we bother with electric guitars if we can't do as intended and plug them into an amp on stage and play!

I feel the same way about this. Maybe it would be helpful to reconnect with what makes the electric guitar something that people like to hear. Or for that matter, what is about the electric that some folks don't like.

I play out with tube amps, noisy pickups, 60 Hz hum from the stage lights, and when I want high gain you can tell from the increased background noise what is about to come. I personally love that stuff, in live music, when the lead player kicks in a boost or drive just before the solo and you hear that change. Modeling is just so sterile to me, even when it emulates that stuff. You're right, maybe worship music in a church shouldn't include real electric guitar, it seems to be too polarizing. FWIW, when I want to jam and let it all loose, I go unplugged and play acoustics and I have never got a complaint about being too loud or too showy or that I overplayed. Which tells me perhaps the issue really is the pointy shape of the axe, the coily cable, and the perhaps beatup, maybe even bar-worn, beer-stained amp drawing attention instead of the music. Get that stuff out of sight, either under the stage or shrunk down into firmware burned onto a microchip. Why stop there... just sample the sounds and let the keyboard player control them and do away with the pointy thing altogether.

I feel the same way about this. Maybe it would be helpful to reconnect with what makes the electric guitar something that people like to hear. Or for that matter, what is about the electric that some folks don't like.

I play out with tube amps, noisy pickups, 60 Hz hum from the stage lights, and when I want high gain you can tell from the increased background noise what is about to come. I personally love that stuff, in live music, when the lead player kicks in a boost or drive just before the solo and you hear that change. Modeling is just so sterile to me, even when it emulates that stuff. You're right, maybe worship music in a church shouldn't include real electric guitar, it seems to be too polarizing. FWIW, when I want to jam and let it all loose, I go unplugged and play acoustics and I have never got a complaint about being too loud or too showy or that I overplayed. Which tells me perhaps the issue really is the pointy shape of the axe, the coily cable, and the perhaps beatup, maybe even bar-worn, beer-stained amp drawing attention instead of the music. Get that stuff out of sight, either under the stage or shrunk down into firmware burned onto a microchip. Why stop there... just sample the sounds and let the keyboard player control them and do away with the pointy thing altogether.

Maybe we should put a really sterile Karaoke CD on and we can all sing along to that. That seems to be where it's heading.
The amp, the guitar, the player, the room, and the position of the amp in the room are all too important to mess with. Anyone who has ever recorded could (or should) tell you how important the amp and its position is.
For the record, I wasn't saying do away with electrics, I'm just trying to get my head around it.
All this modelling and DI-ing etc really has me worried, especially as I'm yet to hear of it happening outside of a Christian context. What are the sound guys worried about? It's got me beat.

because its your guitar tone and you can run it through whatever you want,and everybody else can run theirs through whatever they want!!

I agree with what others have said. Churches are the only places I have seen soundmen feel the "need" to have zero stage volume. That's how my church is and it drives me nuts! Within the last year I talked them into letting me use my amp on stage and run it into a 1x12 speaker cab in an iso box offstage, but that was like pulling teeth and they still rag me about it all the time. It seems as though if it takes any amount of work on their part, the sound guys aren't willing to do it. Best of luck to you in your sound struggles. I wish you the best of luck!

On weeks that I'm not playing, I volunteer on our tech team. It has been a fantastic learning experience watching and learning from 2 of our really talented sound guys. They are volunteers just like I am. They work as hard as anybody else to ensure that we have a great sounding mix. I've learned a two extremely valuable lessons from them:

1. That precious tone that we've perfected in isolation usually disappears in the mix...and it's not the sound guys fault.
2. You cannot effectively mix from stage. And, once stage volume gets out of control, there is not much the sound man can do.

What can I say, church is a more volume sensitive environment that a concert hall or a show at a bar. It doesn't mean you can't have guitar driven music, but sometimes it does mean taking extra care with your volume. There are different ways to address that, though...amp rooms, iso-cabs, modelers...*gasp* everyone turning down :shock: Unfortunately, it really sounds like a bunch of churches get set on one way of doing it and the default answer is "just use a modeler."

Our guitarist are running a mix of solutions. Some of us use our tube amps into iso-cabs, some of us use modelers direct. All of us are tone hounds...and all of us have dialed in our choice of solution to sound great in the mix. I switched over to a modeler when the POD HD stuff came out. A year later, I truthfully prefer it to my amp and pedal board. I'm not trying to convince everyone that modelers are the way to go. They are not for everyone. But I routinely have folks - some guitarists, some not - asking about my rig. Most of the guitarist walk away shaking their head in disbelief that I'm using a POD. One guy last week said my tone "was so juicy, I could just take a bite out of it"...no lie. That was probably the weirdest complement I've ever gotten :lol: He refused to believe I was running a POD direct.

To those who are concern that modelers are contributing to the downfall of music, I would say, fear not! It is just another tool in the toolbox. I hope no one is ever forced to use one if they don't want to. But the makers of them are not out to destroy your tube amps!

I agree with what others have said. Churches are the only places I have seen soundmen feel the "need" to have zero stage volume....

While churches may have the lock on "zero" stage volume, there are new threads every week here about needing a smaller amp cause sound guys at venues say turn down. It's kinda funny but when I try to think about which sound guys are the most fun and which are miserable, the guys that let me turn up seem to be the happiest, most fun, encouraging people.

Well put SngleCoil! I have no problem with people using modelers, as long as they WANT to. I used to use a POD XT Live and good tones are to be had in the high quality modelers that are being made these days. It's amazing how far they have come in 10-15 years. For me, I just spent way too much time tweaking knobs and plugging into and out of a computer each week to get and save the tones I wanted. Now, I am able to just set up my amp and pedalboard and practice, without tweaking like crazy. I do not completely dismiss user error or complete anal-retentiveness in regard to my constant POD tweaking, but it was still time away from practicing the actual songs and not the tones. Again, I am not anti-modeler, just anti-being forced to use a modeler. Aain, good luck in your situation and let us know how things turn out!

Would a race car driver settle for a copy of Gran Tourismo 5 instead of a Corvette?

The actual guitar is only half the instrument. The amp is the other half. The electric guitar is not electric as in "electronic" it's electric as in "electro-magnetic." Meaning pickups and SPEAKERS.

You can be nice about it, but ask the drummer if he'd (or she'd) be ok with a keyboard that has drum samples programmed into it. Or the vocalists if they wouldn't mind using a Stephen Hawking setup instead of a microphone.

Using a Pod instead of a tube amp reminds of when I was talking to a tech about hooking up a equalizer to my expensive stereo and he asked me, "Are you sure you want to hook Up a $120 eq to your system?" I've used digital and analog pedals, multi FX units, tube amp and solid state. I use a POD regularly, you can fool some of the people some of the time but the the bottom line is that a POD or solid state amp is not going to replace my Rivera K-Tre or Clubster or Gibson Goldtone. It is not authentic.

The actual guitar is only half the instrument. The amp is the other half. The electric guitar is not electric as in "electronic" it's electric as in "electro-magnetic." Meaning pickups and SPEAKERS.

Yep, what he said. So even putting aside the debate about tube amps verses solid state, I am in the camp that believes my instrument extends through the cable (possibly pedals?) into an amp driving speaker(s). It could even be a modeling amp, but the speaker has to be part of the equation, or it just doesn't feel right to me. When I choose my "instrument", I am selecting a guitar, possibly effects, and an amp to suit the specific task at hand.

Don't ask me to line out (assuming the amp supports that) and if my sound needs to be added to the mix, put a mic in front of my amp. If my stage volume is too loud, I am not turning my rig down, but I am OK with the amp under the stage (and I better get me loud and proud in my monitor mix). If those solutions don't work I guess I would have to consider whether my instrument is the right choice for the church's format. Fortunately it has not come to that for me :cool:

Bingo!

If I am not allowed to use my amp, then bottom line is the church doesn't really want electric guitar in their worship service. What they want is a guy on stage holding an electric guitar so that "young, hip" people will see it and think that this is a "young, hip church that speaks to me and my generation," but that they can still turn so far down that no one can hear it so as not to offend people who think anything other than pipe organ comes straight from satan's loins.

This thread's really gotten my interest! Just a question for everyone, when you play in church, do you always play with the same people or could it be with anyone who's rostered on?

I lead a band at church: same drummer, bass player, singers, a hot piano player (my wife), and two guitars (usually both electric). I often play acoustic or do half-half depending on the songs I've selected for the service. The other guitarist will always play electric and that's what I want him to do.

We rehearse together and have something of a signature sound going on and put our own stamp on the songs our church does. Not showy, but we think it through and work out what tones fit and what arrangements fit. We know each other's styles well, we compliment each other. He is a lead player, I am not, but we tend to do more of a Keef/Ronnie Wood weave thing than a strict rhythm and lead set up.

Our church is made up of children through to 80+ year olds. It's tough, actually impossible, to do a set of songs that everyone is going to like. But the congregation know that. We predominantly have people in their 30s, 40s and 50s who grew up on rock and roll and they want that reflected in the music we play. Nothing outrageous but they're happy to have a few guitars on stage going through amps. We've had nothing but encouragement and compliments and I put a lot of that down to doing what we do tastefully.

The stage volume thing is interesting too. We usually mic the amps, even though it's a smallish but modern church building (probably 400 people max capacity). The amps are there for us to hear ourselves and each other and to give 'life' and 'air' to what we're doing. Presence is probably the best word. But the mics for the amps (the piano is mic'd and the bass amp has a line-out to the desk), means that the sound engineer can mix it all for the room.

Finally, ever noticed how your sound/tone might sound wonderful on it's own but woeful with the band? But when the band's really happening, your individual tone might actually be dreadful on its own? It's all about the mix and what works in the context of the song. Engineers should be listening for this and making those useful suggestions. In a sense they are the producers on the day.

Sorry for the long post; I'm just really interested in this and I hope we can all give each other some ideas and inspiration.

On weeks that I'm not playing, I volunteer on our tech team. It has been a fantastic learning experience watching and learning from 2 of our really talented sound guys. They are volunteers just like I am. They work as hard as anybody else to ensure that we have a great sounding mix. I've learned a two extremely valuable lessons from them:

1. That precious tone that we've perfected in isolation usually disappears in the mix...and it's not the sound guys fault.
2. You cannot effectively mix from stage. And, once stage volume gets out of control, there is not much the sound man can do.


Yup. Most guitarists that complain about sound guys have no idea how tough it is to get & maintain a good mix... especially when those same guitarists are constantly working against them. And most guitarists give no thought to how they sound in the mix... or even how their amp sounds once they mic it & run it through the PA. With most church PAs, their amp ends up sounding like a digital modeler anyway. :shock:



I switched over to a modeler when the POD HD stuff came out. A year later, I truthfully prefer it to my amp and pedal board. I'm not trying to convince everyone that modelers are the way to go. They are not for everyone. But I routinely have folks - some guitarists, some not - asking about my rig. Most of the guitarist walk away shaking their head in disbelief that I'm using a POD. One guy last week said my tone "was so juicy, I could just take a bite out of it"...no lie. That was probably the weirdest complement I've ever gotten :lol: He refused to believe I was running a POD direct.


I did the same thing. I got tired of the constant balancing act between stage volume, amp hiss through the PA, house volume, floor space on stage... and being a good example to the rest of the team. I went with a Tech 21 "Blonde" Character pedal, then spent an evening at church, sitting out in the house & dialing it in, to sound like my '59 Bassman LTD playing clean. I run my pedalboard into the Blonde, and the Blonde straight to the PA... and it sounds great. The first week, the sound guy was convinced I had hidden my amp off-stage, and I get more compliments now on my sound from the other gear heads that attend, than I ever did with my amps. When we play outdoors, I split my signal after my pedalboard, run one side to the Blonde, and the other side to the Bassman... it's pretty tough to tell them apart.



Side note: I'm always kind of saddened by some of the responses in these types of threads... the "if I can't play MY RIG, I won't play," or even worse, "if I can't play MY RIG, I'll still play, but I'll complain & pout & try to make everyone else miserable." Leading worship is not about you, your rig, tube tone, analog delay, or you getting your way. It's about serving the congregation, and leading them into a time of worship with music... and the only thing the congregation cares about is that it sounds good & that the band is not a distraction. And a skillful musician will find a way to make it sound good whether he's playing a Dumble, Pro Jr, or POD; and with a servant's heart, it'll be done joyfully. :wink:

Side note: I'm always kind of saddened by some of the responses in these types of threads... the "if I can't play MY RIG, I won't play," or even worse, "if I can't play MY RIG, I'll still play, but I'll complain & pout & try to make everyone else miserable." Leading worship is not about you, your rig, tube tone, analog delay, or you getting your way. It's about serving the congregation, and leading them into a time of worship with music... and the only thing the congregation cares about is that it sounds good & that the band is not a distraction. And a skillful musician will find a way to make it sound good whether he's playing a Dumble, Pro Jr, or POD; and with a servant's heart, it'll be done joyfully. :wink:

I definitely do not disagree with what you are meaning to say here, brother, but be careful that you are not going too far and characterizing guitarists in a negative light who have strong feelings about what they play on. I personally would not volunteer to play on a worship team that insisted I leave me amps at home, any more than I would volunteer to play on a team that asked me to play drums regularly. I can play drums, a little, but I am not interested in that. I would serve in some other way (perhaps behind the desk!). So, here, I'll admit it: "I need my amps to play". Maybe that makes me less of an electric guitarist... so be it. If that really does become part of the ministry description I would need to let someone else do it, and I wouldn't complain or pout, but would probably ask if I could switch to acoustic.

I definitely do not disagree with what you are meaning to say here, brother, but be careful that you are not going too far and characterizing guitarists in a negative light who have strong feelings about what they play on.

But that is exactly my point... it's a huge negative when those "strong feelings" become an issue of pride & stubbornness in regards to serving. I love tube amps as much as anyone here, but serving in a worship ministry is not about tube amps and how much I love them, or whether electronic drums don't sound like acoustic drums, or whether 5-string basses are better than 5-string basses, and on, and on, and on. It's about something bigger than those things, and about humbling myself in order to serve others and put their needs before my own.


I personally would not volunteer to play on a worship team that insisted I leave me amps at home, any more than I would volunteer to play on a team that asked me to play drums regularly. I can play drums, a little, but I am not interested in that. I would serve in some other way (perhaps behind the desk!). So, here, I'll admit it: "I need my amps to play". Maybe that makes me less of an electric guitarist... so be it.

I can really appreciate that you wouldn't volunteer if you couldn't use your amp... many folks would volunteer and then argue & fight about it. To me, though, you're possibly robbing yourself (and the congregation!) of some huge blessings by not serving on the worship team as an electric guitarist... over something so insignificant in the scheme of things. If we're there to serve the congregation, and the congregation doesn't care about our tube amps, why make it the reason you won't play?

Side note: We have a guy visiting our church from Russia, where he's the worship leader at his church. He's been here about a month, and has been playing acoustic guitar with our band. He's a fantastic player and loves to play... but doesn't get hung up about the "stuff." Last week, shortly before service, he asked if he could play my Tele (backup guitar) instead of the acoustic that he'd been playing. I plugged him into the "emergency" Bad Monkey that I keep in my gig bag, and ran from the cab sim output to a DI box and then to the board. The clean sound was actually pretty good, and it took him about 5 min to dial in the dirty sound that he wanted. We played a killer set, had a blast, he sounded great, folks got blessed, and it didn't matter a bit (to him or anyone else) that he wasn't playing through a tube amp.


If that really does become part of the ministry description I would need to let someone else do it, and I wouldn't complain or pout, but would probably ask if I could switch to acoustic.

We don't allow acoustic amps either. :mrgreen: Seriously, that's a good way to go about it, and as the leader, I would appreciate that much more than complaining & pouting. But I would definitely encourage you to try being more flexible, and see how it works out... you might be pleasantly surprised at the results. :wink:

Aussie Matt,

Our adult worship musician pool consists of 6 electric guitarist, 1 acoustic guitarist (the worship pastor), 3 bassists, 3 keyboard players, 3 drummers, a percussionist, a saxophoninst, and occasionally a separate pianist. That basically gives us 3 full bands in rotation. While we are all assigned a rotation with the same musicians, people's work schedules end up having us mix and match musicians more often than not. We are definitely blessed with some incredibly talented musicians and a fantastic worship pastor. As a result, we generally have no issues gelling regardless of how we end up mixed and matched on any given week.

Our congregation, from young to old, has really embraced the style of worship music we play. They certainly don't mind loud guitars. A couple of years ago, though, we recognized that things were getting out of control volume-wise. We have acoustic drums, and at that time they were unshielded. We had amps on stage miced, but because the drummer (in my band in particular) was very loud, the amps were turned up loud enough for us to monitor over the drums. By the time all was said and done, we were hitting 100+ dB in the back of the worship center. The folks in the first few rows were getting blown away. The sounds guys had no control, so the mix was terrible. We had to do something to address stage volume.

The first step was shielding the drums and putting some acoustic treatment on the cinder block wall behind us on stage. That helped tremendously, but we guitarist no longer had an excuse to crank our amps to their sweet spots :smile: The church agreed to get a couple of iso-cabs for the guitarist and put everyone on in-ear monitors. Not going to lie. That was a rough transition. But we all got it working well enough, and the mix in the house was infinitely better. The in-ears allowed us to start playing to click tracks and loops. Again, it took some getting used to, but it has really tightened us up as a band.

Iso-cabs are an okay solution, but not perfect. To me they really sound boxy and very constipated, for lack of a better description. A couple of us tried modelers and they sounded ok in the house, but the feel (or lack thereof) was too much of a compromise. None of us were really willing to drop money on the high-end modeling stuff like AxeFX. The POD HD stuff came out and finally had enough of the "feel" thing down and was not so cost prohibitive that a couple of us decided to give it another go. A year later and 4 of our 6 guitarist are on POD HDs. One of the remaining two is in the process of selling some gear to get one...and one probably will never give up his amps, and that is okay!

Now your observation on dialing in tones to sit well in the mix is right on. I'll never forget working on my setup for a couple of hours one afternoon getting a gorgeous tone dialed in. I stayed back at the mixing board to hear what it sounded like with the full band and was heartbroken we that awesome tone sounded like a muddled mess in the full mix. A couple of tweaks and I had something that sounded very nice....until I played it in isolation and thought it was terrible.

Hey Ford guy... I drive a Dodge... whatever... IMO if you have to try and explain it, they won't get it, AND they don't have to. I would think that in the big picture it's about offering up a song in praise. I use both with a splitter, but we're not up on a stage either...

I was going to post this, but mrSlush beat me to it.
The actual guitar is only half the instrument. The amp is the other half. The electric guitar is not electric as in "electronic" it's electric as in "electro-magnetic." Meaning pickups and SPEAKERS.An electric guitar and an amplifier are two halves of a whole.

Oh, this, too:
Ask them if they would like a big juicy hamburger, then give them a soy burger and tell them it's the same thing as a real burger.

You have to stay objective with this discussion. They don't care about tubes and tone and analog and digital - and they can't tell the difference either.

So do this: Ask them what their stage volume target is. (That's what this is all about). Something like "what max db reading do you want to have sitting in the front row with mains off and the electric guitar playing?" Then see if you are already meeting that with your iso-box. First see if you can get them to agree that it can be at least as loud as the piano, or the drum set, or something like that, or else they will say something ridiculously low.

The problem with these nebulous arguments is no one ever establishes a goal. Agree on a goal, and then see the different ways you can meet that goal. when you've met it, everyone is happy and no one is wondering if they got the short end of the stick in what has transpired.