Dont practice with low volume

I've learned to ALWAYS practice in either of these ways:
A) with high amp volume
B) with headphones (and high volume)

The reasons for this are many:
1) Most amps don't have good tone at low volume, especially in the gain area.
2) You don't want to hear your guitar acoustically over the amp because this messes with your head.
3) You want to practice at the same level you perform at.
4) Most importantly, trying to be "quiet" has devastating effects on your playing mechanics.

Uh, I hope you are joking.

It doesn't matter how loud you are when it comes to proper technique/mechanics.

Notes are notes, no matter what the volume. You don't need to blow your ears out in order to learn the notes of a scale.

In fact, I would suggest the opposite. If you practice so loud that your ears start ringing, you are less likely to spend much time practicing. If you keep it low, your ears stay healthy, which means you can spend more time practicing.

I always turn my acoustic up to full volume before playing it.

...

Try playing Pride by U2 quietly. All the strings except 2 are muted and it requires a percussive effect.

Look, buddy. I'm a fingerstyle guitarist so don't condescend to me by saying I may not know how to play quietly.

Umm ok I can play that as well but still at low volumes, you definetly dont have to blast it to mute strings or get a percussive effect...

Look, buddy. I'm a fingerstyle guitarist so don't condescend to me by saying I may not know how to play quietly.

I never said you never knew how to play quietly. I just questioned the reasoning why you think someone has to practice loudly. Feel free to prove me wrong, as I'm not meaning to be condescending at all.

Also, I don't know what fingerstyle has to do with anything. A guitar player that uses a pick should also know how to play quiet as well. For what its worth, I'm a fingerstyle player too.

Let me clarify what I mean by loud. Not quiet. So you can honestly tell me you can get adequate gain on your amp and even not hear the acoustics of your guitar when the volume is low? You both must have an amp made by God himself.

Oh I do his name is LEO FENDER..


I also think that we are talking about two different low volumes here, I mean so loud you can hear the acoustics on a electric are pretty quiet. I mean low enough to where you are not blasting everybody but you can hear it well is fine. Also some amps have a drastic jump from barely no volume to loud with no in between so this could effect too, but I dont think most people play an electric where you can hear the notes on the guitar louder then the amp kinda pointless..

Practice to me means learning things such as theory, technique, and other things that make somebody a better guitar player.

Gain doesn't make a better guitar player. It is simply an effect that complements certain styles of music.

So are you saying that people that play clean aren't good players?

I love to crank the gain as much as the next guy. But I know the difference between cranking it and becoming better. Practice is for getting better as a player, whether clean or distorted.

I have a task for you: play the A Major scale distorted. Then play the same scale clean. Same notes, right? Now play as many major and minor chords within that key as you can, while distorted. Now try it clean. Same chords, right? You also finger them the same, right? So technique is the same.

Try it. Let me know how it goes.

Many professional players actually recommend practicing with an acoustic. This is for several reasons. One big reason is that you spend more time practicing and less time fiddling around with knobs and pedals.

I agree and I love to practice at a volume just below ears ringing. The problem for most people is they can't play loud any time they want to. I don't like headphones and would rather play acoustic at that point. If you are in a position to play as loud as you want whenver you want to practice then you should consider yourself fortunate and rock out.

Practice to me means learning things such as theory, technique, and other things that make somebody a better guitar player.

Gain doesn't make a better guitar player. It is simply an effect that complements certain styles of music.

So are you saying that people that play clean aren't good players?

I love to crank the gain as much as the next guy. But I know the difference between cranking it and becoming better. Practice is for getting better as a player, whether clean or distorted.

+1 plus you can always have the volume low and hit a pedal for gain. I actually like clean for most of my stuff sounds so good, but its fun to rock out. Usually when I play something and say now that was beautiful it is clean though..

"Start playing loud when you're young, and you'll be one step ahead of the game. If you start off playing soft, it will get you into a lot of bad habits. Terrible, terrible, habits. Look at these jazz people. Of course they play soft. It's a trick so you can't hear them." --Nigel Tufnel

"Start playing loud when you're young, and you'll be one step ahead of the game. If you start off playing soft, it will get you into a lot of bad habits. Terrible, terrible, habits. Look at these jazz people. Of course they play soft. It's a trick so you can't hear them." --Nigel Tufnel

Great quote.

Great quote.

Hence why it is from a fictional movie. I'm not trying to be a dick, but read my previous post. Send me a PM if you want.

Granted I'm a novice, but I don't see any need to crank my amp while practicing. I do like using headphones though, it means I can hear the tone from my amp pretty well without having to turn it up very far. At this point my playing is fairly "clean" ...though my technique sure isn't clean!

The two senses I value the most are my sight and my hearing. To each their own but I am not willing to put tone above my hearing through constant high volume whether by amp speakers or headphones. Having said this most of my playing takes place in close proximity of family and next door neighbours and I need to consider their rights to quiet enjoyment of their living space.

Are you somewhat of a bodybuilder? Can you show me a thing or two in the gym? How loud do you play in an elevator?

I do think it's important to learn control at high volume, so, at least in that respect, the OP has a point.

Simply not practising because you can't crank the amp will, however, have a far more detrimental effect on your playing than doing so quietly.

I agree to the extent that if you aren't playing loud enough to hear mistakes, it is beneficial to turn it up. I played for years with my electric unplugged...didn't like to play acoustic, and playing at loud volumes wasn't an option. Being able to play louder makes you notice some of the subtleties of your playing that you may otherwise have missed out on.

Let me clarify what I mean by loud. Not quiet. So you can honestly tell me you can get adequate gain on your amp and even not hear the acoustics of your guitar when the volume is low? You both must have an amp made by God himself.

How will I know when I have adequate gain? The amp I bought has a knob labeled "gain" but it seems to have a range of settings and none of the settings say "adequate". Is there a chart of something so I will know? I don't want my playing to be inadequate.

This is kind of a silly post and I hope the younger members don't take it seriously.

I wish I had played a lot quieter when I was younger. I have substantial hearing loss now.

Yes,your ears don't grow back. After lots of time around big, loud amps, I have a significant loss in hearing between 1.5 and 2 K. Anyway, now I get my jollies by cranking up my Egnater Rebel 20 set at 1 watt output and get all the crunch, grind ,shimmer and gristle I need!

Don't condensend me man!

Well i actually have a friend who had practiced electric guitar for the past few years without plugging in and we got together to play in a band.

Problem is he was focused on the "rhythm" and didn't realise he was hitting all these duff notes. I have spent the past year convincing him to at least plug in to something so he can tidy up the random notes/strings he was clipping......

Now when it comes to rhythm he KILLS me so it's not a put down (he actually has taught me so much, but that one thing really surprised me), but I would agree with the OP from that perspective.

Not to mention I am fortunate to be able to practice at moderate to loudish volume very regularly. A lot of fun!

Can you hear me now?

At home I practice on either a resonator or an unplugged tele most of the time.
Thusly it hasn't yet affected my gigging life. Occasionally when I do plug in at home it's into a blues jr on 3. Definitely NOT my normal gig volume. I don't know. I kinda get where you're coming from but I don't think that practicing at gig level is an absolute necessity unless your starting to tour in venues larger than 3000 seat capacity. At that point yeah, you should do a week or two of full band rehearsals with a sound guy at volume.

I went through a phase of cranking amps (usually other peoples:rolleyes:) and you do need more care,
a guitar becomes a microphone for every unintentional knock and brush of a string.

Great for rock practice you need to know how you get feedsback and get control of it somehow.

BUT the guitar isn't just a bandsaw. All them dials and buttons on an amplifier can do more than distortion and volume.
ROCK vs JAZZ
Youth vs Wisdom "Use Hearing protection in at least one ear"

Rock on :cool:

I never practice on an electric plugged in. NEVER. Been doin' it for 45 years.
Rehearsing, yes. Practicing. no. Practicing is push-ups. Motor skils. Muscle memory. Rehearsing is a scrimmage. Gig is the big game.:grin:

Let me know when the ringing in your ears stops. Oh that's right, it doesn't!
One day you will be sorry.

Well like anything there's a median. It really helps to crank up the gain because it exposes flaws in your playing, but not for all your practice time:

A case in point: My thread on string bending a few weeks ago. I had been playing acoustic and clean electric blues that I didnt realize that my muting needed work on big bends. Now its all cleaned up, thanks to TDPRI.

Another case in point: Dynamics. The dynamics/flaws of funk style strumming aren't as evident unplugged as when its reasonably loud. Ditto for fingerstyle. On an acoustic two finger pops may sound consistent, but plugged in, they can sound very different.

Conclusion: Practice acoustic/low volume for the vast majority of your weekly practice...but repeat what you've learned under some juice at discretion.

4) Most importantly, trying to be "quiet" has devastating effects on your playing mechanics.

Your post has so many flaws in it that I'm only going to address this one, which seems to me to be the silliest of the lot.

What are these 'devastating' effects that result in playing quieter? Actual physical maladies along the lines of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome? Lack of sustain?

Playing quieter, and this goes for playing louder, is an effect that is used to suit the song. I've played through 100 watt Marshalls wide open, and yes, there is a certain skill required to control the guitar and amp.

I've also played Bluegrass gigs before, and believe me buddy, you better get your volumes sorted out between rhythm and leads or you're never gonna hear yourself pick those notes after chopping away at a hard driving rhythm. ESPECIALLY if you're standing in front of a mic, without the aid of a pickup on your guitar.

I practice on acoustic, unplugged Telecaster, and plugged in sometimes depending what I'm trying to do. For certain exercises, playing as cleanly and quietly as possible is the best way to go.

Wow great original post, thread starter.

Really? Your not kidding?

Reasons I feel it could hurt you or impressionable others who read your post.
-Your gonna go deaf man. I'm 25 and I'm already hard of hearing from irresponsible youthful aural bad habits. And thats BEFORE I picked up the guitar. All those stage work and because I sit and practice with my home amp facing my left ear, even at neighbour friendly volume, after what 9 years of playing, my left ear is clearly - pardon the pun - harder of hearing then the right. The right ear is not very sharp as well. At 25 and I find myself cupping my ears too often.

-If you practice unplugged and spend your focus on how your notes sound acoustically, on electric or acoustic, you can hear your faffs, which gain and compression, aka volume at stage level, can cover. Thats fine if your playing rocka n' rolla in a dive and having all that rawk spirit, but if your recording or actually want to be taken seriously...

-Playing quiet gives you a whole world of dynamics most guitar players will never reach. If you play Scandinavian Death Metal no problem its not your focus, but if your a blues guy and only know how to dig in and only dig in, because its all about blues 'power', you will never be like your heroes. *SRV cough SRV*
You will also never realize that when you open up a amp, like the way you described, you could amaze audiences, or at least the guitargeeks, when all you need to do is ride the volume knob or alter your pickhand dynamics. No pedals. THATS how an amp should sound.

However contrary to what I've said, players should learn how to handle a stage volume amp. The playing of a raging beast is different then while your at home. But do that everyday while you practice? You got the cash to fully soundproof your room, sure. I guess if you could open the taps on a amp, means you could afford a study front line amp, means you could cover your room in eggshells. So I guess, yeah if you can, why not practice as loud as you want all day all year long?

Lastly, huh? Electric's acoustic sounds messes with your head, while plugged in? I think my head's too messed up as it is to be able to be messed with anymore.

I've learned to ALWAYS practice in either of these ways:
A) with high amp volume
B) with headphones (and high volume)

The reasons for this are many:
1) Most amps don't have good tone at low volume, especially in the gain area.I don't know why you have to have stage level tone when practicing. I just don't see what this accomplishes.
2) You don't want to hear your guitar acoustically over the amp because this messes with your head.Just silly
3) You want to practice at the same level you perform at.That would shake pictures off the walls
4) Most importantly, trying to be "quiet" has devastating effects on your playing mechanics.

You can turn the volume completely off on the amp and play identically to the way you play with the amp on full volume, unless you are reallying on effects driven by the amp.

Uhhhh sometimes you just can't play loud. Why would you want to practice a new technique really loud? So everyone can hear missed notes while you work?

I never practice on an electric plugged in. NEVER. Been doin' it for 45 years.
Rehearsing, yes. Practicing. no. Practicing is push-ups. Motor skils. Muscle memory. Rehearsing is a scrimmage. Gig is the big game.:grin:

Same here....except it's only been 42 years for me.



Jeff Beck does much of his 'practicing' unplugged as well, apparently. It hasn't devastated his playing dynamics very much, from what I can tell.

I have a Stratacoustic, set up the same as my electric. I usually work out everything on it before I try it plugged in. For me trying to learn something correctly at high gain is impossible. Once I get the mechanics down I am able to play it at any volume. I also play mellow jazz about half the time so high gain is not a real big factor in my playing anyway.

Wow.... did this thread ever turn into a bunch of gnashing and stomping!

But I think I get the intent of the OP's guide.
There is a real difference in the range of sounds you make and hear when you're playing unplugged or quietly amped... vs the stage volume... and you need to be comfortable with the attack that you employ to create the amplified sounds you're choosing when you perform. You can practice quiet and benefit from it, but you won't be able to work with the same tone and the responses you'll get at volume. Most of us have favorite Tele sounds that we've come to love, based on them being produced loud. To learn to mimic those sounds you gotta be able to work with them at volume.
I think the OP was just driving mostly at the concept that practicing the dynamics that really relate to what creates your sound at volume is very different- and that the difference need to be grasped comfortably.
There is some real truth to that... I M H O.

I sort of see what the op is saying. It does take some practice to learn to play electric guitar at volume, it's different when you turn it up some.

But my guess is that few people could practice at home at actual gig volume. I know I can't. And won't.

Like Fezz Parka, I mostly practice without an amp. And years ago when I did practice at home with an amp, I never wanted distortion or overdrive. I've never understood the need for it when practicing alone because at gig/full band rehearsal volume all the dynamics are totally different anyway. None of the settings used at home will work on stage, and it feels entirely different.

Hi, Over the years I have always Practice at low volumes manly to get the timing right and then rehearse at a moderate volume to try effects if needed and yes I have lost some hearing over the years and remember gigs come in all sizes some need more volume than others so why risk losing your hearing practising or rehearsing at high volumes.

Gain? Mine is never above 1 or 2. I, and many others, like clean sounds. You don't need a ton of volume to get that. I also agree with the poster that spoke of acoustic groups. I also played in a bluegrass band for a number of years, and in a couple other acoustic groups. Then your tone and volume is only controlled by picking a little harder and moving nearer the mic and backing away between solos and fills.

Besides, after 50 plus years of loud amps at gigs and practices my hearing is not nearly as good as it could be. Wish I had used some hearing protection during those years. It is hard for me to understand normal conversation in a group or with background sounds.

Technique = unplugged

Transcription = headphones (no one wants to hear the same damn 3 second of whatever song 15 times in row!)

Rehearsal/Songwriting = plugged in

That's me, at any rate.

I never practice on an electric plugged in. NEVER. Been doin' it for 45 years.
Rehearsing, yes. Practicing. no. Practicing is push-ups. Motor skils. Muscle memory. Rehearsing is a scrimmage. Gig is the big game.:grin:

+1 fezz I actually do the exact same thing..

Although probably well intentioned, the dogmatic tone of the OP and the defensiveness of his replies has probably set some people off. Perhaps "IMO" or "my 2 cents" at the end would have taken the preachiness and know-it-all edge off. Or posting it as a question or poll to start a dialogue. Not everybody lives in a place where they can practice at volume. So practicing at low volume is better than not practicing at all. Playing with headphones can seriously damage your hearing. Please be careful if you play with headphones, you don't realize what you've lost until it's gone.

Like Durtdog, I kind of see the OP's point but I call shenanigans on the reasons given. Normally if I don't agree with someone I let it go, but I don't want others to read the advice given and take it as gospel, especially since it could be harmful to one's hearing.

1) Most amps don't have good tone at low volume, especially in the gain area.
If you need gain then there are options: master volume knobs, pedals, modelling amps, etc
2) You don't want to hear your guitar acoustically over the amp because this messes with your head.
No, it doesn't mess with your head, it just doesn't sound very good.
3) You want to practice at the same level you perform at.
Not always possible, see above.
4) Most importantly, trying to be "quiet" has devastating effects on your playing mechanics.
Tell that to Wes Montgomery, he practiced late at night, playing with his thumb so that he wouldn't keep his family awake.

Now, as a counterpoint to the Wes Montgomery example and in an attempt to be fair and not gang up on the OP, here's a quote from another great guitarist, Jerry Garcia:

To work on picking dynamics, plug into a practice amp and turn your guitar all the way up. Then play arpeggios—very quietly at the beginning, and then gradually louder by adjusting your touch. The goal is to vary your dynamics, but not change the position of your hands. Many guitarists change the way they hold their hands when changing dynamics. As a result, they end up with a ‘light-touch’ group of licks—the very fast stuff—but they don’t develop any power. What you want to achieve is continually making those conversions back and forth from quiet to loud picking.” —Jerry Garcia

Jerry Garcia by the way was a real guitarist in a real band...

Horrible post.

1. Practicing with a loud or distorted tone tends to mask bad technique.

2. The best live bar bands always play at a reasonable volume so as the vocals and lyrics are audible. This is especially important if you play original music.

3. Seriously ear damage is a huge concern. It affects thousands upon thousands of lesser guitarists and plenty of famous ones as well.

4. Playing loud elimates any dynamic range you may have. Dynamics add dimension to playing and are often very important for giving you an individual style.

5. With todays amps playing loud is no longer necessary to acheive certain sonic tricks. Attenuators, master volumes, a multitude of effects pedals and low watt amps allow you to get anything you can get by playing at ear shattering volume.

Hey I love to move air as much as the next guy but realize that if I do among others or in front of others I'm pretty much just being a jerk.

Not sure what happened to TDPRI. I never used to see shady posts like this even as recently as a year ago. So I have a strong opinion but, even if I am wrong, I don't see why some have gotten personal. Anyway, I'm discontinuing my posts on this thread.

RB, don't back away. If it is what works for you, roll with it. If I somehow came off as antagonistic, I apologize. Hang in there dude. It's your tree, swing the way you like to swing.:grin:

Not sure what happened to TDPRI. I never used to see shady posts like this even as recently as a year ago. So I have a strong opinion but, even if I am wrong, I don't see why some have gotten personal. Anyway, I'm discontinuing my posts on this thread.

Nobody got personal it was you that got offended if somebody didnt agree with you. Everybody has opinions and thats ok but a few of your posts have seemed like if somebody didnt agree with you then you thought they didnt know what they were talking about. I wouldnt blame the TDPRI for that but maybe look at the way you say things so you dont look like you are talking down at people. I think somebody said it right when they said a poll might have been better or maybe a more helpful approach. If you get upset everytime somebody doesnt agree with you here you wont last long...

Musically - the bottom line is dynamics - theres no loud without soft or quiet - and theres no control over dynamic without practicing your attack - and has many have said , you dont always need an amp to do that.

Physically the bottom line is your health - theres loud and then there's peircingly loud. Check with those (including me) who hit 45 and found out how much all of those loud gigs have punished your ears - AND - the rub is that if your ears start going - your dynamics are likely to follow.

2) You don't want to hear your guitar acoustically over the amp because this messes with your head.

:confused:


4) Most importantly, trying to be "quiet" has devastating effects on your playing mechanics.

Then why not play unplugged and have at it?? If I'm practicing at night I play unplugged electrics - nobody gets woken up and I can work on fingerings, co-ordination, you-name-it.

practice ? was I supposed to practice ??

I think the OP is perhaps refering to the difference in overall sound when the amp is played through at low levels V performance level. There is a big difference in tone between the two.If you want to know what you rig sounds like at performance level that is what it has to be at,once you have your EQ determined and your FX adjusted you can then "practice" at low levels although the overall tone may not sound as you require.Back when I first used a compressor I set it to sound as I wanted it while practicing low volume at home,disaster struck when I stomped on it on stage and the natural compression from the amp added to the compressor setting and muted the notes I was playing.

I think the OP is perhaps refering to the difference in overall sound when the amp is played through at low levels V performance level. There is a big difference in tone between the two.If you want to know what you rig sounds like at performance level that is what it has to be at,once you have your EQ determined and your FX adjusted you can then "practice" at low levels although the overall tone may not sound as you require.Back when I first used a compressor I set it to sound as I wanted it while practicing low volume at home,disaster struck when I stomped on it on stage and the natural compression from the amp added to the compressor setting and muted the notes I was playing.

To me, amps sound totally different in different size rooms. For example, in my bedroom or living room apartment, I really like the sound of my Blues Jr. However, when I have taken it to open mic nights where your on a patio deck or big open room, I get a darker, muddier tone.

Loud enough to hear the nuances of technique and style, quiet enough to protect one's ears and keep the public peace. That leaves a very wide range of volume at which to play safely.

I agree with a previous poster that too much gain/distortion/whatever can mask technique issues and blur note articulation, at any volume. Acoustic (electric or acoustic) practice can refine note articulation.

Peace, Mike.

It simple really. If you don't sound good unplugged. Please don't plug it in EVER !

Precision and clean playing IMO only comes about from acoustic/unplugged playing. Now if I could only play with precision...:lol:

For what it's worth, unless I'm trying to practice some technique that "requires" high volume, I practice either at very low volume or acoustically. Who cares if you can hear your guitar acoustically even when the amp is going? I can't see that it messes with my head any.

Typically my amp is loud only when I'm goofing off. I don't need to damage my hearing any more than I already have.

Transcription = headphones (no one wants to hear the same damn 3 second of whatever song 15 times in row!)

I should really take this to heart. My non musical wife has questioned rhetorically the need to play some song or lick endlessly. :oops:

I didn't really want to post in this thread, it's enough of a train wreck! But I guess I just can't resist in tossing in my two cents (flat, of course).

I've been playing the electric guitar for, oh, 37 years, and I've found practicing quietly and cleanly forces me to get my technique right. A clean tone gives you nowhere to hide! The nuances of tempo, phrasing and pick attack are all out there to really hear. It's easy to lose a lot of that detail with a loud and distorted tone...

Tim

Just to add another observation...

In my experience, a sound that works well at home, at a band rehearsal or even at the soundcheck before a gig doesn't necessarily work the same when you are actually playing the gig. The room acoustics, the other instruments and even the number and position of people in the room will have an effect on the way your 'sound' feels and behaves.
There is no practicing setup/rule that will prepare you for what your guitar and amp will be like to play in every venue/situation.

This may be why particular songs will 'gel' when a band plays them in one venue but are a struggle the next gig somewhere else.



I'll stick to my unplugged home practicing, and leave my amplified 'practicing' to band practices and gigs.

eGDBR2L5kzI

eGDBR2L5kzI

bwahahahahahahahah!!!!!

What was that thing we were talking about?

This is kind of a silly post and I hope the younger members don't take it seriously.

+1

5rz2jRHA9fo

I rarely even plug in when I'm practicing at home. In fact i wouldn't even call it practicing. I just sort of noodle in front of the TV most of the time. Occasionally I will sit down to seriously figure out lick or a part but mostly I'm just noodling.

eGDBR2L5kzI

AHHHH I literally JUST thought of that and saw this post

So I will merely "+1" it :mrgreen: Great minds think alike

Is this another Bodybuilder/Elevator thread?!?!?

Oh no....

5rz2jRHA9fo

Thanks fezz, I really needed that :razz:

The truth hurts, ain't it?

5rz2jRHA9fo

^^^^^^^^^
Very well put!

I feel that the premise of this thread is flawed but not totally without merit.

Not many of us would want to play through amps that are limited to the output of personal radios, drive cars restricted to a maximum speed of 70mph or buy guns only good for plinking...all the associated dangers are made pretty clear in the included product literature anyway.

The rest is, and should always be, down to personal responsibility.

Is this another Bodybuilder/Elevator thread?!?!?

Oh no....

Hey I didnt bring it up this time you did buddy.... :razz:

5rz2jRHA9fo

My favorite video of all time! He's DEAD ON IT.

5rz2jRHA9fo


How did we get here?


But I do love this...

Then there's this goober:
uquTrVV-JOQ

I agree and I love to practice at a volume just below ears ringing.
Please consider having your hearing tested. You almost certainly already have substantial hearing damage. A test will show you the amount of damage you've already done.

If you don't already know: long exposure to anything louder than 85 dB causes hearing loss. I guarantee you that you're playing much, much louder than that - 85 dB is a lot quieter than "just below ears ringing".

The saddest thing in the world is a deaf former musician. Musicians who destroy their own hearing by playing too loud are in the same position as a high-jumper who cuts off his own feet, or a surgeon who cuts off his own hands, or a painter who plucks out his own eyes. Why in the world would any musician set out to destroy the one sense you need above all else to play music?

By the way, along with going deaf and being unable to play music, you may actually end up never hearing silence inside your own head again. Too much exposure to loud noises will usually cause tinnitis - ringing and other noises in the ear. Extreme cases of tinnitus sound like a jet plane taking off inside your ear - round the clock.

-Gnobuddy

1. Practicing with a loud or distorted tone tends to mask bad technique.

2. The best live bar bands always play at a reasonable volume so as the vocals and lyrics are audible. This is especially important if you play original music.

3. Seriously ear damage is a huge concern. It affects thousands upon thousands of lesser guitarists and plenty of famous ones as well.

4. Playing loud elimates any dynamic range you may have. Dynamics add dimension to playing and are often very important for giving you an individual style.

5. With todays amps playing loud is no longer necessary to acheive certain sonic tricks. Attenuators, master volumes, a multitude of effects pedals and low watt amps allow you to get anything you can get by playing at ear shattering volume.

Hey I love to move air as much as the next guy but realize that if I do among others or in front of others I'm pretty much just being a jerk.
Great post. Succinct, comprehensive, and accurate!

-Gnobuddy

I haven't played with a band for a few years but when we rehearsed it was mainly to sort the vocals, try getting 4 part harmonies right with the amps cranked to 11.

The electric guitar and bass generally sat below the acoustics in the rehearsal room.

I've learned to ALWAYS practice in either of these ways:
A) with high amp volume
B) with headphones (and high volume)

The reasons for this are many:
1) Most amps don't have good tone at low volume, especially in the gain area.
2) You don't want to hear your guitar acoustically over the amp because this messes with your head.
3) You want to practice at the same level you perform at.
4) Most importantly, trying to be "quiet" has devastating effects on your playing mechanics.

Headphones and high volume = hearing loss and trouble!

=-( PJ

My take on this topic is, practice quiet when learning music theory, chord memory, scales etc. After you are proficient at what you wanted to learn then you need to do it a bit at performance volume to be able to control amp dynamics, performance dynamics, proper damping control at volume. Flailing away at high volume will not make you a better player, trust me, I lost years of valuable practice time being seduced by the gain monster, he's a pusher, your local drug dealer waiting for you at every practice session. Until you know your lesson cold you don't need volume. When you do know it, the experience can be sublime. Now some may disagree but I must point out that we have all stated that we play our amps as much as we play our guitars.

You guys have to Practice to get better at guitar?Amatures!

Man, this thread got derailed for the OP real quick, didn't it?

Brutally so...

There are many things you can ONLY learn with an amp cranked. When you're close to a loud amp... the amp becomes 1/2 of the instrument. Keeping 5 strings silent while your getting the 6th to scream ain't easy... think Gilmour. I learn all my stuff in a chair... with no amp... but to get it right... in go the earplugs... and up goes the decibels.

Some of us don't play those styles of music, and should follow their own advice and be quiet. We should all have proper ear protection... musicians earplugs... and they don't cost that much.

There are many things you can ONLY learn with an amp cranked. When you're close to a loud amp... the amp becomes 1/2 of the instrument. Keeping 5 strings silent while your getting the 6th to scream ain't easy

True enough but as I and others mentioned previously - you don't need to do it all the time. For me, I only to 'crank it' for a few rehearsals before I go out and do gigs that are gonna actually be in BIG venues.

I also think it has to do with how much experience you have. I 'came up' in the late 70's and early 80's (as far as cutting my teeth in rock bands goes). Nothing less than a 50 watt 1/2 stack or a Twin. I'm used to it. I don't need to learn it again.
*And I do wear at least one ear plug (Etymotic).

True enough but as I and others mentioned previously - you don't need to do it all the time. For me, I only to 'crank it' for a few rehearsals before I go out and do gigs that are gonna actually be in BIG venues.

I also think it has to do with how much experience you have. I 'came up' in the late 70's and early 80's (as far as cutting my teeth in rock bands goes). Nothing less than a 50 watt 1/2 stack or a Twin. I'm used to it. I don't need to learn it again.
*And I do wear at least one ear plug (Etymotic).

Ditto, Ken. I've done it so much that I know what the amps gonna do.

Shhhhhhh.

Half the time when i practice, I'm not even plugged in. I never practice at gig levels, its too loud. I dont really care about *TON3*while I'm practicing. If I'm working with a new pedal or something like that, sure, I'll turn it up; but mostly, I work at a low volume and concentrate on my playing, not the amp.

Ditto, Ken. I've done it so much that I know what the amps gonna do.

Same here.
And as I said before....how an amp behaves in a small room cranked up won't necessarily be the same as it will at a gig venue with the rest of the band anyway. You're still going to have to adapt to the situation as it happens, same as us quiet practicing folk.

...


Look, buddy. I'm a fingerstyle guitarist so don't condescend to me by saying I may not know how to play quietly.

So you can honestly tell me you can get adequate gain on your amp and even not hear the acoustics of your guitar when the volume is low? You both must have an amp made by God himself.

Not sure what happened to TDPRI. I never used to see shady posts like this even as recently as a year ago. So I have a strong opinion but, even if I am wrong, I don't see why some have gotten personal. Anyway, I'm discontinuing my posts on this thread. Gee.... I'm glad the OP did not let things get "personal" :wink: Guess he took his marbles and went home :mrgreen:

5rz2jRHA9fo

Sounds like a bad teacher to me...bitter and negative.

Not at all. He's just telling the truth. I've seen him 'clinic' and teach and he's very positive and effective as well really funny and enlightening. But it's true ... most students think they're 'the *****' (because most - not all of course - parents from the mid 70's onward thought/think their kid is Horowitz just because he or she can play 'music box dancer', 'dust in the wind' or the theme from 'Cats'. Most don't want to do the real work and hear the real truth. Somebody needs to say it. I'm glad that's up on the 'tube for God and the world to see.
And it applies to a lot more than just music.

Sounds like a bad teacher to me...bitter and negative.

I disagree. Branford is a well known a-hole, but his assessment of most students (and society as a whole) is right on. Instant gratification. Unwillingness to get to know the instrument as they should by doing the work. Kinda like this silly thread.

If you know how to mute unplugged, you will most certainly be able to mute when amplified. The work (technique) comes from practicing clean, warts and all. Practicing is Absorbine Junior. Gets rid of the warts. Practicing away from a band situation at full volume with all your gizmos blaring away hides the warts. It's make-up. The wart is still underneath all of that. Not to mention what it can do to your hearing. If I was a painter, I wouldn't look at the sun for even a second, let alone for an hour. Save your ears by wearing protection and saving the volume for when it matters: the gig.

I think he is just being honest, and what good is a teacher if he is not gonna tell you what you are doing wrong and how to improve on that. If all you wanna hear is how great you are that is not gonna help your skill overall. No matter how advanced a player is you can always learn something to improve your skill. Imagine if you had a teacher at school who gave you 100% on every test even if you got the answer wrong. You wouldnt learn anything at all, same goes to music and teacing music. If someone tells you your doing something wrong you are gonna go back and try to fix it. If you never knew you were doing something wrong you wont try to fix it.....

As I said in another thread, we learn until we're dead. Then it starts all over again. I hope...:lol:

We have the technology to get tone at any volume. If YOU can't play it properly quietly, don't expect ME to listen to you play it loudly.

I'm right on with what Branford said. I remember when I fist saw it a few years ago. I wish I could play that vid in my band class. He is really explaining society as a whole now.

I call it the little league syndrome. Your team comes in dead last at a tournament and you are told how well you did and get a trophy. What parents don't understand is kids then grow up thinking everything they do is great, even if it sucks. Then they never learn what it is to work for something because they never had to. Some get over it and learn. Others fail out the first year in college. Others find out at their first real job.

Sorry to derail for a second.

You're right in many ways, Sharp5. So many people now, including so-called adults, acted like spoiled kids if you deny them anything, or question what they're doing. I'm teaching music tech related topics, and luckily I don't run into the same unpleasantness that regular teachers I know experience daily.

just to add my 2 cents:
when I'm practicing I am almost never plugged in.
Every once in a while I crank the amp up and blow...but never as part of my routine.
When on the gig even though I am invoking the Rock and Roll Gods...to me personally it's just so much industrial noise, and I love playing in a band.

The Louder-The Better. "If its too loud then you're too old".

I'm glad Mindlobster (not that it's happening to you) to see that it is happening on the other side of the pond as well. For a while I thought it was just America digging its grave. Wait a minute, I guess that means the whole world sucks. :mrgreen:

By the way, I am holding out that it wasn't the OP's intent to come out the way his posts came across to most, and just got lost in translation. I mean, I read the fist post and thought this guy can't be serious or mean it that way. YMMV and all that stuff.

5rz2jRHA9fo

Here is how a music teacher should act

YoHRx_YP6JE

Sharp5, I always considered myself quite an immature person, it just goes with the music/art territory; but the so-called 'regular' types seem worse than the musicians now...and people blow up so fast...I guess like they do on some forums! That's why I like TDPRI, I don't wanna wade through that junk.

BTW, fezz, that Marsalis clip is perfect. A few teaching buds of mine are going to be seeing that.

The Louder-The Better. "If its too loud then you're too old".

This is an obnoxious bigoted statement.
As it's in quotes I assume someone other than you said it.
Repeating it shows no class and is not funny.
And if you don't like what I have to say...please press F1, F2, F3, F4

Colt that's great!

This is an obnoxious bigoted statement.
As it's in quotes I assume someone other than you said it.
Repeating it shows no class and is not funny.
And if you don't like what I have to say...please press F1, F2, F3, F4

It's an old line...it's supposed to be 'amusing' or maybe even 'funny', and it's good for that. It's not meant to be a lifestyle statement. Your hearing is more important than any benefit you might get from blasting your ears in the pursuit of technique. I know that sounds boring, but it's true. And most 'rock stars' who use that line are probably wearing earplugs anyway.

Colt that's great!

Yeah, I thought it was pretty amusing.

Chet would probably have to beat me to death before I played up to his standards.

This is an obnoxious bigoted statement.
As it's in quotes I assume someone other than you said it.
Repeating it shows no class and is not funny.
And if you don't like what I have to say...please press F1, F2, F3, F4

well we got the whine where is the cheese :mrgreen:

I never practice on an electric plugged in. NEVER. Been doin' it for 45 years.
Rehearsing, yes. Practicing. no. Practicing is push-ups. Motor skils. Muscle memory. Rehearsing is a scrimmage. Gig is the big game.:grin:

+1 and well said! :wink:

Branford is a well known a-hole, but his assessment of most students (and society as a whole) is right on.

My work puts me in contact with a lot of young adults who're supposedly getting a college education. It is positively terrifying to find out how little most of them know about anything. Do you laugh or cry when twelve students in a class of thirty measure the thickness of a pencil (thickness, not length) with a machinists ruler and come back and tell you that it measures four inches thick? How about when a student, asked to add 2200 and 1100, comes up with 22001100 as the answer? How about discovering that 25 students in a class of 30 have not the faintest idea what ten percent of one hundred dollars amounts to?

Believe it or not, all those things actually happened at my workplace. And many more equally appalling things happen routinely in our educations of higher learning, which are now educations of little to no learning.

Unwillingness to get to know the instrument as they should by doing the work.
I agree on the unwillingness to do any work at all. But it goes beyond that - I actually think a significant percentage of our young people are actually physically incapable of focussing on anything long enough to understand it deeply. When your attention span is eight seconds long, you can only understand ideas that are shallow enough to grasp in eight seconds.

That's long enough to figure out which button you push on your cellphone to turn it on, but not long enough to understand anything of real substance. You can't understand music theory in eight seconds, or calculus, or how to write a decent paragraph, or how to calculate what 10% interest on your $1000 credit card balance is going to cost you.

-Gnobuddy

My work puts me in contact with a lot of young adults who're supposedly getting a college education. It is positively terrifying to find out how little most of them know about anything. Do you laugh or cry when twelve students in a class of thirty measure the thickness of a pencil (thickness, not length) with a machinists ruler and come back and tell you that it measures four inches thick? How about when a student, asked to add 2200 and 1100, comes up with 22001100 as the answer? How about discovering that 25 students in a class of 30 have not the faintest idea what ten percent of one hundred dollars amounts to?

Believe it or not, all those things actually happened at my workplace. And many more equally appalling things happen routinely in our educations of higher learning, which are now educations of little to no learning.

I agree on the unwillingness to do any work at all. But it goes beyond that - I actually think a significant percentage of our young people are actually physically incapable of focussing on anything long enough to understand it deeply. When your attention span is eight seconds long, you can only understand ideas that are shallow enough to grasp in eight seconds.

That's long enough to figure out which button you push on your cellphone to turn it on, but not long enough to understand anything of real substance. You can't understand music theory in eight seconds, or calculus, or how to write a decent paragraph, or how to calculate what 10% interest on your $1000 credit card balance is going to cost you.

-Gnobuddy

I completely disagree. Your sample size must be very small or come from a narrow selection.

I work in sales. This afternoon I spent 6 hours negotiating a deal. The geezers would have given up at the 2 hour mark.

I could say quite a bit about older folks, but I understand their weaknesses and learn to live with them. Instead I choose to learn from their vast wisdom....and then outwork them.

Quit generalizing..... get off my lawn. :wink:

I agree with Branford.

I had a friend in the 80's who played in a R&B band. He was one of the best players in the local area: funk, jazz, blues & rock. I asked him if he would give me lessons. His reply,"Do you just want to learn the tricks & licks or do you want to learn to play guitar?". I answered with the latter & he agreed. 2 years, 2 one hour sessions a week. He was an intimidating tyrant, I got praise only when I deserved it. Several times I was threatened that my fingers might get broken.

I had an Ibanez jazz box & he had a Gibson ES-175. At practice we either didn't plug in at all or we played at room level with no effects except reverb. He taught me how to use lots of chord patterns, how to PLAY IN TIME, how to back someone up, to play through my mistakes & generally how to be a professional.

I learned alot but, he never got around to showing me the tricks & licks. Go figure.

I like being able to hear.
I practice with an unplugged electric guitar. If it don't sound good naked it won't sound good with clothes on. I have no trouble working with a cranked amplifier on the gig either.

I was sort of out of music for a few years and not gigging.
I only played my electrics without plugging them in.
Then I got serious again and did a lot of practicing without plugging in.
When I finally started getting out to jams, etc. again, I realized I had forgotten how to play ELECTRIC guitar.
I was clumsy with the controls, my bends were slightly out of tune and, worst of all, I had forgotten how to mute in order to stop extraneous string noises...especially all the strings I was pushing against while bending.
It didn't take a terribly long time to get it back, but it did take time.
I don't know about practicing LOUD, but I think if you are going to play electric guitar, it pays to practice electric guitar.
As for Jeff Beck practicing without an amp...when you're Jeff Beck , the rules are different.

I completely disagree. Your sample size must be very small or come from a narrow selection.
There are roughly twenty-five thousand students at my workplace (a typical junior college) during any given quarter, and I've come into personal contact with roughly two thousand of them during the past decade, roughly two hundred a year. Not a small sample by any sane standard.

A national survey of tens of thousands of college students done a few years ago found that 50% of four-year college students in the USA were functionally illiterate. That number jumped to 75% of two-year college students in the USA. Functional literacy was based on the ability to successfully complete three tasks: summarize a newspaper editorial in a paragraph, use a bus time-table to plan a trip from point A to point B, and interpret a table of exercise duration and intensity versus heart rate.

The institution I work at has several thousands of entering students take a placement test each year. Currently, internal statistics show that 80% of entering freshmen are functionally illiterate.

Quit generalizing..... get off my lawn. :wink:
Sure thing. Right away. Now, can you find your way off my lawn without a GPS to tell you which way to go? :twisted: :mrgreen:

-Gnobuddy

I don't know about practicing LOUD, but I think if you are going to play electric guitar, it pays to practice electric guitar.

I agree with you on that. My guitar technique changes depending on whether I'm playing acoustic or electric, and even depending on whether the acoustic is plugged in or not. I use a lighter touch when plugged in, for instance, and play more short notes on the acoustic, while playing more longer notes on the electric.

But, as you say, none of that requires playing at "just short of ringing ears" levels, as someone early in this thread claimed. You only need to be loud enough to hear your instrument clearly.

when you're Jeff Beck , the rules are different.
Too true. I've never been a huge fan of his music, but I'm in awe of his incredible guitar technique and completely unique sounds. I've never heard another guitarist who sounded anything like him, and on a planet with nearly seven billion humans on it, that is a pretty incredible thing.

-Gnobuddy

There are roughly twenty-five thousand students at my workplace (a typical junior college) during any given quarter, and I've come into personal contact with roughly two thousand of them during the past decade, roughly two hundred a year. Not a small sample by any sane standard.

A national survey of tens of thousands of college students done a few years ago found that 50% of four-year college students in the USA were functionally illiterate. That number jumped to 75% of two-year college students in the USA. Functional literacy was based on the ability to successfully complete three tasks: summarize a newspaper editorial in a paragraph, use a bus time-table to plan a trip from point A to point B, and interpret a table of exercise duration and intensity versus heart rate.

The institution I work at has several thousands of entering students take a placement test each year. Currently, internal statistics show that 80% of entering freshmen are functionally illiterate.

Sure thing. Right away. Now, can you find your way off my lawn without a GPS to tell you which way to go? :twisted: :mrgreen:

-Gnobuddy

Must be a California thing. Dang hippies. :twisted:

In all seriousness, you give the statistics about young folks today. Great, now do you have enough data to be able to compare those stats to previous generations?

BTW, I've driven all across the country (including major cities) without a GPS.

Also, I hope you are able to read my functionally illiterate sentences. See, I also can't read very well so I'm not really sure what exactly you meant. Don't worry though, me and my iPad get through this world just fine. :lol:

Here is how a music teacher should act

YoHRx_YP6JE
You know, I think ol' Chet's right. His student in that video really shaped up and started playing well.

I think most guitar players should have the **** slapped out of them like that.
For their own improvement, of course.

Are you somewhat of a bodybuilder? Can you show me a thing or two in the gym? How loud do you play in an elevator?

All of the posts in this thread offend me. As somewhat of a bodybuilder I enjoy to play both loudly and quietly... AT THE SAME TIME!

I play at full (or where I like it about 6) amp volume, but I play through speaker isolation cabinets. I keep the sound about at a loud TV volume. Everyone else in the house is happy too. If I ever gig again, I am gettin' ear plugs.

Branford's right all right. And you have to understand--the students he's getting have been told their whole life they were the bees knees, and at their respective high school's, they probably were.

Now they're all together and nobody's "special" anymore. The fangs come out and the men and boys are separated quickly.

As for practicing loud, well, I say it a lot around here, but I'm under the impression that most folks play too loud anyway, but you certainly need to spend at least some time practicing at "gig volume," whatever that is, to know how you will sound and how your guitar and amp react in that situation.

Mind you--when you get to that gig, it's gonna sound completely different than it did in your living room or rehearsal space!

yark14, would you care to change your last sentence to, "Don't worry though, my iPad and I get through this world just fine."?


Just sayin', even though I am just one of those 'older folks'. (63)

When I'd interview interns at MGM, I'd ask them the usual stuff and then I'd throw these at them:


How many ounces are in a cup?
How many cups are in a pint?
How many pints are in a quart?
How many quarts are in a gallon?


I'd only hire the ones who could get all four correct:wink:.

When I'd interview interns at MGM, I'd ask them the usual stuff and then I'd throw these at them:


How many ounces are in a cup?
How many cups are in a pint?
How many pints are in a quart?
How many quarts are in a gallon?


I'd only hire the ones who could get all four correct:wink:.
So you were interviewing interns for Metro Goldwyn Measures? Were they required to do a lot of cooking?

No, they were required to be intelligent. Balanced. Well rounded. To show that they were able to retain details, no matter how trivial. If they couldn't, I didn't want 'em working for me. You have to have the answers to questions when they're asked now in that business. There's no "I don't know", or "let me get back to you".

This part of the Marsalis' interview resonated with me completely:
"We live in a country that seems to be in this massive state of delusion. Where the idea of what you are is more important than you actually being that."

I seem to encounter this more all the time in daily life. No substance, just posing and lip service. I often feel like I'm at a party and I'm the only one who's not drunk or on LSD.



So kids, practice however you want, loudly or quietly. Just practice.

Let me clarify what I mean by loud. Not quiet. So you can honestly tell me you can get adequate gain on your amp and even not hear the acoustics of your guitar when the volume is low? You both must have an amp made by God himself.

yes- use an attenuator!- sounds like amp is on ten at any volume- thats what they are for

Are you somewhat of a bodybuilder? Can you show me a thing or two in the gym? How loud do you play in an elevator?

I see this in threads now and then. What the heck does it mean?!

Branford is almost dead on it - Universities and music schools generally promote 'pathways of least resistance ' policy with the vast majority of music students - which is all about 'bums on seats' . It means that notionally ,you can be a music major - and not really be able to play.
Music courses that are 'practically' impossible to fail are attractive to those who can play a few chords and see music as an easy alternative to something else.

Ha - Ken described it so well..

So BL's tirade is right on - but unfortunately it's the previous generations - parents and teachers and especially the top heavy administrations in College and University ; for whom the 'basics' of real learning, and the wisdom one attains from doing and creating something is outside of their experience.
These people are just passing the silver spoon that got handed to them in the first place.

Part of this issue about playing loud is a result of a misconception that sound is all about looking for the external source - the amplifier or the signal chain. Sure, learning to use all that is essential - learning how tone behaves at different volume levels is essential. But if you practice enough - and look after your ears, the tone comes from inside your head. And becomes part of the way your hands work.

You do have to play some gigs to figure out how the external sound behaves in different environments.
But if youve ever heard a great player pick up someone elses guitar and plug into someone elses amp? I heard Pat Metheny do that once - and it sounded just like him.

Sounds like a bad teacher to me...bitter and negative.

Nah...just sounds like a teacher!

:wink:

I see this in threads now and then. What the heck does it mean?!

We had a fellow a couple of months ago who prefaced several of his posts this way. Somewhat argumentative...

Tim

I see this in threads now and then. What the heck does it mean?!

It is from actually a serious thread a member here started a thread called elevator etiquette where he started off saying just that. Here is a link so you will know what is goin on from now on...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-cafe/251784-elevator-etiquette.html

It is from actually a serious thread a member here started a thread called elevator etiquette where he started off saying just that. Here is a link so you will know what is goin on from now on...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-cafe/251784-elevator-etiquette.html

All righty then!

Best post:

"Everything is an affront when you are a behind."

It is from actually a serious thread a member here started a thread called elevator etiquette where he started off saying just that. Here is a link so you will know what is goin on from now on...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-cafe/251784-elevator-etiquette.html

I have been wondering WTF the whole elevator/body builder thing was. I thought it was some kinda new MTV thing or something.

Nah...just sounds like a teacher!

:wink:
Is 2011 going to go down as The Year of Hateratin' on Teachers?

I have been wondering WTF the whole elevator/body builder thing was. I thought it was some kinda new MTV thing or something.

Yeah I just lucked out to have read the thread on accident when it was going on. It was actually really funny at the time but I can tottally see how it wouldnt make sense at all if you didnt know what it was from. I dont think it would be nearly as funny if it didnt come from a serious post, but the fact that he serioiusly said that makes it classic....

Must be a California thing. Dang hippies. :twisted:

You missed the bit about the NATIONAL college survey - not California, but all of the USA. Short attention span keep you from noticing? :mrgreen:

Just kidding, my friend. Seriously, I think you're taking this personally - so I'd like to make it double clear that I don't think that all young people are dysfunctional or illiterate. Of course not, that would be absurd. The facts show that not all, but a very large fraction (75% of all students at 2-year colleges in the USA, if we trust that large nationwide survey) are illiterate.

For all I know, you yourself may very well be an incredibly talented, well read, well educated genius whose intellect and knowledge would shine in any century. I am in no way trying to put you down.

For that matter, I'm not trying to put anyone else down either. I don't know why 75% of junior college students are illiterate - but whatever the reason, it doesn't mean they're bad people, it just means they're illiterate. Those are the facts, as best we know them, not emotional judgements of the worth of those people. When I lived abroad, I've known several absolutely wonderful people who were illiterate. Many third world countries are filled with illiterate people, many of them more ethical, honest, loving, and kind than the majority of educated people you find in first-world countries.

Of course, that doesn't mean the situation isn't cause for concern. Falling literacy rates should be a concern for any country, because literacy is one of the keys to the success of our species. Being able to learn from other people who live far away, or lived centuries ago, is an incredible benefit that comes with literacy. Illiterate people can only learn from the people who are in the same room with them, and that really closes down their options.

In all seriousness, you give the statistics about young folks today. Great, now do you have enough data to be able to compare those stats to previous generations?

Too many to quote, honestly. One good indication is that both two-year and four-year colleges have steadily, over the last twenty or thirty years, had to introduce more and more basic remedial courses in English and math, to accommodate the ever-increasing flood of students who had no basic skills in either subject. Go back fifty years or so and college courses started with the "100 level" courses - "math 101", "English 101", and so on. As the years went by, "200 level" courses were introduced that were remedial in nature, set at high-school level - math 200, say, or English 225. If you couldn't hack math 101, you were shunted off to math 200 to learn what you'd missed in school.

It didn't stop there. Many colleges now have "300 level" courses, which correspond to middle-school level. Students who cannot even handle 200 series courses are shunted off to the 300 level courses in the hope that they will learn what they missed in middle school.

And, believe it or not, colleges are now talking about introducing "400 level" courses, which are set at elementary school level. Not long ago I attended a meeting of my workplaces Curriculum and Instruction (C & I) committee, where various college programs introduce new courses and seek the approval of the college board. At this meeting, the math department proposed a 400 level math course, and handed out a document showing the syllabus and course content. When I read "addition, subtraction, division and multiplication with small integer numbers", I knew we were in deep, deep trouble as a country. This is first-grade level math - stuff that children should have learned at age six or seven years old!

I should probably mention that I don't want things to be this way. I don't like the current situation one bit. In fact, if someone could prove to me that I am totally wrong, I will be very relieved. But unfortunately, there is a whole lot of evidence on the other side of the ledger.

Well, this is now way off-topic, so no more from me on the subject. My best wishes to you, and let's move on!

-Gnobuddy

So this thread went from discussing some idiotic topic to lack of education and attention spans...

Looks like we ALL lack good attention spans... :D

Part of this issue about playing loud is a result of a misconception that sound is all about looking for the external source
<snip>
But if you practice enough - and look after your ears, the tone comes from inside your head. And becomes part of the way your hands work.
Now there is one of the most profound things I've read on this thread! Great post!

-Gnobuddy

So this thread went from discussing some idiotic topic to lack of education and attention spans...

Looks like we ALL lack good attention spans... :D
What? Attention? Hey, look, a squirrel!


(30 seconds later) What were we talking about again?

-Gnobuddy

Is 2011 going to go down as The Year of Hateratin' on Teachers?
Nah, that's been going on for years. Remember "Ferris Bueller's Day Off"?

-Gnobuddy

Wow what a thread ! I learned two things we all should've known. (most of us do)
1-loud playing is very bad for your hearing.
2-Stupid people are breeding at an alarming rate.

My ears ring all the time. Is it from the Marshal stack or the 23 kids screaming at me?

2-Stupid people are breeding at an alarming rate.

I'm not sure that's the explanation, but at least one filmmaker agrees with you - ever see the film "Idiocracy"?

My ears ring all the time. Is it from the Marshal stack or the 23 kids screaming at me?
Maybe it's from practicing loud with 23 Marshal stacks screaming at you! :mrgreen:

-Gnobuddy

Gnobuddy
I saw that movie. And it's TRUE !

Ironically Pete Townshend apparently believes if it don't sound good on acoustic sod it

You're kidding right???? The only thing you'll accomplish is hearing loss!! I've been playing guitar for 34 years, electric guitar for 20 years, in bands for over 15 years and my hearing is worth protecting! So is yours.

You're kidding right???? The only thing you'll accomplish is hearing loss!!
Indeed - one hundred forty three posts in this thread, and except for post #1, most of the others say more or less what you just said. :mrgreen:

I've never seen a thread do a U-turn quite so fast, and while I have nothing against the OP, I'm very glad to find out the majority of guitarists here recognize the importance of protecting their own hearing.

-Gnobuddy

Get a Champ - they sound good at any volume, mine sounds warm at 3.

Get a Champ - they sound good at any volume, mine sounds warm at 3.
I use a Super Champ XD. It's easy to play at comfortable daytime living-room levels, and has pretty good tone even at those low volumes.

But the best tone from the SCXD comes at volume levels that are a bit high for living-room use - and, thanks to a tip from Jeober on the SCXD thread here on TDPRI, there is a way to get that lovely tube tone and still keep the amp really quiet.

For these situations - night-time playing, or really quiet playing when my wife is asleep in the other room - I wired a $10 L-pad ( http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-255 ) between the amp's output and the loudspeaker. Now I can set the amps volume control to about 5 on the dial (where it has lovely tube tone), then dial back the actual sound level from the loudspeaker with the L-pad to whatever volume I want, including really, really quiet.

-Gnobuddy

Now there is one of the most profound things I've read on this thread! Great post!

-Gnobuddy

Hear! Hear! Second that. Always knew it was equipment error. If only could figure how to get a new valve in me head :idea: and where do you put the jack ..?

For the time being I find the marvellous Supro model Smokey Amp is all watt 1 needs

So you were interviewing interns for Metro Goldwyn Measures? Were they required to do a lot of cooking?

Lol; mgm doesn't stand for milligrams

Branford is right on the mark about the current state of affairs in our culture, just look at the "Stars" that are stars only because the media created them. They have no talent of any specificity. They usually look like they would be good genetic reproducers, which I suspect is the reason they are elevated to the level of Stardom. If you think about it the most important mission of any species is the successful continuation of it's kind. If we ever evolve into a species that naturally passes acquired knowledge onto it's children without them having to be taught it,(like instinct in the lower species) we will progress at a phenomenal pace. However if that ever does happen the pleasure of discovery will be seriously reduced from daily living. It will also eliminate the check and re-check process of validating acquired information throughout the ages. Possibly it would be a bad thing for acquired info to pass from generation to generation automatically because false/invalid info would pass untouched by the continuous scrutiny of the young people of the new generation. I have learned there is no concrete information in this world, everything is subject to relativity.

Lol; mgm doesn't stand for milligrams

WOW just WOW....

If we ever evolve into a species that naturally passes acquired knowledge onto it's children without them having to be taught it,(like instinct in the lower species)

I don't know of any species where adults pass on their own acquired knowledge to their children - the babies are born with pre-wired knowledge/ instincts, true, but each new generation is born with the same pre-wired stuff - or rather, the pre-wired stuff changes very, very slowly, on a time scale of millions of years rather than the lifespan of one generation.

Human babies have that sort of pre-wired knowledge too: studies have shown, for instance, that new-born babies, as soon as their eyes are able to focus, will spend more time looking at a drawing of a human face than a same-size drawing of a face with the features (eyes, nose, mouth) randomly moved around. In other words, the baby is born with pre-knowledge of what a human face looks like wired into its brain. You can see why - that's a pretty useful attribute for survival, knowing how to tell your mothers face from, say, a rock!

It seems we humans are also pre-wired for music, interestingly enough, and for language (which probably evolved from music). Even very young babies will react to music, while our dog and two cats pay absolutely no attention to it.

I have learned there is no concrete information in this world, everything is subject to relativity.
Some information is pretty darn concrete; for instance "step off a 20 foot high roof and you will fall on the concrete pavement below and it will hurt" is concrete enough that you and I are unlikely to contest it. Even more concrete is "vibrate a guitar string next to a coil of wire with a magnet nearby, and the coil will generate a small electrical voltage".

Amazingly enough, nobody in human history has ever seen that experiment fail, ever since Michael Faraday first moved a magnet near his length of wire and discovered electromagnetic induction. And that particular experiment has been successfully performed in stars for billions of years, long before there were human beings alive to know it!

When it comes to subjective human opinions, though, I agree 100% with you. Everything is relative and subject to individual interpretation.

-Gnobuddy

Gnobody, I agree with your interpretation of my post, and of course concrete against a Tele will always cause damage. I was just lamenting that all I've learned will be mostly lost and need to be relearned by my Daughter. I can teach her the basics and then some but the really cool observations and nuances will not go from generation to generation. I do take comfort in knowing that her re-discovery of knowledge I may have acquired will give her joy in her life and that's all I really care about , her happiness, comfort and security. If we were able to pass on great sums of accumulated knowledge the joy of discovery would be greatly diminished. So I guess the trade off is personal happiness/fulfillment vs the speed of Human development. A good compromise would be a technology that would allow selective information upload that could be chosen by the recipient. I don't think we are too far from that point now. Have you heard of the new retinal implants? they can allow the blind to see outline and light/dark discrimination. The success is only possible with eyeball damage at this point. You still need a functioning retina. At some point they will pinpoint the area in the brain where an implant will function properly for the same purpose, what a great scientific advance.

No, because if you only choose what you want to know or what you THINK you need to know you'll always be lacking in what you actually need. Ask any community college prof.

The state of our world is always in flux. Probably mostly due to us affecting it (positively and negatively).
The secret of human's success IS adaptation. So far, evolutionarily speaking, nature (or god if you prefer) has deemed it more advantageous for us not to pass on learned intelligence biologically.

Literally right now the world is a pretty fluid place.
Instinct could potentially F you big time(?).

I'm inclined to agree with klasaine - I'm less than half a century old, even so many things I learned are already irrelevant in todays world. How to fill a fountain pen with ink without getting it all over your fingers, for instance. :mrgreen:

Then again, plenty of things young people learn to do today are already completely irrelevant. Posting every trivial detail of your life to Twitter and Facebook being an example. Who the heck cares what you had for breakfast, and why on earth would you feel the need to share that with the world? :mrgreen:

-Gnobuddy