Here we go again: "No amps on stage"

Every six months or so our Worship Leader gets a bug in his rear and decides that the guitar amps on stage are the root of all evil and all problems in the world could be solved if we just bought more Line 6 stuff (I mean Lincoln uses it so it HAS to be the best in the world right:?:).

Last time we tried some Line 6 shuttle control module and it was a very frustrating experience, I am not a tweaker and the number of knobs and the amount of time required to get a decent tone was irritating, and in the end the entire worship band (including the worship leader) admitted my amp still sounded better. And don't get me started on running my standard pedal board into the Line 6 thing.

Well yesterday the leader emails me asking me to start using a Tech 21 Liverpool in place of my amp. Appearantly one of the younger guys in the church let him borrow one and he says it sounds awesome and there is no need for amps anymore. :roll:

Well gee, glad he learned how to play guitar overnight and are now an expert on tone.

I am currently running a Dr. Z Carmen Ghia with the volume around 7 o'clock. This is an 18 watt amp and at 7 o'clock the sound is very low while staying warm and clean. I have the amp a foot in front of me, on it's back pointed directly at my head. Since the volume is so low I use pedals for OD, currently an OCD and a Maxon OD-9 (both quality pedals). We have a Sure 57 in front of it and everything sounds good through the PA. I stand next to the choir and when they are singing full blast they drown out my amp and I have to rely on the monitors to hear myself. The amp is NOT loud and is NOT a problem. It also sounds great.

I have used this setup for a long time, I have used this setup with major bands around town, I have used this setup for musicals and theatre events, I have even used this setup in most of the finer bars in town:lol:. Never have I had a complaint about volume.

So I tried this Liverpool out yesterday in an effort to be a "team player" and compared to what I currently use, it sucks. No way to be nice about it. It sounded OK using it in a clean setting, but as soon as I hit one of my OD pedals the thing sounded buzzy and thin. An hour of tweaking later and we didn't have any better results. Other band members who know nothing about tone (like the drummer :twisted:) started to comment on how my other amp sounds better.

So I got to be the bad guy and refuse to use the "awesome" amp simulator. My amp is one half of my instrument, if I can't use it they can feel free to replace me.

I am getting sick of amps being the target of worship leaders. I understand if you have some dolt that refuses to turn it down, but that is not all guitar players. Some of us have self control and low stage volume. I have my line in the sand and it is my amp.

Sometimes I think they just want to get rid of the amps because the "other church" in town got rid of amps and went to Line 6 stuff (I couldn't tell you if it sounds good or not because they have the guitars so low in the mix I can't even hear them). I mean seriously, what is the logic? you have 80 choir members on stage belting out as loud as possible, a full drum kit, bass amp, and 8 wedge monitors, and you single in on the 18 watt amp as the source of your trouble?

I would like to use this post to encourage all worship guitar players to insist on using the gear YOU like. Do NOT let someone force you to use bad gear just because "Lincoln uses IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Disclaimer: This post is not directed at those who currently use Line 6 or Tech 21 products and actually like them. I am happy for you, maybe your PA is better than ours. Maybe we got a bad batch of Line 6 and Tech 21 products. Seriously. I am happy for you. Please do not be offended, we are all different and have our individual preferences. My point of this post was that it should be YOUR choice to use the simulator, not a mandate by the worship leader.

I feel your pain, brother but....Our worship band consists of 3 keys, drums, bass, 1 acoustic guitar and 1 electric guitar. About 5 years ago, we eliminated ALL stage sound. No more amps for anyone and drums went electronic. We also, went 100% Aviom in-ear monitors for the band. Wedges are still out front for the singers. I was as reluctant as could be but tried to keep a good attitude and tried to make the best of it. I have to say that now, I wouldn't want it any other way. It is great to not have that stage noise. I'm still not very good at tweaking my Line 6 XT Live. But I've downloaded some really good patches from the Line 6 website and, over time, learned how to do some basic tweaks. And you know, that POD has some pretty good tones in it. But mostly, it's about the band and the service. We are televised, so I get to hear the music in that format and the band/music sounds much better than it used to be when we were amped. I know it's hard and I still to this day, miss playing thru my amps. But it's not about me. It's about the music and the worship. I would suggest praying about it and trying to have a good attitude. I think, like me, you will be able to at least get use to it enough to make it work. And, who knows, after some work, you might even start to like it.

But it's not about me. It's about the music and the worship.


I agree, but are we not supposed to bring our best before the Lord? Why take a step back and replace a handbuilt $1200 amp with a poor sounding $100 pedal? We are not televised, but I could see how that might change things. But I think anything that pedal can do, my amp can do with the low volume I use, no matter what it has to get to the sound board, be it mic or direct out.


I think, like me, you will be able to at least get use to it enough to make it work. And, who knows, after some work, you might even start to like it.

Not gonna happen. I already told the Worship leader to look for another player should he insist on eliminating my amp. I worked on my sound already, no need to start from scratch.

Be honest with me, do you really enjoy playing on a dead silent stage? Are you able to get into the worship as much as before? We are contantly talking about expressing our feelings in what we play and that has to be hard when there is no sound, only dead air, around you.

I know other musicians that when asked this question, can't lie to me, they all prefer how it "used to be". To be honest, guitar players put ourselves in this position, collectively, over the years. We should have been standing up to those that wanted to eliminate amps from the start. Add to that the "I have to have a full stack for my TONEZ" crowd and you have a recipe to get where we are now. It is time to stand up against this. I suggest compromise, low powered amps at reasonable volume levels is a good middle ground.

And the sound levels we are talking about on our stage are comparable to a moderate car stereo. The stage volume is really quiet already.

Could be that the liverpool just is your flavor. I use the Tech21 Blonde(fender) with my pedalboard at church and it works very well. I set it up kind of clean on the verge of breakup and leave it and it reacts well with my pedals. That being said, the tech21 pedals are not a Dr.Z and you'll never get them to sound as good that amp ,but they can do a reasonable job when needed. Another option would be micing the amp up off stage somewhere and getting it back through the monitor which might work better since you said once the choir is singing you have to rely on the monitor anyway. Good luck to you and I hope it works out.

Could be that the liverpool just is your flavor. I use the Tech21 Blonde(fender) with my pedalboard at church and it works very well. I set it up kind of clean on the verge of breakup and leave it and it reacts well with my pedals. That being said, the tech21 pedals are not a Dr.Z and you'll never get them to sound as good that amp ,but they can do a reasonable job when needed. Another option would be micing the amp up off stage somewhere and getting it back through the monitor which might work better since you said once the choir is singing you have to rely on the monitor anyway. Good luck to you and I hope it works out.

I was about to suggest he find himself a great pedal, as well. I use a V-Twin Mesa Boogie tube... it's a little pricey, but it's a great warm sounding pedal that can actually go straight into the board. It has a special switch just for plugging straight into the board. Mesa did their homework on this one.

Could you do what my church does?

1. Amps behind the stage, mic'd.
2. In-ear monitors.
3. Your problems solved.

I was about to suggest he find himself a great pedal, as well. I use a V-Twin Mesa Boogie tube... it's a little pricey, but it's a great warm sounding pedal that can actually go straight into the board. It has a special switch just for plugging straight into the board. Mesa did their homework on this one.

Interesting, I can't find the V-twin on the website. Do they still make it?

Still doesn't help with the stage volume as I will need to go through the monitors to hear. Seems like an expense to get the same result I have now.


ETA: I googled, it looks like they quit making it, but it is interesting, an all tube pre-amp designed to go direct to the board. I would actually give one of these an honest shot if I could find one. But I bet it sounds nothing like what I currently have.

Could you do what my church does?

1. Amps behind the stage, mic'd.
2. In-ear monitors.
3. Your problems solved.

But we have to ban the amps! :twisted:

In-ears are not in the budget (unfortunately). We tried putting the amp in a seperate room once. Someone thought it was left on by mistake durring a break. Flipped it off. We didn't find out until service. All parties agreed to leave the amp on stage after that. And again, the choir is louder than the amp on stage. I already have to pump it through the monitors to hear it, so eliminating the amp from the physical presence of the stage will do no good.

I really do not understand all of the deisres to remove the amp from the stage. The volume is so low already.

I have used this setup for a long time, I have used this setup with major bands around town, I have used this setup for musicals and theatre events, I have even used this setup in most of the finer bars in town:lol:. Never have I had a complaint about volume.

...

So I got to be the bad guy and refuse to use the "awesome" amp simulator. My amp is one half of my instrument, if I can't use it they can feel free to replace me.

...

I am getting sick of amps being the target of worship leaders. I understand if you have some dolt that refuses to turn it down, but that is not all guitar players. Some of us have self control and low stage volume. I have my line in the sand and it is my amp.



I agree with standing up for yourself. I really dislike when people try to "fix" something that isn't broken.

There are other places to play, other ways to serve.

I agree with standing up for yourself. I really dislike when people try to "fix" something that isn't broken.

There are other places to play, other ways to serve.

He started to backpedal after I suggested finding another player. I hated to do it, but I really was getting tired of it. And everytime he does this it detracts from rehearsal time and really puts me in a bad mood.

I think "bringing your best" has more to do with your heart than your equipment, bro, but I definitely empathize with you. I am a dyed-in-the-wool tube amp guy. But we HAD to do something about our stage volume for the benefit of our congregation...I must be one of those dolts that refuses to turn the amp down :wink:

We put everyone on in-ears, shielded the drummer, ran the bass direct, and tried a couple of things for us guitar prima donnas. I tried a PODxt, but like you with the Tech 21 thing, just couldn't get anything that was close to being comparable to my amp tone and feel. So we bought a couple of iso-cabs. Not perfect, but better.

Here's the truly ironic thing...even though I have the iso-cabs available and can play my amp rig, you know what I choose to play these days? The new POD HD stuff...I'm blown away by it. Yes, we have a very nice PA and monitoring system. Yes, we have a very good sound guy that can EQ the in-ears. I know I'm in the minority, but our in-ear mixes are so good that I would not choose to go back to a "live" stage at this point.

But vaughn4380, you up a good point in all of this. How you are set up with monitoring makes all the difference in the world. In-ears with individual mixes is one thing. Wedges on a shared mix is another...very difficult.

Bring a Marshall stack in for a few sessions, then when your bring the Z back nobody will mind :mrgreen:

But we HAD to do something about our stage volume for the benefit of our congregation...I must be one of those dolts that refuses to turn the amp down :wink:

I am having trouble comprehending this, if voices are louder than your guitar amp, how is it too loud?

What amp were you using? I can't imagine a situation where the amp just had to be loud. What do the singers do? Do they even hear the instruments on stage? And if you have a choir on stage, you are going to have stage volume, this idea of a "silent stage" is odd unless nobody sings in the church.

Bring a Marshall stack in for a few sessions, then when your bring the Z back nobody will mind :mrgreen:

You, I like how you think. :mrgreen:

Man! That is a ridiculous situation.
By the way, I like my Line6 XT-live alot, but I bet I would like your amp better. For some things that is.

When I've run into this mindset, I tell them that my amp IS a monitor. It's mic-ed and the folks out front hear what the mic is feeding to the PA system, but at the volume level I'm using, it's just functioning as an on-stage guitar monitor.

Tim

I made one of these for a church I used to go to and the guy had a MadCat turned up to 10 o'clock with no bleed.

http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm

I am having trouble comprehending this, if voices are louder than your guitar amp, how is it too loud?

What amp were you using? I can't imagine a situation where the amp just had to be loud. What do the singers do? Do they even hear the instruments on stage? And if you have a choir on stage, you are going to have stage volume, this idea of a "silent stage" is odd unless nobody sings in the church.

I have played a variety of amps, from multiple Fenders - Hot Rod Deluxe, Deluxe Reverb, Blues Jr to Dr. Z Maz Jr, Egnater Tweaker, Genz-benz Black Perl, down to a little 5 watt DIY amp I made. Yeah, you can turn them down and all of them are completely usable, but, there is a sweet spot with every single one of those amps that you just have to turn up to hit.

Our biggest problem was the drummer in my rotation, though. Young and very energetic (read heavy handed)...but unbelievably talented. Turning up the amps was more about hearing ourselves over the drums than even a tonal thing. We would regularly top 100 dB on the meter in services...in the back of the room. The poor people in the first few rows were getting pummeled. And for the sound guy trying to mix over the drums...impossible.

Look it is not about totally eliminating all sound coming from the stage. It is about giving the sound guy control over the mix without having to fight what is coming off the stage and allowing him or her to mix to a level that is comfortable for your congregation. Hey, we are still loud because most of our congregation actually prefers it...the difference is that loudness is controlled at the mixing board, not by 8-9 musicians on stage.

You may have very valid, logical points about the monitors being louder than your actual amp. Worship pastors trying to tackle the stage volume issue have to understand that it is a complex issue that isn't simply solved by removing amps for the stage. Most places can't make the jump overnight, though. I honestly think there is a part of the "quiet stage" learning curve where no one is happy, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and go through it. As usual, Tim is all over it. If you explain it to you worship leader just like Tim described, that's about the best you can do. But you have to remember that your worship leader has been placed over you. Like it or not, part of that service thing is submitting to those higher than you...even when you know you are right :wink:...you know, part of that whole persevering and refining thing that we all go through.

Um, who's Lincoln?

Um, who's Lincoln?

Lincoln Brewster, a pretty cool shred guitarist who also does P&W songs.

He also happens to use Line 6 products, which in turn makes every worship leader think their guitarist would sound just like him if they just buy the same pedal board he uses. :roll:

While he is very good, he is not my style.

When I've run into this mindset, I tell them that my amp IS a monitor. It's mic-ed and the folks out front hear what the mic is feeding to the PA system, but at the volume level I'm using, it's just functioning as an on-stage guitar monitor.

Tim

Thanks, I need to re-emphasize this to him.

While I dig Lincoln Brewster, the times I've seen him in concert he had HUGE stage volume. He uses the Line 6 stuff because he likes it, and because of it's portability, not because it does anything to lower the stage volume. He uses a couple of large amps on stage for "feel."

The best thing I ever did at church was to leave my amps at home, and switch over to a Tech 21 Blonde. I dial it in to sound like my '59 Bassman LTD and run my pedalboard -> Blonde -> PA... it sounds great (other guitar players whose opinions I respect have also told me this), and it has eliminated the constant stage volume/soundman complaint problems. I also got rid of the bass amp & am running the bass through a Tech 21 VT Bass pedal -> PA, with the same results.

Btw, flexibility can be a sign of maturity, and a great quality to have in ministry, especially since it's not about "us." If one of my team took the "my amp is one half of my instrument, if I can't use it they can feel free to replace me" attitude, I'd definitely feel free to replace them. :wink:

I use a Tech21 Liverpool...

NO offense taken!

In fact, I agree with you completely. If I had even the slightest bit of pull or influence at my church, I would be using an amp. The Tech21 is however the best way I've found to play direct to the board, if that is what you absolutely must do in order to play at all. Certainly better than the Line 6 amp models I've tried in the past.

Btw, flexibility can be a sign of maturity, and a great quality to have in ministry, especially since it's not about "us." If one of my team took the "my amp is one half of my instrument, if I can't use it they can feel free to replace me" attitude, I'd definitely feel free to replace them. :wink:


Now would that be mature? Do what I say or you're out? I did try the pedal with an open mind by the way. In fact I have tried three pedals with an open mind and they all have been poor when used with our system, the rest of the band and the worship leader have admitted this (reluctantly).

And the amp is one half of the instrument, like it or not it colors your sound.

Now about your blonde pedal, I found the Liverpool had a lot of fuzz with my OCD and Maxon, very brittle and reminded me of a cheap 80's metal sound. You say you run your pedal board into your blonde, any harshness with the ODs? Like I said, it was a decent sound clean, probably useable, but we do use moderate overdrive a lot and we can't go without it.

Also, what kind of PA are you using? Specifically speakers? I am wondering if our speakers at church are coloring the sound of these pedals at all and now I am curious what others are using.

I use a Tech21 Liverpool...

NO offense taken!

In fact, I agree with you completely. If I had even the slightest bit of pull or influence at my church, I would be using an amp. The Tech21 is however the best way I've found to play direct to the board, if that is what you absolutely must do in order to play at all. Certainly better than the Line 6 amp models I've tried in the past.

Thanks!

Have you tried asking? With the recent sub-one watt amps available I would have to think something could be worked out. An AC4 on the 1/4 watt setting would have to be useable. Heck, stick it in a giant tupperware bin with the lid on and you have a pseudo isolation cab. :mrgreen:

While I dig Lincoln Brewster, the times I've seen him in concert he had HUGE stage volume. He uses the Line 6 stuff because he likes it, and because of it's portability, not because it does anything to lower the stage volume. He uses a couple of large amps on stage for "feel."



This is also a great point, most anything sounds really good when cranked! I remember reading an interview with Yngvwie a while back and he was talking about his recorded sound. Seems he uses like three or four marshall amps, into a ton of 4x12 cabs, all located in a sealed cement room in his personal studio. The sound level has got to be insane, but it is this sound level that "makes" his sound. In essence the raw volume is his signature sound.

I have seen Lincoln only on youtube and I have to admit he sounds good. But now I wonder if a part of his tone is the volume level he uses with the line 6 stuff. maybe I should revisit the line 6 POD and just tell the sound guys we need to turn it up to "11". :twisted:

They may beg me to go back to the Dr. Z.

Now would that be mature? Do what I say or you're out? I did try the pedal with an open mind by the way. In fact I have tried three pedals with an open mind and they all have been poor when used with our system, the rest of the band and the worship leader have admitted this (reluctantly).


Nah, first would come lots of grace, along with trying to get you to be more flexible... if that didn't work, then you'd be out! :mrgreen:

Seriously, my perspective has changed a lot since I've been in charge (funny how that happens! :wink:), and occasionally something does come down to "because I say so" with the team. Thankfully, those times are very few & very far between... because we do all try to be flexible & roll with the punches. And trust me, worship leaders get punched almost as much as pastors! :shock:


And the amp is one half of the instrument, like it or not it colors your sound.

Now about your blonde pedal, I found the Liverpool had a lot of fuzz with my OCD and Maxon, very brittle and reminded me of a cheap 80's metal sound. You say you run your pedal board into your blonde, any harshness with the ODs? Like I said, it was a decent sound clean, probably useable, but we do use moderate overdrive a lot and we can't go without it.

Also, what kind of PA are you using? Specifically speakers? I am wondering if our speakers at church are coloring the sound of these pedals at all and now I am curious what others are using.

Sure, my amps color my sound, yet for the most part, I seem to always set them so I sound like me (whether I mean to or not). If I was a better player, it might be different. :smile:

The Tech 21 pedals are VERY sensitive to adjustments, so it can take a while to dial them in. I tend to always have one of my drive pedals on (Timmy for clean, Eternity for low gain, Zendrive for mid gain, Greer Black Fuzz for fun), so I have the gain on the Blonde set very low, about 9 o'clock. If I was going to use the Blonde by itself, I'd have the gain up higher. And because the Blonde reacts differently to my OD pedals than my amp does, I've had to dial in my pedals a little differently, too... the gain on all of them ends up being a little lower than I would normally use with my amp. I've got it dialed in now, though, to where it's very touch/volume knob sensitive, and it works well.

Our church is small, seats about 250; we have an older Mackie 24ch board & Mackie powered mains (15s w/horns), Yamaha monitors (12s w/horns), and Peavey monitor amps. My rig sounds better through the mains than through the monitors, but it's not so different that it's a problem. We don't have IEMs, so if it was a problem, I'd just get a better monitor (like a JBL Eon).



I have seen Lincoln only on youtube and I have to admit he sounds good. But now I wonder if a part of his tone is the volume level he uses with the line 6 stuff. maybe I should revisit the line 6 POD and just tell the sound guys we need to turn it up to "11". :twisted:

They may beg me to go back to the Dr. Z.

If you do experiment with the POD again, you can download LB's patches from his website... it might save you some time. He uses a 1966 Marshall Plexi setting that he's tweaked on the POD. Also, here's a good demo of the Liverpool with a pedalboard running into it (Brett's demos are what sold me on the Blonde):

INd2iJLRSaw

Lincoln Brewster, a pretty cool shred guitarist who also does P&W songs.

He also happens to use Line 6 products, which in turn makes every worship leader think their guitarist would sound just like him if they just buy the same pedal board he uses. :roll:

While he is very good, he is not my style.

Thanks for the education.

This video is just about the worst thing I've ever seen. IMHO, of course.
Nice guitar, I guess.

Good luck with your amp problem. FWIW, the Rev. Al Green has no problems with amps in church.

GiL6xqmMQoc

You know one of the things that's weird about this thread is that it almost sounds like stage volume isn't really the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong vaughn4380 but is this one of those situations where the worship leader just likes the idea of no amps on stage and can't even really articulate why he thinks it would be better? I think this is a case where I would say tell me what the actual problem is and allow me to come up with a solution rather than start with a solution you like and try to find a problem to stick it to.

Oh and I will say that I would be willing to go to a pedal but only if the drummer switches to electronic drums first. IMO all stage volume problems start with the drummer. I also probably wouldn't buy one of the dedicated Tech21 pedals, I'd go for the original SansAmp, that has the most parameters of control, enabling you to dial in your sound fairly precisely. Or I might go with a rackmount preamp like a Boogie Triaxis or something. But I just bought a boutique 5e3 tweed amp so I'd be about as cooperative with this as you are.

Anyway, hang in there, for all the nonsense, playing in church is still a great gig!

You know one of the things that's weird about this thread is that it almost sounds like stage volume isn't really the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong vaughn4380 but is this one of those situations where the worship leader just likes the idea of no amps on stage and can't even really articulate why he thinks it would be better? I think this is a case where I would say tell me what the actual problem is and allow me to come up with a solution rather than start with a solution you like and try to find a problem to stick it to.

Oh and I will say that I would be willing to go to a pedal but only if the drummer switches to electronic drums first. IMO all stage volume problems start with the drummer. I also probably wouldn't buy one of the dedicated Tech21 pedals, I'd go for the original SansAmp, that has the most parameters of control, enabling you to dial in your sound fairly precisely. Or I might go with a rackmount preamp like a Boogie Triaxis or something. But I just bought a boutique 5e3 tweed amp so I'd be about as cooperative with this as you are.

Anyway, hang in there, for all the nonsense, playing in church is still a great gig!

You nailed it! Like I said, the choir overpowers me, and they are about equal with the drums on some numbers.

How do you like the 5e3? I always thought that would be a good choice for a church amp.

You know one of the things that's weird about this thread is that it almost sounds like stage volume isn't really the problem. Correct me if I'm wrong vaughn4380 but is this one of those situations where the worship leader just likes the idea of no amps on stage and can't even really articulate why he thinks it would be better? I think this is a case where I would say tell me what the actual problem is and allow me to come up with a solution rather than start with a solution you like and try to find a problem to stick it to.

Oh and I will say that I would be willing to go to a pedal but only if the drummer switches to electronic drums first. IMO all stage volume problems start with the drummer. I also probably wouldn't buy one of the dedicated Tech21 pedals, I'd go for the original SansAmp, that has the most parameters of control, enabling you to dial in your sound fairly precisely. Or I might go with a rackmount preamp like a Boogie Triaxis or something. But I just bought a boutique 5e3 tweed amp so I'd be about as cooperative with this as you are.

Anyway, hang in there, for all the nonsense, playing in church is still a great gig!

Excellent assessment! When drummers have taste and a sense of dynamics, all of the rest of the instruments can blend quite nicely. We use small 15 watt SS amps and balance very well with grand piano, drums, sax, acoustic guitar and bass (through a 100 W. amp) in an old church with 50 ft dome and stone walls. No one has a problem with being too loud as we are all sensitive to dynamics.

I've had similar disputes in other churches re. placement of drums across the room from the bass amp with no monitors (because it looked cool) and then the inexperienced sound people and church elders asking why the band was not playing in sync....

This is a great thread. I'm the worship leader at our church and we've recently had some interesting audio turnover that's forced us to actually go back to amps on stage.
When I began 3 mos. ago we had in ears that had an incredible knack for being static laden and inefficient. we never had a good mix of instruments in them that made them usable in service. Then the main FOH board went crazy and had some kind of electronic static that was present in the mix regardless of the mic being used. This whole time we had my guitar, the acoustic gtrist, bassist, and keys all DI'ed into the FOH board. Monitors were not working then and getting a usable volume/mix on Sundays was tedious at best. Now we've gone from a 24 channel mackie to an 8 channel board that only has the VOX mics in it.
With the new smaller board I have monitors on stage (that are flying for lack of a better term) and the very first Sunday we used amps ( my PODXt live into a Roland KB amp) the congregation commented on how great our sound was and I can say that honestly I played better b/c I could hear my sound and blend better with the other instruments. We are going to have everyone in amps again this week until the "new" board comes in. My thought is if this is working well, (b/c the players are listening to one another and volume isn't an issue) then we keep it as is until such a time we need to change. BTW, I use a Dr. Z Z28 and pedalboard for my live secular band rig and have found I prefer my Pro Jr with the PoDxt for my live church sound. The PJ has enough volume to fill and due to it's size doesn't draw the ire of those easily intimidated by a normal size guitar amp.

I have had the same problem as you, except that it was true that when I wound up my little Victoriette (~something like 15 or 20 watts) to it's sweet spot, I was louder an anything on stage. So, I went the Line 6 route, and spent a lot of time not being able t hear myself. Ended up going to a Princeton Recording Amp. Not perfect, but I was able to hear myself, and keep the stage volume down, and have tube overdrive. Agreed, not quite as cool a sound as my Victoria, or your Z, but better for me than the Line 6.

BTW, while Lincoln Brewster used Line 6, he also has used the Fractal AxeFX. They run directly into the house board. I think he gets pretty good tones out of either product, but he has apparently done a LOT of fiddling with settings. He says he is using a Vox AC30 or a Marshall half stack (or a couple of half stacks!!!) for stage volume. It appears that his stage volume is pretty high.

Back to your problem, if your 18 watt Z on 7 is not as loud as the singers, etc (wow, my Vicky at 7 just blew everyone off the stage, but we have a small stage), then I would negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Hey, if the fact that Lincoln Brewster uses one is the criteria, I think I would push for the church to get me an AxeFX Ultra, a Liquid-foot controller and a Vox AC-30 for stage volume. LOL. I'm guessing that once they get alias of the price tag of that setup, they will be thinking they can live with the Z you provide.

Just a question, is there any way you could rearrange space so you ar further from the singers?

I have had the same problem as you, except that it was true that when I wound up my little Victoriette (~something like 15 or 20 watts) to it's sweet spot, I was louder an anything on stage. So, I went the Line 6 route, and spent a lot of time not being able t hear myself. Ended up going to a Princeton Recording Amp. Not perfect, but I was able to hear myself, and keep the stage volume down, and have tube overdrive. Agreed, not quite as cool a sound as my Victoria, or your Z, but better for me than the Line 6.

BTW, while Lincoln Brewster used Line 6, he also has used the Fractal AxeFX. They run directly into the house board. I think he gets pretty good tones out of either product, but he has apparently done a LOT of fiddling with settings. He says he is using a Vox AC30 or a Marshall half stack (or a couple of half stacks!!!) for stage volume. It appears that his stage volume is pretty high.

Back to your problem, if your 18 watt Z on 7 is not as loud as the singers, etc (wow, my Vicky at 7 just blew everyone off the stage, but we have a small stage), then I would negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Hey, if the fact that Lincoln Brewster uses one is the criteria, I think I would push for the church to get me an AxeFX Ultra, a Liquid-foot controller and a Vox AC-30 for stage volume. LOL. I'm guessing that once they get alias of the price tag of that setup, they will be thinking they can live with the Z you provide.

Just a question, is there any way you could rearrange space so you ar further from the singers?

The volume is at 7 O'clock, not "7" out of 10. For comparison, 6:30 is off on this amp.

The band is pretty close together right now, due to space, movement is probably not going to happen.

That recording amp has caught my eye in the past, it sends a direct signal right? Like the Line 6 stuff, only Fender's version. How is the sound quality out of it?

BTW: I love the Victoria stuff, they have a 5 watt amp with the single 12 inch speaker that is just awesome in a studio. Really cranks without ticking off the sound guy. Their twin is nice too. I had a tough choice going with a Dr. Z, it really came down to the Doc and Victoria for my final decision.

Now would that be mature? Do what I say or you're out? I did try the pedal with an open mind by the way. In fact I have tried three pedals with an open mind and they all have been poor when used with our system, the rest of the band and the worship leader have admitted this (reluctantly).

And the amp is one half of the instrument, like it or not it colors your sound.

Now about your blonde pedal, I found the Liverpool had a lot of fuzz with my OCD and Maxon, very brittle and reminded me of a cheap 80's metal sound. You say you run your pedal board into your blonde, any harshness with the ODs? Like I said, it was a decent sound clean, probably useable, but we do use moderate overdrive a lot and we can't go without it.

Also, what kind of PA are you using? Specifically speakers? I am wondering if our speakers at church are coloring the sound of these pedals at all and now I am curious what others are using.

Yep. Several times in fact. The problem is, our worship leader would actually prefer live amps for guitars and bass. The no amps rule is coming from higher up. Bottom line, it flat out is not going to happen.

oh well. At least the mix always sounds fantastic in my in ears. Though judging by what it sounds like in the congregation on my occasional off weeks, I'd say no one else has a clue how good the band could actually sound.

This has gotten to be an interesting thread. People do get ideas about how things should work and the idea of an ampless stage has an appeal in terms of production quality and control, it just doesn't work out like that. At least not without a whole lot of other things happening almost too many things than can be counted on. First on the list is a guitar player who can be happy clicking through presets rather than tailoring the sound from the guitar. Nevermind dialing in all those presets and having them readily available and programmed in a usable way. Then we get to find out how good the sound man is.

Wanted to comment on this, also:
Other band members who know nothing about tone (like the drummer)
IMO, drummers are worth listening to. They are outside the guitar gear syndromes and fads. If the emperor ain't dressed they'll call it. The most important thing about a guitar sound is how it drops into the mix and drummers, whatever else they may be, are dialed into how everything fits together.

As a worship pastor I think we may have missed something...(unless I missed it in someone else's post)

the Senior Pastor Factor...

Before I start let me say that I am not trying to blame or speak poorly of Senior Pastors, rather I am trying to show their "silent influence" on the worship ministry of most (if not all) churches.

As a worship pastor who has served at several church both volunteer and staff, traveling and permanent, often the Senior Pastor will "reach thru the worship pastor" at people on the team. If the Senior Pastor doesn't like the sound of the guitar or bass or a particular vocalist or ANYTHING they will have a "talk" with the worship pastor and then the worship pastor is forced to have to try and convey the Senior Pastors wishes with out "blaming" him, this leads to odd requests that are sometimes not clear in their motives.

I know for years when I served at one church I was always told the drummer was too loud, when ONE drummer played. It was never actually any louder, the Senior Pastor just didn't like the kid playing. Eventually the Senior Pastor admitted this to me (claiming the kid had "attitude problems") & that he didn't want him serving anymore.

I'm not saying this is what's happening in the OP's situation but it kinda sounds like it.

just my .02

I'm kinda in the reverse situation. I play every Wednesday and every other Sunday. Sunday is in the sanctuary and we've ALWAYS been a no-amp, quiet stage environment. Wednesday is a worship session/class and we've dropped from a full band to 2 acoustics recently. I've gone from the ToneWorks AX1500G to a growing selection of pedals to a loner Boss GT-6. Putting a Blonde or something at the end of my chain as an "amp" is where I want to go.

But, before things got shaken up and we went to two acoustics, they started letting the guitarists bring in amps. Both the other guitarist and I have Fender Frontman 25Rs. I put a CS3 first, a dirt pedal and a LPB so I could have a clean the same volume as my dirt. I had my volume set for all-but off but I could not get a decent clean, just buzzy and nasty, until I realized that I was hammering the front of my amp and I'd have to drop back to unity gain if I wanted to have anything near clean. If you don't push so hard with the pedals, does it help with the Liverpool?

IMO, drummers are worth listening to. They are outside the guitar gear syndromes and fads. If the emperor ain't dressed they'll call it. The most important thing about a guitar sound is how it drops into the mix and drummers, whatever else they may be, are dialed into how everything fits together.


Good point, and my comment was meant to be more of a light joke. No offense meant to drummers. Our drummer is one of the older members of the church and I highly respect his opinion. In fact, I will talk to him about things that bother me before commenting to anyone else, king of like a "head check" to make sure I am not in the wrong.

As a worship pastor I think we may have missed something...(unless I missed it in someone else's post)

the Senior Pastor Factor...



Yeah, we have had those requests too. Keeps things interesting for sure. I won't go on to keep myself from badmouthing the church. :wink:

The new POD HD series has a Dr Z amp model. I got a 400 a week ago, and am sold on this thing. I've been wrestling with the no-amp thing since moving to the bigger church about 5 months ago. I believe this is going to make me very happy.

Unlike a lot of folks, I find the feel and sound of this pedal very good. I've only used it through some decent, old Sony cans, so rehearsal tonight will tell the difference. I will probably only use a Plexi and Twin model, both fairly clean, with OD, tremolo and delay settings, pretty much straight from the factory at this point.

There's literally an infinite number of ways to tweak the sounds on this thing, so I have no doubt it's capable of sounding however I want it, if I want to spend the time. Based on the couple of weeks I used a Zoom G1 recently, the trick is picking one, or maybe 2 models, starting clean, and adding one or 2 effects, then getting comfortable and making minor adjustments as you go along, saving and backing up patches to compare later. Using a digital recorder to capture the live, room sound is good, if you are unsure of what's actually coming out.

Change is difficult, but if an old fart like me, who never used a pedal before a few years ago, can make the adjustment, it can be done....

P.S. I would learn to just use the POD and save your pedal board for when you get to take your Dr Z out. Simplify. Just organize the patches so the ones you need are bunched together. With the HD400, I can have 3 of the effects in any patch foot-switchable, so that gives me a couple dozen combinations of tones within a single bank of 4 patches. More than enough for a service.

Oh and I will say that I would be willing to go to a pedal but only if the drummer switches to electronic drums first. IMO all stage volume problems start with the drummer. Anyway, hang in there, for all the nonsense, playing in church is still a great gig!

I absolutely agree with this. The only reason to replace amps is to eliminate stage volume. If the drums aren't being replaced, then you're not being serious about eliminating stage volume. Drums create the worst part of stage volume. I would be hard pressed to have a good attitude about replacing my amp if the acoustic drums weren't also being replaced.

Be honest with me, do you really enjoy playing on a dead silent stage? Are you able to get into the worship as much as before? We are contantly talking about expressing our feelings in what we play and that has to be hard when there is no sound, only dead air, around you.

No, I do not enjoy the silent stage. But, I enjoy playing in the worship service and have just adapted to the circumstances. I've been going ampless now for 5 years and it still seems weird, if I let myself think about it. At first, it was very difficult for me, but I'm OK with it now. I still struggle sometimes but even amps can cause you to struggle with tone and feel. I guess the bottom line for me is that if the worship leader, who is a pastor on the church's staff, has decided this is what we're going to do, then I'm going to do what I can to help make it work. Our worship leader is a long-time professional touring/recording keyboardist that was with Third Day for a long time. He is sensative to this issue and also loves guitars and amps. He also knows what he's doing and how to get it done. I know what works for us doesn't mean that it's the only way and everyone needs to tackle this issue like us. There's other factors to consider. I don't have to emphasize the importance of a competent sound guy being involved. As you know, he can make or break any arrangement. If you don't have a really good sound guy, then stage volume can be really bad. There's so many ways to mess things up. Bottom line is just make sure that your heart is in the right place and that you are playing in the worship band for the right reason and you are guarding your heart from your ego. We all have egos and we all have to work to keep it in check. It should be ALL about the worship.

snip....




I would be more inclined to trust your WL over mine, not only does yours have a better understanding of live sound, he has real experience that got him there.

Unfortunatley ours has been caught in "falsehoods" before, is completely inexpexperienced with live sound, and is always looking for some tech gadget to blow money on. I feel he only wants to git rid of the amps for personal reasons (because others have done it and so should we darn it). I actually feel like I should stand up to him with honesty. In our situation (or through my incompetence) the pedal simulators are not sounding good through our system. I can't lie and say otherwise. The rest of the band agree with me.

And why does everyone ask if my heart is in the right place just because I disagree with the WL? I have been asked this numerous times by others at church. Just because I am honest about gear means my heart is wrong? I really did give these pedals an honest try.

We are not to follow ANY man blindly, especially when we think their motives are less than pure.

Good point, and my comment was meant to be more of a light joke. No offense meant to drummers. Our drummer is one of the older members of the church and I highly respect his opinion. In fact, I will talk to him about things that bother me before commenting to anyone else, king of like a "head check" to make sure I am not in the wrong.

I figured you meant that humorously. I mean we do all tell drummer jokes but still keep hanging out with these guys.

And why does everyone ask if my heart is in the right place just because I disagree with the WL? I have been asked this numerous times by others at church. Just because I am honest about gear means my heart is wrong? I really did give these pedals an honest try.

We are not to follow ANY man blindly, especially when we think their motives are less than pure.

I'm not literally questioning your heart or motives. You bring up a very valid argument on this thread and it is one that obviously many of us have struggled with. But, I bring up the heart/motive issue because we should always check our heart and motives when it comes to ministry and serving.
That doesn't mean that your heart isn't in the right place. Just that if you don't prayerfully consider your own motives, you'll never know and that can lead to problems for you and whatever ministry you are involved in. Whatever you're doing, you should never stop giving your heart a routine check up.

I'll do the pickin', and you do the preachin'.

That's my philosophy.

I'm not literally questioning your heart or motives. You bring up a very valid argument on this thread and it is one that obviously many of us have struggled with. But, I bring up the heart/motive issue because we should always check our heart and motives when it comes to ministry and serving.
That doesn't mean that your heart isn't in the right place. Just that if you don't prayerfully consider your own motives, you'll never know and that can lead to problems for you and whatever ministry you are involved in. Whatever you're doing, you should never stop giving your heart a routine check up.

Gotcha, agreed!

Concerning the in ear monitors: Did the church buy you your own personal pair or were you expected to pull a set from a box with many of them covered in raisin-like earwax? My church had mentioned doing this a few years back and when I mentioned the hygienic concerns I had about sharing them I was looked at like I was the devil himself. No kiddin'

Concerning the in ear monitors: Did the church buy you your own personal pair or were you expected to pull a set from a box with many of them covered in raisin-like earwax? My church had mentioned doing this a few years back and when I mentioned the hygienic concerns I had about sharing them I was looked at like I was the devil himself. No kiddin'

I see a bumper sticker: Shared ear buds are the Devil's raisins.

I can really feel for you....and as a worship leader that plays electric every Sunday I understand the pain of trying to balance everything...with that said I switched from a Bogner Alchemist a year ago to the Eleven Rack (Digidesign and now Avid--$650.00-$800.00). It is simply a medium priced alternative to the Axe-Fx ($1500.00-$2000.00 plus pedal board) and the HD stuff from Line 6 ($350-$500.00). It is by far the best "feeling" modeling I have ever experienced and it is a Protools interface too...we do not have "in-ears" so it comes back in my monitors....I do like the post above that mentioned asking what is the ultimate goal the WP is trying to accomplish so that you can propose a solution...perhaps a sign on the amp in the back room that says "do not touch upon pain of death" might help...

It's always a good idea to reflect on our heart motive. Having said that, it is a struggle dealing with leadership that isn't open to discussion. Lincoln Brewster is just one guy out of many. Why use his setup as the model? What about the majority that use amps? All you can do is try to suggest that he reconsider. Then be prepared to walk away and go on hiatus or find another place to worship. I did.

Heart motive... yatta yatta, all thats been said.. Now the practical part. An amp can be controlled! I do it with a half stack every sunday, not one complaint. Know your room, know your gear (meaning the tubes are still making sound at lower volumes and not just at 10) and know the gear in the room. Set up a rig accordingly. Stage noise is not a problem it just has to be pointed properly. The elimination of stage noise is to make up for a lack of work in setup and mixing.

Side note, all this is just my opinion of course, i just hear the same thing over and over when I toured churches and set gear up. 9 times out of 10 people are baffeled when they hear a good mix.

Final thought, the preamp, poweramp, speaker & mic are just as much a part of a guitar players signal chain as a pedal or the guitar itself. The sum of all parts gets the sound. Start pulling pieces of the chain out and its a comprimise, may not be a bad sounding comprimise, but none the less part of the chain is gone.

Now the practical part. An amp can be controlled! I do it with a half stack every sunday, not one complaint. Know your room, know your gear (meaning the tubes are still making sound at lower volumes and not just at 10) and know the gear in the room. Set up a rig accordingly.

I'm all about the practical side of things myself and don't disagree a bit. OTOH, too often we aren't dealing with practical issues, but rather prejudices and attitudes and expectations. And too often, misperceptions and ignorance. Some folks just don't understand that guitars should be heard. I'm sure you were told you were too loud the moment someone saw that half-stack - lot's of people listen with their eyes. You're lucky when people revise their opinions once they've actually heard the complete band in full song.

Me, I get told the guitar is too loud by someone standing in front of the amp who doesn't realize that the voices and instruments in the PA are spread across the FOH while my guitar amp is a point source and you won't hear a balance until you're out where people are sitting.

I'm all about the practical side of things myself and don't disagree a bit. OTOH, too often we aren't dealing with practical issues, but rather prejudices and attitudes and expectations. And too often, misperceptions and ignorance. Some folks just don't understand that guitars should be heard. I'm sure you were told you were too loud the moment someone saw that half-stack - lot's of people listen with their eyes. You're lucky when people revise their opinions once they've actually heard the complete band in full song.

Me, I get told the guitar is too loud by someone standing in front of the amp who doesn't realize that the voices and instruments in the PA are spread across the FOH while my guitar amp is a point source and you won't hear a balance until you're out where people are sitting.

Good point, when I first started playing at this church I received a very nasty attitude from one of the sound guys. I was setting up my gear one Sunday morning, the keyboards and the bass were messing around (i.e. playing loudly) and a sound guy walked up to me and informed me my amp was entirely too loud and I needed to turn it down before practice started. Before I could respond, the bass player interjected on my behalf and asked Mr. soundguy to at least wait until I had turned my amp on before lecturing me. I hadn't even flipped the power switch yet. That amp was like a red flag to a bull.

I come from the secular world as a musician and had a sound guy at a club done this my response would have been nasty. I didn't know how to handle it in a church setting. :oops:

My cousin also plays at his church, I had a conversation with him about the Boss ME70 last night. I guess he tried one out at their practice and didn't like the results, he said it really compressed the signal and cut his bass response. His worship Leader, like mine, would like to eliminate amps on stage but is at least seeking input from the guitarists in the band. He is thinking his next step will be to isolate a guitar cab in an adjacent room and keep the amp on stage. Unlike us, he has access to in-ear monitors should he want them.

Good point, when I first started playing at this church I received a very nasty attitude from one of the sound guys. I was setting up my gear one Sunday morning, the keyboards and the bass were messing around (i.e. playing loudly) and a sound guy walked up to me and informed me my amp was entirely too loud and I needed to turn it down before practice started. Before I could respond, the bass player interjected on my behalf and asked Mr. soundguy to at least wait until I had turned my amp on before lecturing me. I hadn't even flipped the power switch yet. That amp was like a red flag to a bull.



This. My church doesn't have a P/W team...we have a band. Sometimes we play there, sometimes we don't, and sometimes we go to other places to play. Anyway, the FIRST time we ever played at our church, it was in the gym (not the sanctuary) and I had my Valve Jr. the other gtr player had an amp about a similar size, normal acoustic drums, keys and the bass player with an Ampeg SVT4 with the 8x10" cab (vol. set low and incredibly good sound). BEFORE we played the 1st note, 3 people told me to turn it down. Grrr!

Anyway, people really do hear with their eyes in a lot of churches. That's something THEY need to get over. From what I've seen in this thread, you've gone out of your way to keep a reasonable volume while maintaining decent tone. Kudos. You've done nothing wrong and it's sad that some people who really don't play electric guitar feel the need to modify your rig and your sound. (Been there).

We play for an audience of One and for me that means as best I can, with the best rig I can, at a reasonable volume. If your amp is not aesthetically pleasing to someone else, well that's unfortunate. Keep doin what your doin.

I play in a very small church in the country. We bring whatever we need to play the songs. It sounds like many churches are very complicated. Being from a small one, some of these posts seem to describe churches that are concerned with pleasing the congregation (costomers) rather than simple praise. I like living in the country.

We play for an audience of One and for me that means as best I can, with the best rig I can, at a reasonable volume. If your amp is not aesthetically pleasing to someone else, well that's unfortunate. Keep doin what your doin.

But there's the rub... everybody has a different definition of best rig, reasonable volume, and aesthetically pleasing. When you are on a worship team (or in a band), you're working & playing together, trying to produce a cohesive result. Tough to do if everyone is only focused on themselves & their personal preferences.

Despite all of the comments to the contrary in this thread, situations like this do tend to expose heart issues more than gear issues. How we react to authority/leadership in situations like this shows where our heart is in ministry... there's no getting around it. Whether to use an amp or go direct isn't a moral decision, even though for some of us, it sure might feel like one. :wink: It is an opportunity though, to respond appropriately to a leader who irritates the crap out of us... that's the real test.

We play for an audience of One and for me that means as best I can, with the best rig I can, at a reasonable volume. If your amp is not aesthetically pleasing to someone else, well that's unfortunate. Keep doin what your doin.

I bet Jimi is playing a full stack, right now!

But there's the rub... everybody has a different definition of best rig, reasonable volume, and aesthetically pleasing. When you are on a worship team (or in a band), you're working & playing together, trying to produce a cohesive result. Tough to do if everyone is only focused on themselves & their personal preferences.

Despite all of the comments to the contrary in this thread, situations like this do tend to expose heart issues more than gear issues. How we react to authority/leadership in situations like this shows where our heart is... there's no getting around it. Whether to use an amp or go direct isn't a moral decision, even though for some of us, it sure might feel like one. :wink: It is an opportunity though, to respond appropriately to a leader who irritates the crap out of us... that's the real test.

But are we expected to respond to the WL (who is a man) with blind obedience? I would think not. A reasonable and honest conversation is not out of the question.

Especially when the only reason to remove an amp from stage is "because I say so". That answer throws truth out the window. If the amp is quieter than the choir, I really do expect a valid reason to remove the amp.

The reasoning of "do what the worship leader says or you are questioning God's will" is overused in my book. If the Worship leader had a valid reason, or an open heart on the subject, than the conversation would be different. Right now it is a control issue. And if he insists on controlling me under the disguise of "doing God's work" than I am out of here. I was asked to play, and I can leave at any time.

I have been nothing but honest and genuine through this whole conversation with him. I have tried his pedals out. I have tried moving the amp. I am still looking for alternatives. But I won't go with a cruddy replacement "just because". Leadership is beholden to God just like the congregation, they are not our overlords.

I simply wish to encourage other guitarsits to stand up for what is right. Now if the pedal/simulator truly works best and meets your satisfaction, than you should use it. But it doesn't work for everyone.

I bet Jimi is playing a full stack, right now!

I sometimes wonder if heaven is an endless wall of Marshall stacks, just waiting for me.

Concerning Lincoln Brewster's rig being considered ideal: Evidently it works well for him and yes he is a talented player, BUT we are all individuals and we should be trying to develop our individual sound. Nothing distracts me more than somebody trying to duplicate somebody else's tone to the most minute detail. Not trying to single Mr. Brewster out. Same thing goes for the Edge, SRV, EVH etc. etc. etc. Sure we all have our influences and preferences on what we think sounds good, but draw from these influences and try to come up with your own sound. I absolutely refuse to do the dotted 8th note delay thing that is so popular these days. I also try not to play anything note for note in our services. I always try to put my stamp of individuality on it for better or worse. Yes I have had people tell me, "That's not how Lincoln plays it", but honestly I don't care.

I play in a very small church in the country. We bring whatever we need to play the songs. It sounds like many churches are very complicated. Being from a small one, some of these posts seem to describe churches that are concerned with pleasing the congregation (costomers) rather than simple praise. I like living in the country.

Yeah, our church is easily over 1,000 regular attendees. Sometimes size is a hindrance and we need to remember why we are here in the first place.

Concerning Lincoln Brewster's rig being considered ideal: Evidently it works well for him and yes he is a talented player, BUT we are all individuals and we should be trying to develop our individual sound. Nothing distracts me more than somebody trying to duplicate somebody else's tone to the most minute detail. Not trying to single Mr. Brewster out. Same thing goes for the Edge, SRV, EVH etc. etc. etc. Sure we all have our influences and preferences on what we think sounds good, but draw from these influences and try to come up with your own sound. I absolutely refuse to do the dotted 8th note delay thing that is so popular these days. I also try not to play anything note for note in our services. I always try to put my stamp of individuality on it for better or worse. Yes I have had people tell me, "That's not how Lincoln plays it", but honestly I don't care.

You are well on your way to enlightenment as a musician. :mrgreen:

I'm all about the practical side of things myself and don't disagree a bit. OTOH, too often we aren't dealing with practical issues, but rather prejudices and attitudes and expectations. And too often, misperceptions and ignorance. Some folks just don't understand that guitars should be heard. I'm sure you were told you were too loud the moment someone saw that half-stack - lot's of people listen with their eyes. You're lucky when people revise their opinions once they've actually heard the complete band in full song.

Me, I get told the guitar is too loud by someone standing in front of the amp who doesn't realize that the voices and instruments in the PA are spread across the FOH while my guitar amp is a point source and you won't hear a balance until you're out where people are sitting.

Absolutly my friend, excellent point. I am very lucky to be in a church that doesn't mind guitar amps, but I have showed up some places with a small combo and had them complain before the power is on, or other people crank the guitar mic line and say the amp is loud and not the pa channel.... So ya different places are much more challenging. Iv hot glued many a line out of my amps in my day to make a point or 2 (younger years lol)

I have just found that most places where a sound/music team is not willing to grow and learn about the craft is usually a place where I dont want to play anyway. If I want to do my best for God then I hate feeling like I'm comprimising or hating my tone to do so. We all know that when we sound good to our own ears we play better.

Everything is a process. I have advised people before in small churches to use small practice amps just to introduce the concept. generally alot of these issues can be sold by offering some professional train to church volunteers on sound in general. Most people dont understand the difference between a cd player and a guitar amp, but since the volume fader is labeled they are allowed to do sound. Growing as a team in understanding how sound works gets alot done that will even please generational people that complain about the style of music or the color pants you wear;)

But are we expected to respond to the WL (who is a man) with blind obedience? I would think not. A reasonable and honest conversation is not out of the question.

Especially when the only reason to remove an amp from stage is "because I say so". That answer throws truth out the window. If the amp is quieter than the choir, I really do expect a valid reason to remove the amp.

The reasoning of "do what the worship leader says or you are questioning God's will" is overused in my book. If the Worship leader had a valid reason, or an open heart on the subject, than the conversation would be different. Right now it is a control issue. And if he insists on controlling me under the disguise of "doing God's work" than I am out of here. I was asked to play, and I can leave at any time.

I have been nothing but honest and genuine through this whole conversation with him. I have tried his pedals out. I have tried moving the amp. I am still looking for alternatives. But I won't go with a cruddy replacement "just because". Leadership is beholden to God just like the congregation, they are not our overlords.

I simply wish to encourage other guitarsits to stand up for what is right. Now if the pedal/simulator truly works best and meets your satisfaction, than you should use it. But it doesn't work for everyone.

I agree... I think reasonable and honest conversation between you and the WL is an excellent way to handle it. And I never said anything about "questioning God's will"... please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that these types of situations are a test for us... effective ministry requires a servant's heart, and how we respond to authority/others shows our heart. I agree with you, it sounds like your WL is making some bad decisions, and hopefully discussing it with him will eventually resolve things to your satisfaction... but if it doesn't, I don't think that stomping your feet & threatening to take your guitar and go home is the best way to handle it (at least, from a personal growth standpoint). Iron sharpens iron... you can be sharpened through this, and maybe your WL can be, too.

Maybe you could play a week or two with the setup that the WL wants you to use, give him a chance to rethink his position... he might change his mind pretty quickly when he gets feedback from the congregation! If things still don't resolve, maybe you could meet with the WL and your pastor, to discuss the situation. Wise pastors don't always side with the WL... at least, in my experience! :smile:

There are two things going on that are largely unrelated.

1. Some pastors like the clean stage look for various reasons. some just the aesthetics.... A very clean stage, conversely...
some are trying to keep the Satanic rock and roll look out of the church. It is only recently that items such as a Gibson SG or a Marshall amp would even be considered in a church.

2. Sound. I guarantee you most folks are not tone junkies. I guarantee you, you can set a 50 dollar Fender Squire or other cheap amp up, or a $2000.00 boutique amp up, blind test 999 out of 1000 people and other than perceived volume, one will sound as good as the other, and the difference between a properly set up direct in unit and a good amp is very slight, only a few of us will note the difference and that only if the good amp is set up optimally.

As far as overall sound, the single biggest factor is the sound guys ability to control the sound. Many musicians just refuse to turn it down. You have to give the sound guy room to adjust the sound, particularly the volume.

All that said, I am all about on stage amps. Many guitar players (and bassist, and drummers, just need to turn it down.

Concerning Lincoln Brewster's rig being considered ideal: Evidently it works well for him and yes he is a talented player, BUT we are all individuals and we should be trying to develop our individual sound. Nothing distracts me more than somebody trying to duplicate somebody else's tone to the most minute detail. Not trying to single Mr. Brewster out. Same thing goes for the Edge, SRV, EVH etc. etc. etc. Sure we all have our influences and preferences on what we think sounds good, but draw from these influences and try to come up with your own sound. I absolutely refuse to do the dotted 8th note delay thing that is so popular these days. I also try not to play anything note for note in our services. I always try to put my stamp of individuality on it for better or worse. Yes I have had people tell me, "That's not how Lincoln plays it", but honestly I don't care.

If you don't do dotted 8th delay, what is your forum name a reference to? :razz:

But there's the rub... everybody has a different definition of best rig, reasonable volume, and aesthetically pleasing. When you are on a worship team (or in a band), you're working & playing together, trying to produce a cohesive result. Tough to do if everyone is only focused on themselves & their personal preferences.

Despite all of the comments to the contrary in this thread, situations like this do tend to expose heart issues more than gear issues. How we react to authority/leadership in situations like this shows where our heart is in ministry... there's no getting around it. Whether to use an amp or go direct isn't a moral decision, even though for some of us, it sure might feel like one. :wink: It is an opportunity though, to respond appropriately to a leader who irritates the crap out of us... that's the real test.

Oh I totally agree, didn't mean to suggest anything but a team effort. I'm just used to a band setting. It's kind of a democratic thing with us, everyone trying to make sure each element fits within the construct of the song to produce that cohesive result. If we all played with only our tone in mind, it might sound like junk so I'll cede that point.

But if the amp and tone is right in a worship setting, and we are giving our best to God and our congregation, then why sacrifice that to suit one person's unjustifiable aversion to guitar amps (if the volume is lower than the human voice, I would suggest that the amp is objectively not too loud and the reason the WL doesn't like it lies elsewhere). I think that's the point the OP was sharing and one I agree with.

You are correct though, it's an opportunity on both sides of this to come together in grace to come to an agreement.

If you don't do dotted 8th delay, what is your forum name a reference to?

Good one mrSlush50:grin:

Tomlin really is my last name and as far as I am aware I am not related to Chris or Lily :mrgreen:

As you can imagine I have been asked this several times over the years and I find it to be quite funny.

Concerning Lincoln Brewster's rig being considered ideal: Evidently it works well for him and yes he is a talented player, BUT we are all individuals and we should be trying to develop our individual sound. Nothing distracts me more than somebody trying to duplicate somebody else's tone to the most minute detail. Not trying to single Mr. Brewster out. Same thing goes for the Edge, SRV, EVH etc. etc. etc. Sure we all have our influences and preferences on what we think sounds good, but draw from these influences and try to come up with your own sound. I absolutely refuse to do the dotted 8th note delay thing that is so popular these days. I also try not to play anything note for note in our services. I always try to put my stamp of individuality on it for better or worse. Yes I have had people tell me, "That's not how Lincoln plays it", but honestly I don't care.

Too many churches are becoming Cover Companies. . . They wanna pump out what Hillsong sounds like, they wanna look like the newest biggest TV church etc.... Makes me SICK! We are NOT cookie cutters!

When I read your post I thought... Is this guy me? If we were allowed to talk about what The Bible says in here, I'd say that the Bible says to Sing a new song for the Lord, but since we can't I won't. . . My point being we all communicate our Worship through our Filters "Our Past, Our Experiences, Our Tastes" and we all may be similar we are all different. . . So WHY try to sound just like ________?

Wanna play better? Pray better. . . . play when you pray and see what new licks you'll come up with! I love to play and pray alone. . . Try it.

I'd tell him that if he wants Lincoln Brewster he should go and ask him to join the group instead of you.

Stand your ground. If playing music stops being enjoyable it's no longer playing....it's become work. That's no good for anyone.

vaughn4380 - brother I feel you! and I would say stand your ground. Your amp and setup is part of what you do and what you have to offer. If it is not appreciated at your church, then maybe it isnt the church for you. I hate fighting with worship leaders and sound guys, thankfully I have church where we can for the most part do what we want as far as songs, gear, volume etc. But - the fact that your WORSHIP LEADER is the one that says get rid of your amp, that scares me! and tells me he knows NOTHING about music, or especially tone. And Im sorry, but this is the reason many praise and worship bands... well... suck.

I can feel frustration - and I think you are being very respectful and having a good attitude about it all. But my advice would be stand your ground, and if you are not happy and confident in what is being done there - seek out a place where your services would be appreciated.

Good luck!

ps - can't stand when Lincoln Brewster solos - he ruins what is usally a fantastic song up to that point :)

Quick question, does anyone know if these Tech 21 liverpool pedals need to go into a direct box, or just straight to the board?

I feel your pain man.
The keyboardist at my church is the leader of our musicians. If my sound is different than his (and it always will be because I play a guitar) there is a problem. He makes suggestions that work for a piano or keyboard but cannot be emulated on the guitar. The only recourse has been to use the "Smile and wave" method.

And why does everyone ask if my heart is in the right place just because I disagree with the WL? I have been asked this numerous times by others at church. Just because I am honest about gear means my heart is wrong? I really did give these pedals an honest try.

We are not to follow ANY man blindly, especially when we think their motives are less than pure.

I get the same flak at my church.
I basically tell everyone that has a problem that, if they can show me on paper where what they are saying is true and/or works, then I will do it no questions asked. If they can't then they can go kick rocks.

Until the Pastor says something has to change...there really isn't a problem, just people's attitudes.

Quick question, does anyone know if these Tech 21 liverpool pedals need to go into a direct box, or just straight to the board?

I just checked their website. And it is the DI. It can even go directly into a laptop using a conversion adaptor for 1/4 to 1/8th.

I just checked their website. And it is the DI. It can even go directly into a laptop using a conversion adaptor for 1/4 to 1/8th.

Where did you see that on the page, I was looking and couldn't find anything. Being a 1/4 inch jack, I'd kinda doubt it is a balanced line, unless they have a stereo jack on the out. My guess is you'd still want to use a DI. Have your church look into the Radial DI's they sound great, much better than the cheaper alternatives.

Where did you see that on the page, I was looking and couldn't find anything. Being a 1/4 inch jack, I'd kinda doubt it is a balanced line, unless they have a stereo jack on the out. My guess is you'd still want to use a DI. Have your church look into the Radial DI's they sound great, much better than the cheaper alternatives.

If you open the review by Guitar Player you'll read it there. The link is on the product page.

http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansamp/characterseries.html

I didn't read it as being a DI per se. It says you can go directly to a mixer where its listing how you can put it in a signal chain, which you could do by going into a line input, but I don't think it gives a balanced lo-z output like a DI would.

As far as no amps on stage, we've used line6 at church for probably 3 or 4 years now. Both electrics are going into the POD XT Live. I use IEM's fed from an Aviom, the other guitar player just listen to the WL's monitor or the house mix. Personally, I really don't see the point if you are going to replace an amp with a big wedge, other than the fact that you get a whole bunch of different sounds from a line6 than 1 amp. But I also will add that if you use a computer to setup the line6 patches, it is a whole lot easier than doing it on the unit. I get that you don't want to change, you like your setup and don't see the point. Are you expected to buy the gear out of pocket or is the church picking up the tab? If they are paying, then why not go at it with an open mind and give it a chance to work. Granted a lot can be lost in translation over the internet, so there is a significant chance that I am mis-reading you, but it seems that your coming at it from a "I don't like it and I don't wanna do it" Sure, nothing is a tube amp but a tube amp, but is having to play something else worth raising a huge stink. I mean, its not really supposed to be about "me" anyway, right?

Well..completely different deal here..

Led worship this past Sunday. Playing a '72 Deluxe re-issue through an Egnater Rebel 20 and a Marshall 2x12 with a Weber Blue and Silver.

We use avioms and I made a decision that I just couldn't interact with the amp and my effects and my guitars volume knob like I wanted to so I've been just dealing with the house mix for the last 3 or 4 times I've played. It works for me...

Well, this Sunday we are doing sound check and the sound guy asks me, :is that all you got?" Me thinking he means sound wise, I kick in my boost and give him that. "He responds, no, not a different sound, but I need more." I said, surprisingly, "you mean you want it louder?" He says, "yea, that is what I mean." I cranked it up!! I was very pleased with the sound and many congregants commented on how good my sound was this week. First time I have EVER had a soundman ask me to actually turn up and I've been giging and leading worship, in and out of church, for 30 years...

I am blessed...

I didn't read it as being a DI per se. It says you can go directly to a mixer where its listing how you can put it in a signal chain, which you could do by going into a line input, but I don't think it gives a balanced lo-z output like a DI would.


Actually, upon further research, it does appear that it has a "universal" out which does give you a Hi Z or Lo Z output, but I haven't turned up anything about being a balanced out, although it does appear that someone, as of March of 2010 was installing a transformer and an XLR jack as an aftermarket mod, which leads me to believe that it isn't balanced and will need a DI to run much over 30 feet or so.

snip...

but it seems that your coming at it from a "I don't like it and I don't wanna do it" Sure, nothing is a tube amp but a tube amp, but is having to play something else worth raising a huge stink. I mean, its not really supposed to be about "me" anyway, right?

Did you even read the thread? I gave these pedal an honest try, they suck.

I have heard similar arguments for the past few days. I guess I never realized that nobody cares what the guitar sounds like, just as long as there is no amp on stage, that's all that matters. So I just need to shut up and use whatever pedal the WL decides is the best. He doesn't play guitar, but clearly he knows what is best.

God will be happy with whatever I play, no matter how bad it sounds, right?

We are expected to pay for our own gear, and the $1200 amp and $1000 pedal board I have used with other professional (i.e. paid) gigs is clearly not appropriate for the church. Instead I should be happy to use the $100 pedal that sounds bad through the PA. I am tired of arguing this. I have been told I will be using the Liverpool pedal no matter what I say. I have turned in my resignation pending the church finding a replacement for me.

I find it odd that the guitarists are expected to use cheap amp substitutes, but the keyboards are top of the line, and the drummer is still allowed to use quality acoustic drums, and the horns are not expected to use student level instruments.

When I was asked to play (and I was recruited) I was told my opinion would matter and the WL wanted my input as a semi-pro musician. He didn't want a high turnover in the band like other churches in our area, and he wanted the best that could be put before God. I come with 20 years of experience in theater and local bands. At no time has my volume been an issue.

Well the truth is, he just wanted to use my name to promote the band. Add to that his control issues and complete ignorance on how pro musicians work and you get a recipe for disaster. With few exceptions, pros don't use Line 6 and Tech 21 as their sole source of amplification. Occasional effects, yes, but not sole amplification.

So now I need to figure out how to use this Liverpool pedal for the next few weeks until my replacement is up to speed.

Ironic, a buddy of mine has toured with major acts for over 30 years. He is always asked to play at his church and he always says no. He claims churches are the worst gig in the world as the WL always thinks he knows more than a 30 year vet. He said I wouldn't last six months and he is turning out to be right. :roll:

This is why good players don't play at church.

...
We are expected to pay for our own gear, and the $1200 amp and $1000 pedal board I have used with other professional (i.e. paid) gigs is clearly not appropriate for the church. Instead I should be happy to use the $100 pedal that sounds bad through the PA. I am tired of arguing this. I have been told I will be using the Liverpool pedal no matter what I say. I have turned in my resignation pending the church finding a replacement for me.

So now I need to figure out how to use this Liverpool pedal for the next few weeks until my replacement is up to speed.

Why not just make it an immediate resignation? You're being forced to use gear you don't want to; why bother?

Your contribution to the services is not wanted as is...so walk.

I didn't read it as being a DI per se. It says you can go directly to a mixer where its listing how you can put it in a signal chain, which you could do by going into a line input, but I don't think it gives a balanced lo-z output like a DI would.

As far as no amps on stage, we've used line6 at church for probably 3 or 4 years now. Both electrics are going into the POD XT Live. I use IEM's fed from an Aviom, the other guitar player just listen to the WL's monitor or the house mix. Personally, I really don't see the point if you are going to replace an amp with a wedge, other than the fact that you get a whole bunch of different sounds from a line6 than 1 amp. But I also will add that if you use a computer to setup the line6 patches, it is a whole lot easier than doing it on the unit. I get that you don't want to change, you like your setup and don't see the point. Are you expected to buy the gear out of pocket or is the church picking up the tab? If they are paying, then why not go at it with an open mind and give it a chance to work. Granted a lot can be lost in translation over the internet, so there is a significant chance that I am mis-reading you, but it seems that your coming at it from a "I don't like it and I don't wanna do it" Sure, nothing is a tube amp but a tube amp, but is having to play something else worth raising a huge stink. I mean, its not really supposed to be about "me" anyway, right?

Did you even read the thread? I gave these pedal an honest try, they suck.

I have heard similar arguments for the past few days. I guess I never realized that nobody cares what the guitar sounds like, just as long as there is no amp on stage, that's all that matters. So I just need to shut up and use whatever pedal the WL decides is the best. He doesn't play guitar, but clearly he knows what is best.
Yeah, I did read the thread, did you read my post? I get it. I guess we are just coming from a more different place than I realized. I own a tube amp, I love the way it sounds, but, in our room, it doesn't work to have an amp on stage, the wedges for vocals are bad enough, so amp-free has to be a reality for us. I never even disagreed with your point that your Worship Leader doesn't know/understand the things in play with a guitar rig, or audio in general or that he is apparently a megalomaniac. The thrust of my post was that form me, my worship comes before my tone, if I can't do it the way I want, oh well, I'll keep doing it the way I have to. You have a different view AND THAT IS COOL, its your perogative. Personally, I feel that probably at least 80% of people in the congregation would never notice the difference between a modeler and the real thing and of the remaining 20 percent, 19.5% couldn't tell you what was different other than it sounds "different". But that's just my opinion.

Quick question, does anyone know if these Tech 21 liverpool pedals need to go into a direct box, or just straight to the board?

It needs a direct box. I sent my Blonde to Mike Putnam for his balanced XLR mod so I could save some space, but a direct box will work fine (that's how we run the VT Bass pedal).

Btw, Vaughn, I'm really sorry that you and the WL couldn't work it out, especially since it's in a church setting. I hope things work out for you, and I pray that you can get through the next few weeks without beating the WL to death with the Liverpool pedal. :wink:

Yeah, I am also sorry that it didn't work out. It's sad how a good situation can take a turn for the worst so quickly. Jesus experienced that firsthand.

Yeah, I did read the thread,

Sorry man, there is a lot coming out in my posts that reflect upon the actions of others who are NOT on this TDPRI board. I should have toned it down.

I feel like I am getting beat over the head with friends questioning my commitment to the church just because I have an opinion of these pedals. I feel we are supposed to bring the best we have for the situation, the guys that volunteer to mow the church grounds don't use their push-mowers just because they are quieter. The best tool I have is for this situation is being replaced with a $100 pedal that I am expected to buy. It's frustrating.

It needs a direct box. I sent my Blonde to Mike Putnam for his balanced XLR mod so I could save some space, but a direct box will work fine (that's how we run the VT Bass pedal).

Btw, Vaughn, I'm really sorry that you and the WL couldn't work it out, especially since it's in a church setting. I hope things work out for you, and I pray that you can get through the next few weeks without beating the WL to death with the Liverpool pedal. :wink:

Thanks, I am done discussing things with him. Probably won't even talk to him.

Why not just make it an immediate resignation? You're being forced to use gear you don't want to; why bother?

Your contribution to the services is not wanted as is...so walk.

An immediate resignation screws the entire band, and possibly the entire church. The appropriate thing is to allow a replacement time to get things figured out. The other player in the group emailed me that he just gave a two week notice, so now the church is in a predicament of finding two guitarists that don't mind volunteering up to 20 hours per week along with additional practicing at home.

This whole situation probably has nothing to do with any of the pedals, or amps. This is an argument about control. The WL wants to exert control over his volunteers. I have a feeling whoever he gets to replace us won't be around for long.

Did you even read the thread? I gave these pedal an honest try, they suck.

...

This is why good players don't play at church.A couple of comments - the equipment doesn't suck. A lot of people find it works just fine. Maybe you don't, but that doesn't make it an equipment problem. And, a parting slam on everyone [else] who seems to find a way to make it work in a church setting tells me that there was little hope for reconciliation from the beginning.

Putting it back into the context of this sub-forum, from what I've seen, playing in a church almost always requires equipment adjustment. (The only person in our group playing what he came with, unaltered, is a guy using his 20 year old Ovation 12-string that already had a pickup and endpin jack.)

I was frustrated (and *still* have my days) with the switch from an amp and pedal board that worked just fine in the previous church, but it was in the best interest of everyone that I move to where they were, rather than suggest a new norm to accommodate my preferences. Playing in a church group requires some humility, because the overall sound is much more important in that environment, and it's rare when the WL/pastor/congregation will feel that the guitar is a key part. If you are better than everyone else, you need to do a humility check before signing up to play in church, because, as Rick Warren said, "It's not about you."

An immediate resignation screws the entire band, and possibly the entire church. The appropriate thing is to allow a replacement time to get things figured out. The other player in the group emailed me that he just gave a two week notice, so now the church is in a predicament of finding two guitarists that don't mind volunteering up to 20 hours per week along with additional practicing at home.

It may inconvenience the band; it certainly won't screw the entire church.

Wherever two or more are gathered in His name, right? Lack of you or any other guitarist doesn't mean there can't be a good worship service.

It might be good to have a service without a band. Good music is desirable, but not an absolute essential. Certainly if you're having music, it should be good...but nothing wrong with going without.

A couple of comments - the equipment doesn't suck. A lot of people find it works just fine. Maybe you don't, but that doesn't make it an equipment problem. And, a parting slam on everyone [else] who seems to find a way to make it work in a church setting tells me that there was little hope for reconciliation from the beginning.



Yep, you are right, I have heard this a lot lately from those who are close to me. I ask them if "making it work" is what God wants and they refuse to answer my question. Again, I have a low powered amp that sounds better and is overpowered by the choir. I have tried to talk to the WL about this to no avail. All in the band think the pedal sounds worse than my amp. But hey, let's blame the guitarist for not following God's will and questioning the WL.

I also know several musicians that refuse to play in churches because of similar experiences. Guys who have toured with somewhat big names and pay their rent by playing five nights a week. To tell them "how it's going to be" is wrong of the church and belittling their experience. Almost like the church is better than the pros who play for a living. I am now on the same list as them.

Yep, you are right, I have heard this a lot lately from those who are close to me. I ask them if "making it work" is what God wants and they refuse to answer my question. Again, I have a low powered amp that sounds better and is overpowered by the choir. I have tried to talk to the WL about this to no avail. All in the band think the pedal sounds worse than my amp. But hey, let's blame the guitarist for not following God's will and questioning the WL.

I also know several musicians that refuse to play in churches because of similar experiences. Guys who have toured with somewhat big names and pay their rent by playing five nights a week. To tell them "how it's going to be" is wrong of the church and belittling their experience. Almost like the church is better than the pros who play for a living. I am now on the same list as them.

Ah dude.. I have seen so many good musicians go through this. Its really a shame because these days time is important to a person, and if you volunteer your time and don't enjoy doing it, it can lead to so many different feelings of being wronged our just a little confused about how to use these giftings in a proper mannor. I have been told to my face that the power of the amp is replacing the power of God on a week I didn't even use an amp lol.. Its a constant struggle to do our best with the giftings given to us, but 9 times out of 10 if you play at a bar saturday night they appreciate you more than most a church will sunday morning.. This is not all cases and I am lucky to be in a place where this is the opposite. All of these choices are up to you so I wont even give an opinion, just wanna say that I have been there!

With few exceptions, pros don't use Line 6 and Tech 21 as their sole source of amplification.

IME, only the ones with a deal.

So now I need to figure out how to use this Liverpool pedal for the next few weeks until my replacement is up to speed.

You're a good man to stick around. Might not be a bad thing to force the WL to "talk you into sticking around" for those few weeks - even if you already have decided to do so. It will be an opportunity to tell him what you think and explain his problem in whatever detail you feel the need. But then again, I'm not always that nice a guy.

As for the technical side of this, I simply cannot get emulators, simulators or modelers to work the way an amp does. I maybe could get it to work well enough, but why.

There's a Mesa Boogie V-Twin pedal on ebay right now. Here's the link
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mesa-Boogie-V-Twin-Tube-Pre-Amp-Distortion-Pedal-w-plug-/110643639353?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item19c2dff439

$400 obo.

The reasoning of "do what the worship leader says or you are questioning God's will" is overused in my book.


Amen! :!:

ps - can't stand when Lincoln Brewster solos - he ruins what is usally a fantastic song up to that point :)

+1

But hey, let's blame the guitarist for not following God's will and questioning the WL.


I don't think anybody in this thread has said that, except you. I do know, though, that having a servant's heart is about putting others first, not ourselves... It's not about getting our way, it's about how we respond when we don't get our way. Does God's will for you hinge on whether you use your amp or a modeling pedal, or does it hinge on whether you respond with a servant's heart even when (especially when!) those you're dealing with are being total butt-heads? At the end of my life, I would hate to think I'm going to be judged on whether I used a Tech 21 pedal or not... :mrgreen:



I also know several musicians that refuse to play in churches because of similar experiences. Guys who have toured with somewhat big names and pay their rent by playing five nights a week. To tell them "how it's going to be" is wrong of the church and belittling their experience. Almost like the church is better than the pros who play for a living. I am now on the same list as them.

I know some of those guys, too... Heck, one of my best friends is one of 'em. He's been "wronged" in every church he's played in, and now he's bitter & super-critical. He's missing out on some real blessings by not using his gifts to serve others. :wink:

I know some of those guys, too... Heck, one of my best friends is one of 'em. He's been "wronged" in every church he's played in, and now he's bitter & super-critical. He's missing out on some real blessings by not using his gifts to serve others. :wink:

I've been burned enough times serving in churches that I'm selective about what I will and won't do on a volunteer basis.

I'm a tentmaker now.

Yep, you are right, I have heard this a lot lately from those who are close to me. I ask them if "making it work" is what God wants and they refuse to answer my question. Again, I have a low powered amp that sounds better and is overpowered by the choir. I have tried to talk to the WL about this to no avail. All in the band think the pedal sounds worse than my amp. But hey, let's blame the guitarist for not following God's will and questioning the WL.

I also know several musicians that refuse to play in churches because of similar experiences. Guys who have toured with somewhat big names and pay their rent by playing five nights a week. To tell them "how it's going to be" is wrong of the church and belittling their experience. Almost like the church is better than the pros who play for a living. I am now on the same list as them.
I'll answer that. In my view, yes. If you want to know why I think that, PM me and I'll share, my answer may run a little close to forum rules to post here.

I don't think anybody in this thread has said that, except you. I do know, though, that having a servant's heart is about putting others first, not ourselves... It's not about getting our way, it's about how we respond when we don't get our way. Does God's will for you hinge on whether you use your amp or a modeling pedal, or does it hinge on whether you respond with a servant's heart even when (especially when!) those you're dealing with are being total butt-heads? At the end of my life, I would hate to think I'm going to be judged on whether I used a Tech 21 pedal or not... :mrgreen:

^ This too.

I don't think anybody in this thread has said that, except you. I do know, though, that having a servant's heart is about putting others first, not ourselves... :

It has been inferred by some in this thread. It has also been flat out told to me by others in the church.

And if serving God is about others, how come the guitar players are always the one being told to give up the amp? Shouldn't the WL put others first?

At the end of my life, I would hate to think I'm going to be judged on whether I used a Tech 21 pedal or not... :mrgreen:


You won't, you will be asked if you were honest and stood up for what is right. In your case, you don't mind going ampless so you will have no problem.

However, if I lie and say the Tech 21 sounds "awesome", "better than my old amp", or that I am even happy with it, I would be a liar as none of these statements are true. I don't even think the pedal is a reasonable substitute.

All of these things have been said by the WL in the face of the rest of the band telling him he is wrong. So he is a liar. A liar that won't even discuss the issue as he doesn't care, he just wants my amp gone. The congregation doesn't care what the guitar sounds like, and nobody cares what I think. Not exactly a situation I wish to continue playing in.

In essence, the issue is bigger than the pedal, like I said in another post, this is now a control issue.

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole band just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, he listed the specific model and all others are not allowed. In-ears are also banned as they don't "have the frequency range we need". :shock:

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE. :roll:

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, I know some members don't have that sitting around and probably will have to put these things on a credit card (if they are willing to buy at all).

I wonder how weird we are going to look wearing these stupid headphones while playing? We are not allowed to sit on stage as the WL feels it detracts from the "spirit" of the service, so we will be standing with studio headphones on and tethered to something with the chord. And what will the choir listen to?

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.

Our worship team went to the in-ear monitors. I couldn't stand the ear buds and bought myself some headphones. I got some small silver Koss ones that actually worked great. They had good bass response which is missing in the ear buds and they had a good high end sizzle too. They are small enough and don't look outlandish.

While I prefer to use amps and monitors we are spread far apart and it was a practical solution in that case. I would have prefered to have us all packed in a corner like a real band but it's really not about the band so we pretty much just go along with whatever.

I play in bands outside of church so it's just service to me.

I also picked up a Digitech RP50 for $50 and run it straight into the board. The provided patches are total garbage but I found with a little work I could get some really nice sounds out of it.

It's also nice in that because it's only a $50 investment I have no problem just leaving it there. Not that I would expect it to get stolen but if it was more valuable or it was my amp I would have to deal with lugging it around. It's much nicer to just plug in and go.

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole bad just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, he listed the specific model and all others are not allowed. In-ears are also banned as they don't "have the frequency range we need". :shock:

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE. :roll:

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, I know some members don't have that sitting around and probably will have to put these things on a credit card (if they are willing to buy at all).

I wonder how weird we are going to look wearing these stupid headphones while playing? We are not allowed to sit on stage as the WL feels it detracts from the "spirit" of the service, so we will be standing with studio headphones on and tethered to something with the chord. And what will the choir listen to?

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.

Wow, this WL sounds like he doesn't care about anyone's needs aside from his own. $500 is a large chunk of change to many people. I would just make the resignment immediate.

I will gladly dedicate time and resources to my church but it is a mistake to ask people to buy $500 headphones. It would even be a mistake if the church paid for them as it would be a terrible waste of church resources.

This WL sounds like he was born and raised in a completely isolated mountain top monastery where people have no concept of money.

The in ear monitors are practical and sound ok but they are not exactly high fidelity so what would be the point of using high end headphones?

Who knows where this comes from?

At one point last year we all went to in-ear monitors, too, by decree. I had to buy a pair out-of-pocket. I got a pair from Sony for about $120. That lasted about six weeks. We don't use that system anymore. Now we're back to stage monitors and amps. We also found a quieter drummer.

But $500 is too much, IMHO.

Power tripping "worship leaders" do so much more harm than good.

Tim

Vaughn4380...the situation sounds very toxic regardless of who's right or who's wrong (and it's not my place to make a judgment so please don't think that I am) I think it is safe to say from reading through all of this that there is little chance for you to focus on the worship part of worship service playing with circumstances and emotions running the way that they are in that church. Maybe it really is that you are not meant to play there.

I don't know if this is the only church experience you've had, but I wanted to say that there are a lot of us who are very fortunate to play in places where there is a tremendous level of love, respect, and open communication between musicians, leaders, and pastors. If you have any desire whatsoever to serve with your musical gift, I hope this hasn't completely poisoned you from service in another place.

The whole quite stage thing is such a good topic, though, because so many churches are struggling with if/how to do it...and it seems to be a contentious subject for any place that attempts it, not just your current church.

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole bad just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, ...

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE. :roll:

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, ...

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.


It's admirable that you're staying on for a few weeks, really, in the face of all that has transpired with your team. To me, it sounds like this is about way more than choice of gear. It sounds like there are major boundary issues between the WL and the rest of the team. In a church or anywhere else, one person making a decision like that without the rest of the band is not cool.

From what I'm reading in your posts,it seems there is no possiblility of reasoning or negotiating with the WL, so it's probably best that you distance yourself from this person. I'm very sorry for you and your team that this isn't working out, especially in the setting of a church.

I don't think there's anything for you to do except move on, and to be sure and tell the pastor exactly why you're moving on.

Telling you that only one specific$120 pedal/amp emulator you have to play through is bad enough, and making you purchase one specific $500 headset is just absurd.

I had to leave a church worship team due to ridiculous actions of the leaders, and I was very specific to the pastor as to why. It didn't change their mind in the short term, but it did provide food for thought (and change) in the long term.

Sometimes, situations become unworkable, mostly due to inflexibility on the part of one or both parties.

It appears some of the band members are meeting with the head pastor Friday. I have been invited and will probably go. I guess this is a bigger problem than I realized, and my "run in" with the WL is just the last straw for a few members. Others have been having trouble with odd demands and unreasonable requests. Whenever questions have come up the old "don't you trust...." line is used. I wasn't aware of the others' problems since no one wanted to "gossip" with other members.

Sorry to vent so much on the forum, when I started the thread I figured it would be more of a "stand your ground" thread about using amps in a live setting.

And for the record, had I been approached about eliminating monitors, I would have tried a little harder to eliminate the amp. At the time it made no sense when we were just going to pump more of me through the monitors.

Thanks to all for your input. It has been helpful.

Dude something like this happened to me. The youth pastor and worship pastor both wanted to control the youth band. Well lets just say that after my parents went to the meeting, left and they still ended up bad mouthing me and all this other crap. The point is, is that ALOT of of leaders in the church are power hungry people. They will stop at nothing to get complete control. Moral of the story is that you sound like your right in your thoughts and the WL is a complete power hungry mogrel.:mrgreen:

p.s. Its been over two years and they are still badmouthing me :roll:

And if serving God is about others, how come the guitar players are always the one being told to give up the amp? Shouldn't the WL put others first?
In a perfect world, yes, however, if the WL doesn't it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to continue to put others first.
Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole band just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, he listed the specific model and all others are not allowed. In-ears are also banned as they don't "have the frequency range we need". :shock:

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE. :roll:

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, I know some members don't have that sitting around and probably will have to put these things on a credit card (if they are willing to buy at all).

I wonder how weird we are going to look wearing these stupid headphones while playing? We are not allowed to sit on stage as the WL feels it detracts from the "spirit" of the service, so we will be standing with studio headphones on and tethered to something with the chord. And what will the choir listen to?

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.
You are right, this does bring the whole situation into perspective. It would appear that your WL is an incompetent communicator or has some serious other issues. $500 for a set of HP's is crazy. Where are your audio guys in all this? Seriously, especially now since you are going to meet with your head pastor, I'd recommend the church get in contact with a good audio consultant and have them go over things with the church. It sounds like the WL is looking at catalogs and just buying stuff based on hype and not much thought.

BTW, I somehow forgot in all of this that you were required to use a liverpool, that is just crazy too, I understand the principle behind going to a quiet stage, but you should at least let your guitar players pick what they are going to use to replace an amp,

And if serving God is about others, how come the guitar players are always the one being told to give up the amp?

Maybe because guitar players have a history of being the biggest culprits in the volume wars, along with drummers? Even now, when we have a volume issue on stage, 9 times out of 10 it's either my guitar or the drummer hitting too hard... or both. It really sucks when I have to reprimand myself! :mrgreen:

Shouldn't the WL put others first?

No doubt, he should... it sounds like he has some real problems, and shouldn't be in leadership (I played with a WL like that for 2 years, and it was a frustrating experience that I didn't always handle well). But I've learned that someone else's lack of character is never a justification for us to respond poorly... that's part of the test! Also, as a leader, "putting others first" doesn't mean that you let the folks on your team always have their way, but it does mean that you strive to always handle things with grace... even when you have to put your foot down. For me, easy to say, but tough to do! :wink:

Edited to add: While I was typing the above, you posted that some of the team members are meeting with the pastor... very good move. Hopefully, he'll work quickly to resolve the situation.

You are right, this does bring the whole situation into perspective. It would appear that your WL is an incompetent communicator or has some serious other issues. $500 for a set of HP's is crazy. Where are your audio guys in all this? Seriously, especially now since you are going to meet with your head pastor, I'd recommend the church get in contact with a good audio consultant and have them go over things with the church. It sounds like the WL is looking at catalogs and just buying stuff based on hype and not much thought. He most likely is, or even buying what other churches in the area have. I haven't talked to the sound guys in a while, I know they have always hated the amps but they would still work with me to mic them up. They are volunteers (like the band), it might be beneficial to talk to them pending the outcome of Friday's meeting.

BTW, I somehow forgot in all of this that you were required to use a liverpool, that is just crazy too, I understand the principle behind going to a quiet stage, but you should at least let your guitar players pick what they are going to use to replace an amp, Partly my fault, when the Line 6 stuff was a bust I mentioned that I would prefer a simple emulator that resembled some type of Vox amp. A buddy of his had this Liverpool pedal that we tried out and now the WL is set on it. In hind site the line 6 may have been better. Again, had the WL been willing to talk, I know there are other options we could have tried, like the Palmer speaker emulator that you run your own amp into, or the Mesa Boogie preamp mentioned above.

My comments in red. The palmer looks interesting, you get your own amp sound without a speaker, and run the signal to the board. For a "silent stage" it may be the best of both worlds.

Edited to add: While I was typing the above, you posted that some of the team members are meeting with the pastor... very good move. Hopefully, he'll work quickly to resolve the situation.

Until today, I thought I was the only one having trouble "communicating" with the WL. I was dead wrong. The rest of the band members didn't want to gossip so they held their tongues about their own issues. But the sum of everything has added up to a serious problem.

I won't post to many details, but for example, the drummer has been requested to buy an electronic drum set some time ago. None of us knew about the request as he didn't want to contribute to bad feelings within the group. He doesn't have the money (in addition to the $500 headphones) but comments have been made about his commitment to the program. He has over 35 years of experience, and one heck of an acoustic set that he has used for most of it. We are talking pro level touring set that Neal Pert would probably enjoy. Why question his commitment?

I am surprised he hasn't quit, have you priced an electronic set recently? It would be cheaper to buy a plastic cage for him and allow him to use his own set. But that is not what the WL wants.

Vaughn I feel for ya dude. Like I said earlier, I think so many churches are chasing after the latest 'thing' they see another church doing. There are so many WL that have NO concept of tone, equipment etc.... and they all wanna be straight up cover artists NO "adding to allowed" . . .

I am with ya bro! I am ALL for having an amp with a Mic hanging or propped up in front of it on stage. . . But this "pretty boy" religion that is taking over in our churches goes more for what it "looks like" other than what it sounds like . . makes me wanna puke.

I was at a BIG church "Nationally known" a few months ago. One guitar player had a hot Gretsch, the other had a Nashville Pickup style Tele, and the acoustic player was using a Taylor. . . All I could hear were the Voices, Drums, and Keys. ONCE in a while at the beginning of a "guitar driven" song I would hear A guitar kick it off. . . but other than that Seriously NOTHING from the guitars.

As I was sitting there by my WL, I told her. . . If they had my guitar turned down that low, I would NOT play. . . Thank God SHE AGREED with me!

Good luck Bro! I understand you just want to sound your best for Worship.

If things work out where you decide to stick it out and you do go to a in-ear/headphone monitoring solution, I'd try that amp miced in a separate room idea out again. Yeah, the Palmer looks interesting, but it's not cheap either and if you have a room available where you can mic up your amp and be done with it...well, I'd lobby pretty hard for that option. Seems like a win-win and people can be trained to stay out of the amp room!

BTW...For in-ears, I use a pair of old Sure E2s that were around $100 new. They are adequate. I'd like a pair that picked up a little more of the bass and kick, but they are paid for, and overall, they are ok for a good balanced mix. We have a couple of people that, while admittedly look pretty goofy, really like the sound of those big over the ear "cans". $500 is asking a lot, though. Hey, some people get pretty good results from relatively inexpensive consumer ear buds. I personally find that they don't work well with our system. It requires something with a much flatter response. If you have a pair laying around, though, doesn't hurt to try them out.

It could be worse, he could be insisting that you buy these:
http://ultimateears.com/en-us/products/18-pro
:D

Me, I use $10 memorex buds, they aren't the greatest, but I can hear what I need.

Regarding any life situation really, but specifically the Worship Leader.
I am all about getting the best sound, and hate modeling pedals, but...

If he is the 'WORSHIP LEADER", he is basically the boss and everyone should be working with him. If you don't enjoy this, or are not at least happy to get paid for what you are doing, or do not feel a strong call of God in this...quit and do something else. Life is too short. It is sort of like a job, you do what the boss ask, or quit. The boss may be stupid not to follow your suggestions, but he is the boss. As a bassist, I have spent years "feeding" who ever was fronting the band, that is usually the bands job. Making the star look good. He is the worship leader.

That said, there are plenty of bands and jobs over the years I have left for any number of reasons. Nothing wrong with that, the next gig maybe the best one yet. If you can't work with the guy, for whatever reason, you have to get happy or leave. Can't drive worship if you hate the guy.

$500 headphones suggests to me that the WL is failing in his job, realizes it, and is trying to find a "hardware" fix for the problem, or use the lack of it as an excuse. The band needs to go to the pastor, as a group, about these requirements to buy expensive equipment. Something is seriously out of whack.

And for the record, had I been approached about eliminating monitors, I would have tried a little harder to eliminate the amp. At the time it made no sense when we were just going to pump more of me through the monitors.


Dig it. That makes sense. I'd be willing to experiment with that, myself. As much as I dislike the modelers and their gain structure, I'd take it as an opportunity to design and build something to order that would do the job.

My first two thoughts in order about the new headphone rule were 1- this guy is clueless and believes everything that the salesman at GC tells him and 2- is he getting a kickback.

We'll leave out the latter. This first thing is far more likely. I've recently been getting introduced to the world of church sound and there's just a tremendous amount of sales pressure out there on people who really don't know the technology and are somewhat insecure about that. The unwritten deal the salesman makes is "I'll tell you three things that you can remember that will make you feel wise, instead of telling you the truth and letting you continue to feel confused and overwhelmed."

A not technically knowledgeable guy walks into a music store and says he's trying to get a great sound out of the worship band.... "A silent stage is the only way to get a great, record production quality sound. You'll need an electronic drum kit and your guitarist has to use this amp sim we sell. These are the only headphones that are good enough." The scenario writes itself.

The headphone thing is pure incompetence. There are amazing cans out there for $60.

Figured I would keep this thread updated. Last night was the first complete practice with the Liverpool. I had ordered one on Monday and it came in yesterday so both of us guitarists were using a Tech 21 pedal.

First problem we experienced, the "clean" setting didn't send enough signal to the direct box. With the gain maxed out on the sound board, we still had to turn the level on the pedals up to the max setting, which caused the signal to overdrive and not in a pleasant way. So the WL had the sound guy back the gain down and the end result was we could barley be heard in the FOH and the monitor board couldn't even pick us up so our headphones had none of us in them. So we played the whole night without hearing ourselves with the rest of the band.

The next problem was, when the band wasn't playing and we tried to get a good clean sound, these pedals sucked the mid range right out, lots of highs, tons of bass, no mids no matter how high we turned up the "mid" knob on the pedal. Almost resembled an acoustic simulator. Now I have heard a lot of demos and this has not been a problem in the Tech 21 stuff. So I wonder if our sound guys were doing something or the EQ at the board wasn't right. I did try to talk to the sound guys, but they were irritated the whole night over something else and were not willing to work with me. They did reiterate that the congregation most likely won't care weather they hear the guitars or not, they won't care what they sound like (good or bad), and it was just "awesome" to not have amplifiers on stage.

The drummer showed up with the "required" headphones and was pleased to announce guitar center took off 10% for a grand total of $450. Both keyboardists, rythm guitarist, and myself showed up with other brands of headphones. The bass player showed up with no headphones with the first words out of his mouth being "No way am I spending $500 bucks on headphones". He and the WL had a heated conversation, although the volume was so low that I didn't hear what either said.

There were no monitors on stage so all that could be heard on stage was the choir, the regular piano and the drumset. The choir was a bit off over this, probably because the piano was drown out by their own voices (80+ members) and at the end of the night I could tell they were rattled and irritated.

The in-ear setup kind of worked, if you wanted to hear the electric keyboard, lead vocalists and drums. Any other instrument was absent in the mix even with their respective “fader” turned up all the way on the individual monitor stations. Probably a problem with the monitor board, but again, the sound guys were not talking last night.

Half way through the practice, the bass player was told he was off by the WL (while he was standing in the sanctuary and could hear the FOH mix). The bass player responded with a big “well DUH”. He couldn't hear himself at all. More words were exchanged, the $500 headphones were brought up again, faith was questioned by both sides, commitment to the mission was questioned by the WL, and finally the bass player just said “forget it, I am out”. Packed up and left. The rhythm guitarist looked over at me and asked if we should follow. I decided that was not in the church’s best interest.

The rest of practice was uneventful.

So anyone have experience with the Tech 21 pedals? Am I right to assume they have a good signal strength and the problem is with our board? Or do they need a preamp to boost the clean signal?

We were running a 10 foot guitar cable out of the “output” on the pedal, to a direct box, then a twenty foot mic cable to the master snake input in the stage. The other end of the snake goes into the FOH board.

Wow, sounds, um, uh, interesting, yeah, we'll go with that :) Is there a pad button on your DI? Also, what kind of DI's are you using? What kind of In ear system did he buy?

You would be surprised at the number of people who have no station in life that try to find glory for themselves in religious environments.

Wow, sounds, um, uh, interesting, yeah, we'll go with that :) Is there a pad button on your DI? Also, what kind of DI's are you using? What kind of In ear system did he buy?

Pretty sure there is not a pad button, there is a ground lift button that eliminated/introduced hum depending on which way it is flipped.

The monitors were from a company called "Samepage". They are touchscreen computer screens with 16 different channels. You plug in your headset and each station can control their own mix. Sound quality was OK, but we were missing a lot of instruments. Supposedly the same system will also let you read music so you don't need paper copies. But all we saw last night was the mixer on each screen.

Vaugn....if you max out the EQ settings (bass, treble, mid, etc) on you in ear monitor mix for what you want to hear....it ought to give you a considerable volumn boost.

OK, that SamePage product looks like a great idea...on paper anyway. The gadget geek in me says that would be pretty nice, but the performing musician in me says, wow can I ever see a lot of difficulty trying to tweak a mix mid performance if needed with a touch screen.

Regarding the low output of the Tech21 pedals, it sure sounds like there is a pad on either the DI or the input to the mixer. But then again, the nasty overdrive you are describing kinda sounds like the board is getting too much signal and causing the channel to peak so who knows...ummm, how experienced are the sound guys there? I'm assuming they are volunteer also? And from the sound of it, they don't have a whole lot of sound engineering background.

Well that is a tough situation all the way around. Good sound guys...err, or at least competent ones...are vital to a "quiet stage". The fact that you are giving it a shot, especially in the face of all of the challenges you have described, speaks well of you.

OK, that SamePage product looks like a great idea...on paper anyway. The gadget geek in me says that would be pretty nice, but the performing musician in me says, wow can I ever see a lot of difficulty trying to tweak a mix mid performance if needed with a touch screen. I was thinking about that, if you use the music reading function, the mixer disapears when the music is on the screen, so in a live setting you have to close the music and pull up the mixer while playing. It actually wasn't that bad with just the mixer pulled up though, the screens were rather large and easy to "touch".

Regarding the low output of the Tech21 pedals, it sure sounds like there is a pad on either the DI or the input to the mixer. But then again, the nasty overdrive you are describing kinda sounds like the board is getting too much signal and causing the channel to peak so who knows...ummm, how experienced are the sound guys there? I'm assuming they are volunteer also? And from the sound of it, they don't have a whole lot of sound engineering background. The sound guys are certainly volunteers, who knows why they were in a bad mood last night. Maybe they didn't know about the new monitor setup? So they show up for rehearsal and are told "hook this up and get those regular monitors off stage"? If I were in charge, we would probably hire a sound guy at least part time. Best equipment in the world means nothing with bad sound.

I never got a chance to look at the board for the "pad". I will ask about this Sunday morning durring warmup. I was only able to look at the direct box and all other info came from comunication with the sound booth.

Well that is a tough situation all the way around. Good sound guys...err, or at least competent ones...are vital to a "quiet stage". The fact that you are giving it a shot, especially in the face of all of the challenges you have described, speaks well of you.

My answers in red. The meeting with the pastor is this afternoon. We will seee how it goes.

Vaugn....if you max out the EQ settings (bass, treble, mid, etc) on you in ear monitor mix for what you want to hear....it ought to give you a considerable volumn boost.

Noted, we didn't even think of that last night. Worth a try.

It could be worse, he could be insisting that you buy these:
http://ultimateears.com/en-us/products/18-pro
:D

Me, I use $10 memorex buds, they aren't the greatest, but I can hear what I need.

Bud, do not be giving him any ideas! :mrgreen:

...They did reiterate that the congregation most likely won't care weather they hear the guitars or not, they won't care what they sound like (good or bad), and it was just "awesome" to not have amplifiers on stage.

...And then there's this. "The congregation doesn't care" to me really translates to "we, the sound guys don't care and/or the worship ministry leadership doesn't care...and you are not going to be in the mix anyway so don't worry about it." I have to (rhetorically) ask, why have guitars on stage at all? It is all a visual show at that point...except for the fact that your most important audience member hears you loud and clear.

...And then there's this. "The congregation doesn't care" to me really translates to "we, the sound guys don't care and/or the worship ministry leadership doesn't care...and you are not going to be in the mix anyway so don't worry about it." I have to (rhetorically) ask, why have guitars on stage at all? It is all a visual show at that point...except for the fact that your most important audience member hears you loud and clear.

Good question, the WL actually likes a lot of guitar in the FOH mix. I have heard him first hand ask for more guitar at Sunday morning sound check. And he has "councilled" the sound guys about guitar levels in the FOH (he wants them kept up). Friends and family in the congregation say that we are usually turned up well, but the sound guys have made it known that it is against their will.

The sound guys were probably thrilled that they couldn't turn us up any more last night. The WL has made such a spectacle at this point that he would probably never admit the pedals weren't working. All of this is seperate from the on-stage sound issues.

I just listened to the youtube video of the Liverool with the ten different effects. This thing should sound better, even if the volume is low, I wonder about the sound guys' part in this now. Poor EQ settings maybe?

Audio-Technica Attenuator (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=audio+technica+attenuator&hl=en&prmd=ivns&resnum=3&biw=1207&bih=687&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=12551640699386682190&ei=giRMTZi6NYT68Abk6r32Dg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CFoQ8wIwAA#) - a handy device to have when trying to solve problems that seem to be beyond the sound guys ability. That, and a good DI should let you match up reasonably well, and adjust your pedals to get a fuller sound.

The $500 headphones thing is so bizarre. What you hear only needs to be good enough to insure you are playing in time, and level is reasonably appropriate, i.e., when everything drops down, you drop down. Your own personal mix will likely have more of you than the house, but that's the whole point of having your own mixer. A set of Etymotic ER-6i's will be less than $100, and sound great for what you are doing, plus you won't look like you're working in Johnson Space Center. Your personal monitoring phones/buds only need to cover your frequency response. A $15 set would work, honestly.

Ya know there are an alarming number of surveys done in churches that show that the congregation actually does care about the sound quality. Sure they may not notice little differences, or be able to explain them, but all know when sound is good and bad. Instruments disappearing into the mix means mud sound.. There is alot of research to indicate that some of the back door flow of people out of church is from bad sound. I don't think the statement "they can't tell the difference" is a valid argument at all anymore.

I've found that the output on my Blonde is a little low; part of it is the pedal itself, and part of it is that I run the gain pretty low on it... around 9 o'clock, with volume about 3 o'clock. With my guitar volume on 10, the sound might be good for a soft rhythm part, but that's about it; if I cranked the gain up on it, though, I could use it by itself with no problem. I never play through just the Blonde, though... I always have either a drive or boost pedal on with it, so I guess it's kind of like running a preamp. My signal strength to the board is excellent, and the sound guys have no problems with my setup. Maybe one of the other Character pedals would work better for you than the Liverpool?

To me, it's crazy that your WL expects the team to buy gear that the church should be providing (crazy, too, that any of your team went out and bought the expensive headphones when he told them to). I've played in some very large, established churches over the years, and have never seen one that didn't provide keyboards, drum kit, and all sound gear... including IEM earpieces for each member of the team, and spares.

I'm really looking forward to hearing how the meeting goes with the pastor today... I'll be praying for you and the team.

...And then there's this. "The congregation doesn't care" to me really translates to "we, the sound guys don't care and/or the worship ministry leadership doesn't care...and you are not going to be in the mix anyway so don't worry about it." I have to (rhetorically) ask, why have guitars on stage at all? It is all a visual show at that point...except for the fact that your most important audience member hears you loud and clear.

There is a dose of truth to this. On the occasion I have been in the congregation I have noticed that the electric guitars are often not in the mix in any discernable way. That is not %100 the case. It depends on the tastes and perspecives of the person running the sound. Lets face it there are many Christians who prefer more traditional music and consider electric guitars as an unwelcome addition.

I know many people who have gotten bent out of shape about it too. For myself I don't worry about it. I am there to serve God and so is the sound guy. I don't require any personal glory and God knows I am standing there playing for Him. I am also contributing in some small way to the life and vitality of the church. Thats what really counts to me.

I am not suggesting you aren't justified feeling the way you do. I am just saying thats my perspective. Besides I play a lot outside the confines of the church so I get to turn up and rip there.

The $500 headphones thing is so bizarre.

Agreed, we were informed last night that the $500 model is required by the monitor company. Appearantly "low cost" options won't work with the system according to them. However, most of us were using home-quality headphones ($20 or less last night) with no troubles. I won't be buying them, that's for sure. I still consider myself resigned and am just waiting for the next guy to step up.

I've found that the output on my Blonde is a little low; part of it is the pedal itself, and part of it is that I run the gain pretty low on it... around 9 o'clock, with volume about 3 o'clock. With my guitar volume on 10, the sound might be good for a soft rhythm part, but that's about it;

Interesting, this is similar to the problem we were having. Not enough "juice" so to speak. We were hoping to use this pedal as a clean amp simulator and run our regular pedal boards into it for the OD and effects. Turning the gain up wouldn't help us much. I do have a tubescreamer I can put in front of it and leave on. But that will effect the clean sound for sure.

Technical stuff first:

We were running a 10 foot guitar cable out of the “output” on the pedal, to a direct box

I would be looking real hard at that direct box. Most are designed for hotter signals than you get from a guitar or guitar level device. Even if the Liverpool is intended to go to a line input, I doubt that it is even consumer line level.

The monitors were from a company called "Samepage". They are touchscreen computer screens with 16 different channels. You plug in your headset and each station can control their own mix. Sound quality was OK, but we were missing a lot of instruments.


Yeah, they just threw money at it. It is things like this that make me thankful that our band was almost completely ignored in the upcoming renovation of our church's sound system.

Agreed, we were informed last night that the $500 model is required by the monitor company. Appearantly "low cost" options won't work with the system according to them.


Without knowing more, I expect the system is designed for 600 Ohm phones and not the typical 32 Ohm consumer phones. Hi Z phones can be had for a heck of a lot less than $500. Look at Grado.

Now the personal stuff.

More words were exchanged ... faith was questioned by both sides, commitment to the mission was questioned by the WL

Okay, that is wrong. Just plain wrong. There is no call for that. It is unprofessional and just bad leadership. Friction is inevitable, the only place without friction is where nothing is moving. The thing is to smooth that friction and keep things proceeding, not making the problem personal. It was wrong for the bass player to go there, but the WL has even a higher standard to meet.

I did try to talk to the sound guys, ... They did reiterate that the congregation most likely won't care weather they hear the guitars or not, they won't care what they sound like (good or bad), and it was just "awesome" to not have amplifiers on stage.

Ya know, that sure sounds like an invitation to buzz off to me.

Meet with the pastor. Keep it calm, professional and results oriented. Make your points clearly and politely. Let him know that you are the expert on guitar sound in the room, that the "no amp" approach is not the only or best solution and not universal or necessary.

For the more difficult, personality issues, paint the picture and let him write the caption. When it comes to guitar sound, you're an expert so it's fine for you to say how it should be done. When it comes to the WL's dismissive and insulting behavior you are only a witness and the pastor is the judge.

Best of luck with this.

...And then there's this. "The congregation doesn't care" to me really translates to "we, the sound guys don't care and/or the worship ministry leadership doesn't care...and you are not going to be in the mix anyway so don't worry about it." I have to (rhetorically) ask, why have guitars on stage at all? It is all a visual show at that point...except for the fact that your most important audience member hears you loud and clear.

If it is so "awesome*" to not have amps on stage, how awesome would it be to not have guitars either.

* Maybe it's just me, but in the context of things that happen in church I am very reluctant to use that word for anything less than the divine.

There is a dose of truth to this. On the occasion I have been in the congregation I have noticed that the electric guitars are often not in the mix in any discernable way. That is not %100 the case. It depends on the tastes and perspecives of the person running the sound. Lets face it there are many Christians who prefer more traditional music and consider electric guitars as an unwelcome addition.

I know many people who have gotten bent out of shape about it too. For myself I don't worry about it. I am there to serve God and so is the sound guy. I don't require any personal glory and God knows I am standing there playing for Him. I am also contributing in some small way to the life and vitality of the church. Thats what really counts to me.

I am not suggesting you aren't justified feeling the way you do. I am just saying thats my perspective. Besides I play a lot outside the confines of the church so I get to turn up and rip there.

Oh, no hard feelings here. I'm just asking the question that IF the premise as I described is accurate (and it sounds like it probably isn't), as a church, why go through the trouble, and for that matter the expense, of having guitars on stage?

Personally I'm there to play my guitar and lead in worship music to the best of my ability. I have very limited control if I'm in the mix or not so I'll leave that to the sound guy. All I know is that I was a guy that was reluctantly dragged back into a church by my wife having abandoned it for years. It was when I walked into that church and heard one of the most talented guitarists I have ever seen that my ears and my heart were opened to hear what was being said that day. If I can be used in that capacity...well that's why I play. That's why even though I care a great deal about my tone and want it to be the very best it can be, if all I had was a one of those Toys'r'us combo kits...I'd still do it :smile: What I hope to contribute here is encouragement, to pass along little things that I have learned through my experience transitioning to a "quiet stage" in hopes that it may help someone, and maybe even pick up a few new tips and tricks from others!

If it is so "awesome*" to not have amps on stage, how awesome would it be to not have guitars either.

* Maybe it's just me, but in the context of things that happen in church I am very reluctant to use that word for anything less than the divine.

Haha! Being in one of the hot spots for NASCAR I can't tell you how overused and undervalued that word is....If you don't understand what I mean, just catch a post race interview with the winning driver sometime and count the number of times the word "awesome" is used :lol:

Without knowing more, I expect the system is designed for 600 Ohm phones and not the typical 32 Ohm consumer phones. Hi Z phones can be had for a heck of a lot less than $500. Look at Grado.

FWIW...According to SamePage's own website their "recommended" (meaning for sale on the accessories page) ear buds are Westone UM1s...25 ohm.

Interesting, this is similar to the problem we were having. Not enough "juice" so to speak. We were hoping to use this pedal as a clean amp simulator and run our regular pedal boards into it for the OD and effects. Turning the gain up wouldn't help us much. I do have a tubescreamer I can put in front of it and leave on. But that will effect the clean sound for sure.

In a pinch (or if I had to... :wink:), I suspect I could dial in the Blonde to sound pretty good at volume- heck, maybe even great- and use my guitar volume knob to control the clean/gain tones. To be honest, I've never really tried that, as I like my pedalboard & haven't had any issues crop up about using it at church. I could shrink my board down, though, as I don't "pedal dance" near as much when I'm leading worship as when I'm just playing guitar (which I miss sometimes!).

I have my Timmy set for pretty clean, and my Eternity Fuse set for low/med gain. Both pedals are very touch sensitive, so I can go from clean to dirty with just pick attack. Lately, I find myself just leaving the Eternity on for most stuff... it's always at least a little dirty, but still sounds good even on the quiet songs, and the congregation doesn't mind the dirt. :mrgreen:

First, no the tech21 pedals do not sound as good as a real tube amp. However, they are 100% functional as advertised. In my experience using a liverpool every Sunday for the past year and a half, I have never had to turn the level up past 10:00. Something else is going on with your system. (I do keep the drive and character knobs up around 12:00 most of the time, then back off the guitar volume for my clean tone. That still shouldn't affect the output level that much.)

As for the rest of it, that sounds like a really awful situation. Whether it's all his fault or not (since I'm not there I won't make a judgment on that matter) it sounds to me like it's time for the WL to move on for the benefit of everyone involved.

Well guys, the meeting is over and done with. Board members were there along with the pastor and WL. Without going into too much detail, the entire band was dismissed from all future obligations, including this Sunday. They will be putting together another group ASAP.

Leadership (multiple people within the church) had serious concerns that any member of the band would question the WL. We didn't get to say anything on our behalf. We weren't lectured and nothing negative was said by either side, but it was made clear that we were expected to follow without question and it was time for a new group to step up. The meeting was only about fifteen minutes.

No previous issues were addressed, all questions from the band were dismissed as "not being relevent" since we were no longer going to play.

I am not too upset about it as I had technically resigned already. The church has changed over the years as it has grown and trippled in size since I started attending. Others in the group were upset. Seriously, this was probably for the best with the recent events.

The only thing left for them now is to find 8 musicians that would like to play 20+ hours per week for free after buying $500 headsets and don't mind being told what to think. Shouldn't be hard.

Most importantly, the drummer did keep his receipt for his headphones and there is a 30 day return window he will be taking advantage of. :mrgreen:

Thanks to all who attempted to help and offered advice. I am hanging out with a buddy tonight who runs sound for a couple local groups. He has the night off and offered to let me try out the Liverpool with some pro PA gear (as long as I bring a case of beer). If I can get this thing to work, it would make a handy backup for gigs.

I'm not able to think of anything to say, except that I misunderstood the extent of the dysfunction in the church when I made my first response. Vaya con Dios, bud. As someone said, there's a reason for everything, so moving on is the best thing here.

Well, good riddance to them! I feel sorry for the next group of guys they ridicule and browbeat into the ground.

!?!

Wow!

Definitely sounds like a good time to part ways.

Praying for your group man...it ain't right...in a church of all places.

Vaughn, I've gotta ask 'cause I'm curious... what kind of church is this?

Wow, leadership is so dialed into God that it is divisive to question them, must be something,huh? Granted, there are right and wrong ways to disagree with anyone in leadership, but, from what you've posted, it's sounded right for the most part...

I always used $16 Skullcandy "Inked" buds with our Aviom system and they were perfect. But no matter how good you sound in your own Aviom mix, it's still up to the sound guy to work you into the house mix. Here's a question for you: How many weeks do you think a singer would show up to sing into a muted mic? Yet, we show up weeks/months/years in a row with the hope that maybe we'll be heard in the mix this time. Einstein's definition of insanity.

Wow...didn't see that coming. :shock: Really sorry to hear things went down like that. I mean, what do you even say to that?

... Yet, we show up weeks/months/years in a row with the hope that maybe we'll be heard in the mix this time. ....LOL. I'm so happy when my wife says, "I could hear you today!" :) !@#@#^ sound guys :). But, hey, I'm having fun...

Leadership (multiple people within the church) had serious concerns that any member of the band would question the WL. We didn't get to say anything on our behalf. We weren't lectured and nothing negative was said by either side, but it was made clear that we were expected to follow without question and it was time for a new group to step up. The meeting was only about fifteen minutes.

The order of friars who lead at my church operate under that sort of rule of obedience. They've taken such a vow. Having taken such a vow themselves they don't expect that of those who haven't.

I wonder how the WL's meeting with the board is going to go three months from now when they still don't have a band and / or are still paying guys "just to fill in until we get more volunteers."

Anyway, enjoy the freedom and find a church that welcomes your service.

A picket line would seem appropriate.

Vaughn you can bring your big ugly amp up on our stage anytime bro!

It usually proves futile when fools circle the wagons to keep from looking foolish.

Pretty sure there is not a pad button, there is a ground lift button that eliminated/introduced hum depending on which way it is flipped.

The monitors were from a company called "Samepage". They are touchscreen computer screens with 16 different channels. You plug in your headset and each station can control their own mix. Sound quality was OK, but we were missing a lot of instruments. Supposedly the same system will also let you read music so you don't need paper copies. But all we saw last night was the mixer on each screen.
Somebody laid out the dough, that samepage system is a little spendy, more so than even the aviom system. It does take a bit of work to get everything for a full band in 16 channels, but with a little creativity, it can be done.

i hate to read about this kind of stuff going on. I've been lucky and have been with the same WL for nearly 10 years who defintely has our back in all issues. We've had to deal with issues before but nothing this major.

That being said, sometimes a door being shut is better than everybody being bitter about a compromised solution to the problem. Best of luck to you and the rest of the band. I hope things work out (and from my experience, they usually tend to work out better than before).

haha...one time at my church we just put all the amps under the stage and miced them.

I find it sad when 'leadership' means 'dictatorship'.

I just read thru this entire saga with shock and amazement.

I hate to say it but the one thing lacking in any form whatsoever was a sense of goodnes, kindness, unity and trust. In a Church!!!

It's understood that a leader of ANY outfit must be strong and decisive, but not at the expense of drawing from his team members' experience and know-how.
Someone said it in the thread, and I reckon it sums it all up. He tried to use technology to make up for his incompetence.

I live in Africa, where, on a Sunday Morning you will hear worship from 6,000 strong Congregations in Johannesburg City, all the way down to acapella from 6 people under a handy tree in the bush somewhere.
Sadly, our affluence tends to get in the way, instead of making the way easier.
Hopefully, we do our best with what we have, no matter what that is.

Forgive your idiot WL, forgive the Oversight of the church and their massive PA budget.
Forgive yourself,too!

Go on and find a church where your talents can be given back and you don't feel the urge to throttle somebody!

Hey Airguitar,

You are from Johannesburg?

You wouldn't know an evangelist over there named Deon Hockey would you?
I know Deon.

Hey Airguitar,

You are from Johannesburg?

You wouldn't know an evangelist over there named Deon Hockey would you?
I know Deon.

Sorry, ChickenKiller, I don't know him. I lived in Germany the last 10 years and only moved back to Johannesburg last December, so not really current on who's who.

If I meet him I'll say the Chicken Killer isd looking for him... :twisted:

Sorry, ChickenKiller, I don't know him. I lived in Germany the last 10 years and only moved back to Johannesburg last December, so not really current on who's who.

If I meet him I'll say the Chicken Killer isd looking for him... :twisted:

Here is his Website buddy. If he is close go check him out. . .

http://deonhockeyhmi.org/

And now you know why people head for the bar instead of church to find acceptance...pathetic

I feel all this pain!!! Being on a worship team for 21 years, we finally went to the Aviom system which helps with hearing voices and guitars. BUT, when you do this, this gives full contol to the sound people who think that what you get from them is what you need not what you want!! Our church has echo like mad so the amps went but the drums stayed and echo now so we are going to encapsulate them and see how that works. Most amps miked do well just so long as you can hear them as monitors. It still bounces so they thought by getting rid of the amps, this would solve the problem. NOT!!
We hear loud voices now which echo and the sad part is that the sound team lean out of the window ( or opening ) above the rear exit doors and say " that sounds good " or have someone walk around the perimeter of the church listening and saying the same thing.
Acoustic soundboard needs to be put up and cover the back class room windows (which have t.v.'s ) (outside) for absorbtion material and encapsulate the drums whiled miked and then work on your sound issues.
I don't think amps are the problem until you a shreadder who shows out but that IMHO
Jim

Somebody laid out the dough, that samepage system is a little spendy, more so than even the aviom system. It does take a bit of work to get everything for a full band in 16 channels, but with a little creativity, it can be done.

My dad's church uses the Samepage system. The church was founded by my grandparents and I attended there until I was 17 or 18. Though I have a new church family now, I find myself back at the old church several times a year for various reasons.

He has shown the Samepage system to me. It was pretty impressive but NOT something that would be of any use for my worship team. I don't know how much they paid for the system, but they figured that it would pay for it's self within something like 5-7 years by reducing the church's paper usage.

As far as the issues that the OP is having (and forgive me, it has been a while since I actually read the original post), my advice would be to pray and seek direction. Sometimes, being a Christian means being right and still loosing. That is why it is so important to have an interactive relationship with your creator. He knows far better than we do and we should always trust his direction (even if it doesn't make sense).

There is always a possibility that God wants you to move on. I know that I wouldn't feel right playing in the situation you have described. I see the worship world as polarized. There are those who believe God has called them to play skillfully, and they make every effort to plan and rehearse every move before hand. There are also those who believe that worship should be more spirit lead and spontaneous. I know that a lot of times the spirit lead crowd is characterized as being lazy and sounding poorly because of lack of practice, but trust me, I have heard a lot of very poor sounding worship teams that subscribe to the former philosophy as well. The truth is that there are people who do both both types of services well and people who do both types of services very poorly.

I KNOW that God didn't call me play overly rehearsed music. He didn't give me that skill set and it would be a mis-use of my calling to try and do so. That is exactly the reason I don't attend my family's church anymore.

Go to God and seek his direction, you very well may find that he has another place for you where you talents AND your amp will be more welcome.

After reading and partially skimming the rest of the thread I see that some of my previous comment is irrelevant. I am really sorry that things ended the way that they did. I would high tail it out of that church ASAP.

I still think that you shouldn't give up on using your talents to minister to others. I think that you just need to find the right environment to do it in. I know that a healthy majority of churches will share some of the atmosphere that you just got through experiencing but I PROMISE that there are some extremely fun and rewarding groups to play with out there.

...First problem we experienced, the "clean" setting didn't send enough signal to the direct box...

The next problem was, when the band wasn't playing and we tried to get a good clean sound, these pedals sucked the mid range right out, lots of highs, tons of bass, no mids no matter how high we turned up the "mid" knob on the pedal...

So anyone have experience with the Tech 21 pedals? Am I right to assume they have a good signal strength and the problem is with our board? Or do they need a preamp to boost the clean signal?

We were running a 10 foot guitar cable out of the “output” on the pedal, to a direct box, then a twenty foot mic cable to the master snake input in the stage. The other end of the snake goes into the FOH board.

I play the Liverpool at church too and actually really like it (after some tweeking ;D) more than to haul my tube amps to church. 1. weight, 2. we are a small congregation in a small room and we can't really turn up on stage (also no choir). In that situation the pedal through my monitor sounds better than my amp on 1/2 (even my small Orange ad5).

Now to your problem: The Outputon the pedal is really strong and I turn it past 10 o'clock so your problem must be somewhere else. The midrange thing is tricky with this pedal - turn bass, mids and treb to 12 o'clock and then set your basic tone with the drive and character knobs (more character is more mids, less is that jangly oldschool- transistorradio - sound). When you found a setting you like, finetune it with the eq-knobs. Tell us how it sounds with your pedals. Curious cause I actually never play it with pedals up front, I use it exactly like mrSlush:


...(I do keep the drive and character knobs up around 12:00 most of the time, then back off the guitar volume for my clean tone. That still shouldn't affect the output level that much.)...

Wanted to add my two cents. Our church is still using amps. We may go ampless soon though. I am so fustrated with loud stage volumes, I'm ready to agree with it.
I just started to use a Pod HD-500 and am loving it. It sound, feels and responds great. I have a very nice tube amp that I had custom built, but I'm tired of telling people to turn there LOUD amps down.
There is no excuse in churches ruining people's hearing. Just because bars do it doesn't make it right. God cannot possibly be pleased with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that those who don't have this problem should go ampless. What I AM saying is if guitar players can't listen to "turn it down" then maybe they should not play or they should play without amps.
I am really tired of going to churches that abuse my ears.

I think I'd move on or at least tell him you're not interested in using his direct boxes. It sounds like you have a nice setup with that amp.

We use amps and put them off-stage or in iso cabs. Nobody plays anything louder than a 12" combo.
I have a Rockbug if I need to do direct ( no amps)
But an guitar amp is a big part of my sound ( Mesa Express 5:25)
What's next? No Leslie cabinet with a Hammond B3?

We use amps and put them off-stage or in iso cabs. Nobody plays anything louder than a 12" combo.
I have a Rockbug if I need to do direct ( no amps)
But an guitar amp is a big part of my sound ( Mesa Express 5:25)
What's next? No Leslie cabinet with a Hammond B3?Sorry, dude... No B3 allowed.:cry:

sorry for the frustration and acrimony! it doesn't remind me of serving. i am fortunate to have it the way i want it: bring your amp or go direct, amp on the platform or behind. i am not familiar with the pa at the church ( i don't attend there, i play at a friday service), but i do know the sound guys are primo. what you ask for in your monitor is what you get, all the more impressive because three different praise bands, all with different gear, rehearse and perform on this pa every week. besides that, the group i play with is (besides myself and the worship leader) a rotating crew of musicians with different gear every week. all this is the fruit of the worship leader, who (though quite young) has been doing this for a good while and displays a true servant's attitude. he has his eye on the ball mind you, moving ahead toward making it sound good as soon as we start rehearsing, definitely the leader, but leading with tact and humbleness and flexibility. he requires that it sound good, but allows "good" to be defined by the group as a whole, gladly taking suggestions from others and not afraid to actually try them. you don't have to play with him long to realise his own suggestions come from his ears and his heart, and not from his ego. that attitude is contagious and makes for some awesome, positive. uplifting music. kinda what it's about no?

Well guys, the meeting is over and done with. Board members were there along with the pastor and WL. Without going into too much detail, the entire band was dismissed from all future obligations, including this Sunday. They will be putting together another group ASAP.

Leadership (multiple people within the church) had serious concerns that any member of the band would question the WL. We didn't get to say anything on our behalf. We weren't lectured and nothing negative was said by either side, but it was made clear that we were expected to follow without question and it was time for a new group to step up. The meeting was only about fifteen minutes.

No previous issues were addressed, all questions from the band were dismissed as "not being relevent" since we were no longer going to play.



:shock: nah, REALLY? :shock:

At this whole situation, but especially the above post.

At least the guys below gave the right of reply -Was the scene anything like this:
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.http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/tt3.jpg

(Sorry, just trying ease the pain.....:wink:)

Could you do what my church does?

1. Amps behind the stage, mic'd.
2. In-ear monitors.
3. Your problems solved.

I might also add... the church needs to find a better sound man, who knows how to run the above mentioned type of guitar system. Also, it is possible to either buy or make enclosed cabinets that can be miked and placed in a completely different room than the sanctuary. Radial makes a pair of DI boxes that allow you to send a signal up to 300 feet away from the source
http://www.radialeng.com/re-sgi.htm

The in-ear monitors, such as AVIOM (brand) are spectacular. Each musician has their own 16-channel stand-mounted monitor mixer, and you can dial in your guitar (or any mix of any instrument) to your liking.
http://www.aviom.com/Aviom-Products-1/Mixers-1/A-16II-Personal-Mixer

Then let the choir wail, they can't possibly drowned out the in-ear monitors... and the guitar amps can be located in any room in the church (almost) and off the stage, etc...

I still (smell) think the root of this is that your church doesn't have a quality sound man running the main system... or they would not be fidgeting about such as you describe.

Our church uses a Splawn amp head for guitar 1, and an Egnator quad pre-amp/VHT power amp setup for guitar 2... they rock... and out front in the sanctuary, its like a live concert every service...

IMHO, cheesy and low-budget is NOT the way to lead a quality worship music service....

Well guys, the meeting is over and done with. Board members were there along with the pastor and WL. Without going into too much detail, the entire band was dismissed from all future obligations, including this Sunday. They will be putting together another group ASAP.


What a nice solution... if anyone has an opinion, we'll just formally execute them and publically humiliate them.

I would be looking for a new church I suppose... sounds like there is a root of something there that has nothing to do with sharing the Gospel of Christ... which is why the entire Worship Music thing is in existence, right?

Wow....

I can feel the waves of ignorance from here.............

Wow, that really just sucks.
Does that church really think that they have it so well off that they can just cut out the current band and get a new one in like that?

I would definitely be looking for another church, but I'd hang out just a little while for at least 2 more sundays to watch the horror show and giggle at the WL trying to get a totally untested group to perform properly.

I know it ain't right, but I'm working on my vengefulness...
:(

"Schadenfreude" is the word.

Not pretty, but very human.

Also very human, is the OP's church leadership. The one thing we can't know is exactly what the situation looks like to that WL and leadership. It is apparent that they are disinterested in the musician's point of view, still not pretty but human.

But viddy this if you will, they've been told by experts, their paid experts that the way to get a quality sound and performance is by using this gear in this way. They are emotionally and financially invested in this, mostly because this is what (all) they know and what they know is what experts tell them. The expert says do this! The band members rebel! Whatever is wrong with them, they must not be dedicated to doing what is right.

In a new thread I describe some of our church's recent sound system experience. The bottom line is that you cannot really blame people for believing what they are told. You can marvel at the quirk of human nature that gives a consultant who may never have set foot in your church more credibility than the guys who've been there for years, but you can't really blame them for human behavior.

Will they learn, will it be painful and expensive. And, even more is there pleasure to be had in watching the process? Yes. Yes. Yes. And somewhat sadly, yes.

I wish I could just use an electric guitar at my church, let alone put some OD on it.

I'm sure I'd get the furry eyeball from some of the older members. We're all about cramming acoustic guitars close to mics and getting less than great or consistent results.

Even with only piano and acoustic guitars, we still get comments about "too much emphasis on the beat (especially whichever beat is the evil one- is it the third?).

I wish I could just use an electric guitar at my church, let alone put some OD on it.

I'm sure I'd get the furry eyeball from some of the older members. We're all about cramming acoustic guitars close to mics and getting less than great or consistent results.

Even with only piano and acoustic guitars, we still get comments about "too much emphasis on the beat (especially whichever beat is the evil one- is it the third?).

Well, opinions mindsets and old-ways-of-thinking are never gonna change if you don't get out there and be the first. I was the first (And only) at my church and it was indeed VERY rough in the beginning.
But between learning where I fit in and forcing the rest of the legacy band to make me space in the sound...the music is MUCH better nowadays.

Wow!!! Not sure what to think about this situation. In my church we work together to improve the sound quality of our services. None of us by the way WL included feel we individually know how to achieve this. I'm a guitar player and I love playing through amps!!! My current stage rig includes two separate plexi full stacks (50w & 100w), Vox AC 30, and a Fender Twin Reverb. I'm not under any illusions ... Never could I use these on stage! The cabs are mic'd and mixed in a separate room then fed to the main mixer. Before now I accepted less because I believe that deafening volume is not a part of quality sound. We did however collectively work towards a solution. Now in the amp rooms you get about 140db but in the sanctuary a good mix of quality sounding guitar. In fact when I joined the team I was the only person that used an amp of the two bands at our church and now every guitar player uses a "loud" amp of some sort.

don't know if its been said....but encourage him to let you build, or help him build an isolation cabinet to put your amp or cab in and mic it up...use a really long speaker cable to go the the cabinet from your head on stage....if you use a combo get very long 1/4 inch and ventilate the box so it doesn't get too hot...put the iso-cab in another room or under/behind the stage. You will have the freedom to get the best tone out of your amp because you will be able to turn up your amp, then the sound man can mix that tone with the band....worked for my old church.

Thanks for the education.

This video is just about the worst thing I've ever seen. IMHO, of course.
Nice guitar, I guess.

Good luck with your amp problem. FWIW, the Rev. Al Green has no problems with amps in church.

GiL6xqmMQoc

THANK YOU!!

Just Quit! There's a church out there just dying to use your talent AND your amp!

Just Quit! There's a church out there just dying to use your talent AND your amp!

Umm, how much of the thread did you read? The situation was resolved some months ago.

It should get locked up.

Maybe just a note in the Original post linking to the post with the resolution...
Re-reading my last post, I hope it did not come across condescendingly, it wasn't intended that way.

Here's a question for you: How many weeks do you think a singer would show up to sing into a muted mic? Yet, we show up weeks/months/years in a row with the hope that maybe we'll be heard in the mix this time. Einstein's definition of insanity.

Wow... I think this sums up a lot.

I find this type of situation to be a silver lining; it brings a sort of justification when explaining to my wife 'why' we should 'invest' in some new Line 6 gear!:wink::lol::razz:

A Carmen Ghia set at 7 oclock would be at a vol level of approx 1 !!
Maybe you could find a compromise and locate the amps off stage, like the bands used to do on the Ed Sullivan Show, and mic them. The off stage ISO Cab idea is a worthy one to propose too. If it's good enuff for Rev Billy G ...

I have been the worship leader at my church for about 10 years (I am 32 now). Looking at the issue at hand I would offer a couple of thoughts.

From a technical side I think that the Tech 21 stuff is great. I have a Liverpool and a Blonde and at one time also had a British which I loved as well. My current pedal setup is my Tele or Strat - Fulltone Fulldrive - Boss SD1 - Line 6 M13 - Liverpool (when using Tele) or Blonde (when using Strat) - direct box - PA. So far this has been the most "amp-like" solution I can come up with. I have a POD HD500 I use at home mainly for practice and recording but until I can get it to sound like my Liverpool or Blonde it won't go on stage. I have a floor monitor right in front of me so I don't have the disconnect that most guitarist feel if there isn't an amp on stage with them. Our other guitarist uses an X3Live and gets some decent tone out of it as well but I still prefer the Tech 21 for amp modeling. I have NEVER had an issue with signal level. The level on my Liverpool is set at 11:00 and gain set at 12:00. It sounds like an EQ issue to me.

Outside of the technical aspect, I can relate to your worship leader (outside of forcing people to buy gear and speaking down to them) and to you in the situation. We made the decision about 6 years ago to remove amps from the stage. We were having too many issues with sound bleeding over and people on stage being unable to hear what they needed to hear. After speaking with my pastor and reviewing all options this is what we decided to do. It didn't go over well but we had to do something to resolve the sound issue. Luckily we have a sound man and worship team that are willing to work together and come up with a mix that everyone can work with. I can also say that I would love to my amp on stage. No matter what setup you use, nothing will ever replace the tone you get from an amp. I have considered shielding, running the amp off stage and micing it, using an iso box, you name it. In the end it comes down to me asking myself what purpose will it serve. I am there to be a worshiper first and a musician second. I can get a tone close enough to what I can get out of an amp with my current setup and unless my pastor wants to go back to amps on stage, we won't have them. My pastor doesn't understand "tone" or the "feel of tubes" that I do but he is the pastor and my authority, and that's that.

I just read the solution your church came up with. Sorry I missed that. I will be praying for you and your worship team. I cannot imagine how I would feel if I were in your situation. It sounds like there certainly needs to be some softening of hearts for many involved and perhaps some humility and understanding from the WL, sound techs, and rest of the worship team. The situation certainly doesn't sound like God's plan for worship. Know that God is in control and that anything no matter how bad it is can be an opportunity for God to be glorified.

ill start by saying this
i didnt read the whole first post but we (the church staff) solved this problem by buying a couple quality cabinets to have isolated in iso boxes that we built backstage and running the amps of stage but sending their signal to those cabs instead of the combo amp speakers

it gives us the great tone from out amps, control on stage, and keeps the stage volume down
if anyone wants more info on what/how we did this
shoot me a PM and ill get you some pics of our iso boxes (they are big enough to house 4x12 cabs, they are awesome)

Just a comment. If the muscians have self control and the sound guys know what they are doing, and you have a band leader who knows what he is doing, from a sound point of view, there should be no problem with amps on stage. Every pro band from clubs to concerts has/is doing just exactly that. The only real issue is one of looks. There are still a lot of church folks that are hung up on looking too rock and roll.

Just a comment. If the muscians have self control and the sound guys know what they are doing, and you have a band leader who knows what he is doing, from a sound point of view, there should be no problem with amps on stage. Every pro band from clubs to concerts has/is doing just exactly that. The only real issue is one of looks. There are still a lot of church folks that are hung up on looking too rock and roll.

Exactly. Add out of touch and culturally irrelevant.

If you have the right setup and a quiet running tube amp, and----you don't need to use too much gain-----there's no reason to have a stage volume problem. It's a great deal about appearances.


Just a comment. If the muscians have self control and the sound guys know what they are doing, and you have a band leader who knows what he is doing, from a sound point of view, there should be no problem with amps on stage. Every pro band from clubs to concerts has/is doing just exactly that. The only real issue is one of looks. There are still a lot of church folks that are hung up on looking too rock and roll.

I really don't liky synth. In our church we are small about 150 people (men, women, and childeren) We don't have a sound man so the PA is only set up for vocals. The drummer is unshielded and the instruments are pushed through the amps on stage. This works well for us and we haven't had many complaints. I would dread the day if I played in a larger church where there are no amps a shielded drummer and have to plug in an earpiece to hear myself play along with a click track. It's too much to think about.

Don't know if someone has asked or suggested this yet (200+ comments is a lot to read) but, how tall is your stage? I just went from an xt live to a handwired ac15 put under our stage. It's right under my feet so I'm getting some of that amp "feel" from the low end but virtually eliminating stage noise from the amp. Even ran wide open it's not loud enough to hurt the FOH mix. In fact, my sound guy is really digging it! Downside is no controlled feedback but I'm not really cool enough for that anyway lol.

At the end of the day we need to submit to our leaders and our authority. Whether its good tone or bad tone, its pretty irrelevant. Instead of opposing a your leader, perhaps see it as an opportunity to help them hear things the way you hear them. I'm not in your shoes, so can't say do this or do that. Our bigger venues at my church have amps out the back in a separate area and levels sent back to monitors. Our smaller venues we have amps on or behind the stage.

At the end of the day, if the FOH guy comes and tells me to turn it down. I turn it down. The thing I love about playing in church is the fact that it isn't actually about me, or about my "awesome" tones. Its about supporting the service, setting up the atmosphere for the Word to be preached. I think when the time comes that I make my playing guitar at church about me, I might have to really sit and think about why I am doing what I am doing. Not in the slightest saying that I being anything other than my very very best.

Good luck with your situation ;)

-Rob

P.S. Just wanted to ad that I don't get paid for playing at my church. I do it as a volunteer. Just wanted to clarify that my stand isn't on the fact that its a "paid gig" of any sort.

Amen Robbie_d

Every six months or so our Worship Leader gets a bug in his rear and decides that the guitar amps on stage are the root of all evil and all problems in the world could be solved if we just bought more Line 6 stuff (I mean Lincoln uses it so it HAS to be the best in the world right:?:).

I knew it!!!!!!!

Do you want to be responsible for.....for.......ThIS?????

zAx3yNQCjdQ&feature


I love that the bad guy goes around committing assault with a deadly weapon in a suit.

I knew it!!!!!!!

Do you want to be responsible for.....for.......ThIS?????

zAx3yNQCjdQ&feature


I love that the bad guy goes around committing assault with a deadly weapon in a suit.

A-and that last shot, what a bunch of hoes!

Vaughn - I think the Lord will re-direct you to another church where you can serve Him with your talents. For 7 years, I was a charter member part of a church worship team & contributed to the growth of the church from 15 members to 500+. During that time, I contributed countless hours on keys, guitar and bass - whatever was needed. I also made about $5K worth of gear from my studio available to worship team members for services or even for private recording projects.

Once the church got to a certain size, politics came more into the fray. We had to support "Red" because Bono was one of its proponents. Drums were isolated in a booth to the far stage left while my bass amp was far stage right - because it looked "cool" and other churches were doing it. Only singers had monitors, and we were constantly criticized for playing "out of sync". - duh! Mind you, the room only holds about 350-400 total anyway, so this was all overkill. After repeated entreaties to the newly elected "elders" - I was asked to put my explanations into writing. I did so, outlining the historical reasons for rhythm sections being in the center so all other musicians can hear them, and why a P.A. is supposed to be "sound REINFORCEMENT". I was labeled a "troublemaker" because I was not a "Red" supporter and would not toe the line for the new P&W group "image" over the degradation in music performance.

God then introduced me to a new church, Calvary-St. George's in NYC, that was undergoing a transition and greatly appreciated any help that I could give to them. I took this as a sign, and resigned from the other church. However, when I went to retrieve my gear, which I wanted to make available to Calvary, it had all disappeared! I then had a 6 month fight with the church elders over getting a donation receipt for the gear, and had to threaten a grand larceny charge in order to get one - not very Christian brotherhood minded, but at least I finally got the receipt!

I am now happily contributing bass, electric lead/slide, lap steel and acoustic 12 string in a very challenging but rewarding situation. The WL is an internationally acclaimed opera singer, pianist & conductor, and we will frequently have classical and jazz guest musicians from other countries who happen to be passing through in NYC. I may be asked to play a Robert Randolph type lap steel part on a Schubert piece or a Middle Eastern electric motif on a Matt Redman song, to extended jazz voicings on an old gospel hymn.

The Lord knows what you need and will answer your prayers. Just don't quit.

Wow JohnSS, they must have gotten notice that you were leaving.
I would have collected all my gear with a smile, then told them good-day.

Yeesh...if I couldn't play with my amp out, I don't think I could be heard in service.
And I definitely couldn't hear myself the way they have things wired.

What is "Red"?

What is "Red"?

The color red you mean?

RED is Bono's left wing advocacy group:

http://www.joinred.com/red/

What is "Red"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_Red

EDIT: Is eliminating AIDS in Africa political? If it is, I'll remove the above link.

RED and ONE are inextricably linked. They represent a number of left wing causes beyond AIDS, including trying to get Western nations to forgive debt run up by kleptocratic African nation military dictatorships. They do NOT contribute any money to the causes they claim to represent - they act as "advocates" (read: lobbyists) to pressure politicians and celebrities to influence their constituents and fans. I don't believe any church should make it a policy to demand that its members and worship leaders support such an organization, regardless of ideological orientation.

I see, I was just looking at the AIDS campaign. Some churches have an explicit social/political calling (for example liberation theology) but one should know that coming in.

I'm pretty shallow. I switched churches for better parking.

I assume he means this:
http://www.joinred.com/red/

A Digitech RP300a is the nucleus of my pedal board, everything else on there is in rotation. I have lots of pedals and I change them up some for new songs or just to change my sound some, but the RP allows me to run direct to the board, and a Morley A/B splitter lets me use my little Bugera V5 amp as a monitor. Sometimes we take me out of the mix and I crank up a little for that subtle in the backround sound. I also play either a jumbo 12 string or a tele, and with different presets, switching guitars is no big deal.

I myself only use a 15 w. Peavey or Epiphone at relatively low volume (enough to hear with drums, sax, bass and piano). No excess volume issues and everyone is professional enough in handling dynamics so that the focus can be on the worship and music, rather than on electronics.

When I started playing for my church the smallest amp I had was a 50w Marshall half stack which was normally set for overdrive in the power amp. My personal opinion is that I prefer the sound of tube amps connected to real speaker cabs with no attenuation and I'm horrible at sacrificing what I prefer due to other constraints. That said I'm also of the opinion that an awesome sounding LOUD tube amp that blows every other musician out of the water is terrible worship. I ended up following my worship leaders and turning the amp WAY down. This built report as a result and I started working on ways to get my beloved tone back without sacrificing the quality of the mix. The worship leaders and I were then working together and we now have converted storage rooms into amp rooms where I run as many as 5 large amps at a time with sufficient sound isolation. The best part has been seeing my fellow worship leaders/guitar players transition to large tube amps now that they can hear the quality of tone minus the deafening volume output.

...
I'm pretty shallow. I switched churches for better parking.

Hahaha, this made my day.

When I played at church I used either a Tech 21 Liverpool for very quiet or an Orange AD5 (5Watt Tube amp) for a little louder.

I was setting up on stage one time and our worship leader came over and unplugged my guitar from my amp and plugged it into one of those cube things. I was shocked and had to restrain myself from breaking his arms for touching my gear and the arrogance he was showing. I said "what are you doing?!" he says, "we don't use amps anymore we run everything thru the board". I said, "what?! That's craziness. How do you control your tone?!". Him, "oh the sound man will take care of it". Me,"what?! That makes no sense on any level! That explains why the praise band has sounded like total garbage the last couple months! Your a musician, you should know better than this nonsense!". Him, "well it works for me just fine. That's the way it is now". Me, "well I'm not playing without my amp. I'm the only one that knows what tone I want when. I can't flow or function as a musician without my amp. You can't either. Our worship has lost the passion and drive behind it because you make policies that don't allow the praise team members to flow freely in their gift. This is another one. Plug me back in or I'm packing up and leaving." he did. Church was ready to start. It was not the time or place for such a debate but it just happened. Then he asked to plug my amp into the system, I said sure. But well have to do a sound check and make sure the sound man gets me coming thru just like it's coming out the amp. Then he can blend my volume and I'll turn my amp up a little to monitor myself. I would've preferred micing the amp but there were no extra mic's. So we started playing and every time I turned it up just a touch to do a solo or something the sound man turned me down! AAHHHGH! so I hit my standby switch, unplugged from the board and kept playing. I controlled my volume and blended in and came up a little for the solo's. Afterwards most of the congregation said "I don't know what you did but once I could hear you playing you sounded great!". Point proven. That guy is no longer our leader and no longer plays in any church. He walked away from his musical gift. Which was sad. He was very talented, he just needed training on how to lead. But never let ANYONE tell you what kind of gear you are allowed or not allowed to use! Be respectful, find a solution that works well for everybody, but if some hard-nose dictator try's to control the way you express your gift to your creator, never back down!

Check out this clip of my brother's praise band/worship team playing "Love Reign O'er Me" by the Who at their church.



http://youtu.be/W072Cypo78Q

http://youtu.be/W072Cypo78Q
I've never been to his church, but from what he's told me the acoustics are plugged into D/I's and the electric guitarist plays through a simulator into the board and he uses a powered speaker as his monitor. From the sound of the recording, I don't think volume is a problem with their congregation.

I was setting up on stage one time and our worship leader came over and unplugged my guitar from my amp and plugged it into one of those cube things. I was shocked and had to restrain myself from breaking his arms for touching my gear and the arrogance he was showing. I said "what are you doing?!" he says, "we don't use amps anymore we run everything thru the board". I said, "what?! That's craziness. How do you control your tone?!". Him, "oh the sound man will take care of it". Me,"what?! That makes no sense on any level! That explains why the praise band has sounded like total garbage the last couple months! Your a musician, you should know better than this nonsense!". Him, "well it works for me just fine. That's the way it is now". Me, "well I'm not playing without my amp. I'm the only one that knows what tone I want when. I can't flow or function as a musician without my amp. You can't either. Our worship has lost the passion and drive behind it because you make policies that don't allow the praise team members to flow freely in their gift. This is another one. Plug me back in or I'm packing up and leaving." he did. Church was ready to start. It was not the time or place for such a debate but it just happened. Then he asked to plug my amp into the system, I said sure. But well have to do a sound check and make sure the sound man gets me coming thru just like it's coming out the amp. Then he can blend my volume and I'll turn my amp up a little to monitor myself. I would've preferred micing the amp but there were no extra mic's. So we started playing and every time I turned it up just a touch to do a solo or something the sound man turned me down! AAHHHGH! so I hit my standby switch, unplugged from the board and kept playing. I controlled my volume and blended in and came up a little for the solo's. Afterwards most of the congregation said "I don't know what you did but once I could hear you playing you sounded great!". Point proven. That guy is no longer our leader and no longer plays in any church. He walked away from his musical gift. Which was sad. He was very talented, he just needed training on how to lead. But never let ANYONE tell you what kind of gear you are allowed or not allowed to use! Be respectful, find a solution that works well for everybody, but if some hard-nose dictator try's to control the way you express your gift to your creator, never back down!


Encouragement, inspiration and awesomeness in one post!
Right on!!

Sounds like he'd prefer recorded music. A guitarist means a guitar amp. I don't turn down for anybody ( maybe GOD), but then again I go to a church where musical instruments at all will lead you straight to Hell.