How big is worship in church life 2

Hi, Just a note to say thanks to those who replied back before the thread got shut down, I guess this must have got a bit Pink Floyd?

Do any of you talk more regards worship stuff elsewhere?

<Hey, you, Administrator - leave them post alone> :mrgreen:

You know that they're just gonna shut it down again. This question is already on the borderline of theology discussion ("how important is worship to the modern church", really?). Plus you're probably just pissing them off by posting it again.

<Hey, you, Administrator - leave them post alone> :mrgreen:

You know that they're just gonna shut it down again. This question is already on the borderline of theology discussion ("how important is worship to the modern church", really?). Plus you're probably just pissing them off by posting it again.

And annoying others.

The rules are very, very clear:

Worship Service Players Religious service players discussion forum. Open to all religions. No religious theology discussion, just guitar & playing performance discussion.

Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult! No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.

I for one posted that this forum be closed down because it constantly attracts posts about religious theology.

I think this type of recurring thread might trigger that thought again in Paul's mind. I hope so and he actions it this time.

:neutral: Peter

I for one posted that this forum be closed down because it constantly attracts posts about religious theology.

I think this type of recurring thread might trigger that thought again in Paul's mind. I hope so and he actions it this time.

:neutral: Peter

+1

I for one posted that this forum be closed down because it constantly attracts posts about religious theology.

I think this type of recurring thread might trigger that thought again in Paul's mind. I hope so and he actions it this time.


-1.

And I -1 that as a skeptic who constantly sees evangelical christians crossing the line in the WSP forum. It doesn't bother me.

The reason why political discussion is banned is because it leads to heated, endless arguments. I don't see a similar thing happening in the WSP subforum with religious threads, because it's a mono-culture.

I would hate to see this section of the forums shut down, as some good discussion happens here... it's too bad that a few people with poor self-control can't seem to follow the rules. If the OP is smart, he'll delete this thread & quit "poking the bear with a stick." There are other guitar forums out there that will allow theological discussion:

http://praiseandworshipforum.com/forum/index.php

http://gpawf4christ.com/forums/

That said, if some are so irritated by this section of the forum in general, why post in it? Why not just avoid it?

The reason why political discussion is banned is because it leads to heated, endless arguments. I don't see a similar thing happening in the WSP subforum with religious threads, because it's a mono-culture.


Sorry, don't agree. Not a mono-culture at all.

Have never understood a so-called "Worship Service" subject forum. The idea that there should be a forum dedicated to playing issues in specifically a religious setting makes as much sense to me as having a "Playing in a Bar" forum, and a "Playing Outdoors" forum, and a "Playing at a Coffeehouse" forum.

How 'bout a "Playing at a Denny's" forum?

All so-called P&W guitar forums I've seen are just a thinly veiled platform to discuss a particular religion with a wink and a nod.

Paul opened up a few months ago (the last time this came up) that he was considering eliminating this particular group. And I, intentionally, stayed out of the fray at that time.

I guess now I'm IBTL. :neutral:

Look...this is just part of the deal. Don't close out this whole forum of worship players just because of the religious overtones. Let's just go on a case-by-case basis. No need to punish the innocent.

(Not a worship player anymore)

I would hate to see this section of the forums shut down, as some good discussion happens here... it's too bad that a few people with poor self-control can't seem to follow the rules. If the OP is smart, he'll delete this thread & quit "poking the bear with a stick." There are other guitar forums out there that will allow theological discussion:

http://praiseandworshipforum.com/forum/index.php

http://gpawf4christ.com/forums/

That said, if some are so irritated by this section of the forum in general, why post in it? Why not just avoid it?

Agreed [and sometimes guilty].

Thanks for those links.

Peace, Mike.

this sub-forum is open to all types of religion not just christianity. not wanting to jump on the bandwagon but keep it to playing at worship and leave the theological out of it. i personally think this sub forum is needed a playing at a church is completley different to any over sort of gig.

Be a little more respectful (To the OP)

playing at a church is completley different to any over sort of gig.




Granted ... maybe.

But so is playing at a [fill in the blank] different to any (other) sort of gig.

this sub-forum is open to all types of religion not just christianity.

It's open to all, but I haven't seen any non-christian posts. Rather, I see posts with subject lines like "Hey, Christians..."

It's open to all, but I haven't seen any non-christian posts. Rather, I see posts with subject lines like "Hey, Christians..."

uh... yeah...

Again, I'm pro-WSP. There must be a reason why so many music forums have them. True, some threads seem like they could be more general: "suggest a delay", or a thread that raises asks how to achieve the tone or effect on a song that just happens to be a worship song (how is that different from trying to sound like How Soon Is Now?).

Woah, I don't think there's any need to delete it! In fact, I think there is need to NOT delete it. Look around. Half of these posts are non-theological, yet couldn't accurately be posted anywhere else!

^^^^^^ According to the TDPRI rules shouldn't all the posts be non-theological ?

^^^^^^ According to the TDPRI rules shouldn't all the posts be non-theological ?

ALL are non theological, but HALF wouldn't belong anywhere else. My bad for not clarifying!

So we all agree that all good Christians should play tele's????

;-)

I've never understood the idea that there should be a worship guitar players area on TDPRI, and that no theological discussion should happen.

That's like getting a bunch of alcoholics together and telling them not to talk about drinking.

I am a worship player, and a Christian and I post on this forum, and I do my best to follow the rules. But it is rather difficult at times and frankly, if the administrators want to continue with the rule about no theological discussion, and don't want to have to police the forum to enforce it, then they should shut it down. They won't be hurting anyone's feelings. The fact that it's stayed up this long, with this set of rules is frankly amazing and I for one thank the admins. for their patience and understanding.

As someone already said, there are other places we can go, where inevitable theological discussion won't be such a bother to other groups.

How big is worship in Church Life?

Why does that have to be theological. Simple answer, it is big. What is a religion, any religion, with no worship? Note that worship, in any religion, is not limited to music.

The problem presents itself when the discussion shifts from how big it is, and toward how big it should be.

You can see what I mean about the inevitability of the problem. How important the actual music itself is to worship. How important worship as a whole is to church. Is there church at all without worship? Are the giant, produced rock show worship services really worship? Shouldn't music be only a small part of worship? etc. etc. etc...

These are all valid questions for a worship guitar player. And all are out of bounds on this forum. Or they're supposed to be anyway.

Hi, wow, Im on the other side of the pond so was asleep when all this went down, I've read through the posts now and would like to say that although I am not a worship player and I do not attend a church etc, I think I have managed to annoy everyone in a single post; sorry about that.

Regards the 1st post - I did originally have a genuine question in my head which came from the many posts Ive read in this section but perhaps the less said about that the better.

Regards the 2nd post - perhaps my sense of humour is lost in translation a bit or perhaps I have a personality flaw (more likely), but I was just having a giggle regards the Pink Floyd lyrics so I apologise to the Admins, its probably a thankless task. Subsequently Ive been informed that I can send multi-messages from a kind user so I should have done that to send out thanks. - You got me, my bad.

Regards future posts - I can see theres three camps here, the christians, the non-christians and the Admins in the middle.

I wouldnt want to be responsible for my post upsetting the non-christian group and subsequently for this section being deleted as personally I dont think its nesessary, there is a very interesting slice of musical life going on here that should be accessable to all; to delete it would be very sad, sorry Nc's.

I also dont want to cheese off the christian group either and bring them under scrutiny as they seem to really enjoy their time here, although I think I might be too late for that. Didnt mean to raise your profile to the Admins attention, sorry C's.

Admins, to preserve the peace, Im going to leave this open for 24hrs, as I suspect most of you are asleep right now, then I will delete the post (if I can work out how to do it), but in the mean time feel free to delete N3tm if it helps in your judgement to bring peace.

Sorry, don't agree. Not a mono-culture at all.

Have never understood a so-called "Worship Service" subject forum. The idea that there should be a forum dedicated to playing issues in specifically a religious setting makes as much sense to me as having a "Playing in a Bar" forum, and a "Playing Outdoors" forum, and a "Playing at a Coffeehouse" forum.

How 'bout a "Playing at a Denny's" forum?
:neutral:I would contend that they are different, when you are playing a bar, oudoors park, coffeehouse, etc, the focus is typically straight up entertainment/performace, in a worship setting, the focus is typically different.

It's open to all, but I haven't seen any non-christian posts. Rather, I see posts with subject lines like "Hey, Christians..."
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what goes on in worship services for other world religions, but my impression is that most of them don't use electric guitars, hence the concentration of Christians. I may be showing my ignorance, but that is my theory. I agree that we shouldn't be discussion theology, etc. But I do see value in thread like the one asking about song selection for a particular service or how to deal with gear situations that come up between leadership and players.

All so-called P&W guitar forums I've seen are just a thinly veiled platform to discuss a particular religion with a wink and a nod. :neutral:

-1 ~ I kinda think this, too. Couldn't really care less since I always feel like if you don't want to join the thread, don't click on the link!

So we all agree that all good Christians should play tele's????

;-)


Not exactly......I've been telling people for years that Jesus plays a Strat. :smile:

But I'm saving $$$ for a Tele anyway.....:grin:

The reason this section of the forum was created was because people got tired of seeing church musicians posting in their non-church oriented threads, so they gave us a section to post in especially for Church worship/religious musicians. Only thing was, you can't talk about God.

So if you see it for what it is, just getting us out of the way with our "god" references, and not a place to talk theology, it's easy. I've been warned in this section about posting things that crossed the line and this is (in my own words) the explanation I got from the Moderator.

Nothing to be offended about, secular people don't want to read about a bunch of church musicians. We just have to keep it 'clean', so to speak and not feel like we're amongst out own, even though we are, just with moderators, and only talk about the technical aspects of our playing.

A good forum for Christian musicians that has a large selection of areas including technical, theological and many, many others to choose from is Christianguitar.org.

Check it out if you like.

Stooty

Again, I'm pro-WSP. There must be a reason why so many music forums have them. True, some threads seem like they could be more general: "suggest a delay", or a thread that raises asks how to achieve the tone or effect on a song that just happens to be a worship song (how is that different from trying to sound like How Soon Is Now?).

The WSP sub-sections are in all forums because if it isn't...the topics will be brought up in the main forums where there are even more non-WSP types just waiting to grind their axe and sharpen the chip on their shoulder due to their negative views and experiences.

If you want more forum chaos then by all means...shut down the WSP.
I mean, you can't honestly ban everyone without kicking yourself in the nuts.

My issue with the P&W sub-forum has always been the fact that you have non-P&W people coming in and throwing rocks at the hornets nest...then everyone suffers when tempers flare.

I just don't get it.

If you're in school and you know that a group that doesn't agree with your personal point of view hangs out in a particular hallway, why are you going to intentionally walk down that hallway and intentionally say things that oppose that group's viewpoint?
To me, that's looking for...and starting a fight. If you get your tail whupped...you deserve it.

And yet, when it happens here...the mods consistently take the rabble-rouser's side and threaten to shut down the sub-forum. Its akin to threatening to throw a rape victim in jail for being raped...

The WSP sub-sections are in all forums because if it isn't...the topics will be brought up in the main forums where there are even more non-WSP types just waiting to grind their axe and sharpen the chip on their shoulder due to their negative views and experiences.

If you want more forum chaos then by all means...shut down the WSP.
I mean, you can't honestly ban everyone without kicking yourself in the nuts.

My issue with the P&W sub-forum has always been the fact that you have non-P&W people coming in and throwing rocks at the hornets nest...then everyone suffers when tempers flare.

I just don't get it.

If you're in school and you know that a group that doesn't agree with your personal point of view hangs out in a particular hallway, why are you going to intentionally walk down that hallway and intentionally say things that oppose that group's viewpoint?
To me, that's looking for...and starting a fight. If you get your tail whupped...you deserve it.

And yet, when it happens here...the mods consistently take the rabble-rouser's side and threaten to shut down the sub-forum. Its akin to threatening to throw a rape victim in jail for being raped...

I have to strongly disagree with you on just about every point you make.

I come to the TDP for advice, discussion, amusement, friendship (have some great virtual friends and some great real friends I've met through the TDP) and I also play in a church.

When I log on I use the "New Posts" facility and I'm naturally attracted to those posts which have a large number of hits. Because I play in a church there may be something for me but in the main the more popular posts [in this forum] have degenerated into religious theology, several "Praise the Lords", a few quoted Psalms and alot of Amens.

This type of thread simply breaks the rules. Let me remind you once again:

Worship Service Players. Religious service players discussion forum. Open to all religions. No religious theology discussion, just guitar & playing performance discussion.

I've cut and paste it from the top of the thread!!

I don't come here to throw rocks (religious overtones! :roll:) and just because I strongly disapprove of this forum does NOT make me a non-christian.

My politics, my religion and my sexuality (I suspect that comment will start a lot of speculation. :lol:) is my business and holds no place on the TDPRI. The only thing you need worry about me is whether I prefer 10s or 11s.

I did once test in this forum if I could start a debate about musical tastes in worship within Afganistan but I was warned not to go there. So it looks as though you Christians have the place all to yourself.

Let me remind you one more time:

Worship Service Players. Religious service players discussion forum. Open to all religions. No religious theology discussion, just guitar & playing performance discussion.

Take the religious theology offline or go somewhere else. This forum is great because it has those strict rules, so long may it continue: politics, sex and religion free.

:neutral: Peter

Sorry, don't agree. Not a mono-culture at all.

Have never understood a so-called "Worship Service" subject forum. The idea that there should be a forum dedicated to playing issues in specifically a religious setting makes as much sense to me as having a "Playing in a Bar" forum, and a "Playing Outdoors" forum, and a "Playing at a Coffeehouse" forum.

How 'bout a "Playing at a Denny's" forum?

All so-called P&W guitar forums I've seen are just a thinly veiled platform to discuss a particular religion with a wink and a nod.

Paul opened up a few months ago (the last time this came up) that he was considering eliminating this particular group. And I, intentionally, stayed out of the fray at that time.

I guess now I'm IBTL. :neutral:

Umm...I'll guess I'll suggest the obvious - the reason this forum exists is because there's a ton of Christian guitarists out there who play P&W. And folks like that are a big market for gear makers, advertisers, etc. Just think of how many guitarists buy a certain pedal because some guy from Hillsong United has the same pedal. That translates to this forum as well - TDPRI cannot just ignore how many people come to this site that are "Worship Service" guitarists. If they did, they'd lose market share to the P&W forum, etc.

The fact that you said "Christian guitarist", rather than something else, might be one of the issues?

Hi Admins, I tried to delete the thread but dont think its possible for me as my Edit button has gone from the original post. Had a look in FAQ there doesnt seem to be any other way for me to do it so you will have to delete it at your end.

For one, rule breaking doesn't show good character, no matter how you put it. Especially in a free country where religious groups don't have to hide in order to meet together.

There are other, more effective ways to show your fervency than on tdpri.

Second, I get real tired of posting on this sub forum just to have some young p&w guitarist tell me I shouldnt try to play lead in a church band, because "that's not what it's all about.". And I am sure they speak from their own vast experience, especially when they assume I haven't been on the team since I was 13 (15 years ago.). I don't post here to be taught worship lessons. Trust me, there are people in my life that I trust and have paid the price to speak into my life. They teach me. This sub forum does go wrong when people miss the purpose of it. Let's talk guitar gear and techniques and keep it light hearted. That would draw people to a "certain religion" more than preaching on a sub forum.

It would be wise to stick to the topic of the op. If we follow the rules, then we all could get some valuable info. And playing in church is different than other gigs because it isn't a gig so to speak. Most churches, not all but most, don't want amps on stage. So gear selection is different and to talk with other worship service players is beneficial. Worship is big in a service, and in my opinion, right where it needs to be. If there is too much focus on it, that is the senior leaderships call, and therefore they are the ones who will be "held responsible" if it is wrong! Just my opinion....

But follow the rules, stick to the topic, and all should be fine.

A certain book says that it is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!

I'm constantly amazed how many NON-Worship Service Players come here and complain about this part of the forum. Mind boggling. :confused:

I don't go to the Strip-club Service Players and complain about its existence. I don't even go to the amp modelling lovers section of most forums amp complain. Are you people that pathetically bored you have to explore topics you have NO interest in?

If you don't like it - Shut UP and get out. :shock Let us do our thing.

I don't go to the Strip-club Service Players and complain about its existence.

Link, please!

Because I play in a church there may be something for me but in the main the more popular posts [in this forum] have degenerated into religious theology, several "Praise the Lords", a few quoted Psalms and alot of Amens.

Not being arrogant, but can you point out some of these threads to me? I've tried to quickly skim the more popular threads on the first page of this forum and I am not really see a whole lot of this.

I'm constantly amazed how many NON-Worship Service Players come here and complain about this part of the forum. Mind boggling. :confused:

I don't go to the Strip-club Service Players and complain about its existence. I don't even go to the amp modelling lovers section of most forums amp complain. Are you people that pathetically bored you have to explore topics you have NO interest in?

If you don't like it - Shut UP and get out. :shock Let us do our thing.

So I play in a church but I'm not welcome here and I'm branded a NON-Worship player? I thought Christianity - and indeed other religions - were about compassion, kindness, understanding and love. Not much of that in your reply.

If you don't like it - Shut UP and get out. :shock Let us do our thing.

Wow! So if doing your thing is constantly breaking the rules of this forum we shuld ignore it? The "holier than thou" attitude often found here is something the rule abiding members should just ignore? No fella. I'm as entitled to make a contribution here as the next guy. I'm interested in the challenges associated with playing in a church/worship environment; simple as that. I don't build amps but I'm entitled to post and comment in the Shock Brother's DIY Amps.

Not being arrogant, but can you point out some of these threads to me? I've tried to quickly skim the more popular threads on the first page of this forum and I am not really see a whole lot of this.

No arrogance read into your post at all. What do you think happens with the posts that break the rules.

That's why you can't find 'em.

:neutral: Peter

Link, please!

Ah, someone with a sense of humour!

:lol: Peter

No arrogance read into your post at all. What do you think happens with the posts that break the rules.

That's why you can't find 'em.

:neutral: Peter

I think that I visit the WSP forum fairly frequently and I really don't see what you are implying is rampant. Are there threads that cross the line, yes, abosolutely. But to read your post, I get the feeling that you are saying all the popular threads here are nothing more than an internet southern baptist tent meeting.

A certain book says that it is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
Actually, I think that was Abraham Lincoln, although I have an idea where he took his inspiration from. :wink:

I think that I visit the WSP forum fairly frequently and I really don't see what you are implying is rampant. Are there threads that cross the line, yes, abosolutely. But to read your post, I get the feeling that you are saying all the popular threads here are nothing more than an internet southern baptist tent meeting.

Without the potlucks!!

Actually, I think that was Abraham Lincoln, although I have an idea where he took his inspiration from. :wink:

Look at me, I'm opening my mouth and removing the doubt! I thought I found it in my certain translation of my certain book..... I'm gonna go look now!

Look at me, I'm opening my mouth and removing the doubt! I thought I found it in my certain translation of my certain book..... I'm gonna go look now!

Nope, definitely Abe Lincoln. But good reading, nonetheless!

Actually, I think that was Abraham Lincoln, although I have an idea where he took his inspiration from. :wink:

I'm reminded of my favourite Abraham Lincoln quote: "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet."

I'm reminded of my favourite Abraham Lincoln quote: "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet."

"Always cite your sources correctly"
-George Washington

I am very glad to be the sacrifice to get this thread back on the light hearted side! And I will admit my nerdy side, I actually do own and have read a book of quotes and the speaker's sourcebook! It does sound like a biblical proverb, though....

My favorite proverb, and it will probably never be confused with a biblical proverb, is "he who laughs last, thinks slowest!"

I am fairly certain that it wasn't George Washington, though....

It was. The Internet told me.

Ha! Reminds me of when my late father first got a computer and Internet. He knew it all....

With fathers day closing in, man I miss him.

I learned to argue on the Internet. How did people manage before?

If someone is offended by Christians discussing worship (which happens to be the part of the service where the guitar players play guitars), then why do they read the worship section of the TDPRI? I'm sorry to have to point this out, but this ploy is a transparent attempt to bully the Christians off the site.

As a result of this behavior, I am officially offended that the offendees are offended by non-offensive threads. People who deliberately offend themselves by repeatedly reading threads they know in advance will be offensive to their own sensibilities about how guitar message boards should be run, should be locked out of said non-offensive threads and ignored by the administrators going forward.

With all those uses of forms of the word "offend" I'm still trying to find out if you post was supposed to be serious or not...

PeterUK please read my post again. Slowly this time.

If you are a Worship Service Player or even have an interest in this then you are very welcome here. All helpful opinions are worth listening too.


If this part of the telecaster forum disappears then I will too! There's other forums that I find more helpful when it comes to gear and theory. But the Church players part of this forum is always interesting and passionate.

I learned to argue on the Internet. How did people manage before?

Law school

Perhaps in order to diffuse the problem, the thread should be titled "How important is music in a worship service?"

Answer: big enough to start a tdp civil war discussing it.

OP here - Im back since my weekend away and noticed that the Admins havent deleted the thread:?:
I guess its here to stay and like Bray83 says "rule breaking doesn't show good character, no matter how you put it", so I guess it will stand as a good testimony against me and all others who think they can take a cheap shot and get away with it! :oops: Regards the mini civil war, well, as Bono says, "you plant a demon seed, you raise a flower of fire" - this also seems to be true (and an instant pop quiz for anybody who can name that song).

Well, nothing I can do about it now so I guess the thread is here to stay.

Bullet the Blue Sky

Sorry, N3tele! No harm intended! :)

No worries bray83 your right :-)
Bullet the Blue Sky = <NICE> £100.00 to you.

I have to strongly disagree with you on just about every point you make.

I come to the TDP for advice, discussion, amusement, friendship (have some great virtual friends and some great real friends I've met through the TDP) and I also play in a church.

When I log on I use the "New Posts" facility and I'm naturally attracted to those posts which have a large number of hits. Because I play in a church there may be something for me but in the main the more popular posts [in this forum] have degenerated into religious theology, several "Praise the Lords", a few quoted Psalms and alot of Amens.

This type of thread simply breaks the rules. Let me remind you once again:



I've cut and paste it from the top of the thread!!

I don't come here to throw rocks (religious overtones! :roll:) and just because I strongly disapprove of this forum does NOT make me a non-christian.

My politics, my religion and my sexuality (I suspect that comment will start a lot of speculation. :lol:) is my business and holds no place on the TDPRI. The only thing you need worry about me is whether I prefer 10s or 11s.

I did once test in this forum if I could start a debate about musical tastes in worship within Afganistan but I was warned not to go there. So it looks as though you Christians have the place all to yourself.

Let me remind you one more time:



Take the religious theology offline or go somewhere else. This forum is great because it has those strict rules, so long may it continue: politics, sex and religion free.

:neutral: Peter


So.....are you one of those people that love 10's.....or are you with the 11's????? :mrgreen::razz:

The fact that you said "Christian guitarist", rather than something else, might be one of the issues?

What other kinds of guitarists do you EVER see?!?
I mean come on...

Muslim worship guitarist???
Jewish worship guitarist???
*Insert alternative religion here* worship guitarist???

Lets be realistic...the majority of "Worship Guitarists" are Christian. :roll:
Lol, ignoring reality just to be neutral is pure ignorance at it's politically correct best.

I'm constantly amazed how many NON-Worship Service Players come here and complain about this part of the forum. Mind boggling. :confused:

I don't go to the Strip-club Service Players and complain about its existence. I don't even go to the amp modelling lovers section of most forums amp complain. Are you people that pathetically bored you have to explore topics you have NO interest in?

If you don't like it - Shut UP and get out. :shock Let us do our thing.

If someone is offended by Christians discussing worship (which happens to be the part of the service where the guitar players play guitars), then why do they read the worship section of the TDPRI? I'm sorry to have to point this out, but this ploy is a transparent attempt to bully the Christians off the site.

People who deliberately offend themselves by repeatedly reading threads they know in advance will be offensive to their own sensibilities about how guitar message boards should be run, should be locked out of said non-offensive threads and ignored by the administrators going forward.

EXACTLY MY POINT from the start. The only people complaining are those that don't believe. Don't come to our parade to throw eggs and then expect us "Christians" to just sit and take it. God had warriors too.
Not all of us are "Sit and take it" sheep. Some of us will stand up and do what is necessary.

Lets be realistic...the majority of "Worship Guitarists" are Christian. :roll:
Lol, ignoring reality just to be neutral is pure ignorance at it's politically correct best.

That still doesn't give us license to ignore the rules, no matter if we like them or think they're practical or not. Even if we did call it a Christian guitar players forum, I'd still be in favor of limiting what can be discussed simply in the interest of decorum. Just because "we are all Christains" doesn't mean we all agree, especially in areas of theology. The easy way to keep things from turning ugly is just to avoid discussing the specifics of ANY religion, right?

Speaking about reality, the reality is that with a few mouse clicks, this could all go away, which I DO NOT want to see happen.

That still doesn't give us license to ignore the rules, no matter if we like them or think they're practical or not. Even if we did call it a Christian guitar players forum, I'd still be in favor of limiting what can be discussed simply in the interest of decorum. Just because "we are all Christains" doesn't mean we all agree, especially in areas of theology. The easy way to keep things from turning ugly is just to avoid discussing the specifics of ANY religion, right?


I guess that would work, no religion discussion must mean no fighting (over religion). though it's hard to talk about worship without referencing the source behind it.


Speaking about reality, the reality is that with a few mouse clicks, this could all go away, which I DO NOT want to see happen.

Understood.
I agree with you, I don't want to see this forum leave either...
But part of me just can't stand idly by and not call out what I see as wrong.
EDIT: My opinion completely...and we all have opinions. Mine is no better than yours or anyone's.

Pick your fights wisely. Some just aren't worth it in the big picture. Most of the time more harm is accomplished. Very few times, and I mean FEW, did I ever argue with someone and the other person stop and say, "you know, you're right!".

Remember, we do not battle with flesh and blood, but.......(reference>Ephesians 6:12)

Remember, we do not battle with flesh and blood, but.......

with posts. :(

Yep... A lot easier to be mad at someone when you're not face to face.

Kinda like road rage.....

What other kinds of guitarists do you EVER see?!?
I mean come on...

Muslim worship guitarist???
Jewish worship guitarist???
*Insert alternative religion here* worship guitarist???

Lets be realistic...the majority of "Worship Guitarists" are Christian. :roll:
Lol, ignoring reality just to be neutral is pure ignorance at it's politically correct best.

I'm sure we would all be excited to welcome Yusuf Islam to the forum. I've read the Quran (more correctly, an English translation - the Quran is only properly read in the original Arabic) and it seems clear that playing of musical instruments is forbidden. Still there are music traditions within the Muslim world that do use some instruments buts its the minority. The Saz is a Turkish instrument and I believe the guitar is of its lineage.

Jews in this country make up less than 2% of the population in this country I believe so you don't run into them a lot and most of the Jews I know are 'secular' so that lowers the numbers further. I've played with a number of fine Jewish musicians in the DFW area for festivals - religious and otherwise. I don't know him but one of my favorites is Craig Taubman - check out www.craignco.com - beautiful stuff!

Since Christians make the majority of the worshipping population and since other religious traditions do not have the same background with the guitar, it should not be surprising that the majority of posts are from Christian worship traditions. That's not PC or neutral or anything else but statistics.

Pick your fights wisely. Some just aren't worth it in the big picture. Most of the time more harm is accomplished. Very few times, and I mean FEW, did I ever argue with someone and the other person stop and say, "you know, you're right!".

Remember, we do not battle with flesh and blood, but.......(reference>Ephesians 6:12)

Well, this is one time that I'm saying it.
"you know, you're right!"
It's not worth it. In the end, nothing gets accomplished except hurt feelings and raised tempers.
And that's not the reason we are here.

Handshake/Hug?

Handshake/Hug?

Both. Now let's all go repent.

Both. Now let's all go repent.

Awesome!
:grin:

In response to the OP...

I believe that the "worship" part of the service, the music and the style of singing, clapping, etc., has become the main thing that draws people to a particular church. So to answer the question--- very, very big. The biggest thing in fact.

mcgannahan, thanks. Wow thats a massive confirmation along the lines of what I was thinking from the start. Tell you what, as the post hasnt been shut down, and peace is flowing again, Im gonna draw a conclusion (respect to admins etc) and see what you think :-

So P&Wers, potentially the 'substance' of Worship Services could actually be the Telecaster, the Deluxe Reverb, the 808 and you?

If it is as mcgannahan says then what does that mean? How would that compare to a P+W service say 1000 or 2000 years ago without electricity? - Was the draw back then perhaps a custom partPreTele001 or a Les'Paul' <joke> - or something else? So whats been added and whats been lost to arrive here.

I guess any reply to that muse may invoke a break of the rules etc so feel free not to answer, perhaps the question is enough.

(Admins - hope thats cool this is my interest re P+W)

So P&Wers, potentially the 'substance' of Worship Services could actually be the Telecaster, the Deluxe Reverb, the 808 and yo

(Admins - hope thats cool this is my interest re P+W)



I have a different philosophy. Telecaster, Pro Junior, and 9's. but would accept Les Paul, HT20, and 8's. No pedals.

I guess any reply to that muse may invoke a break of the rules etc so feel free not to answer,

Bingo. I could answer with what I believe in what I feel is a "safe" way, but I won't, because my post may cause someone to disagree with me and boom, there goes the neighborhood...

How would that compare to a P+W service say 1000 or 2000 years ago?

Well, amps were unholy, so I think they would run their lutes into a Line 6 into the PA and be done with it...

So whats been added and whats been lost to arrive here.

Well, it ultimately comes down to church today being perceived as a place to meet our personal "felt needs" as opposed to a place wherein exists a common confession and common fellowship. One of our felt needs is to be moved my music in the way we want to be moved by it. It has created a situation that is totally subjective and where personal tastes rule.

Historically, within Christendom there has been a general divide over what elements should properly and appropriately consitute corporate worship. None of the following is theological speculation, I am simply providing some history to better understand the present situation...

Some Christians believe that only those things explicitly commanded in the New Testament should take place in corporate worship, namely, corporate singing, the preaching of the word, prayer, communion and baptism. This belief is commonly called the "Regulative Principle of Worship" and is held by many Reformed churches and was a hallmark of Puritanism.

Others believe anything whatsoever can take place as long as it doesn't go against scripture-- thus, electric guitars, drums, drama teams, messages on general themes like "How to Manage Money Responsibly", basically anything is allowed as long as it isn't explicitly forbidden.

Again, nothing to be debated about any of that, it's just historical fact. Now personally I lean towards the latter although I admit I have a hard time playing guitar in church, and no longer play in our worship band. Here's why-- when I play guitar I have an instinctive desire to entertain people. I can't get rid of it. This desire conflicts with what I believe should be the real reason for my guitar playing, which is simply to provide a context for the congregation to sing. I believe singing is the main purpose of this element of corporate worship, not entertainment. I am not citing any theological basis for this-- this is my opinion.

Thanks for the updates. I was speaking to my sister-in-law who was musical director at London Bible College some years ago and she said that Singing (extended to include music) is just endemic of a worshiping people. So is just something instilled within people that they just do.

She also said that a second goal behind P+W is to get people to sing or say words that describe 'Big Gs' attributes, and therefore, act as a reminder/reset-switch in the minds of the P+Wers, to keep them in right perspective, because they need it, else they drift into a distorted view and could become very naughty, like Fonzie.

So if I understand this right theres a need to sing and when expressed as singing of the right words leads to -> happy days <Heyyyyy>. But in real life the 2nd part of what she said is starting to go round the streets+houses leading to unhappy P+Wers, which is what I think I see a bit of in other threads. Starting to make sense.
(As an outsider Im thinking that P+W itself or the people running it need a general reboot).

Anyway its a pity you stopped playing mcgannahan, never know though, perhaps you were born to be an entertainer?

3 words: PRAISE THE LORD!

I think is is a ridicules to ask a Christian to squelch their christianity. I find the "worship sevice players" subject rules unreasonable. Lets start a thread about Tele players but don't let them mention what amp they use because it could cause tention.

I think is is a ridicules to ask a Christian to squelch their christianity. I find the "worship sevice players" subject rules unreasonable. Lets start a thread about Tele players but don't let them mention what amp they use because it could cause tention.

C'mon. Unfair comparison. Certian topics tend to lead to arguments, like politics, so they are not permitted here. Religion is another one of those topics. If theist musicians need to bring up religion in this subforum, they should be aware of that.

I find the "worship sevice players" subject rules unreasonable. L

So ignore this subforum. It's very simple TDPRI owns the site, they make the rules. If they want to make it a requirement that everyone has to end each post with Bop bop a do wop, ba-ding bang boom, guess what, they can. Why, because it's their forum. Please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

OK, will someone who ownes this public forum please take me off?

Really?!

No one told me I had to tone down my religion. Besides, this isn't the place. This is a guitar forum. The topic is music in a worship service.

Speaking of topic, i haven't shared my thoughts on how big music is in a service. I have always viewed the musical part of the worship experience in a church service as a tiller preparing the garden for the seed, which of course is the message being brought forth. The church service should have many goals for the service, and all should lead to the growth of the whole person. But I believe, and have experienced, that all parts should lead to the seed of the word landing on good soil. And the musical worship will surely help break up the ground.

A lot of worship leaders clash with the senior pastor when they think that the musical worship is the most important aspect of the modern service. I have seen people come down the aisle during music, but that's in response to other seed. Most of the time, people respond the the Word. And that is right.

Musical worship is vital as a preparation for the powerful seed in the modern service. And in my opinion, all parts should point to the message. I play on stage left, so my Tele points to the pulpit anyway!

I play on stage left, so my Tele points to the pulpit anyway! :mrgreen: Thats quality.

This is also interesting, current style is Music first followed by message as per bray83 and all the services I ever remember. But Im sure that in the 'early church' and still in synagogue (perhaps a few could confirm?) its message first which leads to the outbreak of singing because of the swell of feeling the message brings. Now when I was in P+W many moons ago I was told as most others have been told its "our job (using Teles etc) to help to get the folks through the singing 'into' a focused place ready to hear the message".
Only twice in my lifetime was it done the other way around, and I can say that it 'rocked' way more because the response to the message was heartfelt. Now I get where the idea comes from but all I'm sasking is have you tried it the original way around :?:
(ALSO - Think about a nonC in there for the 1st time and he has to get 'through' a bunch of 'odd' songs before hearing what he came to hear - it may be enough to put him off, and in the end its like bray83 says its the Word bit thats really important)

Anyhow I guess thats another post: are you Tele pre Message or Tele post Message?
(Both is a default answer). what can actually get your mind off of the day-to-day quicker - a, Songs or b, Words.

:mrgreen: Thats quality.

This is also interesting, current style is Music first followed by message as per bray83 and all the services I ever remember. But Im sure that in the 'early church' and still in synagogue (perhaps a few could confirm?) its message first which leads to the outbreak of singing because of the swell of feeling the message brings. Now when I was in P+W many moons ago I was told as most others have been told its "our job (using Teles etc) to help to get the folks through the singing 'into' a focused place ready to hear the message".
Only twice in my lifetime was it done the other way around, and I can say that it 'rocked' way more because the response to the message was heartfelt. Now I get where the idea comes from but all Im saying is have you tried it the original way around?
(ALSO - Think about a nonC in there for the 1st time and he has to get 'through' a bunch of 'odd' songs before hearing what he came to hear - it may be enough to put him off?)

Anyhow I guess thats another post: are you Tele pre Message or Tele post Message?
(Both is a default answer). what can actually get your mind off of the day-to-day quicker - a, Songs or b, Words.

Well, then whoever comes late misses the first chunk of the message. And they are the ones who need it most.

Our church does (roughly):

1 song
Greeting
Announcements
2 songs
Prayer
Offering (with song)
1 song
Message
1 song
Benediction
1 song

Oi - remember to include the word Tele or Deluxe or Twin in every post. :mrgreen:

Yeah thats what im talking about breaking away from the standard setup

Message
loads of songs
end.

Put the P+W back into its No2 position as a response to No1 so it doesnt become more important that 1.

That's good n3tele. Every so often our pastor will want leave some time at the end for celebratory response, with the Tele of course!

We have to remember also, that the incorporated church has a purpose and hopefully goals for any given service. It has to "speak" to a large spectrum vastly different spiritual states, and one is no more important than the other. I think you don't even have to be spiritual to see the wisdom in not having a standard, "correct" order of service. We deliver what the people need. The old testament has both songs of ascension (going to the temple) and praise after the sacrifice (or message). So either way has it's pros. We need not get settled in one way.

You till before seed, but the tiller doesn't have to be the music, can be prayer, or even remembering the words of a previous mentor. Sometimes my heart is tilled when I remember some of the lessons my late father taught me.

Oooh, a new name for my Tele, the ground breaker!

Oooh, a new name for my Tele, the ground breaker!

what about "The Plow"

Oi - remember to include the word Tele or Deluxe or Twin in every post. :mrgreen:

Yeah thats what im talking about breaking away from the standard setup

Message
loads of songs
end.

Put the P+W back into its No2 position as a response to No1 so it doesnt become more important that 1.
Is the first paragraph or the last paragraph more important in a book?

OP here - Im back since my weekend away and noticed that the Admins havent deleted the thread:?:

We didn't delete it because frankly none of us have read it. There are several thousand posts on the TDPRI every day, and we don't go looking for trouble, it generally gets reported to us (see the little red "REPORT" under your username?). If you wanted this thread closed, all you had to do was either click on that to report a trouble post or thread, or send a PM to any of us moderators.

I'd also note that opening a new thread because we closed an earlier thread is PROFOUNDLY against the rules. If we close down a discussion, it's closed. Period.

I'll also repeat the rules here, which are posted right at the top of this page:

Worship Service Players Religious service players discussion forum. Open to all religions. No religious theology discussion, just guitar & playing performance discussion.


It's not ambiguous.

I'm going to close this thread, and I'm going to report it to Paul. Don't be surprised if this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Tim