TURN IT DOWN: A Guide to playing guitar in Church.

So...you play guitar and you want to play in the worship band, eh?
Sounds good, but there are a few guidelines you’ll need to keep in mind.


1. Learn to play guitar in the 1990s. I guess you don’t HAVE to do this, but it helps. If you learn to play in any other decade, you’ll be exposed to all the cool things that the guitar can do, and will be eternally frustrated each week. Spend your time listening to Matchbox 20, Third Eye Blind, and Nirvana and then you’ll never be disappointed.

2. Under no circumstances should you listen to any guitar playing from the 1980’s except for U2. Van Halen does not exist, nor do any of those other ‘guitar wankers’. The only player that matters is the Edge. Learn how to make complete songs out of 8 notes and a delay pedal, and you’re golden. Get used to this.

3. Once you have assimilated all the 90’s rock bands, throw them out. Now you will listen only to current worship music. Secular bands have an intensity and energy to them that cannot possibly be used for anything other than rebellious sexual energy. It’s best not to think about it. Focus only on what KLove plays.

4. Develop muscle memory. This is a tricky one. The goal here is to learn to play without actually hearing yourself. Practice your chords and your delay lines enough so that you can play physically without needing to be heard musically.

5. Get a capo. What’s that you say? Real electric players don’t use capos? Yes that’s true most of the time, because electric guitars don’t lend themselves to capos like acoustics do. However, you’ll be treating your Les Paul/Strat/Schecter as if it is an acoustic, so it’s ok. The alternative to using a capo is learning to transpose and play in different keys. This is not wise, however, because in learning the necessary music theory you’ll expose yourself to other musical possibilities, and that leads down a dangerous road. See rule #2.

6. Don’t be sexy. Everyone knows that electric guitar music is the most overtly sexual music there is, and there’s no place for that in church. Don’t play anything that sounds like ZZ Top or Def Leppard. Those are stripper bands. Never mind that those groovy bass lines the bassist is pumping out are probably much sexier than any you’d be allowed to play, or that the sultry emotive singing by your average female worship leader (usually always the pretty ones) is significantly more distracting that playing a rocking riff or sweet little solo.

7. Don’t play solos or think about wanting to play solos. I know you’re thinking, “But wait! I can make this fit tastefully and really enhance the song!” No, you can’t. Everyone knows that there are two kinds of solos. You have the overindulgent guitar wankery of ‘Freebird’, and then there’s the solo** in ‘Free Fallin’. There is no middle ground. Every guitar solo no matter the length, breadth, or depth, is the equivalent of ‘Freebird’. And we all know that those kinds of solos are the musical metaphors for something that rhymes with ‘Pastor Nation’. Besides, who told you about the existence of tasteful solos? You’re supposed to be limiting your diet to 90’s rock and worship music.
**There’s a solo in ‘Free Fallin’? Oh right it’s a 4 bar break where he plays the same chords but louder.

8. If you absolutely must listen to musically adventurous groups, check out some of the more modern gospel stuff like Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir and the like. This kind of music is church approved despite its complexity and key changes, but also conveniently features next to no electric guitar, so you’re off the hook from having to learn anything new.

9. Get a POD. Real amps are for secular bands. Those guitar players who claim to want ‘good tone’ and need a certain volume level to get it are just selfishly making excuses because they secretly want to be the loudest person in the band. You should be able to get adequate sound for your 3 chords with a $200 amp simulator using headphones. Anything more than that and you risk drawing attention to yourself. I mean logically, if you are on stage with a real working amplifier that makes a pleasing sweet overdrive, how then will the soundman be able to mute you? By using actual stage volume, you run the risk of being heard by the congregation, and that’s dangerous territory. Really you’re onstage so that visually you balance out the bass player on the opposite side of the stage.

10. Learn to Read Music. I’m not talking about actual sheet music, of course. I’m talking about a printout with the chords on it. You want to appear prepared, but not so much that you actually memorized anything. Doing so will make the people who are using printed music feel bad. Also, having a big black music stand in front of you provides a nice visual barrier between you and the congregation.

11. Have a prayer song ready. Usually at the end of a service, there will be a prayer that will need music under it, in which someone will need to make up an innocuous bed of music off the top of their head to help people pray. This usually falls to the worship leader playing an acoustic guitar, or if he is suddenly killed, the piano player, who might suffer acute carpal tunnel syndrome. Much like becoming the President after a mass-assassination, the honor will fall to you to play under the prayer. Keep it simple. Make absolutely sure that you make it up on the spot. Prayer is no time for composed music.

12. “Wait, hold Up-lets go back to #7…What about Journey?” What about Journey? They are a nice middle of the road secular rock band that is ok to like because the vocals are slightly girly and they never rock TOO hard. Just make sure to cover your ears during the guitar parts. Those are the only things about Journey that worship music as a genre hasn’t stolen.

13. Don’t make friends with the drummer. If you do this, you run the risk of developing a rapport. When two musicians have rapport, they start to play off of one another and want to try new things. This is bad because it shifts control of the music away from the leadership team and into the hands of musicians, who are notoriously bad about wanting to play their instruments. When that occurs, jams happen and that’s bad. Why is it bad? Because Chris Tomlin doesn’t jam, and neither should you.

14. Don’t be distracting. Worshipers in a congregation are easily distracted from their worship. We know this because that is the reason always given for why electric players shouldn’t do X or Y. “We don’t want to distract people from the worship experience”.


Now to avoid confusion, here is a list of things that apparently are NOT distracting, given that they are allowed to happen all the time at churches all over:

1. Out of tune acoustic guitars.

2. Overzealous egotistical Keyboardists with 3 keyboards that take the bass notes, mid notes and high notes...keeping all the other instruments from having any space in the music.

3. Loud horn players (usually much louder than guitar or drums based on SPL).

4. Fancy animated graphics behind the lyrics on the screen.

5. Male worship leaders wearing shorts and flip-flops.

6. Female worship leaders wearing outfits significantly less conservative than shorts or flip-flops.

7. Violin solos.

8. Saxophone solos.

9. Elaborate vocal melismas clearly not intended to be sung-along-with. (Usually played by previously stated Overzealous Ego-Keyboardist)

10. Speakers who always have their first word cut off because the sound man fell asleep and forgot to un-mute the mic in time.

11. SUPER. LOUD. AWESOME. VIDEO. BUMPER! That someone made in Final Cut Pro during the week that when played before the sermon is louder than the worship band that just finished playing.

Now here is a list of things that ARE distracting:

1. Electric guitars that are any of the following:
A) playing more than 3 chords
B) playing any sort of lead line
C) audible

Conclusion
Well there you have it. Follow these basic guidelines and you'll be well on your way to being the best worship guitarist around. You'll never have personal conflicts with anyone, you'll never distract anyone with your playing, and you'll also never add anything to the music, and people will look at you and say "wow...how lame. I guess that's how these Christians view the world"

:roll:

Tough week in church?

Dude, I am dying here. :mrgreen:





8. If you absolutely must listen to musically adventurous groups, check out some of the more modern gospel stuff like Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir and the like.



:shock:

Aren't they a bit, ummm, how do I put this delicately, a bit "energized" for today's youth?

That might lead to impure thoughts.

Tough week in church?

I was thinking that same thing.

Had to read it again, I think this is my favorite:

Why is it bad? Because Chris Tomlin doesn’t jam, and neither should you.
:lol::lol:

2. Under no circumstances should you listen to any guitar playing from the 1980’s except for U2. Van Halen does not exist, nor do any of those other ‘guitar wankers’. The only player that matters is the Edge. Learn how to make complete songs out of 8 notes and a delay pedal, and you’re golden. Get used to this.

You clearly do NOT have a servant's heart or you would be using TWO delay pedals!

:twisted:

:shock::lol:

That's hilarious but only because it's often true. Thankfully our worship pastor is not that way. We will actually have a slide guitar solo this Sunday! :grin:

whateva...

tudes...

Tough week in church?

Oooooooh yeah.
Real tough.
Almost got into it with a visiting keyboardist last night. Didn't lose it though, just resigned to not playing if I can't praise the way I praise.
Tonight though....the gloves are off.
There will be no egotistical outsiders telling me what to do in my own church.
:twisted:

You spent much more energy composing that than I want to spend commenting on it.

Find a new church. Find a good worship leader and pastor that understand good music. Become a bandmaster, music director, or worship leader at another church. Instead of composing lengthy diatribes, get on your knees and spend that energy in prayer, listening intently.

Thigh - I am SOOOO glad you're willing to share here.
Please stay with it (both the list and playing in worship).
Since I'm probably going to start shopping for a new church soon, I've got to figure out what it is I really care about and what I can let go of.
Your posts are helping; thanks.
Peace - D

ya see, very few places will be fully candid

Oooooooh yeah.
Real tough.
Almost got into it with a visiting keyboardist last night. Didn't lose it though, just resigned to not playing if I can't praise the way I praise.
Tonight though....the gloves are off.
There will be no egotistical outsiders telling me what to do in my own church.
:twisted:

Been there... Oh man have I been there... I feel very lucky to be out of these type of situations right now in my life. I spent last evening just jamming with our worship team and chatting after. Problem is we know all the right answers of how to handle things, but we like to enjoy ourselves as well when volunteering, which doesn't always happen.

Thank you. And THIS is why God gives us a sense of humor...

You clearly do NOT have a servant's heart or you would be using TWO delay pedals!

:twisted:

+1 :lol:

Instead of composing lengthy diatribes, get on your knees and spend that energy in prayer, listening intently

+100000000

Thighbanez, i understand what you're going through. I felt the same way, and somewhat still do, but I got a chance to lead worship and I have a new respect for the position. I tried to be diplomatic encouraging voting on how things should go and I got alot of complaints but when came down to deciding they were like , " I don't know or I don't care, so the leader has to be the decider. Otherwise it's unorganized. I am humbled by my experience.

Visitor - "God told me that I need to sing and play a special at this church".
Pastor - "Really? He forgot to tell us."

Really funny! Thanks God for worship leaders like mine:grin:

I don't get it. Well, I do, because I've felt a lot of the same things, but if it's *that* bad, for heaven sakes, go do something else with your music! Nobody is making you play in a church where you feel that out of place, so why are you doing it?

It's no different than being in any other band. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The bad thing about churches is that while there may be things going on that make you crazy, there's usually not the one person in the "band" that gets everyone else together to agree to confront you at practice and tell you to leave, or, worse, *not* tell you they've moved practice time and location. You have to manage your own place in the group, and recognize when it's time to go, and then just go. Don't dump on the praise team, or the music, or whatever, just move on for yourself.

It's great that so many people want to play in church. A blessing. BUT. Churches simply reflect a corner of the world. They are filled with imperfect people, and not every one of them is going to match what you have to offer. I've even read about church leadership that seems to be confused about who is right or wrong. So, figure out if it's going to get better, or go find a different gig. It will be healthier than trying to find release and consolation here. Honest. You may feel better after clicking Post, but you won't feel better at the next practice.

The *only* other option is to have a change in the way you view what you and the praise team are doing, so you can actually enjoy it and feel there is purpose in what you are doing. It doesn't sound to me like you are going to get there from where you are.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the OP actually wrote that post. I've seen that whole thing before floating around the webernets. At least a year ago, and it's probably older than that.

So everyone who seems intent on lecturing him on "getting on his knees before God" (honestly where do these people come from? It's called humor!) you might want to back off a bit and see the post for what it is... SARCASM!

(Unless of course the people I'm referring too where being sarcastic as well. In which case I apologize, but we do need to work on your web forum dry humor typing abilities. :razz: )

It's been posted here before, I think. I'm just assuming it's posted because of the OP's (all all prior OP's) discontent. Sarcasm? Maybe, but it's so overwrought and full of cliches that it loses its humor very quickly.

oh goodness... I give up. let's all go eat Irish babies.

It's been posted here before, I think. I'm just assuming it's posted because of the OP's (all all prior OP's) discontent. Sarcasm? Maybe, but it's so overwrought and full of cliches that it loses its humor very quickly.

I remember this thread, I think it was originally called "how to play electric guitar in church", and was written by a 24 year-old drummer.

I don't get it. Well, I do, because I've felt a lot of the same things, but if it's *that* bad, for heaven sakes, go do something else with your music! Nobody is making you play in a church where you feel that out of place, so why are you doing it?

It's no different than being in any other band. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The bad thing about churches is that while there may be things going on that make you crazy, there's usually not the one person in the "band" that gets everyone else together to agree to confront you at practice and tell you to leave, or, worse, *not* tell you they've moved practice time and location. You have to manage your own place in the group, and recognize when it's time to go, and then just go. Don't dump on the praise team, or the music, or whatever, just move on for yourself.

It's great that so many people want to play in church. A blessing. BUT. Churches simply reflect a corner of the world. They are filled with imperfect people, and not every one of them is going to match what you have to offer. I've even read about church leadership that seems to be confused about who is right or wrong. So, figure out if it's going to get better, or go find a different gig. It will be healthier than trying to find release and consolation here. Honest. You may feel better after clicking Post, but you won't feel better at the next practice.

The *only* other option is to have a change in the way you view what you and the praise team are doing, so you can actually enjoy it and feel there is purpose in what you are doing. It doesn't sound to me like you are going to get there from where you are.

You're right. I don't feel any better after posting. (That article was a repost from another time) I'm actually wondering if I want to do this anymore. I think I'd rather just join an upstart band and leave church for worship. I'm not ever going to find what I'm looking for at my church, and I can't leave because of my other responsibilities there and my family is happy there. I know I'd be happier the less involved I was with people there. If I just left it at worship I'd be a lot less angry each time I leave.

I just don't have the people skills to compete in the gospel arena.

I love these threads, mostly because they don't represent what I do at all. It's cool to see "how the other half lives".

Our little (4 piece) and irregular (monthly) church band (piano, violin, mandolin, guitar/bass/banjo) doesn't play any "P&W" stuff, and not much modern stuff at all. Traditional hymn tunes like Amazing Grace, Slane, Thaxted, Brother James Air, Tallis' Canon, Redhead, are fun to play and orchestrate instrumentally. The congregation generally gets hymns, psalms, and responces to sing, while the band does incidental music, preludes, and postludes. Sometimes I've accompanied the choir on guitar, but usually that's the job of the pianist/organist.

Peace, Mike.

The *only* other option is to have a change in the way you view what you and the praise team are doing, so you can actually enjoy it and feel there is purpose in what you are doing. It doesn't sound to me like you are going to get there from where you are.


I think this is the solution for about 98% of the whining/complaining posts in this forum. It's a ministry, not our own little sandbox, and we should approach it as such. It also seems like many of the churches discussed here must not have much in the way of personal requirements for folks to be on the worship team (spiritual maturity, teachable, patient, above reproach, etc)... too bad, as it would prevent a lot of this "stuff" from starting in the first place.

And btw, I did think some of the OP's list was funny. :wink:

It's a ministry, not our own little sandbox

Now there's a quote worth keepin'!! :cool:

I'm not ever going to find what I'm looking for at my church ... If I just left it at worship I'd be a lot less angry each time I leave.

...

OP
I'm feelin' it.
Also funny list you've got goin'.
I think I mentioned this in my volume diatribe post ,but have the sound man do a "back of the room" recording of the service and give it a listen. Don't do a board feed recording. Just a room recording.
If the guitar is audible and placed well in the mix ? If not ?
It may give you some talking points.
I had our sound man do this for 3 shows on my last tour. Now when someone is tellin' me its too loud I can play them a recording that pretty much proves I'm not. Sound checks are a psycho drama sometimes.
Just might help.
Good luck !

Hahaha this made my day :D

I can relate to alot of what Thigh listed. But I let it roll off. The only concerns I have are the sound crew we have. We have a rotating group of soundguys & each Sunday we get a different mix. It can be frustrating at times. I've even argued with our pastor when he said I was too loud. I pointed to the board - "That's who you need to talk to". While it isn't about me on Sunday morning, there are times when I do have to remind some that my 35 years of experience kinda helps me think I know what I'm talking about. For some people on our team, this is all they have. For others, like myself, we play in clubs, bars & anywhere else. So what I don't do in church I do somewhere else.

Too funny!

Even funnier is some guys took it all serious... ha ha.

It is a joke article guys. . . come on now...

There will be no egotistical outsiders telling me what to do in my own church.
:twisted:

Really? I wish I had my own church.

Too funny!

Even funnier is some guys took it all serious... ha ha.

It is a joke article guys. . . come on now...

Laughter is good. We need more of this. One of the reasons I love my WL is that after he prays he always tells us all to just make sure you have fun. (This has not been my experience in the past.)

Laughter is good. We need more of this. One of the reasons I love my WL is that after he prays he always tells us all to just make sure you have fun. (This has not been my experience in the past.)

A cheerful heart is good medicine ... PS 17:22

I find that when I am the one leading P&W I want my guitar and vocal up front in the mix. I guess all leaders are like this. They want their instrument and vocal to cut through.
When I am not leading, all I want is to hear myself well enough so as to play with confidence. If this means I have to make compromises on my own sound, I do it. This often means sacrificing on my amp, or alternatively, using a MFX pedal with dual outputs..
This is the one gig where It's all up to me, but not at all about me.. a paradox that will never end.

I need this put into a giant wall poster with some motivational picture behind it to hang in my practice room!! :mrgreen: Sometimes I get distracted and think I can solo just because Lincoln Brewster does, and I NEED a guide like this to keep me grounded!!

Thanks so much for a wonderfully done post. I got a great laugh from it and will be forwarding it on to all the members of my praise team for reference!! :lol:

Oh my is this funny. Thanks for making my day. God bless Bro!

While I see this a lot I am lucky that most of this mindset isn't in the church I attend. I play lead lines(melody) almost exclusively and am encouraged to make up my own lines and even solo on occasion. We also play secular music ( that is appropriate) sometimes and it is always taken well. We even have a Christian motorcycle club which I am a part of.

There is a lot of truth in the post. I see a lot of frustrated and talented church guitar players as well as other talented church musicians come to the Thursday night blues jam just so they can turn up and really play with great dynamics and emotion without being yelled at. I miss the old days in church when we could play with dynamics and emotion which does not need to be inanely loud to achieve. Insanely low stage volumes have wiped out any dynamic levels that music needs to have in order to have life to it. I have seen churches drive out many gifted old school musicians because of this. I miss playing in church but it is much safer playing in a bar. Perhaps someday I can crank the Hammond (Yes a Hammond B3 and Leslie are too loud) or my Tele in church again. I am trying new gear for a ampless/Hammondless totally in ear and sound way of playing to get back into church but it is definitely not the same. Pray for the wounded! Wayne

There's a ton of truth in that post.... I laughed so hard, but that's 'cuz I spent a decade as the pastor after 15 years as a vocalist / horn player. ;-D (Yes, I do play guitar, too.)

Now, try putting together a Production Team (live sound and video) that excludes people who keep wondering what all them little knob are for.... I sense my martyrdom at hand. ;-D

Now, try putting together a Production Team (live sound and video) that excludes people who keep wondering what all them little knob are for.... I sense my martyrdom at hand. ;-D

You are absolutely right. With volunteers, it is near impossible. In my experience, the majority in churches involved in the music ministry have little to none pro experience and have so-so musicianship skills at best. Most don't have/make time to invest in practice or training to improve, but they are faithful to show up and play.

You are absolutely right. With volunteers, it is near impossible. In my experience, the majority in churches involved in the music ministry have little to none pro experience and have so-so musicianship skills at best. Most don't have/make time to invest in practice or training to improve, but they are faithful to show up and play.

No... you're right, lol. About everything you've just stated gave me flash backs of my previous worship team. Where members who are devoted, love to orchestrate "their visions" of praise with selahs and prayer time "freestyle", yet they lack the skills and don't practice to improve. I am by no means a pro, but in terms of actual skill to the rest of them, I'm probably a red belt, while the rest are whites and long time yellows, lol. But no one wants to learn from a redbelt do they... (there's no master either haha).

I use a POD and love U2. I'm kinda feeling like the odd man out here.... :lol:

I use a POD and love U2. I'm kinda feeling like the odd man out here.... :lol:

That's alright we still love ya, despite all that.

The church gig is its own discipline. I learned that as a tech doing gear for guys playing in church before I was doing it myself. Noise, tone, volume levels, control, musical discipline, are all issues of a whole other order.

If you're in your groove then more power to ya.

While I see this a lot I am lucky that most of this mindset isn't in the church I attend. I play lead lines(melody) almost exclusively and am encouraged to make up my own lines and even solo on occasion. We also play secular music ( that is appropriate) sometimes and it is always taken well. We even have a Christian motorcycle club which I am a part of.

Ah kewl!
I started out playing lead with everything and eventually adapted that into playing wes montgomery style lead lines, then tasteful double-stops added in where flavorful. Once I get my ear-training good and can pick out the chords fast enough, I can play more rhythm.

There is a lot of truth in the post. I see a lot of frustrated and talented church guitar players as well as other talented church musicians come to the Thursday night blues jam just so they can turn up and really play with great dynamics and emotion without being yelled at. I miss the old days in church when we could play with dynamics and emotion which does not need to be inanely loud to achieve. Insanely low stage volumes have wiped out any dynamic levels that music needs to have in order to have life to it. I have seen churches drive out many gifted old school musicians because of this. I miss playing in church but it is much safer playing in a bar. Perhaps someday I can crank the Hammond (Yes a Hammond B3 and Leslie are too loud) or my Tele in church again. I am trying new gear for a ampless/Hammondless totally in ear and sound way of playing to get back into church but it is definitely not the same. Pray for the wounded! Wayne

Amen to that! We lost a great blues guitarist that played for one of the churches in our jurisdiction due to the "Turn it down" mindset. After a few years of getting told to turn it down, he packed his gear and went somewhere else. It was saddest to me because at the time, he was the only other guitarist in our jurisdiction that I could talk to or learn anything from.

Nice! this is funny!

I did experience being told to turn it down.. I was young, I was into solos and stuff... i didn't care about delays and lead fills, I just want the fattest, loudest, distortion I could ever find and use it even in slow, worship songs...

but I got out of it quickly.. after discovering how Nigel Hendroff does in songs, similar to U2 style.. got myself a delay and threw the drive pedals out.. and started playing fill-ins..

there are songs that have solos, we do that too because it really builds up the song but i must admit that it really gets the congregation to focus on me, so I just improvise and just play chord inversions to make it sound like it's just rhythm but there are notes that stand out.. but there are times that the spirit really uplifts me and play certain riffs. I cannot control that, but I can control my volume... that's the difference..

and I love doing fill-ins.. just play minimum notes and a delay and I'm happy.. because I'm not stepping into someone's shoes, I'm not loud, I'm doing something different than everybody else.. bass tones are already covered, the mid tones too, the rhythm is there, the beat is there, the singers are there, so what's left for me? so what I do is find a sonic territory that haven't been explored and stay there...

You know, all of that "just get on your knees and plead with God to help you deal with the jerk who is making you miserable" stuff really makes me short-circuit. The sad truth is that a LOT of passive/aggressive people get away with murder precisely because it's "church" and 99% of us are simply trying to be the best versions of ourselves, right?

I was once asked if I could spend a weekend playing guitar with some other pick-up musicians for another local church... It turned out to be a singles thing for twenty-somethings. Sure enough, they brought in some "exciting young worship leader" from New York who turned out to be a real nightmare of a human being. Same stuff our man here is detailing... arrogant, bullying... He engaged in the kind of behavior that used to turn band practice into a bench-clearing brawl, you know?

We ended up telling Mr. New York that even Jesus would probably slap him in the head for the way he was treating his fellow believers. No lie. You'll never guess what happened... He straightened right up, the music got much better, and the rest of the weekend was a dream.

We can't let arrogant bullies push good people around simply because it's "church." There's no way allowing bad behavior to persist brings glory to God.

Just my two cents.

A cheerful heart is good medicine ... PS 17:22

yes indeed!

First of all: I love this place. I love the topic. I love the content. I love the discussion. Most of all, I love that people are allowed to discuss situations related to their faith (to an extent at least).



We can't let arrogant bullies push good people around simply because it's "church." There's no way allowing bad behavior to persist brings glory to God.

Just my two cents.

I can't say how much I agree with this. We should treat each other how God treats us. However, there is point where extending God like grace is superseded by intolerance for what is clearly WRONG. Some people think that because they are in church and call themselves a Christian they can get away with anything. They also feel that because they say "I prayed about it, and I really feel that God wants me to...*insert thing the person wants to do here*" they can get away with anything. That phrase is the ultimate Christian trump card and can't effectively be argued.

At the end of the day, though, some things are right and some things are wrong. That is just how God created the universe. Absolutes exist, and that is the evidence that God exists. I know that absolutes exist because the statement "There are no absolutes" is an absolute statement.

So, just like we all know absolutely that it is wrong to murder, cheat, steal, commit adultery or worship any other god; it is also wrong to treat someone how some of the people described in this thread do. People are within their bounds to confront this type behavior and try to resolve it in a Christ like way with a Christ like heart.



Sooooooo, My name is Jay. I'm pretty new here. I have been a member for a little while but mostly browse and drool. I have been a worship leader since I was 15. It has been 10 years now.

If you all knew where I play and how supportive everyone is of my style and just how much lead work I get away with in church, you would all be very envious.

Actually, you wouldn't be envious of WHERE I play. Our building is less than ideal. We have to setup and tear down the entire church and sound system every week because it is in the gymnasium of a Christian school. We are a very small body, but meet God every week (and have particularly good worship services :mrgreen::wink::wink:)

It's nice to finally come out of my shell and enter the discussion here at TDPRI.

At the end of the day, though, some things are right and some things are wrong.

There are always two points of view in a disagreement. Sometimes a compromise is what's needed and we are told to make every effort to maintain unity. Usually the first reaction when we are at the receiving end is to get angry.

Now for a long time I thought that to be angry and/or show anger is wrong and that God doesn't like it when we do.

Now I see that there's nothing wrong with anger if we express it in an appropriate way, such as in a non-violent way, in discussion. We are instructed to be careful when we are angry not to sin. If the anger is not expressed but suppressed it can actually harm us. If it is turned inward it can lead to depression, for example. I heard a message on this last Sunday.

If the anger is not expressed but suppressed it can actually harm us. If it is turned inward it can lead to depression, for example. I heard a message on this last Sunday.

Thats what was happening to me. I was so frustrated with my situation that I was contemplating walking out on my church, marriage and life in general. all over playing music...(Do I really love it that much?) I had to find a way to ask for help without pissing anyone else off.

Anger can be the basis behind some huge mistakes in life...

I quote from OP : "I'm not ever going to find what I'm looking for" - sounds like you and Bono are much closer than you think !

oh goodness... I give up. let's all go eat Irish babies.

I feel smart for getting this. :mrgreen:

But I was laughing the entire time reading the OP. So true, so true...
I'd rather laugh about the situation than go crazy, amIright?

Great thread everyone. I am so encouraged to see this many believers in here! I resonate with just about everything thats been said in here. I had to endure the first 6 years of my service in my church without a worship pastor. So alot of egos got away with alot of bad behavoir and i am praising the lord now because we have a fantastic leader who knows what its all about and i am now actually encouraged to do my thing, and be heard! Yes we still have the soundguy issues but they're improving. Oh and i have to mention that our leaders love the electric guitar so much that they bought an AC30 to be the house amp for everyone to use!
God bless.

I think this is the best troll piece I've ever read. Good Job and you haven't gotten banned.

I was recruited almost 2 years ago now to return to the church of my childhood in order to play guitar in the soon to be re-formed worship team.

In my time playing there I've gone from the church's Line 6 AX2 (I have one too, so I knew how to monkey with it) to a full on rack rig and even to a Marshall Plexi half stack.

I make sure that I am never louder than the piano or the drums, but I still get told that I am "The loudest player". I'm convinced that people hear with their eyes, and since I bring more gear than everyone else combined (including what the church owns) I must be louder, simply because it looks like I am.

Fortunately we get more compliments on our sound than complaints!

So true in so many ways.
I am having the same trouble I always have fir a couple years now-
We have an older guy 65+ who has been the music bully for over 20 years. I play out regularly with 6 guys who, one by one, have been bullied out of our church because of this guy. He plays a Taylor 12 string, but not just any Taylor, it's special: It's out of tune, poorly intonated and I believe the top is sinking as the strings rattle on the frets like rubber bands stretched across a washboard.
His playing style is this- hit hard, don't flex your wrist, and do not, under any circumstances use any form of dynamics. Whenever possible, aviod a rythmic strum and smack the strings on every word the vocalists sings.
The other night, we had him, another guitarist, a bass player and me. His was the only thing you could hear. I play a Martin D 40, which by all accounts can be a cannon. I literally could not hear myself play unless I used his "hands of stone" technique, which I refuse to do.
So the quandry is still there- tell an old guy he needs to play gently and quietly or just stop showing up.
We play the Holden Evening Prayer through Lent, and it's a gorgeous piece of music demanding grace and dynamics. I don't want to do the volume war thing as none us are mic'd, but there's gonna have to be something done about this. It's just incredibly frustrating hearing a beautiful service being trashed.
So what's a guy to do?

A lot of your topic was pretty dead on and true. I am the lead guitar player at my church, and the Pastor actually wants me to turn up so he can hear me tear up the lead. Although, we don't really play contemporary music. It is mainly Southern Gospel and really fast country/bluegrass rhythms where I am allowed to play as bluesy and soulful as I want. I do not read music and I play strictly by ear and God gives me the ability to play by ear and the Pastor recognizes the gift and wants me to share that gift with the congregation.

But, all that said, that is not me. I am a very subdued and laid back person that doesn't like having the spotlight. Most of my church's music is instrumental jam sessions while taking up the offering, shaking hands, and congregationals, but I will frequently play along with a CD for special music.

I also played in a Contemporary Praise band. Just remember, it isn't about you, and it isn't about any one instrument. The Glory goes to God and as His servants, we have no right to do anything but play the music to help someone in the audience get a blessing.

I hope things get better for you, but try and look at it this way. The Praise Band IS NOT a musical outlet for us to play guitar and jam. It is about letting God use us as His instruments to help bring people in the audience to Christ. If the Lord feels a solo will bring someone to the alter, you just might get the opportunity. We can do absolutely nothing that He doesn't want, and it's our job to not get in his way with our musical pride. Every guitarist takes pride in what we do. It is fun, it is enjoyable, and it makes us all feel good to use our talents for God, but we can't let our pride control our emotions when we are being examples in front of a church body.

I think this is the best troll piece I've ever read. Good Job and you haven't gotten banned.

True lol. I'm happy to still be here!

I
I make sure that I am never louder than the piano or the drums, but I still get told that I am "The loudest player". I'm convinced that people hear with their eyes, and since I bring more gear than everyone else combined (including what the church owns) I must be louder, simply because it looks like I am.

Fortunately we get more compliments on our sound than complaints!

Lol, you know what...you may be onto something there. The keyboardist in my church is 3x louder than me, but somehow I always get told to turn down because I'm too loud? i'll never understand it. When I listen to the video and audio recordings you can barely hear anything but the keyboards because they're so loud. To the point of almost overpowering the drums. I had to install a baffle on the camcorder microphone so that the recording isn't full of
that "flub-flub-flub" sound from the sound being too loud. Of course that didn't help me be heard any (Or the singers) but what can you do. The keyboardist is the pastors son. :shrug:
Nowadays I just play for my praise and leave it at that.

So true in so many ways.
I am having the same trouble I always have fir a couple years now-
We have an older guy 65+. His playing style is this- hit hard, don't flex your wrist, and do not, under any circumstances use any form of dynamics. Whenever possible, aviod a rythmic strum and smack the strings on every word the vocalists sings.
So the quandry is still there- tell an old guy he needs to play gently and quietly or just stop showing up.
So what's a guy to do?

Wow, that's tough. Perhaps you could suggest he try a different method? Someone has to say something to this guy. Perhaps record him on video and post it on youtube. Maybe the public comments will inform him of his horrible technique.

can I get an AMEN ?

The OP is tongue in cheek but pretty much hits every nail on the head.

Why is it that if you play the shortest, tastiest guitar fill, you're showboating. But the piano player can do the cheesiest overblown arpeggiations and runs all over everybody else's playing and it's beautiful because it's a piano.

Why is it that nobody can hear my guitar and that's cool but it's OK that the grand piano drowns everyone else out. That's beautiful because it's a piano.


I know more notes on my bass than the root. Why can't I play them?

Why don't you want people to hear my bass? Why am I playing if nobody hears it?

Why do the people that post the myriads of amateur chords sheets for all the worship music on the internet always put the wrong chords in the wrong spots?

You spent much more energy composing that than I want to spend commenting on it.


Instead of composing lengthy diatribes, get on your knees and spend that energy in prayer, listening intently.

As if you assume he hasn't already done that. Doesn't make his comments any less true and accurate. What he wrote is happening all over the place at lots of churches.

Some times we need people who will tell it EXACTLY like it is. Why should the classic rockers have all the talent and all the fun?

The OP is tongue in cheek but pretty much hits every nail on the head.

Why is it that if you play the shortest, tastiest guitar fill, you're showboating. But the piano player can do the cheesiest overblown arpeggiations and runs all over everybody else's playing and it's beautiful because it's a piano.

Why is it that nobody can hear my guitar and that's cool but it's OK that the grand piano drowns everyone else out. That's beautiful because it's a piano.


I know more notes on my bass than the root. Why can't I play them?

Why don't you want people to hear my bass? Why am I playing if nobody hears it?

Why do the people that post the myriads of amateur chords sheets for all the worship music on the internet always put the wrong chords in the wrong spots?


So true. We have the same thing, the keyboard guy is best friends - like the son he never had - with the founding pastor. His keyboard is so loud you can mute it at the board and nothing changes in the house. The rest of the band is in the house speakers, with the keyboard muted, and the keyboard is still the loudest instrument.

One time I "rebelled" by turning my amp down so nobody could hear it, then I just strummed along like I was playing, even though the guitar was inaudible. I was shocked when the leader said, "I cant hear you, all I can hear is keyboards." Everybody said almost in unison, "Exactly!" So I turned it back up where it was when I was alone and warming up and they told me it was "awfully loud." After we did the song again he said he still couldn't hear me, all he could hear was keyboards. "Exactly!"

Fortunately, the appreciation level for Lincoln Brewster and Phil Keaggy is high in our church......now my amp is loud enough for me to stand next to the drummer. But for some reason that keyboard player is out of control. At least he's a good keyboard player.

I think it's sad that you took an hour to write this, proof read, edit the 1st draft and then check it daily to see how many responses you've gotten...

Some times we need people who will tell it EXACTLY like it is. Why should the classic rockers have all the talent and all the fun?

Funny thing is is that when guys say stuff like this... It's usually to folks who they know will agree with them... 99% of the time they don't have the... Guts... To say it to the people who they want to say it too. Oh well... Guess that's where we all lose.

So true in so many ways.
I am having the same trouble I always have fir a couple years now-
We have an older guy 65+ who has been the music bully for over 20 years. I play out regularly with 6 guys who, one by one, have been bullied out of our church because of this guy. He plays a Taylor 12 string, but not just any Taylor, it's special: It's out of tune, poorly intonated and I believe the top is sinking as the strings rattle on the frets like rubber bands stretched across a washboard.
His playing style is this- hit hard, don't flex your wrist, and do not, under any circumstances use any form of dynamics. Whenever possible, aviod a rythmic strum and smack the strings on every word the vocalists sings.
The other night, we had him, another guitarist, a bass player and me. His was the only thing you could hear. I play a Martin D 40, which by all accounts can be a cannon. I literally could not hear myself play unless I used his "hands of stone" technique, which I refuse to do.
So the quandry is still there- tell an old guy he needs to play gently and quietly or just stop showing up.
We play the Holden Evening Prayer through Lent, and it's a gorgeous piece of music demanding grace and dynamics. I don't want to do the volume war thing as none us are mic'd, but there's gonna have to be something done about this. It's just incredibly frustrating hearing a beautiful service being trashed.
So what's a guy to do?

Gold topper I think there are several things that you could help your situation. First I would be honest with the worship pastor. Surely he notices that the old guy is not blending well with the group. It is under his spiritual leadership and shepherding that this group is to function. Second I would try (as hard as this may be) to build a relationship with the older fellow. There are so many things that we all can over look when we are friends with someone. And you can in a comical way ask him to please turn his noise maker down... Can be funny but still get your point across. The third thing is a costly solution, but an awesome one is to install an aviom personal monitoring system. each musician has a 16 channel personal mixer with earbuds. This eliminates stage noise and allows for a much better all around mix. It also takes away the headache of having to rely on the sound guys to get the monitor mixes right. It also gives the sound technicians the sole responsibility of mixing front of house only, and would fix the problems with the guy overpowering everyone else. I know that this is not feasible for some churches, but is the best solution.
Just as most of the other posts state that we are doing this for the Lord and it should be all about Him! So pray through this whole process!

I have had many similar situations like this in my 14 years of playing in churches and being a worship leader. Just remember that God is the ultimate goal and we are not! Be loving and kind!! Good luck bro!

I think it's sad that you took an hour to write this, proof read, edit the 1st draft and then check it daily to see how many responses you've gotten...

Isn't that exactly what this place is for?




Funny thing is is that when guys say stuff like this... It's usually to folks who they know will agree with them... 99% of the time they don't have the... Guts... To say it to the people who they want to say it too. Oh well... Guess that's where we all lose.

I've shared it with plenty of people who weren't expecting it, some who didn't want to hear it........and they still know it's true. I have no clue if everyone or anyone in here will agree with it before I post it.

What does "guts" have to do with it? Not as much as "heart"......

The OP is tongue in cheek but pretty much hits every nail on the head.

Why is it that if you play the shortest, tastiest guitar fill, you're showboating. But the piano player can do the cheesiest overblown arpeggiations and runs all over everybody else's playing and it's beautiful because it's a piano.

Why is it that nobody can hear my guitar and that's cool but it's OK that the grand piano drowns everyone else out. That's beautiful because it's a piano.


I know more notes on my bass than the root. Why can't I play them?

Why don't you want people to hear my bass? Why am I playing if nobody hears it?

Why do the people that post the myriads of amateur chords sheets for all the worship music on the internet always put the wrong chords in the wrong spots?

Answer: In this country, Majority rules. It's just sad that the majority of people are unwilling to break out of the societal Borg-collective, speak their minds and be different.

As if you assume he hasn't already done that. Doesn't make his comments any less true and accurate. What he wrote is happening all over the place at lots of churches.

Some times we need people who will tell it EXACTLY like it is. Why should the classic rockers have all the talent and all the fun?

The funniest thing is that TxTeleMan hasn't been reading along at all.
I didn't compose it, I just reposted it. :lol:

@TxTeleMan: Maybe read the whole thing through before commenting there buddy.

Someone already told it...I'm just retelling it for those that missed it and because i have gone through it.

So true. We have the same thing, the keyboard guy is best friends - like the son he never had - with the founding pastor. His keyboard is so loud you can mute it at the board and nothing changes in the house. The rest of the band is in the house speakers, with the keyboard muted, and the keyboard is still the loudest instrument.

One time I "rebelled" by turning my amp down so nobody could hear it, then I just strummed along like I was playing, even though the guitar was inaudible. I was shocked when the leader said, "I cant hear you, all I can hear is keyboards." Everybody said almost in unison, "Exactly!" So I turned it back up where it was when I was alone and warming up and they told me it was "awfully loud." After we did the song again he said he still couldn't hear me, all he could hear was keyboards. "Exactly!"

Fortunately, the appreciation level for Lincoln Brewster and Phil Keaggy is high in our church......now my amp is loud enough for me to stand next to the drummer. But for some reason that keyboard player is out of control. At least he's a good keyboard player.

Same thing in my church, except the keyboardist is the pastor's son. Now this guy is A-MAZING on the keyboards and is my instructor on how to play COGIC style gospel. I love him to pieces (in the Lord), But man, i don't know if he is using the house speakers to hear himself along with his amp-monitor...but he always raises his volume during service soooo much!

I think it's sad that you took an hour to write this, proof read, edit the 1st draft and then check it daily to see how many responses you've gotten...

Read the thread again. You've missed a bunch of info.

Funny thing is is that when guys say stuff like this... It's usually to folks who they know will agree with them... 99% of the time they don't have the... Guts... To say it to the people who they want to say it too. Oh well... Guess that's where we all lose.

I have asked every person in charge of things at church including the pastor, elder, deacons and missionaries and no one seems to want to do anything about it. I tell you what, can you come to my church and get this guy right please? :wink::roll:

I have asked every person in charge of things at church including the pastor, elder, deacons and missionaries and no one seems to want to do anything about it. I tell you what, can you come to my church and get this guy right please? :wink::roll:

when a guy sees a need for a change in an organization and they have a sense of what that change should be, they owe it to themselves and the organization to communicate that to the leadership. If the leadership hears the proposal and decides to not make the changes, you have the opportunity of making an additional appeal to their senses of what is best for the organization.

Failing that, a wise man has two responsibilities: 1) Accept that his view of what should be done is not the best choice for the organization and fall in line with the direction of the organization or 2) seek a situation in an organization that is not following the current path of your current church.

To stay and be unhappy is a disservice to both the congregation and to yourself. At minimum, you should withdraw from the activity that you think is 'wrong'.

This should all be done without creating a 'stir'

btw, I think the original article is funny and shows how 'mcdonalds-ized' church has become. I think it has far more to do with an economic model than anything to do with faith or worship. They are marketing a perceived lifestyle...

I'm always on the hunt for a latin mass and would avoid a modern electric church like the plague!:mrgreen: Different strokes!

Wow! That is serious! Do you speak Latin?

I've given up on trying to effect change in my church. I've resigned myself to just playing for God and if no one can hear me, they can take up that cross if they want. I play with my amp facing me and just play along with what's being played. I have my amp going to a DI box that routes to the rear-house speakers as well...so if the soundman decides he wants me in the rear speakers that day then so-be-it. I'm not fighting with anyone in church for anything anymore...it's not worth it. At the end of the day I don't have to go home with any of them and I'm not gonna see or hear from any of them til the upcoming sunday...so why stress.

If I want to REALLY play music I can join another band or sit in at blues night at the local places. There are too many options outside of church for fun to let church-folk continue to stress me out.

Wow! That is serious! Do you speak Latin?

I've given up on trying to effect change in my church. I've resigned myself to just playing for God and if no one can hear me, they can take up that cross if they want.

If I want to REALLY play music I can join another band or sit in at blues night at the local places. There are too many options outside of church for fun to let church-folk continue to stress me out.

In my opinion, this is the wrong attitude. The fact is that church is not an outlet for your musical ambition, but it is a place to allow God to use you for HIS glory. If that means turning down, then so be it.

In the end, playing guitar in church is a service for God so that attendees of the service may get a blessing, not hear "your" playing. I'm not trying to come down on you at all, but you should really look into starting a side band so you can let your musical ambition shine, but church isn't the place for that.

Do you have a soundman? Ask him if he can hear you. If he can, then trust him he knows what he is doing. Good luck and remember, leave pride out of church and you will be amazed at what God can do! :smile:

Wow! That is serious! Do you speak Latin?

I've given up on trying to effect change in my church. I've resigned myself to just playing for God and if no one can hear me, they can take up that cross if they want. I play with my amp facing me and just play along with what's being played. I have my amp going to a DI box that routes to the rear-house speakers as well...so if the soundman decides he wants me in the rear speakers that day then so-be-it. I'm not fighting with anyone in church for anything anymore...it's not worth it. At the end of the day I don't have to go home with any of them and I'm not gonna see or hear from any of them til the upcoming sunday...so why stress.

If I want to REALLY play music I can join another band or sit in at blues night at the local places. There are too many options outside of church for fun to let church-folk continue to stress me out.

Like I said, I thought your initial post was pretty funny and lighthearted, but, like several others, I sensed a deeper frustration too (as evidenced in the above post.)

You know best, it is your church etc... but, I'm sad that you are in this situation, it sounds very deflated when by all senses, it should be uplifting.

Good luck amigo, in the meantime I'll be working on my latin verb declensions... and minding my own business!:grin:

In my opinion, this is the wrong attitude. The fact is that church is not an outlet for your musical ambition, but it is a place to allow God to use you for HIS glory. If that means turning down, then so be it.

In the end, playing guitar in church is a service for God so that attendees of the service may get a blessing, not hear "your" playing. I'm not trying to come down on you at all, but you should really look into starting a side band so you can let your musical ambition shine, but church isn't the place for that.

I completely agree. Like I said, I'm at the point of playing for me so that I can get my breakthrough. If God's people running the church don't think that the guitar is part of the music that ushers in the spirit then that's fine too. If they don't want me for a sunbeam who am I to complain. I've still got me and Jesus. The bible says "Save yourself from this untoward generation" and I am intending on internalizing that sage advice.


Do you have a soundman? Ask him if he can hear you. If he can, then trust him he knows what he is doing. Good luck and remember, leave pride out of church and you will be amazed at what God can do! :smile:
I manage/trained the young man that runs the audio. He constantly has the keyboardist telling him to turn everything else down and turn him (KB) up. I have been trying to stay in my lane and let him manage the audio (You know, give the kids some ownership and responsibility). I don't want to have to pull rank and tell him to make no changes to the mixing board unless they come through me. I want him to make the right decisions based on what he hears, not what anyone else hears (Unless it's the leadership of course).

There were many times when I ran the mixing board (before I started playing guitar and put the young man in charge) that the keyboardist would say he couldn't hear himself and demanded I turn him up in the house. I would just mime like I turned him up and give him a thumbs up when really I didn't do anything because the mix for the house was set perfectly. He eventually would realize that he needed to turn up his personal monitor sitting at his feet and not the house volume.

Sometimes the levels of our church are so loud you can hear the keyboards down the block! I've literally driven up to the church on the way in to bible study on thursday evenings and wondered where the Block-Party was going on. Only to find out that it's our church blasting music so loud that it fills the neighborhood. I'm surprised the cops haven't been called already. As soon as I get in the church, the first thing I have to do is turn the levels down from where they keyboardist raised them to on the board (he gets there before everyone else) :roll:

I don't believe you have to be whiskey-bent and hell-bound to find humor in the OP.
:lol::lol:
HILARIOUS!:lol:

I completely agree. Like I said, I'm at the point of playing for me so that I can get my breakthrough. If God's people running the church don't think that the guitar is part of the music that ushers in the spirit then that's fine too. If they don't want me for a sunbeam who am I to complain. I've still got me and Jesus. The bible says "Save yourself from this untoward generation" and I am intending on internalizing that sage advice.


I manage/trained the young man that runs the audio. He constantly has the keyboardist telling him to turn everything else down and turn him (KB) up. I have been trying to stay in my lane and let him manage the audio (You know, give the kids some ownership and responsibility). I don't want to have to pull rank and tell him to make no changes to the mixing board unless they come through me. I want him to make the right decisions based on what he hears, not what anyone else hears (Unless it's the leadership of course).

There were many times when I ran the mixing board (before I started playing guitar and put the young man in charge) that the keyboardist would say he couldn't hear himself and demanded I turn him up in the house. I would just mime like I turned him up and give him a thumbs up when really I didn't do anything because the mix for the house was set perfectly. He eventually would realize that he needed to turn up his personal monitor sitting at his feet and not the house volume.

Sometimes the levels of our church are so loud you can hear the keyboards down the block! I've literally driven up to the church on the way in to bible study on thursday evenings and wondered where the Block-Party was going on. Only to find out that it's our church blasting music so loud that it fills the neighborhood. I'm surprised the cops haven't been called already. As soon as I get in the church, the first thing I have to do is turn the levels down from where they keyboardist raised them to on the board (he gets there before everyone else) :roll:


Yeah we have major issues with our sound guy too. We spend hours at practice getting our levels right and then Sunday morning comes and he tweaks it all back to "his" personal settings before the service. He believes that the soundboard EQ should look like a smiley face and doesn't seem to grasp the concept of separate channel volume and thinks that the Master Volume is the only volume knob on the Mixer.

Yeah we have major issues with our sound guy too. We spend hours at practice getting our levels right and then Sunday morning comes and he tweaks it all back to "his" personal settings before the service. He believes that the soundboard EQ should look like a smiley face and doesn't seem to grasp the concept of separate channel volume and thinks that the Master Volume is the only volume knob on the Mixer.

Woooow...that stinks.
I've considered hiring a professional to come in and setup our audio one time at a choir/band rehearsal night and have that be the final say in the audio setup.
I would then remove all of the buttons from the mixing board. All 300 of them...lol. :lol:

Woooow...that stinks.
I've considered hiring a professional to come in and setup our audio one time at a choir/band rehearsal night and have that be the final say in the audio setup.
I would then remove all of the buttons from the mixing board. All 300 of them...lol. :lol:


Yeah the funny thing is that our church HAS already paid a guy to set it up. Guess what happened the service following....yup, our wonderful sound guy tweaked it all back to his own settings.

Yeah the funny thing is that our church HAS already paid a guy to set it up. Guess what happened the service following....yup, our wonderful sound guy tweaked it all back to his own settings.

Ah geez....that stinks!!!
Un-be-lievable...that is just so typical. Guess he didn't get the memo...:shock:

Milk-out-the-nose funny!!!

I learned to play guitar in the 1970s and 1980s, and I don't have a tap delay. (Which makes me quite a strange creature on the team!)

Hehe, glad you enjoyed it. :grin:

I currently don't have a tap delay either but i hear they make things a LOT easier.

I think churches (ALL churches) should use a sound level meter and NEVER let ANYONE play at unhealthy sound levels. Then each instrument can really be heard best. You really cannot enjoy any church band when the overall volume is obnoxious. When you hear everything in the mix it's just soooooo much better and fun to play. I am so tired of hearing a really lousy mix where some instruments are real loud and others are setting all over the place in the mix... tone wise. That is something a lot of guys don't take into account.
You have to set tone on instruments to complement the band. A lot of people occupying the same tonal range sounds like a muffled mess.

I wish we had another sound guy...
Besides me I mean. I have a slight idea of how the audio is supposed to work, but I wish we had a trained guy to handle it. I can't teach someone what I don't know.

Our mix is like this.

Our mix is like this.

Whoa, kewl!
Great graphic! I found a "Church A/V and Music" seminar that is being given in DC at the end of this month. I'm taking my registration money, the videocamera and my gear and getting some teaching.

Hopefully I'll bring back something that the other brothers and sisters on here can use. :mrgreen:

And don't forget to pedal 5 and use "2" chords, as in C2, in every single song.....

Cool chart...... I modified it to show how our mix is divied up.....

This was one of the funniest posts I've seen. I think we can add, "Never tune your guitar in between songs or while the worship leader is talking." lol

This was hilarious to me becuz I just left our worship band not too long ago for many of these reasons after 4 yrs of playing. The last 2 was the hardest bcuz they hired a new leader who just graduated music ministry, is about 23 yrs old, the youngest in the whole group and has no clue how to lead, coach, teach, manage, anything...just a good musician/drummer, now playing acoustic guitar and singing, holding all the power of a worship pastor.

We have since lost many more people and his "my way or the highway" attitude is overwhelming everyone. Everytime someone tries to talk to him about it he twists everything around until its the other persons fault and takes no responsibility for the breakdown of the team...now im just venting...i digress.lol Guess it's time to go play elsewhere. Do all churches have a crappy sound tech, must be a pre-requisite.lol

And don't forget to pedal 5 and use "2" chords, as in C2, in every single song.....

So true, it makes me cry haha. Just listen to the I and V chords then just do inversions for those relative keys and BAM! You sound like "hillsong" haha.

I wish we had another sound guy...
Besides me I mean. I have a slight idea of how the audio is supposed to work, but I wish we had a trained guy to handle it. I can't teach someone what I don't know.

I recommend just to visit the tech savvy site or youtube and find basic tutorials for live mixing.

I can say from many years experience the hardest factors in live mixing are:

* EQ (EVERY time the song changes)
* Volume rides (EVERY few seconds)
* Panning (even though it may not have as much effect in live as it does studio it can still be the ingredient that makes the mix sound pleasent or disasterous)
* Room acoustics (overall tonality)
* YOU! (i suggest listening to the lineup beforehand so you can get a grasp on where the 'obvious' volume levels change and how the instruments are in the EQ spectrum)

DON'T WORRY about the outboard effects and proccessors for now they arnt fundamentaly important just get those down pact and you'll
be doing everyone a favour.)l)

This makes me really appreciate my current worship situation. :)

Whew! I don't do church music anymore for all the above reasons.

Not to blast anyone's religious choice...but I just don't think churches can attract the talented musicians anymore - that's why secular music has so much more talent in it. You can't call someone talented just because they can play the same arpeggio in 3 different keys.

Between the Senior Minister running the mixing board from the front row to the worship team not able to meet for rehearsal or even practice on their own to learn the music I couldn't take it anymore.

Then a splinter group formed a christian rock band and recruited me. It was a breath of fresh air! We did so much better; sounded better; people liked us more than the worship team. Guess what? The Senior Minister canned us. So we reformed outside the church under a different name. Then went on mini tours and made CDs. Made good money, sold a lot of T-Shirts, helped with the salvation of thousands. Then the bass player had a kid and everything went to hell, so I joined the Navy.

Well, that was that.

Oh well, gotta post this so I can clear my head. Frustrations with our Praise Band include an overzealous "lead guitar" player who plays too loud, does not learn the "jangly" parts to songs we play like Hillsong,Baloche,and Tomlin. He instead plays the same rhythm chords I play on acoustic. Then...has the nerve to come late to practice by 40 min. and proceeds to tell us how the song should go. errrrrrgh.... I send sheet music with accompying YouTube videos of each song to them 1 week in advance so they have time to learn their parts. Drummer is 9 years old and trying, but he's a 9 year old. He can keep a basic beat which is fine, but tries the drum roll stuff on Hillsong songs and gets caught behind the beat. Bass player CAN be good but is tonedeaf and always flat. Bass out of tune. Really doesn't learn his parts just plays by ear and cant read chord charts I don't think. Me....I'm not a professional guitar player but I do learn my correct parts and chords and play the songs as written. No fancy stuff, just a steady and syncopated rhythm, in time and in sync with the songs as should be. Why is it so hard to get others to follow. I can't get them to practice on time at 8:00 Sunday morning to run over the songs. But......I just do my thing, raise my hands to the Lord in worship as I lead the congregation and let the rest of the band follow me. When they can. Sometimes its easier and better with just an acoustic guitar alone instead of all the other banging going on.

Whew! I don't do church music anymore for all the above reasons.

Not to blast anyone's religious choice...but I just don't think churches can attract the talented musicians anymore - that's why secular music has so much more talent in it. You can't call someone talented just because they can play the same arpeggio in 3 different keys.

Between the Senior Minister running the mixing board from the front row to the worship team not able to meet for rehearsal or even practice on their own to learn the music I couldn't take it anymore.

Then a splinter group formed a christian rock band and recruited me. It was a breath of fresh air! We did so much better; sounded better; people liked us more than the worship team. Guess what? The Senior Minister canned us. So we reformed outside the church under a different name. Then went on mini tours and made CDs. Made good money, sold a lot of T-Shirts, helped with the salvation of thousands. Then the bass player had a kid and everything went to hell, so I joined the Navy.

Well, that was that.

Sorry to chuckle....but ain't that life? heh heh heh

Sometimes it's the sad truth.

Early this year I left a situation like that after struggling to try to deal with it for a couple of years (I was there for 3 years before that where the folks were really committed & worked as a unit but one-by-one their life situations led them to various out-of-area transfers, etc and over time we ended up with a group of people who liked the idea of being on a praise team but who never practiced on their own, rarely showed up for practice on time or prepared and didn't seem to show a passion or desire to listen to or learn praise music and after a year on that PT, I needed to get out & find some folks who are committed to the Lord in that ministry).

Am now playing in a great situation where it's an acoustric guy who also does lead vocals but more importantly LOVES the Lord, loves serving Him in this ministry & loves praise music and me with my Tele & singing background vocals.

I really miss the idea of having a bass & drums, but having been in both worlds, I'll take this "sparse but committed" one over that "large but lackadaisical" one!

...but I just don't think churches can attract the talented musicians anymore...

I've had the great fortune to play with some incredibly talented musicians in a number of churches in my area...just sayin'.

Why is it so hard to get others to follow.

If you're the leader, then you have to BE THE LEADER. Set firm ground rules & realistic expectations for your team, and hold them to 'em. If one of my team showed up 40min late to rehearsal, they wouldn't play... but they already know that, so it's not an issue. Same with rehearsals in general... if they aren't at rehearsal, they don't sing/play for the service. It eliminates a lot of drama, and is fair for everybody.

Do you only rehearse right before service? We rehearse on Friday night for a couple of hours for Sunday morning's services... there's really no way to address problems & work stuff out right before service.

I "inherited" a really sloppy team from the previous worship leader, and it took a while to get them excited about doing well... once that happened, they started holding each other more accountable for being on time & knowing their parts. It didn't happen overnight, though, or without any confrontation. Also, it doesn't hurt to do a solo/acoustic guitar thing once in a while... I've found that when the band sees you do well by yourself, it encourages them to do better as a band.

Thank you for the suggestions on my situation. I know there are thousands of others who are experiencing the same thing. But...you are right. Time to stand up and not be afraid to hurt anyones' feelings about committment, practice, etc.. Time to put the Lord first and make a committment to present the best music to Him and the church, so others may come to know and accept Jesus through our worship ministry.

I think it's sad that you took an hour to write this, proof read, edit the 1st draft and then check it daily to see how many responses you've gotten...

Talk about late to the party

Time to stand up and not be afraid to hurt anyones' feelings about committment, practice, etc..

It's always going to be a bit of a balancing act... As the leader, you need to be firm & keep the team growing in the right direction, while at the same time showing grace to your team members. Most of the time, if you're honest, fair, and communicate with your team, you can avoid hurt feelings. Our WT spends a lot of time talking & praying together, and we've learned to communicate well with each other... that solves a lot of problems before they start.

Also, I don't allow any drama. :mrgreen:

>>>...but I just don't think churches can attract the talented musicians anymore... <<<

I couldn't disagree more. In a number of different churches I'm familiar with in our general area, there is an unbelievable WEALTH of awesome talent in the church.

I've had the great fortune to play with some incredibly talented musicians in a number of churches in my area...just sayin'.

I have too, in Washington, DC. But not in my part of Tennessee. Guess the available pool size matters. All the talent in TN seems to be in secular music.

Talking about local churches, not the Pros in Nashville.

It's always going to be a bit of a balancing act... As the leader, you need to be firm & keep the team growing in the right direction, while at the same time showing grace to your team members. Most of the time, if you're honest, fair, and communicate with your team, you can avoid hurt feelings. Our WT spends a lot of time talking & praying together, and we've learned to communicate well with each other... that solves a lot of problems before they start.

Also, I don't allow any drama. :mrgreen:

Amen. My sincerest thanks. Keep us in your prayers.

Amen. My sincerest thanks. Keep us in your prayers.

I most definitely will... feel free to PM me if you need to talk. Also, there are a couple of books on leading worship teams that have really helped me, that I highly recommend:

Worship Matters by Bob Kauflin

The Heart Of The Artist by Rory Noland

I will certainly check those out, indeed. Thanks for the offer to PM. Might need to soon. :-)

Sorry to chuckle....but ain't that life? heh heh heh

he he he. Yeah, I still chuckle about it myself.

The Senior Minister was later run out of town because of tax evasion and misappropriation of funds. :mrgreen:

He later formed another church of the same type in another state. :rolleyes:

If you're the leader, then you have to BE THE LEADER. Set firm ground rules & realistic expectations for your team, and hold them to 'em. If one of my team showed up 40min late to rehearsal, they wouldn't play... but they already know that, so it's not an issue. Same with rehearsals in general... if they aren't at rehearsal, they don't sing/play for the service. It eliminates a lot of drama, and is fair for everybody.

Do you only rehearse right before service? We rehearse on Friday night for a couple of hours for Sunday morning's services... there's really no way to address problems & work stuff out right before service.

I "inherited" a really sloppy team from the previous worship leader, and it took a while to get them excited about doing well... once that happened, they started holding each other more accountable for being on time & knowing their parts. It didn't happen overnight, though, or without any confrontation. Also, it doesn't hurt to do a solo/acoustic guitar thing once in a while... I've found that when the band sees you do well by yourself, it encourages them to do better as a band.


You are very lucky and skilled to have it work out so favorably. I think in many churches this approach leads more to politics and pride than to constructive reform.......unfortunate, but I've seen it, even hints of it in my own church. If our WL took this approach, he would end up playing alone every Sunday, with me on electric once or twice a month. Everybody else would shrink back into the corners and shadows.

But everyone of them has several legendary classic rock songs and lyrics memorized note for note, word for word, and they have no trouble at all showing up to the rock concerts early......sometimes with beer and pretzels in hand, ready to rock!!

Why is it so hard to get others to follow. I can't get them to practice on time.......etc....

See johntodd's reply above yours......I cant explain what it is, but there is definitely something about church P&W that keeps the most talented faithful from participating. Some of the best band music I've ever heard was at church......and, unfortunately, the worst band music I've ever heard was at church. :shock::roll::confused::confused:

Then a splinter group formed a christian rock band and recruited me. It was a breath of fresh air! We did so much better; sounded better; people liked us more than the worship team. Guess what? The Senior Minister canned us.

I've been trying to interest some musicians from church to start a gospel rock band that would play outside the walls. So far I've been almost stunned by the complete lack of interest. Even the single people who can actually play and have time to put into it turn a deaf ear when the subject comes up. I'm just as glad as the next person to get my 1x or 2x a month turn at worship band particiaption, but lately I have always come to the same conclusion.......we are, 99% of the time, playing for the choir in our own house. We are not taking any musical message out to the world, we are waiting for the world to come to us.

I'm ready to hit the local Bandmix web site to find some people who want to take this brand of music out to meet Joe Public on his own ground. I fear that starting a P&W band using church musicians might lead to the same end result you ran into......they would at the very least tell us that we cannot associate the band with the church name.

+1 SoundChaser - I'm in the same boat you're in right now - been looking for a few months now for folks who are really interested in taking it out. NO takers. Everyone is comfortable keeping it confined to Sunday AMs inside the 4 walls from what I've found so far.

I've been doing the "church band" thing for almost 2 years now.
I still don't understand people. Sometimes I have days where I wonder why I try to stay in it. It all comes back to my love for God and giving myself and my talents to His work. I have found that I can manage to forgive and understand the issues within my own church, and accept them as par-for-the-course.

I'm not good at playing outside with other churches' music groups and saw all the same issues you all talk about during my first year in the band. It stopped me from playing out at church events and frankly, I'm happier for it.

Sometimes I wonder why people are in their church band/choir if they don't have the heart for worship or even for music. A lot of times, there is just no passion....like it's forbidden or wrong or something. I have stopped looking for a christian band to play with outside of church because of this issue. I don't know why church musicians are so flakey but something is seriously wrong in the area that I live in. Whether single, married or whatever...no one seems to have any gumption to pursue music.
I just don't get it...

May I suggest you keep seeking, keep knocking, etc? I would LOVE to rock outside the house, but right now I couldn't fit a band into my schedule if I wanted to. I have to step out of our worship team community for about the next 6 months or so just to fit school, work, a missions trip to India and a couple of leadership projects for school in. Yes, it's going to be hard to give that up, especially since I feel like I'm finally getting a grip on the whole thing.

My best friend fronted a Christian cover band back in the '90s that we all had a pretty good time with. He's been leading worship ever since, but still has the itch, so he's gathered a bunch of folks and they play coffee houses like once a month or so.

Sometimes I wonder why people are in their church band/choir if they don't have the heart for worship or even for music. A lot of times, there is just no passion....like it's forbidden or wrong or something. I have stopped looking for a christian band to play with outside of church because of this issue. I don't know why church musicians are so flakey but something is seriously wrong in the area that I live in. Whether single, married or whatever...no one seems to have any gumption to pursue music.
I just don't get it...

I find that passion is something that's hard to find in many churches. It seems to be viewed with suspicion as something that may lead to something sinful. As Van Morrison said, "Conservatism leads to boredom once more.".

John Eldredge has written a very good book about passion called, Desire.

You are very lucky and skilled to have it work out so favorably. I think in many churches this approach leads more to politics and pride than to constructive reform.......unfortunate, but I've seen it, even hints of it in my own church. If our WL took this approach, he would end up playing alone every Sunday, with me on electric once or twice a month. Everybody else would shrink back into the corners and shadows.


I don't understand how you figure requiring band members to be at rehearsal would lead to pride & politics? In my experience, it's quite the opposite. The pride comes in when folks think they're too good, and don't need to rehearse with the rest of the team. The politics come in when some folks put the time in at rehearsal, and then the leaders lets someone sing/play that didn't put that time in... what kind of message does that send? If your team members are going to "shrink back in the shadows" because they are required to come to rehearsal, they probably should be involved in a different ministry... but most ministries require some level of commitment & preparation. :wink:

I cant explain what it is, but there is definitely something about church P&W that keeps the most talented faithful from participating.

The talented folks I know that have gotten discouraged with worship ministry have done so because of poor leadership & a lack of commitment & discipline by the team members (which again is a sign of poor leadership). You attract talented & faithful people to your worship team by building a team full of talented and faithful people... which means requirements for serving. It requires hard work and commitment on everybody's part (including the leader, who needs to set the example!), but it's the only way a WT can grow & improve in the long run.

I found a church that was dying for a guitar player who would "compliment" what they were doing. Pretty much chords and fills on acoustic guitar and every once in a while I get to use my Tele.
In the past every other guitarist they had tried wanted to be the whole show; sort of Saint Jimi Hendrix or something. I feel lucky to be a "fit". We use a piano, sometimes a keyboard, flute, and yes drums played by a 17 year old who actually plays tastefully. You can actually hear the individual instruments and the singers...what a concept.

I found a church that was dying for a guitar player who would "compliment" what they were doing. Pretty much chords and fills on acoustic guitar and every once in a while I get to use my Tele.
In the past every other guitarist they had tried wanted to be the whole show; sort of Saint Jimi Hendrix or something. I feel lucky to be a "fit". We use a piano, sometimes a keyboard, flute, and yes drums played by a 17 year old who actually plays tastefully. You can actually hear the individual instruments and the singers...what a concept.

Count your blessings man...count your blessings.
:grin:

I don't understand how you figure requiring band members to be at rehearsal would lead to pride & politics? In my experience, it's quite the opposite. The pride comes in when folks think they're too good, and don't need to rehearse with the rest of the team. The politics come in when some folks put the time in at rehearsal, and then the leaders lets someone sing/play that didn't put that time in... what kind of message does that send? If your team members are going to "shrink back in the shadows" because they are required to come to rehearsal, they probably should be involved in a different ministry... but most ministries require some level of commitment & preparation. :wink:

The talented folks I know that have gotten discouraged with worship ministry have done so because of poor leadership & a lack of commitment & discipline by the team members (which again is a sign of poor leadership). You attract talented & faithful people to your worship team by building a team full of talented and faithful people... which means requirements for serving. It requires hard work and commitment on everybody's part (including the leader, who needs to set the example!), but it's the only way a WT can grow & improve in the long run.

Wow, I feel this happening at my church. We haven't had Choir & Band Rehearsal in about 4 months or more. Everytime it is scheduled it gets cancelled. You can hear it in the choir and in the music. We sounded so much better when we had an idea of what was going to be played the next sunday. Now, everyone just wings it to the point that people in the choir don't even know the words to the song that the song leader is singing. Like last sunday, she picks up some obscure song that she heard on the gospel radiostation that (apparently) no one else has heard of.

It's real embarrassing when what is supposed to be a FULL TEAM SONG turns into an Acapella solo with no backup singing or music. All because of a lack of leadership and time put in directing the choir she is supposed to be in charge of. I can understand singing something that's on your heart, but don't expect everyone else to instinctively know what you're doing.

Man, everything is just falling apart.

Our keyboardist, who has been at the church since he was able to sit in front of the keyboard, is even looking for someone else to play at our church this upcoming sunday because he is finding other churches and events to play at that have more talented members/guests playing with him. I can't blame him, but it's sad to see. Especially considering he is the pastor's son and has been with the church from the start.
:sad:
We have had our disagreements, but It's sad to see him begin to explore his options. Not because of any jealousy or anything but if it's gotten so bad that HE wants to go somewhere else, I know that what I've been feeling is not wrong.

This may open up a good window for me as the guitarist if the next keyboardist knows how to share the soundspace. :mrgreen:
We can add a bass player and actually have a proper worship band.

Thighbanez I do feel very lucky! This is not the church I belong to, I just play with the Praise Band twice a month. They treat me very well and respect what I am able to bring to the table. I am not a great player (truth) just adequate, but I have a "feel" for arranging and that's in large part what I contribute. The rest of the gang are very talented and I truly am there to "add some guitar spice". It's very rewarding, no egos and most of the time sounds great for the congregation and the Man upstairs.

Surely, this HAS to be a joke, right?

Of course it's a joke (although with a lot of truth, which is why it's funny) and the self-righteous and judgemental responses are exactly why people stop posting in the worship forum. Get a clue, people. God gave you a sense of humor, so use it occasionally. Now I'm going back to the secular forum where people know how to laugh.

Actually, I think this forum exists largely to give folks who play in church somewhere to rant/vent. I'm blessed to be in a church with a large community of musicians and 5 full worship teams. Not bad for about 400 members, eh?

We play every week at the second service, It's our Praise and Worship service and most of the time all is good. Often, I have the opportunity to play a "Voluntary" during communion, but it didn't start out that way, I asked for it.
Now, I have an advantage because I'm also the lead male singer, but when I was given the chance, I played "The Heart of Worship", learn it. The lyrics tell it all. The best thing is that along with having a strong message it's a beautiful song. When you play it and you mean it, well, you'll see.

Carl.

It took a long time before I could sing that song without crying.

It took a long time before I could sing that song without crying.

Me too my friend, that is the power of the message...
There are a few songs that get to me and as one of the lead singers I get thru them with help from the other singers and from the congregation...
Sometimes I need to lead a prayer or read a scripture after a song that has just bared my soul, and if I can't do it because I'm choked up, our Pastor just steps up and does it and I sit down knowing people around me feel it too and I'm grateful God touched us.

Thighbanez...WOW! Just WOW!!! Talk about hitting the nail on the head! I could've written this myself! This seems to be the common mindset of churches who were in the first wave praise & worship movement still today. I grew up in a church where we'd have 12+ musicians onstage. Piano, fiddles, banjos, mandolins, bass, drums, steel guitar, and several guitarists playing everything from rhythm to Chet style & chicken picking. Several fairly notable musicians too, one of those guys is a builder for Gibson, two have studio's in Nashville, one played banjo for a pro bluegrass band for several years, we even had Molly O'Day from time to time. Old timey I know, but I like rock too! Lol. Then we left that church for spiritual reasons and God put us in a spiritually amazing church, the word was awesome, and they had a modern praise & worship service, and I hated it! I was used to real music, made & played by real musicians! A piece of me died inside, losing that musical atmosphere in my life. And I still hate most praise & worship music as a style. I love it in that it glorifies God lyrically, but there's no musicality to it, it just sounds like noise to me. It's just sound. It doesn't have to be that way! Doesn't God deserve the best music we can possibly give him? No matter what style it is? After all He made the stuff for the purpose of praising & worshiping Him, gave us the gift & ability to play, SO LET'S DO IT! I've been where your at, Hang in brother. God will lead you where he wants you. And this is freaking HILARIOUS! I am going to use this post! Lol!

@TwangBilly: Glad you enjoyed it brother. I hope it can help others laugh too. In my trials with playing at church I've looked back on this post many times and it has helped me keep a bit more of a lighthearted approach when I enter the church to play.

For the past ten yrs. I've learned songs that can be played at any level. I can play leads clean as well as overdriven. I like biker churches as they like guitar playing. I play festivals with my Marshall stack and play at church with a 20 watt amp (turned down to 5 watts).

This was amazing! Thank you! Comedy is at it's most hilarious form when it is 98% true...

It's sickening because this is EXACTLY the way I feel, and I can't do squat about it :sad:

And this is freaking HILARIOUS! I am going to use this post! Lol!

That's what I thought too, but be careful. I thought it was perfect also, hilarious, I laughed a lot when I read it. But then I shared it with a couple of people from our worship teams and they took it completely wrong. They wondered what his beef was, why is he tearing it up like that, what a sour attitude, etc.

I personally believe it was simply some "conservative" type of attitude they have where they think all things "worship" oriented are supposed to be like sugar coated chocolate coated nuts, all soft and gentle and extra polite and syrupy and gooey on the outside, with a little chewy meat on the inside if you want to bite into it for some odd reason. I guess I understand how their personal POV could get that out of it, but I think it said a lot more about them than it said about the poster. For instance, I don't think our church would handle it well if someone like Lincoln Brewster showed up to lead a service cuz Lincoln doesn't chocolate coat his musical praises. It would be more like Stevie Ray Vaughn playing for the Vatican.

I loved it, and I think I "get it" but just be thoughtful in how you share it. :cool:

In my experience, the people rubbed wrong by the note I posted are usually the ones that the note is talking about.

Look, I love being a Christian and being saved, but I refuse to deny the fact that I get angry, upset, jaded and hurt just like any unsaved or non-christian human.

People that act like they're so above human feelings and that everything is always just peaches and roses and unicorns with rainbows coming out their butts are so full of their own fakeness they can't smell it anymore.

But let something go horribly wrong in their life like death, cancer, bankruptcy or divorce...

They find out real quick that they cry too.

Just like the rest of us.

In my experience, the people rubbed wrong by the note I posted are usually the ones that the note is talking about.


I wasn't rubbed the wrong way by it, just didn't thing most of it was funny. :wink: And you posted it at a time when you were also posting a lot of complaints about your church's worship team... I think some folks interpreted it as more bitterness than humor from you.



Look, I love being a Christian and being saved, but I refuse to deny the fact that I get angry, upset, jaded and hurt just like any unsaved or non-christian human.

People that act like they're so above human feelings and that everything is always just peaches and roses and unicorns with rainbows coming out their butts are so full of their own fakeness they can't smell it anymore.


Like I said... more bitterness than humor. :wink:

The thing is, there SHOULD be a difference in how you react/respond to things. As we mature, we (hopefully) tend to get less angry, upset, jaded, and hurt by inconsequential stuff, focus less on getting our own way, and become better at putting others first. Our focus should be different... it's that whole pesky "servant's heart" thing.

Deleted post.

Deleted Post

I wasn't rubbed the wrong way by it, just didn't thing most of it was funny. :wink: And you posted it at a time when you were also posting a lot of complaints about your church's worship team... I think some folks interpreted it as more bitterness than humor from you.

Like I said... more bitterness than humor. :wink:



I can understand that. I was very unhappy at that period and yes, that's the carnal side of me coming out around that time voicing my unhappiness.


The thing is, there SHOULD be a difference in how you react/respond to things. As we mature, we (hopefully) tend to get less angry, upset, jaded, and hurt by inconsequential stuff, focus less on getting our own way, and become better at putting others first. Our focus should be different... it's that whole pesky "servant's heart" thing.

Oh no man, I TOTALLY agree! We should be maturing in our journey towards the end. I'm just saying that it's insane to act as though nothing at all bothers you and everything is great. There is something that makes everyone upset.

It's a struggle to be accepted at our church too. We have a very traditional 8 am service and now (for almost 3 years) a Praise and Worship service at 11am.
I think some of the trick is to get the music to sound FULL without actually being too LOUD. Our church wasn't designed for a band to play in it. The pipe organ and choir are in the loft in the back... The Praise band ain't playin' up there! We have a big o' A frame sanctuary seats about 300, but no stage. We've taken some of the small side pews out near the front and created a kind of band area where we can be seen and heard, and we use a small old school PA with a 125w powered board and a couple of huge bins w 15 inch speakers and horns. I roll em' up front with furniture dollies before service, and we aim them at the front of the church, and bounce em' off the front wall back at the congregation. Full and big without being really loud. I also think the clearer we can get the message to the people the better it is received. So I save my radical stuff for the 2 piece psychedelic blues band I'm in with my son...

Funny. I had completely the opposite problem last week. We played at an outdoor service in a park with a new sound guy. My amp, the bass amp, and the drums were all mic'd and the keyboard was run through the system. At the end the sound guy told me I was way too loud through the entire service. Turns out he adjusted the wrong control on the sound board and turned the bass right off and me way up. It was kind of cool being the loudest instrument for once, but it also reminded me how important good, competant sound people are.

Funny. I had completely the opposite problem last week. We played at an outdoor service in a park with a new sound guy. My amp, the bass amp, and the drums were all mic'd and the keyboard was run through the system. At the end the sound guy told me I was way too loud through the entire service. Turns out he adjusted the wrong control on the sound board and turned the bass right off and me way up. It was kind of cool being the loudest instrument for once, but it also reminded me how important good, competant sound people are.


Hahahahaha, that's awesome (and sad at the same time) :twisted:

I would think though that he would notice "gee, the further I move this fader up the louder the guitar gets. Oh well, must be the guitarist's fault, I gotta let him know after the service." :mrgreen:

And yes, that is why I count myself fortunate to be allowed to have an un-miced amp on stage. :smile:

74 Deluxe's story reminded me of a church gig I played at a large camp. Sound man was furious at me for having my bass amp too loud and ruining the whole system, jumping all over me. I knew this was not true and started walking around checking it out. Turns out they had their mains disconnecting and the only sound on was the subwoofers....

ROFL SamClemons...that's too funny.

Wow... LOL. I just joined TDPRI and pretty much this thread was the first one I read thru from the beginning. I really enjoyed following the various discussions and cross talk, because so much I can relate to. So Thanks to Everyone!

My personal experiences and my own reactions have run the gamut. Thighbanez wrote: I refuse to deny the fact that I get angry, upset, jaded and hurt and I have to say this very thing is something I really couldn't get a handle on for myself for several years of P&W work. I went from feeling like I was entitled to be and show those emotions, to feeling like I must be horribly back-slid because I was even feeling them, to realizing it was OK that I felt them but surely must swallow them, to maybe finally doing it right: In your anger do not sin. Each stage I was at in this influenced how the challenges (so well stated in this thread) of the praise & worship format have affected me.

Today, most weeks I plays lead lines, fill ins, occasional solos, and sometimes, Nuthin'. I have been given freedom to "play prophetically" but use this offer sparingly. Our pastor likes it loud. He sits/stands in the front row during worship - one Sunday he yells up to me after the first song "Turn up the guitar!!" We are starting a Saturday night service in a month and I get to lead that band, in addition to keeping my role Sunday mornings. My wife tells me to play more often, not telling me I play too much. So I feel blessed in my current situ. But this is all fairly recent... It was not always so, and the difference between the good and the bad times has been me.

<didn't want to make the previous post too long... so here is the next part>

So two weeks ago I was leading and decided to lead with my tele rather than playing acoustic. It was supposed to be a more rockin' set, lots of dynamics from very quiet to very loud, I was the only guitar so did mostly rhythm while I sang and did some instrumentals played over the bass and keys. Somehow in that a lot of the "challenges" everyone here has been relating too occurred. The biggest headache was when the regular sound tech who practices with us didn't show up that Sunday, didn't tell anyone, and his "backup" rolled in 5 minutes late and cruised into the soundbooth and proceeded to bludgeon the mix. The first song in the set ("Bless His Name" by Tony Sanchez) started out with me singing over only keys and I had arranged it closely like that Tony Sanchez version. The "backup" sound tech knew none of this because he missed all the practices and didn't even have a set list. We get to the part where the song takes off and when I am supposed to start playing the intro lead line but by then the backup tech had been trying to find my guitar in the mix, couldn't hear it so proceeded to just max my channel on the board. The leads just about blew the windows out, created a nice feedback loop in all the mics, and left me at first thinking I must have done something wrong so there went my playing confidence. The whole set was like that. But our little band are troopers we trudged through it, though I was crushed by the end.

A few years ago I would have probably ripped the techs head off and shoved it somewhere else. Now, well I had the same feelings about the experience but I was able to hear after the service positive feedback about "how amazing the worship was" etc etc leaving me thinking "were you all at the same church I was at??". Also, I was able to debrief with leadership after about how everyone can learn from this, and one result is more training for the sound techs. Who knows if it really changes anything.... But I did learn something else. God can take the horrible sound coming from the stage and do something to it before it hits peoples ears...

Or play at church with a pastor that's a famous studio rock musician...... that's what I do. I'm spoiled I know. ; )

Somehow I avoided reading this for a long time....so true on so many levels. I do use a capo on electric, but an adjustable one that doesn't mess up the tuning, it usually only when I am leading with electric too. I will admit when we play a song in a key like Eb, I will tend to mess up more just cuz I'm thinkin too much, and I tend to end up capoing on a song like that just so I can get full open chord sounds, especially if I'm the only electric in the mix. But I hope to get better at playing in the weirder keys b/c the capo can be a hassle in-between song transitions.

Hi guys, need some help here.

My church band is a real lean one..1 drummer, 1 keyboardist, 1 Acoustic guitarist, 1 bass. We have enough people who can play acoustic guitar (I am one of those) but no e-guitarist.

So, out of a self perceived need, I bought a e-guitar and a zoom multi-effect.
I wonder what should I be playing so that I don't drown the acoustic guy and blend in to the band.

If no sound man. You have to be dynamic. This is the way us old schoolers did. The band cuts back when the singer sings or the lead instrument plays. If you are louder than the acoustic part, your volume need decreasing. Use your ears to balance.

Hopefully the Acoustic is in the PA too... either way I'd be playing mild distortion/tube sound low in the mix with my GUITAR vol knob on 8. Then, when I need to be a little more "outfront", I roll my vol knob to 10. Me, low in the mix when I'm chording, a little more "upfront" for single note lines, arpeggios and leads. You can also do a lot of vol change with your pickup selector if you have one.

I'm sorry , can someone translate this into King James for me?????

If no sound man. You have to be dynamic. This is the way us old schoolers did. The band cuts back when the singer sings or the lead instrument plays. If you are louder than the acoustic part, your volume need decreasing. Use your ears to balance.

+1, even with a sound man where you're amped and not include in the mix. I have also learned to trust my own ears. It helps to record practices and services with something that records outside of the sound system, i.e., my Zoom H2. It gives a fairly accurate account of what the real sound is and gives me the feedback I need to know that what my ears are hearing is correct.

You spent much more energy composing that than I want to spend commenting on it.

Find a new church. Find a good worship leader and pastor that understand good music. Become a bandmaster, music director, or worship leader at another church. Instead of composing lengthy diatribes, get on your knees and spend that energy in prayer, listening intently.

5. Grow a sense of humor --God has one...

If no sound man. You have to be dynamic. This is the way us old schoolers did. The band cuts back when the singer sings or the lead instrument plays. If you are louder than the acoustic part, your volume need decreasing. Use your ears to balance.

+2

I've found it best to go by stage volume, and your worship leader really has to "lead" the band.. If you're playing direct, then you should have a good idea where you sit in the mix from your stage monitors, provided you have someone with decent ears listening to the FOH mix during rehearsal or sound check to give you good feedback on the overall level and balance.

Do you mind if I borrow this? It completely sums up why I quit playing in the praise band at my church and I would like to share it with a few friends.