Criticism Requested: All advice good.

Greetings,

No one knows better what sounds good in gospel music than other players. I would like as much criticism on my playing as you can offer. I will not, can not and shall not take offense to anything posted. All criticism is helping me get better so please point out anywhere I can improve.

Thank you.

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I can't hear your guitar well enough to offer any type of critique. When I turn it up the vocals are just too overpowering to make out the guitar part. Sorry.

Okay, thank you. That was good advice. I need to turn up in the mixing board so the house output is louder.

I can't hear your guitar well enough to offer any type of critique. When I turn it up the vocals are just too overpowering to make out the guitar part. Sorry.

+1, I think the vocalist need to listen better, and not try to overpower each other. I can tell they are feeling the message, but for people to recieve the message it MUST be in a pleasant ( to the ears ) way. Turn down the mics a little and increase the guitar volume justa tad bit.
I only heard your guitar a couple of times, get someone to mix this from the back of the room if possible.

+1, I think the vocalist need to listen better, and not try to overpower each other. I can tell they are feeling the message, but for people to recieve the message it MUST be in a pleasant ( to the ears ) way. Turn down the mics a little and increase the guitar volume just a tad bit.
I only heard your guitar a couple of times, get someone to mix this from the back of the room if possible.

We have a sound person but he is not completely trained on adjusting the sound for optimal output (My fault because I half-trained him when our First Lady requested that I play in the band up in the musician pit. I used to run the audio). I need to sit with him one day and help him understand that the mics don't need to be so loud.
:sad:
That was good advice. Thank you.

Yup, tough to hear the guitar in that clip, mainly because of your keyboard player. :wink:

Your keyboard player is covering all the lows & mids, along with a lot of arpeggios... you'll never be able to compete with that on guitar. The best thing you can do in that situation is play your chords up high on the neck, away from the sonic range that the keyboard is playing in, and just keep some steady rhythm "stabs," ala Motown/Stax stuff. Then, if he ever does happen to play up in the higher ranges, you move down low... you have to play "around" him. Also, with "active" vocalists like you have, keep your fills/noodling to a minimum, since they're doing so much of it vocally already.

Yup, tough to hear the guitar in that clip, mainly because of your keyboard player. :wink:

Your keyboard player is covering all the lows & mids, along with a lot of arpeggios... you'll never be able to compete with that on guitar. The best thing you can do in that situation is play your chords up high on the neck, away from the sonic range that the keyboard is playing in, and just keep some steady rhythm "stabs," ala Motown/Stax stuff. Then, if he ever does happen to play up in the higher ranges, you move down low... you have to play "around" him. Also, with "active" vocalists like you have, keep your fills/noodling to a minimum, since they're doing so much of it vocally already.

You know what...I was thinking that when I was playing. I could barely hear myself (As far as sonically different from what he was playing). I will have to make sure I play higher up because he usually takes the lows and mids...and sometimes the highs too. I will just have to practice jumping around.

Thank you, that was KEY advice!!

Hi thighbanez, I have to agree with what the rest of the posters said. Having said that, what I did hear was very tastefully done.

Hi thighbanez, I have to agree with what the rest of the posters said. Having said that, what I did hear was very tastefully done.

Kewl, Thank you twice (Once for both comments)!

:mrgreen:

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Wow...thank you!

I wish I had an opportunity again to play in a band with no obnoxious keyboard. :sad: It would be a real learning experience to sit in with a "Guitar-oriented" band so I can get a better idea of how the dynamics work.

Yup, you definitely need to be turned up. It's all keyboard, which is covering the whole space. So the only thing I can think of is to play up high, like another reply said. But from what I can hear, you're playing all clean tones. If most of your church's songs are like that, clean tones is the way to go. But it might be interesting to bust out an overdrive and wah. That'll turn some heads.

Yup, you definitely need to be turned up. It's all keyboard, which is covering the whole space. So the only thing I can think of is to play up high, like another reply said. But from what I can hear, you're playing all clean tones. If most of your church's songs are like that, clean tones is the way to go. But it might be interesting to bust out an overdrive and wah. That'll turn some heads.

Wow, I thought I was pretty dirty in that song. I had my Galaxie-Modded BD-2 on along with my DD100 delay. I guess I was so quiet it sounded clean. I will definitely turn up at the mixer so it's louder in the house and the recording.
And playing up high will help too. I need to practice that more.

Thank you!
:grin:

Wow...thank you!

I wish I had an opportunity again to play in a band with no obnoxious keyboard. :sad: It would be a real learning experience to sit in with a "Guitar-oriented" band so I can get a better idea of how the dynamics work.

Having a keyboard in the band shouldn't deflate your excitement for playing guitar in that band. But, the keyboard player (and everyone else too) needs to get the "I'm part of a bigger whole". Maybe you will be the one to introduce your leader (and thus, everyone else) to that concept. And, it's not guitar oriented, but worship music is vocal oriented - for those leading the singing, and for those singing along.

I've always thought one really simple thought to keep in mind, for people just starting to play this way, is that now:

"What you play probably would sound stupid if you were playing it all by yourself".

If the keyboard player keeps that in mind, then he'll realize, I don't need to use all 10 fingers to play this thing. Sometimes 1, 2, or 3 will be fine, and it may be real high, or real low, and when I practice this at home, my wife should be asking why I'm playing the song so stupidly and she should be begging me to play it "the right way" (but I won't).

Having a keyboard in the band shouldn't deflate your excitement for playing guitar in that band. But, the keyboard player (and everyone else too) needs to get the "I'm part of a bigger whole". Maybe you will be the one to introduce your leader (and thus, everyone else) to that concept. And, it's not guitar oriented, but worship music is vocal oriented - for those leading the singing, and for those singing along.

I've always thought one really simple thought to keep in mind, for people just starting to play this way, is that now:

"What you play probably would sound stupid if you were playing it all by yourself".

If the keyboard player keeps that in mind, then he'll realize, I don't need to use all 10 fingers to play this thing. Sometimes 1, 2, or 3 will be fine, and it may be real high, or real low, and when I practice this at home, my wife should be asking why I'm playing the song so stupidly and she should be begging me to play it "the right way" (but I won't).

I wish that were an option. The drummer and I have no influence/control over the keyboardist as he is the music director. he is self taught and has been the only musical instrument for most of the 13 years that the church has been active. It's only in the last 8 that drums and guitar have been added. So he is used to carrying the whole show on his own and cannot seem to think any other way.


I try to accent what is being sung, but it seems I can't do that effectively when he is doing it too...as well as filling in the melody also.

My only choice is to play around him sonically, and for that I will DEFINITELY have to practice playing above the 12th fret. :wink:

You don't even have to play much above the 12th fret to stand out... usually from the 7th-12th is good if you're on the G-B-E strings. Also, maybe you & the drummer need to sit down & talk to your leader about leaving you guys a little more sonic space, and working together more as a band. How can you be a team if you don't communicate? Plus, he should start learning how to back off now, because if you guys ever get a bass player, the mix will be even worse with him stepping all over the bass player's parts, too.

One more thing... do you guys ever just sit and jam to a 1 or 2 chord vamp for a while? I've found that, for my band, that really helps them to listen to what the others are doing & work on their dynamics. Everyone will play the main riff a few times at med. volume until they get in the groove, then we take turns soloing. When a solo starts, the rest of the band gets quiet, the gradually builds as the solo builds. It's a fantastic way to learn to play together, as everyone can totally focus on listening, since there are no chord changes or singers to worry about. It might help your keyboard player to see that he's not the only one in the band, and it might help you and the drummer to learn how to be a little more assertive with your playing.

You don't even have to play much above the 12th fret to stand out... usually from the 7th-12th is good if you're on the G-B-E strings. Also, maybe you & the drummer need to sit down & talk to your leader about leaving you guys a little more sonic space, and working together more as a band. How can you be a team if you don't communicate? Plus, he should start learning how to back off now, because if you guys ever get a bass player, the mix will be even worse with him stepping all over the bass player's parts, too.


I would like to, but it seems the only time we get together is either for choir rehearsal or for church. Between my issues of married life and distance to the church and his life (always playing out with someone somewhere)...there's not much opportunity for me to catch up with them (Keyboardist and drummer) when they are practicing.


One more thing... do you guys ever just sit and jam to a 1 or 2 chord vamp for a while? I've found that, for my band, that really helps them to listen to what the others are doing & work on their dynamics. Everyone will play the main riff a few times at med. volume until they get in the groove, then we take turns soloing. When a solo starts, the rest of the band gets quiet, the gradually builds as the solo builds. It's a fantastic way to learn to play together, as everyone can totally focus on listening, since there are no chord changes or singers to worry about. It might help your keyboard player to see that he's not the only one in the band, and it might help you and the drummer to learn how to be a little more assertive with your playing.

We do that sometimes after church, but you can almost guarantee that within 2 minutes someone will come along and try to pull one of us away for some mundane task when they can see that we are practicing. :mad:
Because of that, we never really get anywhere after church on sundays.

It's the main reason that I am looking for another Christian Band to join where I live so that I can get a real feel for a band again. I played in one for about a month but they wanted me on bass...and of course I didn't know bass at the time...so it ended fairly quick. Not my fault though, they advertised for a guitarist and when I showed up, the bassist decided he wanted to learn how to play guitar because it was his band. :roll:

I listened to this recording as well as those you posted a few months back when you asked for criticism. I have a similar comment as last time. You need to be playing rhythm. I don't think I have ever heard you play any chords. Why is that? Given your keyboardist's style I think that's the only thing that would work. He does alot of noodling (in addition to chord work). So when you noodle as well (single note stuff) it just gets lost. Hit the chords when he hits them and then add some strums in between.

I think that instruments do one of two things. Either they form a foundation or they add coloring. You seem to want to provide coloring and I honestly don't think it's required in your band. I don't mean for this to be offensive, but you aren't adding anything to the sound. I'm not saying you are a bad player- you're not. But the music doesn't need what you are playing in my opinion. I do think it could use some strong rhythm guitar work however. Also, by playing rhythm you can lock into a grove with your drummer. This would sound really strong.

I challenge you to challenge yourself to play rhythm on at least one song this Sunday or next. On some quieter songs it may be very simple and not so challenging, but remember that your guitar is there to support the song, not to give you the satisfaction of struttin' your stuff.

Good luck and let us know how things progress. I commend you for asking for feedback. It's a scary thing to do, and you are brave for it!

Keyboard is too loud, which leads to the lead vocalist being too loud, which leads to all the vocals being too loud. Guitar and drums sound about right. Watch out for comb filtering using that many vocal mics.

Part of the solution might be to give the keyboardist his own monitor so it doesn't have to be so loud for him to hear himself.

Is the intent to have the congregation sing along with the choir, or is it for the choir to sing by itself? I can't tell from the video, but I get the impression that this is a choir solo, so to speak.

Since the keyboard is so dark (i.e., bass-heavy), you are going to have a hard time fitting into that mix - it's the same frequency range that the guitar occupies. Try playing upper 4 strings above the 5th fret only.

Maybe sometimes you could try doubling the vocal line, if the lead singer sticks to a melody without embellishments - difficult in this style, since the singer tends to put in lots of ornaments.

My last comment is that it's really hard to play guitar with a keyboardist with such a florid and dark-toned style. The k'b'dist is playing all the harmonies, hasn't really adjusted to playing with other instruments, to my ear. About the best you can do is to learn to play "guide tones" (the 3rd and 7th of the chord) with occasional fills and leave everything else out.

I listened to this recording as well as those you posted a few months back when you asked for criticism. I have a similar comment as last time. You need to be playing rhythm. I don't think I have ever heard you play any chords. Why is that? Given your keyboardist's style I think that's the only thing that would work. He does alot of noodling (in addition to chord work). So when you noodle as well (single note stuff) it just gets lost. Hit the chords when he hits them and then add some strums in between.


I understand what you mean, but I'm not fast enough at figuring out what chords are in a song the first time I'm hearing it. I've mentioned before that my church is completely "Off the cuff" and they never play the same thing twice. The disappointing part of being in a COGIC band is that everything is completely freestyle. There are no chord sheets or charts for anything because 99.9% of the players are self taught.

For example: I spent a week charting out a song by our First Lady called "Walk with me Lord". I got the chord changes, rhythm and everything down perfect according to the recording. The next week the choir sang it in a different key and in a different structure.
I wound up falling back on playing lead fills throughout the song because I couldn't figure out what the heck they were doing chord-wise and structure-wise.

I'm just not there yet. :sad:
I had hoped I'd improved by playing power chords throughout the song, but even when I play power chords or octave chords, you can't hear me because the keyboard is playing all over me...or I'm playing all under the keyboards...or something....but whatever is going wrong, I'm not being heard.


I think that instruments do one of two things. Either they form a foundation or they add coloring. You seem to want to provide coloring and I honestly don't think it's required in your band. I don't mean for this to be offensive, but you aren't adding anything to the sound. I'm not saying you are a bad player- you're not. But the music doesn't need what you are playing in my opinion. I do think it could use some strong rhythm guitar work however. Also, by playing rhythm you can lock into a grove with your drummer. This would sound really strong.

I challenge you to challenge yourself to play rhythm on at least one song this Sunday or next. On some quieter songs it may be very simple and not so challenging, but remember that your guitar is there to support the song, not to give you the satisfaction of struttin' your stuff.

Good luck and let us know how things progress. I commend you for asking for feedback. It's a scary thing to do, and you are brave for it!

Thank you!!
I believe I definitely need an example of what I should be doing. I have no concept of what playing rhythm guitar is or how to "Lock in" with the drummer. :oops:

Can anyone help me with that? I just don't understand what more I need to do to play rhythm besides playing power chords through the song.
:oops:

Keyboard is too loud, which leads to the lead vocalist being too loud, which leads to all the vocals being too loud. Guitar and drums sound about right. Watch out for comb filtering using that many vocal mics.

Part of the solution might be to give the keyboardist his own monitor so it doesn't have to be so loud for him to hear himself.


Hehe, the keyboardist has both of his amps (which function as his monitors along with his headphone monitors) sitting right at his left leg pointed at him. I can usually hear his amps over my own headphone monitors and my amp.


Is the intent to have the congregation sing along with the choir, or is it for the choir to sing by itself? I can't tell from the video, but I get the impression that this is a choir solo, so to speak.

It's a full sing-along. Everyone participates.


Since the keyboard is so dark (i.e., bass-heavy), you are going to have a hard time fitting into that mix - it's the same frequency range that the guitar occupies. Try playing upper 4 strings above the 5th fret only.

Maybe sometimes you could try doubling the vocal line, if the lead singer sticks to a melody without embellishments - difficult in this style, since the singer tends to put in lots of ornaments.

I do double the vocalist at times. There is one song, "God is good, all the time" where I can do that because even if she does embellish, everyone knows how the song goes and if I play the vocal line, I never sound out of place. That part never changes. :mrgreen:


My last comment is that it's really hard to play guitar with a keyboardist with such a florid and dark-toned style. The k'b'dist is playing all the harmonies, hasn't really adjusted to playing with other instruments, to my ear. About the best you can do is to learn to play "guide tones" (the 3rd and 7th of the chord) with occasional fills and leave everything else out.

Well, thank you for the sobering advice. I feel better knowing that it is not ALL my lack of skill in playing guitar. I really want to do this right and I really want to give it my best...but I can't get better in this environment. My heart and my head are telling me that I REALLY need to play with a guitar-based band so that I understand how the guitar works better. I don't get the feeling that I'm ever going to progress in my church band with the musical environment being this way. Unless something happens to the keyboardist, there just will never be any room for me. :neutral:

I'm not sad or angry anymore...
I just have to accept it for what it is and ask God what to do next.

Thank you and God bless you all.

I understand what you mean, but I'm not fast enough at figuring out what chords are in a song the first time I'm hearing it. I've mentioned before that my church is completely "Off the cuff" and they never play the same thing twice. The disappointing part of being in a COGIC band is that everything is completely freestyle. There are no chord sheets or charts for anything because 99.9% of the players are self taught.

OMG, so no chord sheets, no rehearsals, no knowing in advance what you will be playing? I feel so sorry for you. I can't imagine trying to participate in that situation. And since the music director is calling the shots, I imagine there is no way to change this. Hmmmm.... I don't know what to tell you. Sorry. I guess the best thing is to pray on it. Perhaps also speak with your pastor.

Unless something happens to the keyboardist...

Do you need suggestions?:twisted:

Like what has already been said, what can be heard sounds very good and fitting.
It seems like the music group needs to have a sit down and get organized. It would be to your benefit (assuming they are open minded and wanting things to sound as good as possible) to tell them what you personally are/ aren't hearing and what you feel needs to be done. You obviously are not an egotistical, in your face personality. In other words, perfect for what needs to be done for church performances, in my opinion.

I personally would suggest recording some rehearsals "your" way (with the suggestions that you feel are neccesary) and some "their" way (this video would be a good example, as it drowns out other dynamics). Once you have what you feel you need to show the band, have a rehearsal in which you listen rather than play. Put it on a tv, cd player, etc, whatever... and have everyone sit down and focus on listening, then discuss.

Whether or not this would be possible is another thing, but if everyone would/ could cooperate as needed, it would benefit the sound as a whole. Not knowing anyone there or their personalities, would it be neccesary to tell anybody something along the lines of-"It's not about you personally, it's about US for HIM"? Church choirs have every 'need' filled with different voices. All members are working towards one goal, doing what they need. Remind them that the band needs to do the same thing.

Your playing was not showy or 'in your face', but it fit perfectly, the way it should be. Good luck.

I wrote a letter to the WL/Keyboardist detailing my dilemma.

I have been studying gospel rhythm guitar this week like you advised...but I'm still perplexed.
I found a few good examples on youtube, like this guy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tudswlqMVs
He says that it's better to play the chords rather than the lead lines because if the keyboard/organs aren't there you can carry the music.
But none of the youtube guys can explain how to pick up the chords to play the songs or fit in better. My issue with it all is that everyone seems to instinctively "Know" the chords for the songs straight off the bat...without any training...and I just don't get it!!

Out of the 50 or so videos I watched this was the only one that had any REAL kind of guidance for chords.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzMfGQfT42Q&NR=1

But that one is rare and literally the ONLY one I found for the music we play at our church. All the contemporary christian worship music I played in my other band is all over the net with chords, tabs, lessons and guides.

I'm still feeling that there is something about "Black" gospel music that I just am not getting that everyone else seems to understand...but can't teach.
Is this a soul thing? I just really don't get it...

At our church everything is played differently each time it's played so is there a general set of chords I can learn that will allow me to shift and slide with all of the different keys that the songs get sung in? I know that everything is different for the guitar but it can't be THAT different.

One of my gifts is that I can learn anything if there is just a hint of a guide or reference point...but for COGIC music, I have found close to nothing.

I appreciate all that you have done to help me in my understanding of how music works in our church, but I still feel lost in my miniscule understanding of how it all works. I know that you say that I've gotten better and I appreciate it, but I still don't see/hear it in my playing.

sincerely,
Bro Thighbanez


Hopefully he will understand

Like what has already been said, what can be heard sounds very good and fitting.
It seems like the music group needs to have a sit down and get organized. It would be to your benefit (assuming they are open minded and wanting things to sound as good as possible) to tell them what you personally are/ aren't hearing and what you feel needs to be done. You obviously are not an egotistical, in your face personality. In other words, perfect for what needs to be done for church performances, in my opinion.

I personally would suggest recording some rehearsals "your" way (with the suggestions that you feel are necessary) and some "their" way (this video would be a good example, as it drowns out other dynamics). Once you have what you feel you need to show the band, have a rehearsal in which you listen rather than play. Put it on a tv, cd player, etc, whatever... and have everyone sit down and focus on listening, then discuss.


This is a great idea. I am going to do just that on Thursday after bible study. We have a huge monitor in the overflow room that I can hook my media player to. I will show them the video from this thread that is on my YouTube page. I think everyone will benefit...including the sound-board guy.


Whether or not this would be possible is another thing, but if everyone would/ could cooperate as needed, it would benefit the sound as a whole. Not knowing anyone there or their personalities, would it be necessary to tell anybody something along the lines of-"It's not about you personally, it's about US for HIM"? Church choirs have every 'need' filled with different voices. All members are working towards one goal, doing what they need. Remind them that the band needs to do the same thing.

Your playing was not showy or 'in your face', but it fit perfectly, the way it should be. Good luck.

Thank you. I really just want to fit in better. I can do all the showboating stuff on my own time or at the local guitar store. :lol:

I get the feeling that we all do not know the way things should be done (the music section I mean) and because of that no one can really guide anyone else. We are all self-taught but the keyboardist and lead vocalist have been playing and singing the longest. They usually are the leadership in the music/choir areas. I haven't made a firm suggestion before on how things should change, but I am going to try this week. I know that it is not all me at fault...if I never make anything known, no one will ever change.

Thanks again.
:smile:

I believe I definitely need an example of what I should be doing. I have no concept of what playing rhythm guitar is or how to "Lock in" with the drummer. :oops:

Can anyone help me with that? I just don't understand what more I need to do to play rhythm besides playing power chords through the song.
:oops:

No offense meant, Thighbanez, but it sounds like you're in way over your head on this gig. You might want to find a good teacher in your area, and invest in some private lessons for a while to help you get up to speed.

Power chords are 180 degrees from what you should be doing with that style of music... you have to think funk/soul/r&b! To lock in with the drummer, you should be focusing on what he's doing on the high hat... you're going to have to spend a bunch of time with your drummer to get a feel for it. There's some good basic info here: http://guitar.about.com/od/funkguitar/ss/funk-guitar-lesson.htm

No offense meant, Thighbanez, but it sounds like you're in way over your head on this gig. You might want to find a good teacher in your area, and invest in some private lessons for a while to help you get up to speed.


I tried that route before and I felt ripped off afterwards.
The first private instructor I had was a college guy that came out to my apartment at the time. I wound up teaching him stuff and after 3 sessions of showing him my stuff I was discovering I thought i was paying him for teaching him. Needless to say, the wife wasn't happy and that had to end.

The second time I paid for lessons I got a lot of theory that I put to use the year after my lessons, but no immediately useful knowledge considering I went in there to learn how to play Hendrix-Style. Still wound up learning that on my own.

I don't know if I would pay for lessons again.


Power chords are 180 degrees from what you should be doing with that style of music... you have to think funk/soul/r&b! To lock in with the drummer, you should be focusing on what he's doing on the high hat... you're going to have to spend a bunch of time with your drummer to get a feel for it. There's some good basic info here: http://guitar.about.com/od/funkguitar/ss/funk-guitar-lesson.htm

Goodness!! :shock:
I just got off the phone with the WL/Keyboardist and he said the EXACT SAME THING!! He told me that COGIC gospel is a combination of Funk, RnB and blues and that I have to learn them and understand when to add in elements of each. The drummer is as new to playing music with others as I am and he mentioned that I should try to "Lock in" with the drummer because we are on the same learning level. He said that he is proud of me for noticing that there is a difference in the music and what I know to play and the lack of available guides for the music. We spoke for about 30 minutes regarding the music and he wants me to stay encouraged because he sees my improvement and that I am listening more instead of just playing all the time.
He echoed the guidance here that If I am going to throw in fills they should be higher pitched so that they are heard...but if I'm going to follow him to play the single notes of the chords he is playing.

Wow, everyone's advice here was spot-on and almost exactly what my WL/Keyboardist said.

Thank you all for caring enough to help me out. I really truly appreciate it.
Okay, getting teary...I better run.

:grin:
*BIG HUG*

I use to play Hammond B3 in a COGIC church. I loved the freestyle way of doing things but it can trainwreck if there are inexperienced musicians. Try having a heart to heart talk with the worship leader and other musicians on ways to make it better. Because the keys to the songs may never be in the same key twice in a row your ear will develop which is a good thing. Don't give up and give it time for the Lord to work things out. God bless, Wayne

Wow, that song was about 6 minutes too long for my tastes. (And I love a good 13 minute jam.)

Whenever I hear someone mention that a musician is self-taught I get a nervous twitch. That usually means i'm stuck working with someone who has bad rhythm, bad scale and chord knowledge, bad comping skills with singers...you get the idea. But every once and awhile someone will blow me away. So its possible.
Although self taught is often a poor word choice. I am self taught mostly - However, I have spent years studying recordings, video's, interviews, and attending concerts of the musicians I admire. So I'm not really self taught. I learn from the best.

I had a great player give me advice once. Nasty advice too. First he said my guitar playing was annoying. (He was right!) Then he said I needed to stop playing with poorly skilled musicians. He claimed I was developing lots of lazy bad habits.
I took this to heart and started seriously working on my faults. I'm still stuck playing with poorly skilled musicians at times. But I now hold my ground and stop rehearsals when problems are developing. Church musicians can be the most easily offended ego's in the business. But someone's got to speak the truth about tuning, tone, notes, intros etc.

I would say learn as much as you can from the keyboardist. But I seldom see an old dog learn new tricks. I doubt that keyboardist is going to learn from you. A bassist would make your church group way more interesting. It would probably give the keyboardist a hernia as well. Although maybe he's up for the challenge?

Are you listening to music like this at home? If not then you need to develop a repertoire of licks and chord comps for this style. Although after listening to it I don't think any chording will work with what the keyboardist is doing. At least if you had a bassist the two of you could agree on chord structure.
Go buy Gov't Mule's The Deepest End DVD. You can watch a great picker (Warren Haynes) jam with tons of great soul, jazz, funk, rock musicians. Not everyones favourite - but he has great tone and chord comping.

Honestly I fail to see how that music causes people to reflect and worship God as a congregation. Just sounds like a bunch of people showing off and being emotional. but hey! To each their own.

he is self taught and has been the only musical instrument for most of the 13 years that the church has been active......So he is used to carrying the whole show on his own.......

This is easily the most important thing you've said. As I listened and read the posts, I was thinking to myself, "Sounds like the keyboard player is used to being the whole band by himself, sounds like he is used to practicing the songs by himself where the keyboard is the rhythm+chords+bass+fills+melody all by itself all the time." I didn't even really notice if there was any 4 or 8 bar stretches without any vocals, the vocals seemed to be singing in every bar, all the time. A cultural view back to the old days when voices were all they had, and pianos could fill in everything else because they didn't cover up the voices.

I would be tempted to sit down for a heart to heart and ask the leader "Why do you need me? Your piano playing covers it all at once, why am I here?" Then go find that Christian band you are seeking and start playing with them. No spite, no hostility, but no sugar on the facts either, just play it cheerful and straight. The music deserves an answer to that question......why does he need guitar, drums, and bass when the piano does it all all the time?

Playing in a band is a whole different story, and requires a whole different approach and different method......from all the players, not just from the ones who don't fit the traditional stereotype like electric guitars. I like for the music to hit the heart like a tank, but I would never try to drive that tank by myself.

After hearing this clip, I understand your other recent thread a lot better. For several days now I've had the phrase, ".....Because Chris Tomlin doesn't jam...." going thru my head, and I still laugh out loud every time.

Keep us posted on how this plays out (no pun intended!) :wink:

I forgot to mention about the sound man role. It is one thing to know "technically speaking" how the sound board works, what all the knobs do, where to plug things in, etc.....

It is a whole 'nother nutter peanut butter cookie for the sound man to have a musical ear that knows how to get a musical mix, a mix that sounds great to the crowd, and not just a bunch of board settings that are "techincally correct." Some times "technically correct" is not "musically sonorous."

I try to get our sound guys to accept the notion that the sound board is the "invisible band member." One setting does not work for every song. It is not a maverick missle "fire and forget" thing. The sound man can make the music a lot better by "playing the board like another instrument." He (or she?) does not have to over do it, but know the songs and have a sense for when to ride the fader on the harmony vocal sub group, or when to push the guitar for a solo, etc....

And my biggest sticking point.....learn to mute the mics when the singers are done and putting their mics back on the stands. Dont' let that handling noise echo thru the sanctuary, I absolutely hate that, especially when (with a sub group) the guy only has to push one button to mute all the mics.

Wow, that song was about 6 minutes too long for my tastes. (And I love a good 13 minute jam.)

Whenever I hear someone mention that a musician is self-taught I get a nervous twitch. That usually means i'm stuck working with someone who has bad rhythm, bad scale and chord knowledge, bad comping skills with singers...you get the idea. But every once and awhile someone will blow me away. So its possible.
Although self taught is often a poor word choice. I am self taught mostly - However, I have spent years studying recordings, video's, interviews, and attending concerts of the musicians I admire. So I'm not really self taught. I learn from the best.

I had a great player give me advice once. Nasty advice too. First he said my guitar playing was annoying. (He was right!) Then he said I needed to stop playing with poorly skilled musicians. He claimed I was developing lots of lazy bad habits.
I took this to heart and started seriously working on my faults. I'm still stuck playing with poorly skilled musicians at times. But I now hold my ground and stop rehearsals when problems are developing. Church musicians can be the most easily offended ego's in the business. But someone's got to speak the truth about tuning, tone, notes, intros etc.


Very true. It's hard to take criticism if you can't separate it from your own ego and understand that it comes to help you.


I would say learn as much as you can from the keyboardist. But I seldom see an old dog learn new tricks. I doubt that keyboardist is going to learn from you. A bassist would make your church group way more interesting. It would probably give the keyboardist a hernia as well. Although maybe he's up for the challenge?

Are you listening to music like this at home? If not then you need to develop a repertoire of licks and chord comps for this style. Although after listening to it I don't think any chording will work with what the keyboardist is doing. At least if you had a bassist the two of you could agree on chord structure.
Go buy Gov't Mule's The Deepest End DVD. You can watch a great picker (Warren Haynes) jam with tons of great soul, jazz, funk, rock musicians. Not everyones favourite - but he has great tone and chord comping.


I find myself not listening to this particular type of gospel at home because there are no tabs, chords or anything taught for it. If you ask anyone anything about it...you will receive a response that "You can't learn it, you have to feel it" :roll:
At home I mostly play and practice contemporary christian music like hillsong and jeremy camp. I will admit that Internally, I have stopped trying to learn anything for this style of music because it's hard to understand for me. I just "Go with the flow" since it's what that genre seems to expect anyway. There's no way to prepare or practice anything that would be used or repeated live. I will check out that Warren Haynes dvd on youtube that you recommended. I liked his playing with Neil Young on a few song redos from the "Rust never sleeps" album/tour.

This is easily the most important thing you've said. As I listened and read the posts, I was thinking to myself, "Sounds like the keyboard player is used to being the whole band by himself, sounds like he is used to practicing the songs by himself where the keyboard is the rhythm+chords+bass+fills+melody all by itself all the time." I didn't even really notice if there was any 4 or 8 bar stretches without any vocals, the vocals seemed to be singing in every bar, all the time. A cultural view back to the old days when voices were all they had, and pianos could fill in everything else because they didn't cover up the voices.

Yeah...between the voices and the keyboard, there is no space for anything else. If one of them stops, the other fills in the sonic space with some kind of noodling....whether it be vocal or instrumental.


I would be tempted to sit down for a heart to heart and ask the leader "Why do you need me? Your piano playing covers it all at once, why am I here?" Then go find that Christian band you are seeking and start playing with them. No spite, no hostility, but no sugar on the facts either, just play it cheerful and straight. The music deserves an answer to that question......why does he need guitar, drums, and bass when the piano does it all all the time?
I have asked myself that question for over 2 years now. I honestly don't believe that I am needed. Our First Lady (Pastors wife) asked me to play guitar with the music section when I was playing in the back of the church
while doing audio and practicing. It was the only way I could play with other people besides youtube. (I don't get to get out much...ringfinger of doom)
I am going to continue to play at church until I can find a band to play with.


Playing in a band is a whole different story, and requires a whole different approach and different method......from all the players, not just from the ones who don't fit the traditional stereotype like electric guitars. I like for the music to hit the heart like a tank, but I would never try to drive that tank by myself. There is no formal teaching at my church so no one really knows any better. I think that is the source of the problem. I've not had a chance to play with many real musicians, and they haven't had any exposure to anything but what they've always had...so everyone loses.
I'm just as guilty as anyone in my ignorance and inexperience.


After hearing this clip, I understand your other recent thread a lot better. For several days now I've had the phrase, ".....Because Chris Tomlin doesn't jam...." going thru my head, and I still laugh out loud every time.

Keep us posted on how this plays out (no pun intended!) :wink:

Will do! :wink:

Another week...another service.
I just can't compete with the keyboards!

I set up my sound to be too loud for my ears prior to service starting. By the time we were actually playing I couldn't hear myself. I can't believe how loud everything was. And it wasn't the soundman either because he wasn't there!

In listening to the recording, I can't be heard either. :oops:

Maybe my ears are too sensitive.
I think if I put my earplugs in and played loud enough to hear myself...then I would be on equal territory with the keyboards and vocals.
:shock::lol:

This is not a technical problem. It is a people problem. It doesn't seem that it's a priority for you to be heard. Our church used to be like that.

The fact is, you are there for a reason. If it is to appease you and let you think you are contributing, then the goal is being reached. If you are there to add something to the worship service, then it's not happening.

If I were you, I'd talk to the keyboardist, and ask that he listen to the recording with you, because you want to make sure you as a band are putting out the best sound and the best mix. It will be easy to note, at that point, that the guitar is invisible.

Let him know that you really want to contribute to the worship, and your goal isn't to be up front and "be seen" - you want to bring worship to God with your gift.

Sometimes Christian musicians feel like they are seeking approval from men rather than God when this kind of thing comes up, but really, you want to be on the team for the right reason, and simply looking like you are playing isn't it.

And, I forget if it's been mentioned in this thread or not, but casually getting together and jamming is a great way for each of you to be comfortable with the others and trusting each other to give, then take, and let the band and the song breathe!

It sounded just fine to me. Sure, maybe the mix on the film ain't perfect, but you know sometimes the guitar isn't meant to stand out, but just fill a space. Sometimes it's when you 'stop' playing that people notice you were contributing the most. :wink:

I used to do sound at my church when I lived in Maryland. The sound person is critical in getting the mix right for the house and on the tape. I'm surprise he is not telling you he can't hear you and making adjustments for that. We did not have a guitar player in our band, just drums, keyboard, bass, and a ridiculously talented flutist. The leader was the keyboardist and he knew music, which makes a difference. "This style of music" is not a free for all, it might be to the people you are playing with though.

I like that advice about playing with better musicians. This is true of anything you are learning. I'm a software developer and I make sure I have smarter people around me because I learn more. When I played basketball in high school I played with better, older players during the summer to get better.

If you think being in this band is where God wants you then figure out what it is you are there to learn.

Thighbanez,

I feel your pain. I've too have had difficulties trying to be heard and trying to figure out what I can play with a similar keyboardist/style.

To solve the problem of me not hearing myself I used this amp stand to aim it at my own ears, and with the amp miked the sound guy could at least have a shot at adjusting the mix. But as best I could tell, the congregation still couldn't hear much if anything from me.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/amp-central-station/46985d1271617691-mf-folding-amp-stand-imported-photos-00005-jpg

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-central-station/203493-mf-folding-amp-stand.html#post2372541

This is not a technical problem. It is a people problem. It doesn't seem that it's a priority for you to be heard. Our church used to be like that.

The fact is, you are there for a reason. If it is to appease you and let you think you are contributing, then the goal is being reached. If you are there to add something to the worship service, then it's not happening.

If I were you, I'd talk to the keyboardist, and ask that he listen to the recording with you, because you want to make sure you as a band are putting out the best sound and the best mix. It will be easy to note, at that point, that the guitar is invisible.

Let him know that you really want to contribute to the worship, and your goal isn't to be up front and "be seen" - you want to bring worship to God with your gift.

Sometimes Christian musicians feel like they are seeking approval from men rather than God when this kind of thing comes up, but really, you want to be on the team for the right reason, and simply looking like you are playing isn't it.

And, I forget if it's been mentioned in this thread or not, but casually getting together and jamming is a great way for each of you to be comfortable with the others and trusting each other to give, then take, and let the band and the song breathe!



It sounded just fine to me. Sure, maybe the mix on the film ain't perfect, but you know sometimes the guitar isn't meant to stand out, but just fill a space. Sometimes it's when you 'stop' playing that people notice you were contributing the most. :wink:

You have a good point.. along with Geetarplayer also.

I listened to the recording of the Mother's day service, of which I was out of town, and the music sounded hollow. Just that constant jangling piano and the rhythm of the drums. I could hear where I was not in the music...but I wonder if anyone else could.

Ah well...I will continue to fight for equal treatment and keep carrying my cross.

I used to do sound at my church when I lived in Maryland. The sound person is critical in getting the mix right for the house and on the tape. I'm surprise he is not telling you he can't hear you and making adjustments for that. We did not have a guitar player in our band, just drums, keyboard, bass, and a ridiculously talented flutist. The leader was the keyboardist and he knew music, which makes a difference. "This style of music" is not a free for all, it might be to the people you are playing with though.

I like that advice about playing with better musicians. This is true of anything you are learning. I'm a software developer and I make sure I have smarter people around me because I learn more. When I played basketball in high school I played with better, older players during the summer to get better.

If you think being in this band is where God wants you then figure out what it is you are there to learn.

I fault myself for the problems with the sound guy. He is a teenager and most of the time he is checking his phone or playing on the computer instead of paying attention. I could have picked someone older, but I thought choosing the youth would be a good way to get him involved in the service. :sad:

I definitely need to play with better musicians, but with being out in the sticks AND being married it's hard. I can barely get out to a local guitar store event once every few months without sleeping in the doghouse. I honestly don't get to play with anyone else unless there is someone else jamming at the guitar store when I'm there. I've had offers, but everyone is too far away. The air-guitar folk at work talk about playing all day but never bring in their guitars...I leave em and go play on my lunchbreaks. Eventually, I figure I'm going to have to put my foot down with the wife and tell her where to get off so I can improve my guitar skills.

Thighbanez,

I feel your pain. I've too have had difficulties trying to be heard and trying to figure out what I can play with a similar keyboardist/style.

To solve the problem of me not hearing myself I used this amp stand to aim it at my own ears, and with the amp miked the sound guy could at least have a shot at adjusting the mix. But as best I could tell, the congregation still couldn't hear much if anything from me.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/amp-central-station/46985d1271617691-mf-folding-amp-stand-imported-photos-00005-jpg

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-central-station/203493-mf-folding-amp-stand.html#post2372541

I can hear myself just fine. It's just not being heard over the keyboards for some odd reason. I guess I'll just keep turning my channel on the mixing board up until I am heard. Then I can dial it back (at the amp or guitar) for playing quiet. I run my signal from the amp to a DI box then to the snake that leads to the mixing board in the rear of the house.

I think the sound is pretty well mixed actually. I don't hear the guitar much, but every now and then it is there right where it needs to be...and not overpowering anything else.

First of all, you have some good singers! There just doesn't seem to be much balance and with that many singers, you will need some rehearsal with a sound man and get things fairly balanced. As far as the instruments, the keyboard seems to be real "busy", but good. Several keyboard players I've heard in groups seem to play "all out" and not hold open much space for any other instruments to play a part. The bass, drums and keys really need to work together to be on the same rhythm. If the keyboard player would play more basic rhythm for part of the song, there would be your chance to jump in and play some licks. Then you back off and let him play his licks along with his rhythm....trade off. There are so many vocals going on, there isn't much room to begin with. Of course, I know not all of your songs are like that, but this one is busy, busy. There is great potential there....I like it, just balance and take turns with the "fills" and licks. Best of luck. I'd like to hear more when you get it worked out!

Well someone should put that soundkid in check for doing those things during the service. Bro you got a doosey on your hands especially with the style your in. There could be tons of different chords you may need to play. But thats why inversions and substitutes are key. It would take forever for me to explain but I would be willing to help. I know you can't send me a perfect chord chart but try to get me something in the way you may play it. Maybe I can come up with some chords you can throw in. For sure you will need to start studying chords. Lemme know bro.

I listened to this recording as well as those you posted a few months back when you asked for criticism. I have a similar comment as last time. You need to be playing rhythm. I don't think I have ever heard you play any chords. Why is that? Given your keyboardist's style I think that's the only thing that would work. He does alot of noodling (in addition to chord work). So when you noodle as well (single note stuff) it just gets lost. Hit the chords when he hits them and then add some strums in between.

I think that instruments do one of two things. Either they form a foundation or they add coloring. You seem to want to provide coloring and I honestly don't think it's required in your band. I don't mean for this to be offensive, but you aren't adding anything to the sound. I'm not saying you are a bad player- you're not. But the music doesn't need what you are playing in my opinion. I do think it could use some strong rhythm guitar work however. Also, by playing rhythm you can lock into a grove with your drummer. This would sound really strong.

I challenge you to challenge yourself to play rhythm on at least one song this Sunday or next. On some quieter songs it may be very simple and not so challenging, but remember that your guitar is there to support the song, not to give you the satisfaction of struttin' your stuff.

Good luck and let us know how things progress. I commend you for asking for feedback. It's a scary thing to do, and you are brave for it!

Man this is some great advice for ya bro. . . I have a VERY VERY talented 'lead guitar' player that visits our church from time to time, he plays a mean lead guitar . . I have always always wanted to be able to make my guitar "sing the words" like he does. . .

But he has told me something on more than one occasion. "I wish I could Chord like you can." So I am looking at him and I say "no I wish I could play lead like you."

He looks at me and says, "You are the only guitar player and if all you played was what I play it would not sound as good as what you are doing, when I am the only guitar player I do not sound that good."

It really opened my eyes cause we all wanna be that "Lead guitar Guy"

I am first off a Basic rhythm guy, I keep the rhythm going, I will double time some stuff, I will half time some stuff, I will just hold a single strum, then I use a lot of different chord variations to. . . The only time I really try to throw some licks in there is chord changes. . .

Good advice from the quoted poster! That even helps me man, I been trying to lead too much too lately. . .

I posted the above before I saw your post about NO Chord Sheets and NO consistency in the way you do a song from time to time. . .

Uhh

Ummm

Dude. . . I will be praying for ya. :confused:

I honestly don't know what to tell ya.

Well someone should put that soundkid in check for doing those things during the service. Bro you got a doosey on your hands especially with the style your in. There could be tons of different chords you may need to play. But thats why inversions and substitutes are key. It would take forever for me to explain but I would be willing to help. I know you can't send me a perfect chord chart but try to get me something in the way you may play it. Maybe I can come up with some chords you can throw in. For sure you will need to start studying chords. Lemme know bro.

I have been studying chords in the past month and I know a few but the jazzy sounding ones are what it sounds like the keyboardist plays. I can't figure them out on the fly fast enough to be able to keep up with him. :sad:
Without knowing what key the song is going to be played in prior to playing, I just can't computate the chords and the changes fast enough. And that's without trying to keep up with any changes in keys that the singers or the keyboardist may want to throw in there randomly.


I posted the above before I saw your post about NO Chord Sheets and NO consistency in the way you do a song from time to time. . .

Uhh

Ummm

Dude. . . I will be praying for ya. :confused:

I honestly don't know what to tell ya.

Yeah, there is no written method to how the music is played at our church. Makes for a different experience every time, but impossible to plan for.

Well, thank you. I have been trying to learn how to play rhythm and thus far I can only figure it to be playing muted power chords or funk style chords. I will post a video of my progress in applying what everyone here has advised me to do...once it finishes converting.
:wink:

I had a talk with the keyboardist about the sound levels when I'm playing and we came to a compromise. He lowered his volume and I raised mine...

7uq26j8GFQk

I think that it is working out great as a first step. Now I have to continue my Rhythm-playing studies and continue to push towards getting better.