How do you get new gigs?

The new band I'm in is off and running. We've got our 4 piece with all the members getting along great and doing what they need to do. We got our 50 songs and more on the way. We have a demo CD, facebook page, web page, marketing package, business cards, an account on gigmasters. We go to lots of clubs and hand out our marketing package with the demo CD and business cards and then call them back a week later. We go and play open mic nights for free to get our name out and meet new people and make contacts.

But its still a ton of work lining up new gigs for a new band.

Any other suggestions on how you market your band? Any other resources we should be using? When you were in a new band starting out, how did you ramp up to get to the "big time"? I guess at some point we'll meet an agent type person who can help us find gigs.. for a price of course.


Thx for suggestions.. take care...

From my experience" big time" is only going to come if you or one of your band mates write, and even then it's going to take some time. Serious time! You may start with covers but eventually you must write. Gotta pitch em to the right people and network every chance you get. Over and over again. Good youtube vids that are kick A will help, especially if you get lots of "hits". Agents should charge 15-20% by the way but get ready to travel, a lot, and play places you might not like. Your name has to be plastered every where, get the "buzz" going, it's momentum man. I haven't "made it" yet but I aint quitting either.

We once had flyers with our next dates to place them at the venues we played. So people have something to take home and to remember.
Update your website regularly, so people are encouraged to come back regularly. Write stories about the band or specific members to make them feel like part of the family and to prove that there's always something going on in the band.
The content of the whole "package" is important, but the "wrapper" is what they see first.

:wink:

I've been out of it for years, but when I was steady gigging we first put together a promo pack, photo, demo tape (yes it was that long ago), bio of band, and songlist. Then literally went to every place that had live music (back then there were live music bars on every corner). We lived in Tampa, and just went all over Tampa Bay. And once we got in the door we were on their rotation and had regular gigs there. Eventually word spread and other bars started calling us - we charged a decent price, were very profesional, easy to get along with.

Good luck.

I haven't "made it" yet but I aint quitting either.

63 years old. You da man, muud.


Big, first question, are you guys any good? Sure you are. Next, what kind of stuff do you play? Go to those places and meet the other bands. The owners need to be met and sweet talked but if the band playing there right now, drawing a crowd can put in a good word, right now, that always helps. They also know who to talk to and what kind of money to expect. As said above, network. I know, it takes time.

All great suggestions, IMO. Never been in anything more than a fun-time, garage band so I'm definitely not in the know.

From what a few friends that were in good, respected local/regional bands (that unfortunately never made any $$) have told me, "... if you're really good, gigs find you."

Probably not what you want to hear but...

But its still a ton of work lining up new gigs for a new band.

You bet - and unlikely to be any different for most bands.

The thing you haven't told us about is what sort of music are you playing? This can make a big impact on how many gigs you can get.

From what a few friends that were in good, respected local/regional bands (that unfortunately never made any $$) have told me, "... if you're really good, gigs find you."



And that's why they never made any money. If it's going to be a job (meaning you get paid, even if you do it part time) then it's no different than selling cars, going to a job interview at a burger place or running for office. You got to sell yourself. If you're neighbors are the only ones that ever hear you then you need to be really good to keep the cops from showing up but that ain't gonna get no work for ya.

But its still a ton of work lining up new gigs for a new band.

...

Welcome to the real world.

In my town, the "music scene" has all but dissolved into the clubs vs the bands thing... all the clubs care about is "how many people can you bring" and if you dont bring enough, and they dont drink enough beer, then its "sorry the receipts arent there, we cant use you".

So for my area, its all about how you can put butts in the seats.

I tried everything, anything I could think of, to get people to show up... with todays in home entertainment, no easy trick.

Accept the fact that you will work long hours on weekends and holidays for little or no pay.

Sadly, sometimes the 'product' has to prove itself by low-balling the competition.
Around here, there are some A-holes low-enough to lie about other bands to get the gig.

Case-in-point: I have a buddy who found out his gig was cancelled when a rival band told the club owner my buddy's band couldn't do the gig!!! Talk about chicken-*****!!!

Did anybody call my buddy to verify? No.

They were out, just like that.

These two rivals have known each other for years, they have even played together in the past.

Watch your back, you never know when you'll find a knife wound in it!

~ST

Welcome to the real world.

In my town, the "music scene" has all but dissolved into the clubs vs the bands thing... all the clubs care about is "how many people can you bring" and if you dont bring enough, and they dont drink enough beer, then its "sorry the receipts arent there, we cant use you".

So for my area, its all about how you can put butts in the seats.

I tried everything, anything I could think of, to get people to show up... with todays in home entertainment, no easy trick.

My band is going through that now. We're scratching and clawing -- fortunate that we're playing a few places on a regular rotation, but it's like pulling teeth to get people out to listen to live music anymore -- and my band is one of the better ones in the area.

Consider the reality of trying to get people to come out to a gig at a smoky bar where a loud band plays. Just think about how much entertainment is literally beamed into peoples houses now. You're competing with 500 channels of cable, pay per view, computer gaming and the internet. If you're playing classic rock or old school country, you also have to figure that most of your target audience, is already in bed asleep by the time you hit the stage.

Well, the drunks I play for for are starting to heard about that internet thing. Some have hear of facebook. I get the impression they would have joined if it was called beerbook or ^*%)^*book. I hear a few even have a place to live now so my days playing may be numbered.

The musicians I know who are always working are booked via a booking agency.
Those who book themselves don't work nearly as much.

Many threads on this...but you're doing what you need to do:
Send media kits to booker. Hang out at club, talk to booker. Call booker back in a week. Repeat.

Lately, though, we've had a lot of success with city gigs and private parties.

Sounds like you're doing all the right things... Once the first couple gigs happen, usually more start to role.

One piece of advice that I didn't see. Fight the temptation to take a freebie to get "exposure".

Sounds like you're doing all the right things... Once the first couple gigs happen, usually more start to role.

One piece of advice that I didn't see. Fight the temptation to take a freebie to get "exposure".

That's a certainty,if you want to play 'charity' gigs you'll never have a free day ever again,but no money either.

I can't speak for other countries,but in our fair isle original material bands have a hard time,some of the venues now charge the band for the privilege of playing. You need to have belief and staying power,it's a long haul for most.

The bands who are making money are those who have sold their soul and play all the rubbish of the day at weddings and functions. I know this because it's what I do.:roll:

The world is clean upside down and the tasteless majority call the shots.

Hope I don't sound too bitter. :lol:

Best wishes.

Good luck in my area getting an "agent" that is anything else except a guitar player trying to book his own band. Hah. Not making this up, theres a bunch of them out there.

We do have a couple of large agencies, but they only book the giant "corporate party" bands, those mondo-productions with ten band members, 8 disco dancers, four lead singers.. they wont even touch a "bar band" thing.

well two things come to mind...

Define BIG TIME and

as you drop of packages who are you dropping them with ?

It's simple. Go to the club where you hope to play. Go early and put a little "sumthin'" in the scheduled band's food or drink while they're soundchecking. When they become unable to play, tell the manager that you have a great band that could be there in ten minutes. Tell him you'll play for less money and half the bar tab. Then gather up your posse and use the other band's gear to play your show. Play loud, you want to make sure they can hear you greatness. Be sure to drink a lot, it'll improve your stage presence. And hit on every attractive woman in the place even if she is the owner's wife. She'd going to dump him anyway.

That usually works, but somehow we never get asked back for a second booking. :wink:

Very interesting thread. I'm in that same exact situation. Unfortunately, I'm slowly coming to the realization that it is way harder to book gigs when you cover Buck Owens and Faron Young than Lynyrd Skynyrd and Bon Jovi. To make matters worse, we write a lot of our songs... We are the only Country band in our area and a lot of places will not hire us because there is typically no ready-made audience for that type of music. I know we could draw a crowd and build a following if someone gave us a steady regular monthly gig... The search is on...

I answer the phone when My booking agent calls:wink:

This drummer friend of mine could sell ice to an eskimo. He's an old marketing dog like me and he REALLY knows how to lie, er, um, I mean, liberally embellish. This guy used to be able to get his band gigs all over the area but even he says now its harder and harder... AND he's also running into the "cant bring enough people out to keep from getting fired" thing.

we all need to face it... when the economy is tough, bands suffer because its harder to get people to come out and hear you. Bars tighten the belts and pay less money and they sure as hell are not going to do any promotion for their club themself... in their opinion, thats what they are hiring the band for.

A LOT of musicians take offense at that, and are forever pissed off and at war with club owners for that attitude.. to me, the anger is a waste of time... its the bar owners game and you have to play it their way, if you want to play at all.

Oh i forgot to mention, my drummer friend told me, this is how you do it:

you meet the bar owner in person, to drop of your package, if at all possible.

Then you start calling them. Repeatedly. Dont give up. Make a nuisance of yourself. Eventually, so says my friend, they will tell you one of two things:

"I'll give you guys a chance to play if thats what it takes to get you to stop calling"

or


"dont call me anymore, I'm NEVER booking your band".

He says usually its the first one. I've had band members who dropped off a package, then complained the bar manager never called them. Haha. It doesnt work that way.

The thing about it is this, it is very competitive and you are not the only one dropping off packages or visiting the owner. Imperative to be above the fray, clean, neat and professional. Act like you are a professional. Generally speaking , a few minutes with the actual person WHO BOOKS WILL GET YOU 1 GIG. If you are dropping off a promo kit with someone other than the manager or whoever books, odds are it will never come to be. They may or may not want to hear a CD demo ..bring one and be prepared.

If you represent yourself well and are willing to negotiate on a first gig, odds are you will come away with a gig. If you act like a rock and roll guitar player who thinks they should be handed a gig because you can play Louie Louie and Satisfaction..well..you know what I mean here...


Caution, if you drop off a package with someone other than the one who actually books, you may be handing a package to someone connected to another band..and you know whats gonna happen to that package...Best to call ahead, make an appointment when the owner is on site...Also try not to do this when the bar is slammed or busy..actually , do not do it when the bar is slammed or busy...

Don't be afraid to bring an acoustic guitar with you and sing a few songs right on the spot...we have done this in the past...

The thing about it is this, it is very competitive and you are not the only one dropping off packages or visiting the owner. Imperative to be above the fray, clean, neat and professional. Act like you are a professional. Generally speaking , a few minutes with the actual person WHO BOOKS WILL GET YOU 1 GIG.


Also try not to do this when the bar is slammed or busy..actually , do not do it when the bar is slammed or busy...

...


Your first point I dont agree with at all, altho, that may be your experience and perhaps you are a fabulous negotiator or perhaps your band has a long history that speaks for itself. Our package was pretty good BUT we rarely got hired on the spot. Occasionally. It helped if they had heard of us, or knew one of us, or had seen us someplace else, or they knew we had played at some other rival bar in town and had done well there.

Your second point I do agree with. Its a lot easier to sit down with the bar manager/owner on a dead Tuesday afternoon than it is at night when the place is hopping and loud.

And yes, giving your package or CD or whatever to someone besides the owner/manager, is probably not ever going to get you anywhere.

Case in point: A long time ago we used to play this one place regularly, I was on first name basis with the entire staff. I called to get "that months gig" and didnt talk to the band booking manager guy, I talked to the head waitress that we all knew. She told me she was doing the booking on the guys days off, and yes, she scheduled us a gig for a month in advance.

Evening of the scheduled gig, we show up and lo and behold, another band has already set up. Not only did head waitress NOT tell the booking guy that she had "booked us", but she did also NOT write our "gig" down on his calendar... and the biggest mistake of all, made by ME... I never called back to speak to HIM, not her, to confirm.

Live and learn, lads (and ladies, if any are reading this)

Ok I'll change it to


" a few minutes with the actual person WHO BOOKS MAY land YOU 1 GIG"

I think it really depends on the conversation, the give and take..if it goes well..then good..if it goes bad..well..not good .

Sometimes the package is only part of the deal, you are selling, you are selling yourself and your band. You are asking someone to give you money for playing music. You are in a direct conversation. You really need to know if they feel your music fits the venue, you may think it does but they need to think it does. You can actually ask that question...

I don't know if I am a great negotiator or not but I am a sales guy and have been for years . Some club owners are willing and easy to work with right away, some are bears that you have to walk a fine line with. You don't learn that until you are toe to toe with them.

just my views, not saying it's the only view...

t

Oh i forgot to mention, my drummer friend told me, this is how you do it:

you meet the bar owner in person, to drop of your package, if at all possible.

Then you start calling them. Repeatedly. Dont give up. Make a nuisance of yourself. Eventually, so says my friend, they will tell you one of two things:

"I'll give you guys a chance to play if thats what it takes to get you to stop calling"

or


"dont call me anymore, I'm NEVER booking your band".

He says usually its the first one. I've had band members who dropped off a package, then complained the bar manager never called them. Haha. It doesnt work that way.

Totally agree wi this. I am in this process now. I check back once a week, in person, wi the owner, to see if he's listened to our CD yet. I tell him, if he thinks we suck I want him to tell me we suck, so we can get better. I stopped by this morning, he hadn't listened to it yet, so I told him I'd be by next week. It sucks, but this is how it goes.

the thing about the above post is that there is something else going on...it may have nothing to do with the band, the CD etc..or it may be that the guy just doesn't like the person who dropped of the demo. THEY DO NOT OWE ANYONE AN ANSWER. Maybe the bar is in deep debt and they are about to go under..who knows.

May I suggest to go there on a social visit rather than a band gig promo visit...maybe just sit and talk , ask why he won't give you a shot ? It really is that simple...tell him you don't want to be a pest but before you walk away you thought you would come down and ask....Don't use words like SUCK and such.... Maybe you will get the answer you are looking for !

Those are all the fine points of being a negotiator -

thats the apprach an excellent salesperson might use. Some of us have those skills and some of us... well, we just dont. One can improve and get better, but, some people just have a way of friendly negotiation that can usually get what they want... and some of us just werent born with that gift.

You're right tho, I've gotten gigs just thru sheer persistance and found out later, the club owner never even bothered to listen to the CD. Just looked at our picture and our list of covers. Thats kind of important too. Your music has to be something the owner likes or at least thinks the usual bar patrons will like.

Its tough, doing the booking, there are no easy answers, theres a reason why almost everyone hates doing it :wink:

I was in one band, I did ALL the booking myself, made the promo packages, even recorded and mixed the CD and furnished most of the bands PA, and ran the sound from the stage during the shows! Talk about Little Red Hen syndrome!

Anyway a couple of the other members often bitched about the gigs I got for various reasons, so after a few months, I announced, OK, I'm not booking the band. You guys can try.

Guess how many paying gigs we got after that?

Thats right.

ZERO.

Needless to say, our party soon broke up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what I said is the answer, it is not...it's very difficult booking a band. My comments are to be considered optional...Do what works best...

Sometimes all it takes is being neat, well spoken and very polite...I have seen and worked with countless musicians that do not fit that bill but yet they walk the streets looking for a gig with a band or at a pub...NOT....

Negotiation doesn't actually mean you have to negotiate with the person in front of you to the end of the earth, it just means to recognize what you have in front of you, it may mean to be aware that you may have to modify your approach...


One thing I do know and this is a very old wise statement..and this is what came to mind when reading about the "calling the guy every week and getting nowhere"..


Insanity is doing the same exact thing everyday and expecting different results !


Go Crazy, do something different..Although I did book our bands for years I don't book the band I am in now, our band leader does and he is getting real good at recognizing whats in front of him and knowing when NOT to negotiate anymore. He has been known to flat out say NO, we are not doing that, call me back when you have a better deal for us..and a few have called back !

But he's young and got the right attitude and a good approach, me , I'm just flat out tired of it all !

t

I'm in a mediocre classic rock (and country, motown, 80's) cover band. We've been gigging regularly about once a month at local bars/restaurants for three years now. We don't really have a CD or promo material. What has worked for us is a two minute live youtube clip that has snippets of four or five of our better songs...honestly I don't think a bar/restaurant owner is going to spend any more time than that listening to anything you give them. We have a regular crowd that comes see us...and this is the key to our success. Like someone else mentioned, yes, the classic rock audience is "old" (eg. 40-50) and goes to bed early, but they are also grown ups with jobs who have no problem spending $50 or whatever for a night out. If we got a weekly Wednesday night gig could we consistently count on them coming out? Absolutely not.

Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is bringing an audience is more important than website, CDs, etc. if you are trying to play bars/restaurants. If you're going after private gigs, weddings, events, then that's another story of course.

As a point of reference, here we are at one of our regular gigs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3YHF_oey_g

I'm in a mediocre classic rock (and country, motown, 80's) cover band. We've been gigging regularly about once a month at local bars/restaurants for three years now. We don't really have a CD or promo material. What has worked for us is a two minute live youtube clip that has snippets of four or five of our better songs...honestly I don't think a bar/restaurant owner is going to spend any more time than that listening to anything you give them. We have a regular crowd that comes see us...and this is the key to our success. Like someone else mentioned, yes, the classic rock audience is "old" (eg. 40-50) and goes to bed early, but they are also grown ups with jobs who have no problem spending $50 or whatever for a night out. If we got a weekly Wednesday night gig could we consistently count on them coming out? Absolutely not.

Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is bringing an audience is more important than website, CDs, etc. if you are trying to play bars/restaurants. If you're going after private gigs, weddings, events, then that's another story of course.

As a point of reference, here we are at one of our regular gigs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3YHF_oey_g

I've been in that type of band before and we used to have 8 gigs amonths, every Friday and Saturday. Monthly gigs at the same venues and a following. I left that situation to be able to play what I wanted the way I wanted to play it, and I find it's a lot more difficult to find gigs than when you play the usual Mustang Sally-Brown Eyed Girl repertoire. But, as young folks ( and and increasingly large number of adults ) say nowadays "it is what it is".

I find it's a lot more difficult to find gigs than when you play the usual Mustang Sally-Brown Eyed Girl repertoire. But, as young folks ( and and increasingly large number of adults ) say nowadays "it is what it is".


Our keyboard player has a bumper sticker on his Leslie speaker cabinet
that says "Mustang Sally" with a Red Circle around it and line through it.

If I ever find one of those that says "Brown Eyed Girl" I'm going to stick it
on there under the Mustang Sally sticker!

Consider the reality of trying to get people to come out to a gig at a smoky bar where a loud band plays. Just think about how much entertainment is literally beamed into peoples houses now. You're competing with 500 channels of cable, pay per view, computer gaming and the internet. If you're playing classic rock or old school country, you also have to figure that most of your target audience, is already in bed asleep by the time you hit the stage.

Yep. I've gone on facebook to do a last minute reminder push to get some folks out the night of a show, and I will have 50 friends on facebook chatting and not one at the show. It is tough to compete with being able to listen/watch whatever you want, make your own drinks for a tenth of the price and not have to worry about how you're getting home or to work the next day. Maybe it will come full circle and seeing a live show will be so novel and unheard of that people will want to come out. Until then, I may just spin records (play an ipod or whatever the DJs do these days) with a celebrity cut-out on stage and take people's picture with the cut-out for 5 bucks a pop.

LOL. We of course do Mustang Sally AND Brown Eyed Girl...and a ton of other cheeseball tunes like B-52's, Go-Go's, etc. Personally I have no problem playing whatever it takes to entertain the audience that's in front of me, even if I don't particularly like the song myself. Those tunes do get the ladies up on the tables and out on the floor, and that does kinda make everybody have a good time :)

when I was booking club gigs for our band I used to go to the bar at a slow time, order a beer, start up a conversation and ask for the name of the person who books the bands. Don't ask for the owner or manager as was mentioned above. Find out who the decision maker is. After that I ask about his or her schedule. Once I know that, I would drop by when it was slow and order another beer, ask for so and so and hand over a demo package. Try to nail down an approximate time when you can call back. Never sit around waiting for the phone to ring; they will not call you. when it's time to call back I would either call so and so or drop in again, order a beer and ask for you know who and try and book a date. I always tip generously because I want to make an impression and I want to be remembered. Your server or bartender is not going to help you if you cannot be generous with them. I always encourage band members to tip generousley as well. This is even more true when the band gets free drinks to begin with.
You need to bring in your own crowd. I have a friend who plays in what I consider to be Sacramento's best classic rock band. When he plays locally he call the friends/fans on their email list (which you will need) and practically begs them to come out. Remember, the club's motivation is to sell drinks, not hear a good band. Help them with that and you will have gigs.
They always pack the place and they almost always get asked back.

As someone mentioned already, it's simple economics. If you don't earn for the bar at least double what they are paying you in extra patronage, they're just not going to bother with you. At my band's last gig, our first time in our neighborhood watering hole, we invited our friends, they all showed up (and then some) and the manager was so thrilled he said actually next time he should pay us more.

So promote yourself heavily the first time you play somewhere, or make sure the people there have the time of their dang lives. :wink:

On the flipside of the rival band thing, it's always helpful to cultivate the possibility that any buddies who are in a band already established in one or more venues can put in a good word for you if they can't make a gig one night. One good sub gig and you could find yourself on a regular rotation. Hopefully not displacing your buddies though.

I play about four regular gigs and they ,plus whatever else comes along, give out enough work to ensure that most weekends are pretty full. Two, maybe three gigs in a weekend and then on top of that some bonus weeknight work maybe will come of that

I can see that work drying up, though. The drummer I play with is of the opinion that people in Dublin just don't appreciate live music. People seem to like us well enough when we've played though.

One thing I can confidently say is do not agree to work for free to get your foot in the door, a reduced fee maybe but not free because unless you destroy, the bar will just see you as some mug band who was dumb enough to play for free and be a bit of entertainment for the punters who came. They'll do the same with another band the next week and never call you back.

If you have a successful gig and the club is happy, try to book at least 2 more gigs before you leave....even if it's 6 months down the road.
Hell....ESPECIALLY if it's 6 months down the road.

uhmm..we still play Mustang Sally and Brown Eye'd Girl..! Perhaps not every gig but certainly if it is a request or the moment feels right...

I also have no problem with these songs or any other song that people like to hear..( that we play) that's why we are called a "cover" band ....

I guess if people like what you are playing does it really much matter WHAT you are playing ? The whole point of playing out in a cover band is to have people like what you are doing, stay, spend money..etc..and then you may even get asked back...

We still have fun playing those tunes mentioned above and more...actually M Sally has turned into a groove jam for us, dueling guitars, split solos., even split 4's...seems to work !

t

Yep. I've gone on facebook to do a last minute reminder push to get some folks out the night of a show, and I will have 50 friends on facebook chatting and not one at the show. It is tough to compete with being able to listen/watch whatever you want, make your own drinks for a tenth of the price and not have to worry about how you're getting home or to work the next day. Maybe it will come full circle and seeing a live show will be so novel and unheard of that people will want to come out. Until then, I may just spin records (play an ipod or whatever the DJs do these days) with a celebrity cut-out on stage and take people's picture with the cut-out for 5 bucks a pop.


This one guy I met had a novel idea. He said he had the technology to where we'd do gigs.... live from his home studio and then stream them live on his website. that way nobody would ever have to leave their homes.

I still dont know if even that would work. You wouldnt get paid, and I imagine, anybody bothering to watch, would stay for maybe one song.

Actually I used to play this one club where they did in fact, stream their live concerts on a website right from the stage. Eventually they stopped, the bar manager said it was too much trouble, and my friends that did tune in, finally admitted they only watched for a few minutes.

You really are selling a package to the venue. And what you are selling has to have value to the venue, otherwise, there is no reason for them to buy what you are selling. If the band is your job, then you need to figure out what the venue wants to buy and do that... if the band is something fun that might bring in a couple spare bucks, then have fun.

My last group did about 6 shows a month playing classic country music. The really good part is that was the type of music we were good at AND enjoyed playing. Here's a few selling points I would use to sell that band...

*The band has a rule of no drinking (at least until the show is over). No worries about the band getting drunk and blowing the second half of the show. This was a very sellable point.

*Guitar and bass run direct into the PA (no stage amps) and the drummer played an electronic set. Sound level can be whatever is appropriate to the venue and will always sound good. No rattling the rafters unless that is what the owner wants.

*I would point out that our selection of tunes appealed to older folks and they tend to have money but earlier bedtimes. The offer was always on the table to move the timeframe of the performance up to accomodate this and catch some of that revunue that might otherwise have been missed.

So really, we were capitalizing on a couple of the points where some groups stumble (too loud and/or unprofessional behavior), using this to our advantage and also showing the owner that we were aware of the reason for the whole relationship was to make both parties money.

As has been pointed out in a couple of posts already, the club must make significantly more than they would without you or there is no point in them having you. This is really the only thing that matters to them, all of these other things are issues that matter to us. This should be obvious to everyone but I know it's not.

I've never really been the person who books the band before but that will change soon and I have a question:

What is an accurate way to tell what the club is making on a night you are playing there and how that compares to other nights? I don't really like the idea of taking their word for it. I suppose you could ask to see the bar receipts, if those can be trusted.

I ask because I think in the beginning I may need to accept less money than I would like the band to make until we can prove that we are capable of making money for the clubs. Assuming we do that and get asked back, at some point we would need to re-negotiate. I'd like to know these details so I have a good place to negotiate from.

Bottom line... It's a lot of work! Sounds like you're doing the right thing. Eventually look into to a booking agent. But be careful some will stick to you and break it off. The cool thing about it was there was a contract the club owner/manager had to sign, and you could put unusual demands such as (for myself) was a carton of cigarettes and a bottle of patron... On top of our regular pay... Don't think I bought any cigs for over three years! But smoked two packs a day!

What is an accurate way to tell what the club is making on a night you are playing there and how that compares to other nights? I don't really like the idea of taking their word for it. I suppose you could ask to see the bar receipts, if those can be trusted.


IMHO, when soliciting a club, as a band you don't really have a negotiating position. You will work for the venue when and if they feel like hiring you, based on a price they think will work in their favor on average. And they will want you on a night when they are at less than full capacity. Ask the manager about how many people he might reasonably expect to have on average on the night in question, and how long the crowd will usually stay - and then make sure you beat those averages.

*Guitar and bass run direct into the PA (no stage amps) and the drummer played an electronic set. Sound level can be whatever is appropriate to the venue and will always sound good. No rattling the rafters unless that is what the owner wants.
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I've always been curious about this, I've seen one band do it... they were a hard rock trio, playing stuff like Greenday and Rush.... at a very low volume, in a swanky bar full of lawyers who could talk at normal volumes. the band was about as loud as a boombox.

Whenever I've tried to do it, it sucked... but mostly I think because I didnt have EVERYBODY in the band on board. Especially the drummer.

Did you have to twist anybodys arm to play like that?

Well, I think this would work well around Nashville. I was playing a place on Broadway a few years ago with a buddy and some drunk kept coming up and hollering to "tern 'em drums down!". Yeah, Yeah, buddy. He's already using brushes. Well, we found out this later that apparently this was the owner.....and he wouldn't be having us back. Since these are all pickup bands around town all that actually did was that the "artist" just had to book us under a different name. Drunks can't tell the difference.

I've always been curious about this, I've seen one band do it... they were a hard rock trio, playing stuff like Greenday and Rush.... at a very low volume, in a swanky bar full of lawyers who could talk at normal volumes. the band was about as loud as a boombox.

Whenever I've tried to do it, it sucked... but mostly I think because I didnt have EVERYBODY in the band on board. Especially the drummer.

Did you have to twist anybodys arm to play like that?

It's a bit funny how it all started... I had a nice effects processor, a newly paid for PA and lights, an empty wallet, and a recently blown guitar amp. I was starting a new group and landed a 3 night a week house gig in a very small bar. I figured as long as I didn't have an amp, the bass player didn't need one either. It was his first job so he didn't know any better and agreed. The drummer in that group was a very light player so that worked well. That band grew into a 5 piece with two guitars and a keyboard player but the "no personal amps" thing stuck and worked well.

The next group was a country 3-piece and that is where the electronic drums came in. The drummer had recently left his previous group and they hated his electronic gear because "it didn't look right on stage". His set at the time consisted of an acoustic set with all the drums stuffed absolutely full of pillow batting and he was using them only as triggers. When we practiced, he used his drum brain and an Octopad. His stage gear was just slightly more elaborate. Stage volume was such that from 6 feet away, I could talk to the bass player or drummer at normal talking volume during a song.

Drummers are always the problem... :razz: I found that if you give them the same monitor mix as everyone else at the volume you want the stage to be, they will be forced to play music with the rest of the band and not just bang away however they want. :razz:

IMHO, when soliciting a club, as a band you don't really have a negotiating position. You will work for the venue when and if they feel like hiring you, based on a price they think will work in their favor on average. And they will want you on a night when they are at less than full capacity. Ask the manager about how many people he might reasonably expect to have on average on the night in question, and how long the crowd will usually stay - and then make sure you beat those averages.

I agree that initially you don't have a strong negotiating position, if the band is unproven. I'm talking about once it is established that the band is generating a good profit for the club in a way that other bands or different entertainment options can't. You certainly have a negotiating position then.

I'm just wondering how you can tell what the place is making. Anybody here who's been on that side of the business that can chime in?

Drummers are always the problem... :razz: I found that if you give them the same monitor mix as everyone else at the volume you want the stage to be, they will be forced to play music with the rest of the band and not just bang away however they want. :razz:


Aint that the truth! You can only play as quietly as your drummer will allow you...

hey you arent Mike R, are you? from rmmg?

Record yourself a demo. Yes it's time and money, but then club owners know what you sound like and know that they're not taking a chance on you.

hey you arent Mike R, are you? from rmmg?

Nope... I'm just a nobody:cry:

This one guy I met had a novel idea. He said he had the technology to where we'd do gigs.... live from his home studio and then stream them live on his website. that way nobody would ever have to leave their homes.

I still dont know if even that would work. You wouldnt get paid, and I imagine, anybody bothering to watch, would stay for maybe one song.

Actually I used to play this one club where they did in fact, stream their live concerts on a website right from the stage. Eventually they stopped, the bar manager said it was too much trouble, and my friends that did tune in, finally admitted they only watched for a few minutes.

That was exactly what I thought of after the show I posted about earlier. I am sure there is a way to charge for the legal stream, as I am sure there is a way to get it free, but if someone goes to that trouble to illegally stream your show, it would have to be considered a minor victory.

As for how long they watch, you are definitely right. If a person would perfer watching a show on the computer, they are propably not apt to watch the same band for an hour and a half. I don't think many people listen to entire albums in one sitting (if at all) now. Lot more focus on singles that are basically commercials for a product that isn't there; just a setup for another commercial.

I worked with this kid whose father I knew, and I am about halfway between his age and his dad's. Both great players, and, for the most part, I could find some common ground musically. I asked the son about the words to a song he was listening to and really liked, and he said, "I don't know. I don't normally listen to the lyrics at all."

Record yourself a demo. Yes it's time and money, but then club owners know what you sound like and know that they're not taking a chance on you.


I think if you read above you will see that those having issues have indeed had conversations with owners and dropped off demo packages..they are asking..."then what" ? from getting little or no response or feedback from club owners...

I think if you read above you will see that those having issues have indeed had conversations with owners and dropped of demo packages..they are asking..."then what" ? from getting little or no response or feedback from club owners...

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Try as hard as you can to be just like every other band in your town. That will get you work,, Might not make you happy though.

I just play really well at the last one.

Martin...

Record yourself a demo. Yes it's time and money, but then club owners know what you sound like and know that they're not taking a chance on you.

Sometimes clubs owners around here aren't too bright, We offer a DVD with video of live performances from various clubs in the area. Shots of the band, with happy audience much in evidence, packed dance floors, and with nice clear sound. Video that allows them to see EXACTLY what our shows look AND sound like. Half the time the response is, "Do y'all have a studio demo so we can hear what you sound like?" :confused::confused::confused:

Sometimes clubs owners around here aren't too bright, We offer a DVD with video of live performances from various clubs in the area. Shots of the band, with happy audience much in evidence, packed dance floors, and with nice clear sound. Video that allows them to see EXACTLY what our shows look AND sound like. Half the time the response is, "Do y'all have a studio demo so we can hear what you sound like?" :confused::confused::confused:

Yeah. It can be tough.

The idea of being able to turn everything down to an acceptable level is an interesting one but electronic drums worry me because there's always the risk of them falling victim to Murphy's law. Anything else can happen but as long as there's a tasty drum beat going on, people might not care so much. Also if you play music that's supposed to rock, it needs to be at a volume that will hit you in the chest but not deafen you. I think some people here call it the "sweet spot" of volume. So, anything significantly less than that will just sound quite flat and too polite and it'll be hard to get the energy flowing. This of course is just my opinion and I wouldn't be unwilling to practice the above if it was requested, I just wouldn't be particularly thrilled about it.

I'd also like to get in on the drummer bashing. :lol: Our old drummer was problematic in more ways than one but his worst crime musically was an almost total lack of dynamic awareness. His snare drum sounded like a gun going off or as close as a drum can sound to that. And this was a fact that he was not ashamed of. In fact you might even say he was quite proud of it. Consequently, his drum levels were a pretty constant source of complaint for punters if and when they did complain about anything as in "What's that little drum he bangs?" "The snare?" " Yeah, tell him to shut that f***in' thing up!"

The drummer we have now is a pro who totally gets dynamics (more than anyone else in the band probably) and the sound his improved tremendously. It's a case of drummers vs. stick owners which drummers will win most every time. So yeah, overly loud drummers suck! :razz:

Ask my wife if she minds if I play at the breakfast table.

uhmm..we still play Mustang Sally and Brown Eye'd Girl..! Perhaps not every gig but certainly if it is a request or the moment feels right...

I also have no problem with these songs or any other song that people like to hear..( that we play) that's why we are called a "cover" band ....

I guess if people like what you are playing does it really much matter WHAT you are playing ? The whole point of playing out in a cover band is to have people like what you are doing, stay, spend money..etc..and then you may even get asked back...

We still have fun playing those tunes mentioned above and more...actually M Sally has turned into a groove jam for us, dueling guitars, split solos., even split 4's...seems to work !

t

+1.

It is what you (we as musicians and entertainers) make of it. When you make it fun, all the better.

The only thing worse than complaining about a gig, is not having a gig to complain about.

Cheers.

I'm just wondering how you can tell what the place is making. Anybody here who's been on that side of the business that can chime in?

I used to tend bar, and I am often conscious of the "how much is the bar making" benchmark. A couple of things you can do. Count the customers and gauge how much they are drinking...one beer, two beers, etc. Watch how busy the bartender is and estimate how many drinks he is serving per minute, hour, etc. Then just multiply by the going rate per drink. This will get you in the ballpark. You could also just look around the room and say, ok there's thirty people here, it's been that way for a couple of hours, they each probably spent twenty bucks, and so forth.

....Sometimes clubs owners around here aren't too bright....

And they are anything but trustworthy.
Believe nothing they say.

They have one agenda: pump business up enough so they can sell it. They will do anything to achieve that goal.
It has been my experience that it is never beneath a club owner to lie to a musician about money.

They have all lived rough lives and have been scammed time and time again. Making some of it back on a naive musician (who knows even less about running a business than they do) is how they entertain themselves.

They are looking at you as somebody they can USE to make money, or not.
If you can pander to their neurosis, you have a chance of being hired.

Of course you will have to produce when they ring out that til at the end of the night.
If they aren't making money, and LOTS of it, you won't be asked back.

IF you do get hired, pay cash for your food and drinks. Everybody in the band has to be on board for this to really work its magic.
Respectfully decline any offer to run a tab. They understand and (in a perverted way) respect cash.
Cash transactions are more personal. You can make small talk while doling out greenbacks that you can't make otherwise. "How we doin' tonight? Are we keeping the red ink away?"

Drink the local brew, LOVE IT and, don't forget to tip.

1) What is an accurate way to tell what the club is making on a night you are playing there and how that compares to other nights?

2) I don't really like the idea of taking their word for it.

3) I suppose you could ask to see the bar receipts, if those can be trusted.


1) There isn't one. What a club brings in isn't anything they have to share with you or anybody else except the IRS.
It is privileged information.
One rule-of-thumb is they need to bring in 4 times as much as they pay the band to pay all their overhead.

The reality of the situation is this: You may have had an excellent Saturday night, but they are open 7 days a week and those expenses for Liability Insurance, utilities, property taxes, their latest divorce, and payroll just keep on coming. Last night sucked and tomorrow night probably won't be very good either. They know this, but they will never admit it.

2) EXCELLENT!! Never take their word for it.

3) You will never see those receipts without a court order. Back to the privileged information thing.

1)
You will never see those receipts without a court order.

So ... let me see if I'm following along ... you're saying the band should figure into their fee the cost of of obtaining a court order to get the club to disclose their receipts? :wink:

So ... let me see if I'm following along ... you're saying the band should figure into their fee the cost of of obtaining a court order to get the club to disclose their receipts? :wink:

It wouldn't hurt. :)